Bible prophecy

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:27 PM

Many other forums Greg have rules about 'vetting' the initial posts of members who turn up apparently totally out of the blue with no history of posting with any reference to the main purpose of the forum

It is possible that this kind of behaviour, whether prozelytising - as some semm to think - or even just encouraging a good ol' verbal punch up for the sheer 'fun' of it is more common on 'open' forums such as mudcat.

I didn't see the OP's 'rant' that Alice referred to in an earlier post but it would also lead me to suspect the latter motive.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:35 PM

This thread is insane. Religion is the opiate of the masses....Karl Marx.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: gnu
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:43 PM

Do some research, eh? First post...

Subject: BS: History of US radical religious right
From: hidigibaugh - PM
Date: 11 Oct 09 - 04:15 PM

From: Riginslinger

Yes, just another example of why it's so important to stamp out the scourge of religion

and so how can we do this ??? .. does this include violence ??

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:49 PM

Well, IMO, if you think you need to resort to/use violence, you have LOST the thread and won't make it.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: GUEST,hidigibaugh
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

QUOTE = This thread is insane. Religion is the opiate of the masses....Karl Marx

COMMENT = . . . . Liberals - Socialists - Atheists - Moral relativists - Environmentalists - Secular Humanists - Anarchists - Unitiarians - New Agers - progressives etc etc .. are just as 'religious' as anyone else ( if not more ) . . . . sorry . . but you can't divorce yourself from religion . . . It's what you believe and simply needs to be defined

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

It's that first post (which is in the other thread) that makes me think the person who started this thread is probably not a troll. And I thought they posed a good question in that first post.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: GUEST,hidigibaugh
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:01 PM

"And I thought they posed a good question in that first post"

Thank you very much =:0]

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:05 PM

Bringing Joy again, are you? Joe...please deal with this. This is a MUSIC site, NOT a religious site. Ask Max if you need to. This is just very OTT.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM

Come on, Joe. By no stretch of the imagination could this thread be classified as anything but BS. I have no objection to the BS section, I regularly contribute to it, but keep this sort of stuff out of the music part, which is (if I understand Max correctly) for discussing folk music.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:56 PM

In North America it's television, the audio-visual media generally (computers, gameboys, Nintendos, cellphones, ipods, etc.), and mass consumerism that are the ruling opiates of the masses. ;-) Religion comes in way behind to those in its overall influence on people.

Then there's alcohol and caffiene and other drugs...also much bigger opiates affecting far more people than organized religion.

Then there's all the political and partisan BS that consumes people's attention and dominates "the news". More opiate for the masses.

And if someone can't see that, it's just because he doesn't want to...because he's so emotionally obsessed with reacting against religion that he can't stop focusing on it to the exclusion of all else...in which case he's become some kind of self-righteous fanatic.

Like a religious fanatic, only the exact opposite mode. ;-)

Such intolerant people are drawn instantly to these threads about religion like flies to shit because it gives them another chance to vent their hatred and their superiority complex. They seek the emotional satisfaction of attacking that which they despise.

As such, they deserve to deal with the very worst and most unreasonable of the religious fanatics who are their mirror-image. Wouldn't it be nice if they ALL went somewhere else to fight over their differences and left the rest of us in peace?

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: jeddy
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 06:05 PM

this thread has appeared below the line on my pc for days now.
so please stop asking for it to be moved. unless my pc is very smart and automaticly puts this thread as bullshit?

all regligion that says i am right and you are wrong, has missed the point IMO.

it seems to me that we all want the same thing, for our life on this wonderful planet of ours.
saftey and harmony.   looking after each other and helping one another in crisis.

what does it matter whether you worship god, jesus, allah, you get the idea.

we don't know for sure what happens to us when we die, so it is all ideas.

i have my faith, you have yours or don't have any, i don't see what yours has got to do with me unless we are having a debate.
it should not be up to someone else to say whether i have lived a good and worthy life or not.
it is between me and my maker, or in my case, myself when i face the truth at the end of this cycle.

let everyone make up their own mind, and judge them on what they DO not what they believe.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:23 PM

hidigibaugh, if you try to define everything as a religion, then the word "religion" itself loses all meaning. {By the way, I notice that you didn't include "conservative" in your little list – I find that a significant omission}

And your statement ". . . a music site that bashes Christians. . . ." {I presume that was you making that statement}

Not so. This is a music site. It's primary purpose is the discussion of folk and traditional music. It does have a section {BS, which stands for "Breeze Shooting," but all too often, it can take on the other meaning} where discussion of matters other than music take place. Mudcat is rather like being at a song fest in someone's (Max's) home. While the singing goes on in the living room, there are often some who may want to take a break from the singing and gather in the kitchen and chat about any number of things. And it is true that there are a few people here who are hard-chargingly anti-religious who rarely miss a chance to leap on their favorite hobby horse, but there are also those of various political or philosophical stripes who do the same thing and often make deadly bores of themselves. There are also a number of quite religious people (including many Christians) who just shrug off the remarks of those few who bash Christians or any other religion, knowing full well that such arguments are a waste of time and lead only to acrimony.

Noting that you have leapt right into a religious blither about Bible prophecy (a controversial and devisive subject even among devout Christian) immediately after coming aboard, one has reason to assume that your primary interest in being here is not an interest in music, but desire on your part to store up treasures in heaven for yourself by saving the sorry souls of all us heathens, pagans, and sinners by leading us all to Christ.

Sorry. I'm afraid you're in the wrong pew.

If you really want to do your Christian duty, I suggest you read what Jesus tells you to do in Matthew 25:35-40, soft-pedal the religious prattle, and go do something worthwhile in the world.

Don Firth

P. S. Furthermore, hidigibaugh, I recommend that you read The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation (Westview Press, 2004). The author, the Reverend Barbara R. Rossing, is a New Testament scholar and an associate professor at the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago. Most revealing indeed. She delineates the whole origin of the "Rapture" idea. Contrary to popular belief, including the beliefs of many who should know better, the Rapture idea does not come from the Bible. No, not even the Book of Revelation. It is a cockamammie idea hatched up in fairly recent times. And it's been quite a financial boon for people like Timothy LeHaye, who've managed to write and sell millions of dollars worth of novels to gullible but not very bright readers of a religious bent. He's storing up his treasures (royalties) right here on earth!

P. P. S. And hidigibaugh, don't make unwarrented assumptions about what my religious beliefs may or may not be. But will say that I believe the Bible verses I cited above are the very core of Christianity and what Jesus was all about.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: olddude
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:35 PM

Don
thank you that is the passage that defines my life always

Dan

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:41 PM

I'm not against religion, in fact I wish I had that faith as it seems to give a lot of comfort to many people.
Why did I just think of Linus in the Pumpkin patch?

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: olddude
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:03 PM

You don't have to be a christian, don't have to believe in anything to understand that this passage is a way to go through this thing called life.

Matthew 25:35-40


35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40" The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:47 PM

Speaking of fat -- I just don't trust it. Rarely ever use the word faithe

I rarely ever say I merely believe anything at all. I will often say, though, that "I think" that something is true.

More often than not, to me, faith and belief is, as I've said before, wishful thinking! As in life after death. When you think about it, the idea that, If you will only believe, it will be made true -- is really grasping at straws -- or cramming for finals.

Art

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:52 PM

sorry for the typos!!

But looking back at it, I think it(Speaking Of Fat) might be a great name for a new NPR radio show.

JOKE!! Please...

Art

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:53 PM

Liberals - Socialists - Atheists - Moral relativists - Environmentalists - Secular Humanists - Anarchists - Unitiarians - New Agers - progressives etc etc .. are just as 'religious' as anyone else ( if not more ) . . . . sorry . . but you can't divorce yourself from religion . . . It's what you believe and simply needs to be defined

Nope, not so much. If you don't believe the earth is flat, it's not abelief. Believing the earth is round, or oblong or a dodecahedron with polka-dots, yes.

Not believing isn't a belief. I prefer not to make up answers when I don't KNOW them and my personal questions are unanswered. I DO believe that people who won't accept beliefs different from their own are assholes, but while that IS a 'belief', I don't think it's religious.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:57 PM

I've always been partial to dodekahedrons, although I spell them with a "kappa." I don't believe in polka dots, though.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:04 PM

Joe, I'm offended. You probably don't believe in stripes either, you fluicitous emgarnist!.
(I gotta go to bed.)

Subject: THE ALIGNMENT OF THE NATIONS
From: hidigibaugh
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:14 PM

ALIGNMENT OF THE NATIONS:

(IsraelNN.com) US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog & Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that potential conflict.
Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel).

On one side were:

Israel
United States
Britain
France
Germany

On the other were:

Iran
Russia
China
Syria
North Korea

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Alice
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:17 PM

better put on your tinfoil hats, folks!!

Subject: Dear Don
From: hidigibaugh
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:21 PM

QUOTE = "the Rapture idea does not come from the Bible. No, not even the Book of Revelation. It is a cockamammie idea hatched up in fairly recent times."

I Thessalonians 4
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever . . . Paul

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:24 PM

But what about the mole people?
EVERYBODY forgets the mole people.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: olddude
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:28 PM

Anyway I hope the end does come soon. I have a ton of taxes to pay and 2 mortgages so the banks will get what they deserve ... nothing ...

my time training special forces and Navy Seals .. well I will probably survive a bit longer than most ...

And well I think all and all God is not that unhappy with me ... maybe he is but somehow I think we are ok ...

so bring it on

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:46 PM

Well, Hidigbaugh, that's what I mean about weird extrapolations from scripture - especially from the Book of Revelation, but also from other apocalyptic references. The Bible doesn't give specific details or name names, but yet these wacky speculators seem to have all the details down. I can't buy it.

Remember what's said about not adding one jot or tittle to the Bible. Well, the so-called born-again Christians do it, and then just can't buy it when others disagree with their so-called "literal" interpretation.

The Bible is full of poetry and metaphors and other beautiful language that is very difficult to understand - there is no such thing as poetry and metaphors that can be interpreted literally.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:48 PM

"this thread has appeared below the line on my pc for days now."

Mine too.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Alice
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:52 PM

The thread was started yesterday afternoon.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Janie
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:54 PM

Well, at least for one day. The thread ain't been around for days. It was moved below the line a few hours after it was started, yesterday.

Peace and light to all ya'll Christians, Muslims, Jews, Heathens, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, et. al., and also to Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Janie
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:55 PM

Ah, Alice. "Great minds think alike." *grin*

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:55 PM

Time flies when . . . .

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Janie
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:07 PM

LOL, Peace.

Whatever gets you thru the night....         John Lennon

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Alice
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:13 PM

How ironic.
Clash Of The Gods is on the History channel right now.
This episode is on Thor.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:27 PM

The Rapture was an invention of John Nelson Darby, one of the leaders of the Plymouth Brethren, in the mid-eighteen hundreds. He "cherry-picked" a bunch of disconnected verses from the Bible and put them together in a collage of verses that "proved" the doctrine that he was trying to sell (this is a common practice of what might be regarded as "religious con men"), including the verses you quote, but also a great deal from the Book of Daniel--taken out of context.

He also drew on a "visions" of a 15 year-old Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald.

I take it, hidigibaugh, that you are Christian. Since I undoubtedly have no credentials that you would find acceptable, let me refer you to some writings on "The Rapture" by fellow Christians:   THIS and THIS.

No doubt this will meet with your complete rejection. Nevertheless, there it is for your perusal.

The best, most comprehensive, theologically, and academically based refutation is the one I cited above by the Rev. Barbara R. Rossing.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, if the Battle of Armageddon and the defeat of the Anti-Christ is to take some seven years, then they'd better get cracking, because according some interpretations of the enigmatic verses of Nostradamus, alleged predictions based on the Mayan calendar, and the panicky ideas of some folks addicted to being really ignorant of the basics of astronomy, the world is supposed to come to an end on December 21st, 2012. How? The adherents to this prediction can't seem to agree, but it involves such things as the earth flipping over (north and south poles changing places), the sun going supernova, and the solar system passing through the galactic equator, although we are, as of this date, some 110 light years to the "north" of this completely arbitrary "equator" and we are only traveling at about nine miles per second essentially parallel to the imaginary line. We're also supposed to be bombarded with ionically charged meteorites which will ignite the earth's atmosphere.

Looks like a rough ride ahead, kids. I don't know about you, but I'm gonna go have myself a cold beer.

P. P. S. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, 'cuz I'm the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley!

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:41 AM

Hmmmmmm.....This could get interesting..........(just readin')

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Stower
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:35 AM

I get worried when something that someone reads in a book, which has no basis in fact and has zero evidence to back it up, which makes unsubstantiatable claims about the future and links unconnected things in the past, seems to someone more real than the actual world we live in.

In the Gospels, Jesus and his followers clearly believed the world would end very soon. Jesus states that would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. He was wrong.

Jesus claimed that those who help others also help him. Agape is a good notion for living a life. But subtract Jesus from the equation - leaving only that we should help others - and nothing of substance is lost. Unless you believe that an entire eternity of excruciating pain is a good punishment for a loving God to give to those who fail to meet his standards.

Or you could go to John's Gospel's Jesus, very different from the synoptics. This Jesus was more concerned with belief in him as a man-deity than with anything else; "No one comes to the Father except by me". So an outstanding Hindu like Mohandas Gandhi goes to hell for not being a Christian but some fundamentalist Christian who never did a thing for anyone except hector them into being 'saved' goes to heaven?

We don't need supernaturalist beliefs to live well. They just complicate things. We just need to live well.

Listen to Chris Wood's 'Come Down, Jehovah'. That says it all.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:48 AM

How ironic.
Clash Of The Gods is on the History channel right now.
This episode is on Thor.

The God of War rode out one day
Upon his handsome filly
"I'm Thor!" he cried
The horse replied
"You forgot your thaddle, thilly"


DC

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:21 AM

That quote from I Thessalonians is interesting. Given that communication at the time was so difficult, and the rapture is so significant, it seems slightly mean of Paul not to let the Romans, Ephesians and all the rest know. And as for it slipping past the Gospel writers, well ...

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:34 AM

What irritates me is the usurping of words like "belief" and "faith" by those who believe in some supreme entity. This is both ignorant and arrogant. It takes just as much faith and belief to be an athiest. My faith and belief are as strong as most believers in a god - perhaps stronger as there is no bribe of eternal life. It has been built on over 50 years of reading, discussion, thought and meditation - and plain old expertience.

It is also wrong to asssume that all athiests have the same beliefs, just as it would be wrong to class all theists, be they christian, jewish, muslim or whatever, as all having the same beliefs.

But, then, perhaps I'm wasting my time because, as Olddude says, after assuring us that he respects other people's opinions..."Take your best shot cause not one of us care what you think".

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:44 AM

Does God exist?

Theism - God exists!
Atheism - God does not exist!
Agnosticism - It is impossible to know whether or not God exists.
Ignosticism - Sorry, what was the question?

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: olddude
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:47 AM

leveller
I was wrong to say that to you and I apologize. You were wrong to tell me to shove it right before that when I was only making my point.

however I do have a temper it is one of my faults ... I do apologize, and do respect your belief system. I ask that you do the same ok

Dan

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:04 AM

Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil-

An it harm none, do what ye will.

So mote it be.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:15 AM

Thanks, OD - mutual respect!

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: olddude
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:22 AM

leveller
Thank you my friend

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:55 AM

hidigibaugh

'The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel).

On one side were:

Israel
United States
Britain
France
Germany

On the other were:

Iran
Russia
China
Syria
North Korea '


************

Aren't you making a fundamental basic error here?


None of those political entities [countries] existed when the bible was written/ being compiled.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Stower
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM

Yes, Mr Happy, you're right, of course. Hidigibaugh will, going on past form, make more insubstantiated claims and simply insult anyone who disagrees to avoid actually engaging with them.

As I say above, "unsubstantiatable claims about the future and links unconnected things in the past". It's funny how prophecies about the future are only ever made *retrospectively*, when both the events they 'foretell' and the alleged prophecy about those events are *both* in the past. It's like me doing a card trick, predicting what card you will pick only when you have handed me the card: 'Yes, I knew it would be said card'. You wouldn't be convinced.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:21 AM

Suibhne - like OD I have my beliefs, but I hope I don't shove them down peoples' throats.

You do make it rather obvious though, Bryn - which is cool by me, as I say, though I might worry about the implied level of intolerance when a professed neo-Pagan accuses a Christian of God-bothering, whatever the fundamentalist stripe of the latter.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:10 AM

Doug Chadwick, I Googled and found several examples of your Thor poem, but didn't find more - are there other verses? It's a kick!

I've often said that fundamentalist Christianity is the State Religion of the US - even atheists see religion in fundamentalist terms, and then reject it. But many religious people aren't concerned with the doctrinaire, "I have the truth and you don't" view of religion. These others see religion as an exploration, as more about asking and exploring questions than it is about possessing and controlling the 'Truth.' Most of the major religions were founded on some form of the Golden Rule ("do unto others") and a seeking of some power greater than the members themselves. As time went on, many adherents took the easy (mindless) path and turned to a fundamentalist obsession with possession of Truth and condemnation of all who did not share their Truth. But if you look into mysticism, you'll find that the mystics of all religions are remarkably similar in their gentleness and open-mindedness, and that all are quite different from the fundamentalist stereotype.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:06 PM

Stower, you said that "In the Gospels, Jesus and his followers clearly believed the world would end very soon. Jesus states that would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. He was wrong."

Hmmm. Well, it depends on how you interpret what they were saying. I think what Jesus was predicting was the end of not "the world" in the sense of the whole planet...or human societies all over the planet. I think what he was most likely predicting was the end of the Jewish world in Judea...the fall of Jerusalem...the destruction of the Temple, etc. That's what it looks like to me when I read his reputed statements in the New Testament.

If so, his prediction was spot on. That "world" (the traditional world of the Hebrew nation and all its basic assumptions about its own permanence and importance) DID end very soon. It ended within the lifetime of many of his disciples when the Romans besieged Jerusalem, took the city by storm, destroyed the Temple, massacred the garrison, and scattered the survivors of the Jewish nation hither and yon.

That was definitely the end of the comfy and seemingly permanent world that the Jewish people in Judea had known since the end of the Babylonian captivity.

It's pretty grandiose to expand such a prediction to include the entire world in our time...but people in later eras do tend to expand such ancient predictions to fit their own idea of "the world" because it satisfies some kind of emotional need they have.

Jesus would not have had to be clairvoyant or to be "the Son of God" to make such a prediction. He would have just needed a good understanding of the politics of his time. The Jews and Romans were clearly on a collision course that was going to soon lead to total war...and the Romans, given their superb military organization and strength, would undoubtedly win that war in the end.

****

Now, there's a further dimension to various other prophetic stuff that's in Revelations and elsewhere about the destruction of "Babylon", "the Great Whore", "the Great City" and so on....and I believe it referred to the fall of Rome. They couldn't say "Rome" openly in those texts without being arrested for it, however, so they said "Babylon" instead. They used a number of symbolic names as code for "Rome".

This prediction also was eventually fullfilled, and Rome did finally fall into decadence and weakness and was plundered by barbarian invasions from the north, thus ending the Western Roman Empire and bringing a very definite end to that world (the Roman world). The Eastern Roman Empire in Constantinople fell at a considerably later date.

***

Those are far more likely scenarios for the Bible predictions than extrapolating them all the way to the present day and trying to twist them around to fit modern countries like the USA, Russia, China, etc.

***

Still there may be some further echo to the whole thing that comes forth in our time. It's possible, I suppose. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: Bible prophecy
From: SharonA
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM

Little Hawk sez: "Stower, you said that 'In the Gospels, Jesus and his followers clearly believed the world would end very soon. Jesus states that would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. He was wrong.'

Hmmm. Well, it depends on how you interpret what they were saying. I think what Jesus was predicting was the end of not 'the world' in the sense of the whole planet...or human societies all over the planet. I think what he was most likely predicting was the end of the Jewish world in Judea...the fall of Jerusalem...the destruction of the Temple, etc. That's what it looks like to me when I read his reputed statements in the New Testament."


Hmm, hmmmm. Don't forget that the four Gospels were written during and after the Roman siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. It was very easy for the Gospel writers to say then that Jesus had made predictions about the end of that particular "world" -- so were they simply making up those supposed "predictions", or were they putting that "spin" on the words Jesus said in order to make it appear that he was talking about the fall of Jerusalem?

Remember also that, after the fall, the Romans were the conquering rulers so any Christian who talked openly about Jesus' predictions of entire human societies (such as Roman society) being destroyed was likely to be executed as a seditionist. Therefore, any writings about Jesus' predictions of such destruction had to be coded and couched in oblique terms, in order to save the necks of the writers and the readers/hearers of those words.