BS: Two cultures divided by a common language

Subject: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sapper82
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:49 AM

OK, I've just paid for something over the internet and had to enter the "EXPIRATION" date of my credit card. Expiration?? Don't thewy mean "Expiry"?
Same thing with Burglars. Over here we get "Burgled" by them. 'Merkins it seems get "Burglarised"!!
Any other Gems????

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Crystal
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:52 AM

we have Aluminium (al'u'min'yum) they have Aluminium (al'oo'min'um). and don't get me started about American spellings of scientific words (it's a latin root people it's SUPPOSED to be spelt like that)!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,Dáithí Ó Geanainn
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:07 AM

I live in the UK but drive a Jeep. In the Owner's Manual it gives advise on driving in both off road and on road environments.
It talks about "on-pavement driving"..which if i did would be both highly dangerous and totally illegal....

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:28 AM

Mike Harding used to have a story in which he almost made a woman in an American pastry shop choke to death, when he went back in and asked for another Danish because he'd just lost his cherry in the street.

But really, although I'll fight tooth and nail for the proper use of apostrophes and the like, I can't see any problem with the 'Mercans spelling things differently than we do over here in Yurp. Language changes, and mostly they're just making the spelling more logical.

Though I did use to wonder about a Jim Stafford song in which he talked about "tying a rubber band around my fanny"...

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:29 AM

Divorced parents in the US get all the fun - they get "visitation" rights (rather than "visiting" rights). It conjures up images of ghosts etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sapper82
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:31 AM

GUEST,Bainbo
Did you hear Mike Harding's story about a tour over there when they had stopped for yet another burger in a diner where the waitresses were dressed as "native Americans"?
He says he looked at the burger in disgust and made the comment, "God, I could just murder an Indian!"

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: frogprince
Date: 26 May 05 - 10:31 AM

I almost choked the first time I read about Holmes waking Watson up in the morning: "Sorry to knock you up, old chap"... For Amaericans, it sheds a whole new light on their relatioship...

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 10:34 AM

smoking a fag sounds rather hostile to me

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 10:35 AM

Using the Loo?    I have an Uncle Lou that would be rather pissed off if he were pissed on

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Cool Beans
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:20 PM

That would probably land Uncle Lou's assailant in THE hospital, as we say in America. He'd just be in hospital in Canada and Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:31 PM

color-colour
'hospital' THE hospital

over here we leave out unnecessary letters.....over there you leave out entire words.

(well...you only keep extraneous letters in when writing them....when speaking they get lost in truly creative fashion! *grin*)

Worcestershire..Cholomondeley

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:38 PM

I just read that the spelling in the US was officially changed to aluminium in 1990. I didn't know that.   But did you realize that 'aluminum' is the earlier spelling of the two forms?

Interesting History of Alumin(i)um

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: jonm
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:41 PM

Ozzy Osbourne tells the story of going out very late at night in LA and finding the only bar open, full of strangely-dressed male customers, lots of leather and moustaches.

"I need a beer and twenty fags" was probably not the best thing to say.....

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:53 PM

Sapper82 said, in part:

'Merkins it seems get "Burglarised"!!

You're mistaken, Sapper82. 'Merkins get burglarized!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:33 PM

At The University of New Brunswick (points deducted for leaving out "The"), one of my engineering professors would not allow use of "the" in our reports or in our presentations. This practise was a bit difficult to get used to. However, continued practice promoted far better prose and speech.

I have a question for you Brits. I am the only person I know, other than my parents, who says, "I will try to do whatever.", instead of the commonly accepted, "I will try and do whatever." Is this bastardization of grammar acceptable where English is English?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sixtieschick
Date: 26 May 05 - 01:50 PM

If one student asked another to borrow his rubber in the USA they'd get kicked out of class. BTW, the bloke, aka person, who is referring to us as 'merkins ought to look up the meaning of the word, "merkin." Unless that's what you mean to call us, that is. In that case, you might get kicked out of the bar, I mean pub.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:14 PM

What is a "merkin", sixtieschick? I can't find it in mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:16 PM

I'm not sure if I would ever want to be "gobsmacked".   I'm not even sure of the spelling.

What is wrong with the word "the". Short and to the point. I'm assuming that the word "the" is not used when it refers to a destination, which is why countries, states and cities usually do not receive "the" in front of the name. The exceptions are "The" Bronx and "The" Vatican.

I think we get too hung up on language and being "proper".   Language evolves. Ain't it the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:42 PM

"What is wrong with the word "the". Short and to the point. I'm assuming that the word "the"..."

"What is wrong with "the". Short and concise. I'm assuming "the"..."

See?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 02:53 PM

gnu, it has a female aspect to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:04 PM

Mmmmmfffff!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:08 PM

Gnu, to put it delicately, it is a wig for the feminent pudenda!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:10 PM

"Feminine"

Dave Oesterriech

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:14 PM

I won a bit with an Aussie about how we 'yanks' spell 'aluminum'. Ebbie, they can't change how they spell it officially. 'Ain't' no
'official' with that kind of power.

Europeans drive me crazy with their use of commas where we use points and points where we use commas. F'r'instance, 1,000,000.00 in US is: 1.000.000,00 in Euroland.

And try telling an American to 'keep your pecker up!' You'll get either punched out or a diatribe on how well the viagra works!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:21 PM

Oh, you were talking about 'merkin". As in the other case, I'll just stifle myself again for now. Time to fuel the machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:30 PM

"The official change in the US to the –um spelling happened quite late: the American Chemical Society only adopted it in 1925. The International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) officially standardised on aluminium in 1990, though this has done nothing, of course, to change the way people in the US spell it for day to day purposes."


The Official Word

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Cool Beans
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:37 PM

These chemheads can't even spell "standardiZed" and they're telling us how to spell aluminuminum. The noive!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 May 05 - 03:44 PM

There are two animals whose names are spelled the same on both sides of the pond but pronounced differently.

Jaguar and hereford.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:07 PM

In America, during your week or two off work, when you may or may not take a trip, you are on "vacation" (not on "holiday").

A "holiday" here is a single day when something is celebrated and most people enjoy a day off work; e.g., Christmas, Independence Day, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:14 PM

As to the article "the", I've been bemused for a long time about how UKers will refer to "going to hospital" or "to university", without the use of the word "the". I used to find this strange.

And then I realized that we United Statesers do the same thing. If I get caught for a crime, I "go to jail (gaol)", not "to the jail". And other examples.

It all comes down to the fact that language is as language does. It's not required to be logical.

I have an excellent book around here (whose name and author, I blush to admit, I can't think of) which says, in essence, that there are no languages; there are only dialects. There is no tight, definable, authoritative body of speech which is English. Rather, English is a sort of umbrella word, covering a great body of related dialects, each of which is "correct" and "grammatical" in its own fashion, in its own milieu. There are dialects within this "English" grouping (and "American" subgrouping) which have academic favor, but they are still dialects, and only a part of the vast mosaic of speech we call "English".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:36 PM

What gnu??????

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sixtieschick
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:10 PM

To a Yank, when someone is "redundant" it's an insult that has nothing to do with being unemployed.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,padgett (at home)
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:26 PM

Well goodness, Yorkshire has t'tahn (to the town) and Lancastrians
th'tahn (to the town) no doubt the Lancs will pick me up on this, which is basically dropping the 'the'.

Dialects can get very confusing such as 'tintintin'

which means 'it isn't in the tin' ~ i've probably started something again lol

Ray Padgett (tongue in cheek)!!

try 'werrtagoin' 'am goinoam'

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: robomatic
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:29 PM

Ebbie that was very interesting about 'aluminum'. I guess we Yanks just try to pronounce it whichever way bugs the Brits more. I kinda hoped that's why 'W' says "nuke-you-ler" but I 'spect that's just his style in public.

I remember some ancient variety TV show doing as a skit a Cockney tourist in New York City trying to talk to a Brooklyn cabbie.

There's also a big split between the US use of thousand, million, billion, and trillion. Europeans do some weird kind of split:

US               Euro
million          million
billion          1000 million or 'milliard'
trillion         billion

Doctor Math explains it here.

Apparently it's another case of us Yanks not larnin' 'nuff o that there latin language.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sapper82
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:46 PM

I wonder how Guest would feel about eating faggots?
Usually served with Mashed tatties, thick gravy and tunrips.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:28 PM

Ron: Did you mean "What gnu??????" or "What, gnu??????"?

Just teasin... I find that the sentence written without the use of the word "the" is much more to the point.

Of course, one cannot delete use of "the" completely. His objective was to make us think about each clause and the whole composition by focusing on the most common word in our language.

Next exercise was to delete the use of the word "that", for example, "I find the sentence written without the use of the word "the" is much more to the point." An engineering professor he was.

BTW, did anyone answer my question about "try and do" or did I just miss the answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: jaze
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:46 PM

There's THE Netherlands

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:13 PM

We visited a textile museum somewhere in the midlands and Jerry had a conversation with a lady who was demonstrating a loom.

To us, the conversation sounded like this:

Jerry: That's a dobby loom, isn't it?
Woman: No, it's a dobby loom.

We later figured out that, to her, the conversation must have sounded like this:

Jerry: That's a Derby loom, isn't it?
Woman: No, it's a dobby loom.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bainbo
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:39 PM

gnu - part of my job, in the UK, involves text editing. Whenever any of our writers uses the try word, they write "try and do it." So that's the form in common usage.

I always have to amend it to "try to do it" because that's the correct usage. But the other form is so widespread that it can't be long before "try and" becomes correct.

That's the way language evolves, I suppose, although there's usually a loss of nuance on the way, such as "disinterested", which is now used to mean "uninterested". In this case, though, I can't see any such loss.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:07 PM

Nowdays you don' embarque or debarque, you onplane and deplane. I have also heard deplaning.

I was once unlucky enough to work in a British company taken over by General Electric. It took me some time to get over all the three and four letter memonics being used. I jokingly asked if there was a GE-English dictionary, sure enough there was.

GE inmates call their logo 'The meatball' a small circle with an old styalised fan blade with the copper plate GE script across it. Our US brethren in the Co. would talk about exchanging meatballs when giving one another a business card.

We pointed out that in the UK a meatball was a faggot; therefore we should be exchanging faggots. A look of horror passed across many a face. In France a meatball is a boulez, 'faire un boulez' in French also means a cock up.

In the end we just refered to it as the cats bum 'cos that was that it really looked like to our wee twisted English minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:11 PM

What a pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:26 PM

"Rather, English is a sort of umbrella word, covering a great body of related dialects, each of which is "correct" and "grammatical" in its own fashion, in its own milieu. There are dialects within this "English" grouping (and "American" subgrouping) which have academic favor, but they are still dialects, and only a part of the vast mosaic of speech we call "English". Dave O

Ah, I get it, Dave. Kind of like when an instrument is in tune with itself but it can't readily play with anyone else?


Where does it end, gnu? "Next exercise was to (delete 'the' use of (delete 'the') word "that", for example, "I find ( delete 'the' ) sentence written without (delete 'the') use of ( delete 'the' ) word "the" is much more to (delete 'the' ) point."

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,Bunnahabhain, via back door
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:20 PM

Embarque, and Disenbarque, surely?

Where does the difference between a spoken dialect (as per bev and gerry, and GUEST, padget, above), and a written one become important?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Alba
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:29 PM

In Scotland I used to write out the 'Cheques' for my monthly bills.
I had a nice 'Check' skirt I wore a lot but I kept my 'Plaid' skirt for special occasions.
Here in the US I write out the 'Checks' to pay my monthly Bills,
and I have a 'plaid' upholstered Sofa that looks remarkably similar to the 'check' skirt I used to wear a lot (that was reason I picked the fabric)
I still however keep my 'Plaid' skirt for special occassions..
Cheques..I never use them here..***BG***
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:06 PM

In English English we have certain words which never seem to be used in the US, plus the accenting of the particular words can make it polite or impolite e.g. bollocks (testicles for the US catters)

'Bollocks' said mildy to oneself, one has made a slight faux pas
'Bollocks' said heavily to oneself, one has made a slightly larger foxes pass
'Bolllllocks', lengthened delivery to oneself, it has happened again
'Bollocks' short delivery, sir you are in error
'BOLLOCKS' shouted, sir I disagree with you strongly
'Bollocks' muttered under the breath, my dear wife I cannot agree but nor can I say so loudly
'Boll -pause-OCKS!' you are speaking rubbish

We also have lots of other Anglo-Saxon words which never seem to have taken root in the US.

'Taking the piss'
'W****r' Clue, rhymes with 'oil tanker' (seagull rhyming slang)

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:46 PM

well...that reminds me to finally ask: I usually 'get' most references, even when I don't use them, but I have seen "taking the piss" used here many, many times, but even in context I have never been sure exactly how to translate it. (In the US, we may not use it because it is so close to "taking a piss" ...but maybe we simply have another expression already...

Could someone elucidate? And what mught be the origins of such a non-obvious expression?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: sixtieschick
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:00 AM

There's a whole world of fantastic food names that could fill a few volumes. For starters:

One one side of the Altlantic:

bubble and squeak
bangers and mash
spotted dick

And on the other side:

apple brown Betty/apple pan dowdy
blueberry buckle/blueberry grunt
pigs in blankets

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:42 AM

Scottish catters will know what a western Pennsylvania native means when she says redd up. But you may be a bit confused when we call someone a neb. In this part of the U.S. it's an inquisitive person.
Scots took Fort Duquesne away from the French and were immediately attracted to the region's attrocious weather and sloping terrain.
Jean Redpath told the story of telling a hotel clerk to knock her up the next morning.

Oh, in some parts of the U.S. if you order tea, you'll get it iced, unless you specifically ask for hot. Mother had quite a surprise with her breakfast at a South Carolina hotel.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Splott Man
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:02 AM

In the US "momentarily" means "soon"
In the UK it means "for a brief period"

In this part of Wales, "after" means "later" as in "I'll do it after"
"Now" means "in a minute or two" as in "I'll do it now"
I've even heard "I'll do it now in a minute"

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:15 AM

As to the article "the", I've been bemused for a long time about how UKers will refer to "going to hospital" or "to university", without the use of the word "the". I used to find this strange.

NO!NO!NO!
"In hospital" and "In THE hospital" mean two completely different things.

"In Hospital" implies "is a patient", just as "at university" implies "is a student"
"In THE hospital" or "in THE university" merely describes the persons location, NOT his/ her activity.

eg "My mum is in THE hospital visiting my Gran"
or "Uncle Joe is in THE hospital. He has to carry out an emergency operation on a baby"
or Dad is at THE university today, he is re-tiling a roof there.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:15 AM

The differences are all the fault of we English, it is our fault because it is OUR language and we made a bollocks of teaching it to you Americans, or perhaps you were incapable of understanding.

THE is the definate article, use it as such.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:33 AM

Definite article.

Or were you just taking the piss? *grin*
(Being facetious, taking the Mickey, pulling our legs)

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 05 - 05:56 AM

Ebbie... you have earned an "A". I would have given you an "A+", but, because you have questioned the authority of the professor, points have been deducted for insolence. Don't feel this grading is harsh. I was "F"'d in a Statistical Theory course for pissing off the prof with my humour, ah, er, rather, irreverence. Irreverence sounds much better when you "F" a student. Especially when THE student scores THE highest in THE class on THE final exam. THAT REALLY sucked EH.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:10 AM

On another thread, I used the word 'touched', as in 'touched in the head'. What side of the pond is this from?

Any others? Like frothy, gone, long gone, cracked, on the pipe...

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:16 AM

Some words seem to be deliberately designed to mislead. 'Presently', according to context, can be used to mean 'now, this very minute' or'not now, but in a little while'. When I was a small child, if I asked my mother to buy me an ice cream she usually said 'presently'. I learnt by bitter experience that it didn't mean 'now' and it didn't mean 'soon'. There was absolutely no hope in 'presently'.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:54 AM

No Bainbo, just trying to annoy our colonial cousins.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 05 - 08:00 AM

Uh-huh, like, fer sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:19 AM

THE THE THE THE

THE word feels good so use it!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:01 AM

Keep in mind that mangling the ENGLISH language ain't our doing. The people who came here to settle the new country were ENGLISH, speaking the ENGLISH language. Eventually THEY - those ENGLISHmen and ENGLISHwomen - decided to use it-and pronounce it- differently.

A few years ago as I was giving a museum tour to a young Swiss couple, the young woman said, I don't want to be rude but why do Americans move so much? In my country, we live on the same land that my great, great grandparents lived on.

I suddenly had an inspiration. I said, Because we are the offspring of you people who didn't stay home.

For the first time, she said, she understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bill D
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:24 AM

well, it still didn't compute, I looked it up!

TAKE THE PISS

[Q] From Stephen Balkam: "Could you throw some light on to the origin of taking the piss? My (English) wife seemed to think it meant actually being made to drink someone else's urine."

[A] Nothing literal about this one, you will be pleased to hear. It's usually said that the phrase derives from an older one, piss-proud, which refers to having an erection when waking up in the morning, which is usually attributed to a full bladder (proud here being an obvious pun on its senses of something raised or projecting and of something in which one may take satisfaction).

It's first recorded, as so many such indecorous expressions are, in Francis Grose's A Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue; in the second edition of 1788 he wrote: "Piss-proud, having a false erection. That old fellow thought he had an erection, but his — was only piss-proud; said of any old fellow who marries a young wife".

This developed into a figurative sense of somebody who had an exaggerated idea of his own importance. So to take the piss is to deflate somebody, to disabuse them of their mistaken belief that they are special. It's not recorded before the beginning of the twentieth century."

--------------------------------------------------------------

"taking the piss n. This is the most common term we have in British English to describe making fun of someone, e.g. "Andy fell down the stairs on the way into the pub last night, and everyone spent the entire night taking the piss out of him". Contrary to what one might assume, it doesn't involve a complex system of tubes or a bicycle pump."


So, I see that it is relatively late arriving, as these expressions go, and it seems to me a bit of a strech to make it fit what it is supposed to convey. It is not an expression I would USE, even if I lived where it was common.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:56 AM

Bill D, those old guys may be just "proud". *G* (My father was a horse trainer and on occasion he acquired a 'proud' gelding.)

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 May 05 - 01:33 PM

GUEST Bunnabhain (sp?) said:

Where does the difference between a spoken dialect (as per bev and gerry, and GUEST, padget, above), and a written one become important?

Quite often a spoken dialect has almost no existence in writing. Instead, dialect speakers use the "official" dialect (e.g. High German) to write things.

Then along comes a writer who revolutionizes the culture by actually writing his poetry, novel, etc. in his native dialect. Think Dante Alighieri, in The Divine Comedy, which is credited with establishing Italian as a "real" language rather than just a vulgate Latin.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Raedwulf
Date: 27 May 05 - 04:11 PM

For those wondering about "the", in English usage remember, as Eric says, it is the definite article. 'Going to the hospital' implies that there is only one hospital. In general, English usage will either use 'going to hospital' ('going to a hospital somewhere'), or 'going to the local hospital' (there is only one local hospital, you'll know which one it is).

Similarly, 'going to Uni' is non-specific - someone is going to a university somewhere. 'Going to the University' (notice the difference in capitalisation) implies that the listener knows which "The..." is referred to , given that there are many universities.

'Going to jail' works in exactly the same way - 'going to be imprisoned in a jail somewhere'. 'Going to the jail' implies knowledge of which jail you're headed for.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: robomatic
Date: 27 May 05 - 04:37 PM

I used to notice the English misuse of the definite article, i.e. leaving it out when we use it and the other way round.

Then I took several years of Russian, a language I adore.

Russians have NO definite article whatsoever. They manage just fine without it.

So I've become liberal. The English can jolly well do what suits 'em.

HOWEVER. I had a nightmare not long ago where I was organizing an alternative music library of my favorite CDs for a Russian student radio station. I was trying to explain to the bright eyed young russki studyenti the group "The The" and I was at a loss for words!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: mandoleer
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:21 PM

How about toad in the hole for another bit of food?
You can get language problems within very short distances. I told a girlfriend from near Wigan the Liverpool joke about the moggie sitting outside the Mersey Tunnel saying, 'No matter how big yez are, I'll get yez when yer come out!' She looked blank. I thought for a moment, and asked her what was sitting outside the tunnel. Her reply was 'a mouse', which I had just remembered is the meaning of moggie in the Wigan area. In Liverpool, about 20 miles away, it's a cat.
And then they had to change all the notices on the new automatic level crossings on the railways in the UK, because someone from the south had worded them. 'Wait while lights flash' was OK to a southerner, and meant if the lights were flashing you should stay put. However, in the North (especially in Yorkshire), it meant wait if the lights weren't flashing, and to go when they did. Woops!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 May 05 - 11:50 PM

Two students from different parts of the U.S. were sitting in a hallway at Ohio University, just a few feet away from me, some 30 years ago. Knowing that they were facing a long wait the male asked, "Want to play hangman?"
The girl answered, "I don't know how to play hangman, but I'll play hang the butcher with you." Then she drew a series of lines in her notebook for the letters, and a stick figure gallows for the rather macabre guessing game that is called hangman in some states and hang the butcher in others.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Boab
Date: 28 May 05 - 01:33 AM

"aluminum", "cadmum" "strontum", "uranum", "barum"; none of them got like that 'cuz some American official just couldn't spell----did they???
Och! We Scots cannae criticise; we're the bunch who call liquorice "alicreesh"!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 May 05 - 02:59 AM

Hey Boab, what's a futtret ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Gurney
Date: 28 May 05 - 03:15 AM

I've realised that I've been using two spellings. If it's a computer program, I spell it like that, and if it's theatre, (theater) I spell it programme, as it should be. *Grin.*

I'm never going to spell common with one M, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 05 - 04:01 AM

Anybody planning a holiday hanging round The Broads?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 May 05 - 07:18 AM

Wasn't there an American, just post independence, who promoted lots of alternative forms and spellings, to help differentiate between the old and new countries? I can't remember who it was, but either they succeeded to some extent, or they were fameous for something else.....

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: HuwG
Date: 28 May 05 - 07:39 AM

Something that GUEST,Bunnahabhain, via back door wrote earlier in this thread ...



Embarque, and Disenbarque, surely?


Now, I'd always spelled it, "embark" and disembark. That got me thinking, is there, "embrig", "emyacht", "emketch", and so on for all varieties of tall ship rig and construction ?

Apparently, "embark" (correct spelling, I hope) comes from the french embarquer, make a voyage aboard a sailing vessel, which in turn comes from the latin barca a sailing ship.

(Somebody with more nautical knowledge will probably be able to enlighten me as to how "barque" came to refer specifically to square-rigged sailing vessels with fore-and-aft rig on the mizzen mast.)

Im military usage only, I have met "embus" and "debus" (referring to lorries or armoured personnel carriers), and "emplane" and "deplane" referring to aircraft. I note that the latter usage is never met in the airline industry; they always use "board" and "leave the aircraft".

I don't know why the military make such jargon standard speech (to the extent that Senior NCO's pretended to look baffled when told, "Get on the 4-tonners", and then made a great show of enlightenment when told to "embus"). I recall an exercise where someone had used much initiative and was using a van with sliding side doors to demonstrate the drills for getting on and off a Lynx helicopter. One annoying character kept refusing to emplane, "Er, it's a Honda Acti, sir", or embus. "F***ing get on!" plus a well-applied boot, did the trick.


****

When the "stinger", an extendable spiked strip which punctured the tyres of cars driven by people fleeing the Law, was first used in the UK, the instruction manual said, "Deploy across pavement ..." After a few unsuccessful attempts to apprehend criminals this way, it was realised that this meant, "Deploy across road ,,,"


In the aftermath of a coup in Africa, a journalist noticed that scowling troops stopped all the cars on a main road, ordered the passengers to get out and then told them to remove their hats and shoes. They inspected these, and then handed them back. The hack asked why they were doing this. The Corporal in charge said, "We got orders to stop all cars, and inspect all bonnets and boots". The hack explained that this was officer-speak for "trunks and hoods".


Some other vehicle parts which differ over the Atlantic:

      UK               US
  
    bumper           fender
   [panel beaters]  [body and fender shop]
    windshield       windscreen
    silencer         muffler
  

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 May 05 - 09:52 AM

America                         England
Mr President                     Seriously derranged git


eric

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 05 - 12:51 PM

HuwG, I realize it was just a slip of the finger - but you have windshield and windscreen backward.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 28 May 05 - 08:35 PM

UK boot
US trunk

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 28 May 05 - 08:40 PM

UK - May I help you?

US - What the fuck are you lookin at?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 May 05 - 10:42 PM

Bunnahabhain:

The great American dictionary maker (whose name is celebrated in the titles of numberless dictionaries to this day) was Nathaniel (?) Webster.

He did his work, I believe, in the early 1800s (1805 or so?). He did have national identity in his mind as he created his dictionary, but was genuinely trying to regularize spelling conventions. Like his great English predecessor, Dr. Samuel Johnson, he was not above impressing his personal foibles and prejudices upon the work.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Boab
Date: 29 May 05 - 02:54 AM

--Eric the Red---Ah ken whit a "whittrick" is, but yer "futtret"'s got me dumfooner't. Guess--an Aiberdeen ferret?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 May 05 - 05:22 AM

Spot on Boab.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 05 - 10:07 PM

"The great American dictionary maker (whose name is celebrated in the titles of numberless dictionaries to this day) was Nathaniel (?) Webster."

Noah.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 05 - 10:10 PM

Bierce: "The Devil's Dictionary".

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 May 05 - 10:41 PM

Tonight, my wife scarffed down a wedge. Or was it a hoagie? Or a Hero? Or a submarine? Or a grinder? They're all the same. It was a Philly Steak wedge.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 30 May 05 - 04:58 AM

I was told by a friend from Ireland that if you say "Do you want to go for a ride?" it's something very different than Americans mean it! "Do you want a lift?" would be the way to say it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,Kantoa
Date: 30 May 05 - 01:38 PM

I had the opportunity to tour part of Europe in 1972 with my university choral program. While in England a few of up stopped at a "Real English Pub". I volunteered to go up for drinks.
The following coversation ensued:
Me:I'd like four root beers.
Bartender: Silence followed by a look.
Me:Explanation of what is a root beer
Bartender: We don't have it.
Returned to table Got other orders.
Me: Two cokes and two birch beers
Bartender: "ere's yer two cokes. What'er birch beers?
Me: Explaination of the birch beer. Returned to the table with the two cokes with one tiny piece of ice in each glass. Got more orders.
Me: Another coke and a sloe gin fizz.
Bartender: 'ere's yer coke. Gin fizz?
Me: Returned to the group, got another order.
Me: How about an ale?
Baterned: Sure here it is
Me: You got any pretzels to go with that?
Bartender: You Yanks like some strange sounding drinks.
Note there was an American at the bar on a barstool who almost fell off his seat listening to this exchange.
Notes for the uncertain: Birch beer and root beer are now soft drinks They were originally made by fermenting the root of the Sassafras tree in water sweetener and yeast, sweetening the result. Birch bear is similar. They taste of herbs.
Pretzels are twisted dry (or in Philly, or NYC where they are sold as a street snack-big and soft)breadstcks with coarse salt on the surface.
Next: Biscuit? Cookie?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 30 May 05 - 03:53 PM

I hadn't known of Birch Beer myself. Makes me wonder if it's a regional difference? I'm in California. Is it like Sarsaparilla?

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: Bill D
Date: 30 May 05 - 05:15 PM

You run into Birch Beer and such about as often as you find phosphate drinks (as opposed to carbonated). I have seen it bottled a few times at specailty stores, but it never seems to catch on, except in certain areas where it has had a dedicated local following for years

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,Kantoa
Date: 30 May 05 - 10:50 PM

Acually, here in NYC you can find birch beer, but I haven't found phosphates, which I did run into in rural Pennsylvania, near the Delaware River about 30 years ago.
Birch beer is similar to root beer, but is a little stronger in taste and has a very slight taste of wintergreen.
The real local favorites here in the Big Apple are Doctor Brown's Celray Tonic, yep celery soda, and a very nice coffee soda, I think called Manhattan. Dr. Brown also makes cream soda. Is that a regional soda also? I know Boston is known for "Moxie" a brown soda which you have to be born in New England to enjoy.
What the heck, we were college students back then and not very worldly; we thought everybody had the same tastes as we did.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 31 May 05 - 02:35 AM

For those that have followed this thread (and enjoyed it) the UK book, Eats, Shoots and Leaves is a delightfuly entertaining dissertation on the varianaces in punctuation in the two cultures. Some good chuckles, well worth the 10pounds.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:16 AM

Cream soda is readily available here in New Brunswick, Canada. You can get the clear or the cherry.

Birch beer is long gone. Ginger ale : Schweppes (spg?), Schweppes Golden, Canada Dry, Sussex, Sussex Golden (Sussex Golden is not for the faint of taste buds - or heartburn).

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a comon language
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 31 May 05 - 07:14 AM

I'm a Yank who's been living in the UK (yes, Yorkshire -- how did you guess?) for 7-8 years now, and I'm still running into unfamiliar words -- although not as often as I did when I first moved here.

"Stop" was one source of misunderstanding for me; at work one day, someone asked me if I was "stopping". It was after 5 pm, and I said yes, as I expected to stop working soon. However, his use of "stopping" meant "Are you staying late?" -- as in "stopping in" or "stopping by". I guess I should have said I'd only be stopping while a little while longer!

"Nesh" is a great Yorkshire word, used to describe someone who wears a jumper/sweater or coat when everyone else is in t-shirts (i.e. someone more susceptible to cold than most).

For those interested, the English to English Dictionary thread has many more examples, including a parody I wrote on the subject, titled Don't Know the Words... (for My Favo(u)rite Things).

Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 01:01 AM

Thanks, Bill D., Kantoa, gnu. You can get Dr. Brown's in California in some places, such as at a deli, but it's not too widespread here. Too bad, cause it's good stuff. I love that celery soda!

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 12:42 PM

To my knowledge, anyway, there is in the United States only one--count 'em, one!--producer and bottler of real root beer. Everything else sold with that title is made with synthetic flavors.

About three years ago my Beautiful Wife and I attended the National Folk Festival in Lansing, Michigan, and this small family company had a booth. The guy who runs the little family company gave a nice talk about root beer, and his family's history of making it and marketing it.   He's the one that made the claim contained in my first paragraph.

Good stuff, too!

No, no low-cal, no-cal, or sugarless root beer. He said they had looked into it, and the stuff that resulted just didn't meet the traditional flavor, and they won't make it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:38 PM

Like Yorkshire Yankee and the English/English topic, I'll refer you to this root beer (and other odd "sodas"/"pops"/"carbonated beverages") thread (among others) and point out that there are officially no new topics on the 'Cat!

;-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 05:55 PM

For the sake of stirring it up a bit...

Noah Webster (1758-1843) is said to have been an Anglophobe. Whilst it may be true to say that he sought to standardize rather inconsistent spelling, it is also said that he showed a marked tendency to standardize away from from normal English spelling. Hence, center rather than centre; color for colour; & so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 07:24 PM

We know about pretzels now, thanks to George Bush's litle adventure with one. Any time he comes to visit they'll be on the menu...

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 07:42 PM

Well, centre is spelled incorrectly, isn't it? In French, it means the same thing as in English. So why, if the English pronunciation is actually center, should it not be changed? Let's forget the "c" for now. On the other hand, shouldn't we keep "metre" for the measure and "meter" for the measure of the measure? And.... oops... virtual memory is l...

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 04:37 AM

Nesh is just a Yorkshire dialect word for ' cold ' ie. " it's a bit nesh outside "

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 07:12 PM

Found this on the internet;

As for the brand names at the bottom of the article I can also add another Japanese sports drink product I used to buy when I lived in Japan 'Pocari Sweat'

I'd rather have a bowl of... crack?
Con Doherty
Thursday 23 June 2005
Kellogg's might have made a slight error in their new product's name, writes Con Doherty


Kellogg's Coco Rocks: at least they didn't go with the name "Kellogg's Coco Methamphetamine Hydrochloride"You wouldn't normally put crack cocaine and breakfast food in the same basket. But thanks to a mix-up at cereal giant Kellogg's, the two have become synonymous.

The marketing monkeys behind the innocuous little chocolatey Kelloggs' Coco Pops thought they were on safe ground when they launched Coco Rocks, the exciting new jungle-inspired spin-off of the cereal. Unfortunately for them, they don't seem to have done their research among the highways, byways and alleyways of London's drug dens.

The new cereal brand launched in the UK earlier this year. But it has become an object of fun for drug-users and specialists. Coco Rocks to them means something very, very different - though, admittedly, it still has that nice chocolate overtone. The term is street slang for "dark brown crack cocaine made by adding chocolate pudding during production", according to the latest drugs guides available.

"You'd think people like Kelloggs would have teams of people checking new brand names out to see what they might mean," said a spokeswoman for leading drugs advice charity Drugscope, who's clearly been reading the same drugs guide as us. "Coco rocks is a term used to describe dark brown crack made by adding chocolate pudding during production. God knows why anyone would want to do that, but they do.

"It's logged in our library and has been around since at least 2003, so, I think Kelloggs might be getting a bit of a shock when they find out about it."

And indeed they did. Vicki Barton, a public relations spokeswoman for the cereal company, said the association was, "not funny - someone could lose their job over this."

The company was unwilling to answer any questions on the topic, including whether it would now consider a rebranding of the cereal, or whether it would examine the street drugs knowledge of its branding teams to find out whether there was any mischief behind the development of the new concept.

The company did however release a terse statement: "Kelloggs' Coco Pops Coco Rocks is a popular new cereal. The cereal contains chocolate-lined rock-shaped pillows [a technical term for a widened cereal flake shape]."


The dangers of double meanings
The Coco Rocks concept was initially launched outside the UK without mishap. But it follows in a long line of international brands which don't translate well to new markets. Like these that caught our fancy:

Spunk - Danish sweet bar
Zit Lemon-lime - Greek soft drink
Colon Plus Liquid - Spanish detergent
Polio - Czech detergent
Krapp - Swedish toilet paper
Homo Sausage Beef jerky - Japan
Mucos - Japanese soft drink
Pansy - Chinese men's underwear
Fockink - Dutch liqueur
Pshitt - French soft drink

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 07:24 PM

I believe that a Japanese firm once launched a car called the Condom.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 09:28 PM

I'm always being 'called' on my Americanisms and I live in Canada!

I have corrected most of the words but can't seem to get used to calling a sack a bag. In Canada its called a bag lunch. I call it a sack lunch. This always brings howls of laughter.

Recently I noticed that when a child is kidnapped it is called an abduction. When someone is abducted in Iraq, it is called a kidnapping. Who is responsible for this turn of terminology?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 12:49 AM

Was up in northern China last week. Whilst we were out on the road we I noticed many of the road signs were also in English as well as Chinese.

I was intrigued to come up to a sign for a 'turning dish' it was a roundabout. BTW what is a roundabout in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 01:04 AM

A traffic circle. (and sometimes, a roundabout.)

~ Becky in Tucson, where there aren't any.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 04:02 PM

Roundabout = one lane. Traffic circle = two or more lanes. Generally.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 04:08 PM

and then we have jughandles ( NJ)...


cloverleafs ( all over)...

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 04:08 PM

I learned to drive a car in Calgary. There were NO traffic circles there at that time. Moved to Edmonton a year later. Ended up in a traffic circle and traffic was such that I couldn't get out for at least six times around the circle. Finally, I saw an opening and floored the car. Ended up out and going back the way I'd come. Was very exciting. Just thought I'd share that.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: s&r
Date: 04 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM

In Nottingham nesh meant unduly worried about feeling cold - a person was nesh, not the weather

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 02:16 AM

Gnu - You said, "Roundabout = one lane. Traffic circle = two or more lanes. Generally."

In my neighborhood, the traffic circle is only one lane. In fact, most of the traffic circles in Vancouver are only one lane - one way. I thought round abouts occurred only on hiways.

I was in a round about in France that was 4 or 5 lanes and shaped in a cloverleaf - or was that a bad dream? It was really hard to change lanes and catch the right exit so you just kept going round and round at about 50 miles an hour (or so it seemed). I felt like I was inside a pinball game.

What do you call pinball in other places?

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:36 AM

My apologies. I guess I am just too technical when it comes to roadway terminology. BTW, we Transportaion Engineers call a cloverleaf a cloverleaf.

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:38 AM

nawwww - you are both mistaken - one lane or multi-lane they are "rotaries" *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: An Englishman Abroad
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:10 PM

Thanks for a few gems folks.I am always on the lookout for new material.

I make good money speaking about the differences between the UK and the USA.

See my web site. www.AnEnglishmanAbroad.com and see what I mean.

all the best       John

Subject: RE: BS: Two cultures divided by a common language
From: Splott Man
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 04:37 AM

If you like roundabouts, go to the Arc de Triomphe in Paris and watch the traffic - 12 roads converge on one guge roundabout. Or the 5 mini roundabouts in a circle in Swindon, a bit like a Sicilian Circle dance.

Sorry off topic there.

When I was in Bali, the local film processor was called Taticolor.