BS: How long after can one make jokes about

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 04:46 AM

We all tell and hear jokes in bad taste, but somehow we expect better from the BBC.
Another joke they allowed was someone impersonating the queen and saying" I'm so old my pussie is haunted."
One they pulled a couple of weeks ago, when biscuits were in the news, was when a presenter called two other contributors, one black and one white, their own custard cream and chocolate hobnob.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 04:11 AM

I can only assume that those who wring their hands in anguish at black humour and bad taste are lucky enough never to have been involved in the sort of unpleasant situations the jokes celebrate.
The times when I've been involved nasty situations involving lots of bits of dead people, mutilated children, slaughtered innocents and the like have been the times when the jokes have come thick and fast. They're a safety valve - without black humour we'd all go mad with the sheer unremitting horror and unfairness of existence. It helps us keep buggering on in the face of enormity.
A po-faced attitude is quite common, though. I was in hospital a month or so back having suffered a heart attack. It was a worrying time for the family, and as they all clustered round the bed where I was covered in wires and gadgets I tried to defuse things with some off-colour remarks. My son's girlfriend was absolutely disgusted, I discovered later. Apparently she wanted to hit me for making jokes about sick people and nurses, a though I had somehow demeaned the holy nature of the hospital. It was quite cathartic telling her to fuck off when I was discharged.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 03:34 AM

The really interesting point at stake here is the idea, proposed by MtheGM in his 10.51 post, about whether anything is "out of bounds" for humour.

I would say that no, nothing is, but that doesn't mean people don't have the right to challenge jokes that they think cross a boundary. Such boundaries, however, are never fixed and solid. That's what makes humour so intriguing.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 02:42 AM

'Michael, I have more pleasant things to do than try to find agreement with someone who's clearly only trying to manipulate people into further argument.'

Then why shove yr clumsy & inept put-in into the thread in the first place, Jeri? Thoroughly exercised as to where you are coming from.
What the point of any thread except 'further argument'?

Still, enjoy yr 'pleasant things'; aren't you just the lucky one!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 02:21 AM

Jesus' mother, his aunt, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. John stood nearby.

See John 19:25

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:18 AM

Boy, did I ever take too much time editing, or what!?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Nov 09 - 12:16 AM

Michael, I have more pleasant things to do than try to find agreement with someone who's clearly only trying to manipulate people into further argument.

Ebbie, different Mary, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:59 PM

Well geeziz Ebbie, here I was trying to sugar coat it a bit and you gotsta' come along and mess me up.   First, I kinda' like your Mary Mother of God idea......that's really kinky! But I was referring to Mary Magdalene who is oft depicted and reputed to have been at the foot of the cross.

And second, the actual punch line was/is: "I can see Mary's tits from here."

Are you happy now?

LMAO......that's what I get for trying to tone myself down......(:<))


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:43 PM

Lol The Jesus joke made me laugh. Not the Mary one though. Sorry, Spaw. Jesus would not have said 'Mary', for one thing- he would have said 'Mom', thereby bringing in a totally different element. Plus the 'looking down a blouse' reference doesn't resonate with me. A guy thing, you think?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:51 PM

Wow, what a lot of additions to this thread overnight — so this is going back a bit.

Lox - I did get what you meant by 'pignant' you know: if you recall, I described it as an 'adventitiously felicitous TYPO' or some such — but it was, alliterativly with 'patronising', one of the triggers for my regrettable use of 'pillock'.

The point to draw attention to is that my title for this thread [I was OP you will rediscover if you check] is interrogative. I am concerned with the questions of how much time may lapse — & additionally, by obvious implication, as to whether there are any topics which can never be appropriate subjects for humour. I, as will have been gathered, would rubricate Anne Frank as one such — a real person who exemplified a defiant survival spirit in the most adverse and intolerable of situations who nevertheless came to a tragic end. But not everyone will agree. And I do remember saying once to my late wife, "Here's a joke I just made up. If I had been born in Warsaw instead of in London then I shouldn't be a theatre critic, I'd be a lampshade", & she was horrified & exclaimed "How can you make a joke of such a thing?!" (she had no Jewish connections). So who is always consistent at that? But Anne Frank nevertheless remains out of bounds so far as I am concerned. But if there were no disagreements there would be no threads on any forums, would there?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 09:06 PM

There was a scene in the movie "The Diary Of Anne Frank" where they exchanged gifts for a holiday - can't remember if it was Christmas or Channukah. I do remember that Anne had collected cigarette butts from a man in the group over the year and re-rolled the leavings into cigarettes for him. Very clever and very kind - I remember him being a pain in the ass. She had equally clever gifts for everyone else. I don't recall this being in the book but it has been years since I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 08:16 PM

"A media outlet shouldn't encourage people to laugh at real victims of monstrous crimes. And it shouldn't suggest to an audience of millions that it's proud of having done so. Nor should we leap to its defense when it does."

Quite right.

Fortunately in this case no victims of a crime are being laughed at, only a fictitious scenario.

So that's that then.


Dave the Gnome,

The version I saw starred Rik Mayall, Adrian Edmondson and Christopher Ryan of young ones fame.

Christopher Ryan was the star of the show and brought the house down.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:41 PM

Joe, too bad you didn't get to Helen Schneyers memorial service. Lots of humor, black as night and wicked funny. Just as she would have had it.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:32 PM

Wow....I got the 100 and didn't realize it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:31 PM

Alternate punch line:

"You can see right down Mary's dress from here."


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:29 PM

True, 999, and my Daughter-in-laws family who are Jewish do swap presents and have a tree at Christmas as well - Just wondered if it was common practice. Anyhow, academic now as I just re-read the joke and it says she got a drum-kit for her birthday, not Christmas, so apologies for adding further confusion.

Nice Christian Joke for you.

Jesus hanging on the cross, muttering.

Peter says 'What is it, Lord?'

Jesus continues muttering.

Peter gets a ladder and bribes the guards to let hin climb up for fear of missing his leaders wisdom

'I am here, Lord. What is it you want of me?'

Jesus replies in a whisper

'Peter... Peter...














You can see our house from here.'

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:17 PM

Tuesday, December 24, 1940

Tuesday, December 21, 1943

Both above dates are the start of Chanukah which lasts for eight days. It's entirely possible there were exchanges of gifts on December 25.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:05 PM

Believe it or not I have never seen 'Waiting for Godot' although all the accounts I hear confirm that it is exceedingly good. Although regret is something that I do not do - too negative and bugger all you can do about past events anyway - I do wish I had gone to see the version with Mike Harding and Bernard Wrigley at the Octogon, Bolton, when I had chance. One day I will get round to to seeing it and, whoever is in it, I am sure I will enjoy it:-)

I must admit at being surprised at the connection with 'One foot' and 'Waiting for God' - apart from the cranky old men. I can see now, from what I have heard, how it could have inspired a lot of the tragi/comic offerings and, like many other things, it was in turn inspired by earlier offerings. Cutting back to the point - There is probably nothing new in anything. Including black comedy. It has always happened. It always will. Live with it!

Oh - and another ludicrous point about the Franks drum kit. Would a Jewish family swap presents at Christmas?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:36 PM

I used to avoid funerals. I never knew what to say, and I was afraid I'd say something wrong. I went out of social obligation, and made sure to leave right after the service was over. My grandmother, the best friend I ever had in my life, died in 1982, when I was 34 years old. Not only did I have to attend the funeral and reception - I had to speak at the wake. Now, my grandmother was a very funny and joyful woman, and it's impossible to speak about her without being funny and joyful. Somehow, she was always able to face the difficulties of life and of getting old with a sense of humor, so it seemed only right to speak of those difficulties with humor. So I got through my speech and people liked it, and I found that the laughter about my lovely, crazy grandmother helped ease the pain of losing her. And I lost my fear of funerals.

After that, I made a point of attending the funeral of every dead person I knew, and doing my best to make sure there was music at the funeral. I found that I really enjoyed them and that they were often filled with joy and laughter, along with the tears. I often found that the people closest to the deceased, were the ones most likely to appreciate humor and laughter at a funeral.

Even laughter at the dead person's faults is often welcome. The funeral of a son of a bitch can be a very difficult thing. Outsiders may have had problems with the deceased, but the family may have found living with the bastard to be living hell. A little laughter can help put things in perspective, and can help people cope with the negative aspects of all that they're dealing with.

But the main thing is, that the people closest to suffering and death, are the most likely to welcome humor. People who are suffering or grieving, rarely are offended by a good-hearted attempt at humor. They know that people don't know what to say or do, and they're able to accept that.

So don't be too quick to judge humor harshly. It's often a very healthy, honest thing.

-Joe-

(and I think Anne Frank would have liked the drum joke)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:17 PM

Just to repeat:

"A media outlet shouldn't encourage people to laugh at real victims of monstrous crimes. And it shouldn't suggest to an audience of millions that it's proud of having done so. Nor should we leap to its defense when it does."

That's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:15 PM

Michael--perhaps I undersold my link--perhaps you can tell by the opening paragraph, so helpfully posted by Lox above, that it is a very serious, scholarly article, offered at The Holocaust Teachers Resource Center, which decribes itself as follows--

"This Holocaust Teacher Resource Center (TRC) web site, is dedicated to the memory of the six million Jewish people slaughtered during the Holocaust and the millions other people slaughtered during the Nazi era. It strives to combat prejudice and bigotry by transforming the horrors of the Holocaust into positive lessons to help make this a better and safer world for everybody. This site is sponsored by the Holocaust Education Foundation, Inc."

I tell you this so that you understand that when you say "but I don't think I shall access that site you so helpfully provide the clicky for." it looks as though you choose to ignore those who are trying to teach the lessons of the Holocaust. I am sure that's not what you meant, and that you only wanted to be spared from humor that makes you uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:39 PM

As for "la Vita e bella"

A film about how a father manages somehow to hide the horror of a concentration camp from his son ... but not the viewer ...

... no ... linear thought and blinkers can't handle that kind of subtlety.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:33 PM

Spaw,

I would add that your 'offensive' hunour, when directed at your friends, especially those in difficulty, is nothing if not sensitive and heartwarming.

Some of your friends on here have been through some difficult times of late to do with their health and when people have started ringing their death knell (with the best of intentions) you have been there to offer levity and optimism.

Those with the most to worry about, ie your sick friends, have known exactly where you are coming from, got the joke and been cheered up.

If it wasn't for your humour, those threads would read like a fucking gravestone and your ... our friends would be all the more terrified and pessimistic.

Humour isn't just justified, it is essential.

Life is to be lived.

Death will have its day.

That day is not now.

I will remember funny mischievous kids like anne frank with a glint in my eye.

If there is a lesson to be learned from her book it's 'stop bloody moaning'.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:14 PM

I've remained out of the fray here (pretty much), but I have to come down on Lox's side at this point. It laughs at a fictional construct is accurate. The joke becomes funny (though weakly so) just exactly because it has nothing really to do with the real family. In effect the scenario deals with an abstract family in the situation that the Franks occupied. The use of the Franks' name serves only to identify the situation.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 05:13 PM

Ya' know Sins, I'm not real sure! Can you laugh at a joke made by a man literally minutes before his death?

My Dad's best friend was Joe. Joe was a really fine man with a great smile and a big laugh and after my parents had gone, he and his wife were sort of replacements. Joe became ill about 20 years back with cancer and typically though he fought hard, it was terminal from the gitgo. But Joe did it well and when Marg finally had to get hospice care his time was very short. His two sisters that he had rarely seen in his later years (because he thought they were incredible pains in the ass) came to visit and Joe was barely able to stay awake but would never have told them he wanted them to leave. Finally, they arose and said they were leaving as they "didn't want to wear out their welcome."   Without missing a beat and with his eyes still closed Joe said, "Too late."

Marg, JoAnn (daughter) and I just couldn't help but bust out laughing. The sisters left and Joe died with Marg and JoAnn by his side about 15 minutes later. I can't help but think how wonderful it would be to have laughter as the last sound you hear.

This thread is just so much friggin' crap. Some of you will never get the joke or enjoy it or anything else. I'm happy you're happy with that. I'm not. I find humor in damn near everything almost anytime. If you hate "black humor" or "filthy language" or "dirty jokes" then don't listen or don't read and go hang with those who think your way.....please.

One thing is pretty sure and that is that I won't change your mind and you won't change mine!

One more thing though.........For those of you who hate sarcasm, "cuttin," "playing the dozens," and forms of put-down humor, its probably because you're lousy at it or were brought up to believe it was nasty and vile.   You won't change and I know that. Neither will I.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:54 PM

"Everybody Loves Raymond ridicules stupid people - I don't mind giving that up."

This is the point.

A lighter says, laughing AT people and their misfortune isn't big or clever.

I would add that I don't find peoples misfortune funny.


The Anne Frank Joke however does not laugh at anyones misfortune, it laughs at a fictional construct.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:46 PM

I know, Spaw. I am looking for guidance here. How can I be sure NEVER to offend anyone with my humor. Is there a list somewhere of forbidden topics? Paw and the Reg Boys and Cletus are all red necked ignorami - are they off the list? Sarah Palin? George Bush? I guess all politicians since they are all involved in one disaster or another. Madoff? Nope! Too many poor people. Gladiators? Nope Caligula? Nope! Kendall? Nope! - Jacqui bears the brunt there. How about Barbara Streisand? Did South Park offend anyone when they spoofed her? For sure I can't laugh at South Park anymore.
Everybody Loves Raymond ridicules stupid people - I don't mind giving that up.

How about that cranky old guy on 60 Minutes, Andy Rooney? The Muppets? They made fun of pigs and ballerinas with Swine Lake.

Where can I go to laugh?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:37 PM

That's dangerous ground Sinsull.......I mean like, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:36 PM

(don't mention the war)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:36 PM

... I wasn't expecting the Spanish inquisition ...

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:27 PM

So Monty Python's Spanish Inquisiton joke is off limits as well? And not funny?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM

MtheGM said he is no familiar with the expression.

Everything on this thread can be comprehended. Some are unable to do so. See below:
"Furthermore, your statement that Jeri "was neutral and made no judgement nor took any side" is nothing short of baffling. Look it up."

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:11 PM

When I was last in England traveling with my wifes family, some dope did something stupid and I yelled "Pillok" at him. That's not a word that my step daughter wanted her 9 year old son to hear.
She should hear some of my regular blessings.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM

"Had 'One foot in the grave' have ended with anything but Victor dying would it have had the same edge? How about Stephanie Cole in 'Waiting for God'. Not much to laugh about getting old and being in a home? Just watch the show."

Why not cut to the chase and refer directly to "waiting for Godot" upon which they are based.

A funnier play you will never see, nor a more grave, thought provoking and soul stirring tragedy.

Though to clarify again, the Ann Frank Joke referred to above still doesn't fit that category as it has no bearing on the actual tragedy which occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:54 PM

I'm quite familiar with the expression "fish or cut bait", thank you, and it is utterly nonsensical in the context in which it was used here.

Btw, I don't understand why you would tell me to look something up, then go on to tell me it can't be comprehended.

Furthermore, your statement that Jeri "was neutral and made no judgement nor took any side" is nothing short of baffling. Look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:46 PM

I think the poignancy of the situation is often a foil for the humour as well. Most of the best comedies often have an element of tragedy which gives them an added depth unseen in others. Likewise with standup comedy or jokes such as we have been discussing. Go back to Shakespear and beyon and you will find examples of the reverse as well - Look at the Porter scene in MacBeth to see how humour can add an extra dimension to a tragedy.

Had 'One foot in the grave' have ended with anything but Victor dying would it have had the same edge? How about Stephanie Cole in 'Waiting for God'. Not much to laugh about getting old and being in a home? Just watch the show.

And, to my mind, one of the all time classics of tragic/comic acting is Paul Whitehouse playing Rowley Birkin, QC, who's incomprehensible mumblings we had all laughed at for years. In the last 'Fast show', with tears in his eyes, we caught the odd snippets about the woman he loved so much. Absolute masterpiece and should be a lesson to all on not knowing whether to laugh or cry!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:44 PM

No, meself, that is not what Jeri said at all.

"Fish or cut bait" is a US expression. Look it up for an explanation. I don't want to waste any more bandwidth on explaining what can't be comprehended. That is pretty close to what Jeri was saying.

By the way, she was neutral and made no judgement nor took any side.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:34 PM

"What have I admitted lack of ability to understand? — I am not conscious of having made any such admission"

You aditted it as follows:


    "'You see?'

    No. "


i.e - no I don't see = no I don't understand.


Please try to remain conscious.

More conscious catters seem to have had no difficulty realizing that "Pignant" is "Poignant" misspelled.

But you can have a gold star if you can stay awake long enough.

Lighter.

"The crux is what happens next. What if the joke ends with PA stoned to death by an angry mob?"

It didn't.

The joke was the image of PA poledancing in a mosque.

the rest was YOUR addition.

The bits you added weren't funny.


"Worse, what if the *real* PA really had been stoned to death by an angry mob?"


hmmm interesting ... your imagination is indeed a fertile place.


You may need to clarify your point though unless you meant to draw a paralell with the Ann Frank joke, in which case I may need to repeat that Mr Frank never did buy a drumkit, and drumkits never played any part in the reality of their story, neither does a joke about a drumkit in relation to ann Frank say anything about whether or not the Franks were or weren't stupid as they never had any interest in Drumkits...

... that coincidentally being an essential part of the joke being criticized.


So to clarify your line of thinking for you, as PA has never poledanced in a mosque, much less been stoned to death for it, the PA joke remains inoffensive regardless of your curiosity about what happens next.

Likewise, the Ann Frank Joke is not offensive as Mr Frank never bought Ann Frank a drumkit, and her death had nothing to do with playing the drums.

Her death was the result of the Nazi policy of murdering Jews, and her diary is a heart rending account of human refusal to lose ones optimism, positivity, irreverence, sense of Irony and sense of humour no matter what the circumstances.

Ann Frank ultimately died of Typhus according to surviving witnesses. She was also cannibalised by them, which was something they had no choice over.


That isn't funny either.



The joke never at any point refers to any of those things.



You might ask "what if it did?" just as you asked "what if PA had poledanced in a mosque?" etc.

Well then it would be a different joke.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:01 PM

I believe that what Jeri means is that s/he disagrees with you, and that therefore you are wrong and should not defend your point of view.

But perhaps I've misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:50 PM

Regret cannot congratulate you on the clarity of your contribution addressed to me, Jeri.

Not familar with phrase 'cut bait' — elucidate, please.

What have I admitted lack of ability to understand? — I am not conscious of having made any such admission — please provide me with a reference.

Also to my offendedness "because some people do" — "do" what?

And what, precisely do you think "is a lost cause all around"?

Apart from all that, your comments are a model of hyaline comprehensibility.

Regards - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:36 PM

Michael the GM, I think you'd be best to cut bait.

You have admitted you lack the ability to understand, and are offended because some people do. I think it's a lost cause all around.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:20 PM

'Name calling is the second last resort of a person who has no better argument to advance, and this thread is bigger than MtheGM.'

Actually, Lox, I accept this reproach. I was only attracted to the word 'pillock', in fact, [which as i told Kendall is really quite a vanilla word, and not part of my general vocab of abuse] as stylistic device, a bit of alliteration with "Pignant" & 'patronising' — your having informed me in somewhat lordly fashion that I was 'beginning to get it' or some such having got on not a million miles from my tits. But I will acknowledge it was not a particularly worthy or brilliant bit of argument on my part.

Still don't think you are right, mind — must say I think many of your arguments wilful & frivolous. I think Lighter has put the points well in his last post. But you are hereby officially cleared of any suspicions or accusations of pillockry.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:02 PM

Lox, you seem to be saying that the joke is funny just because it's absurd.

Well, maybe that's why people *do* laugh. My point, though, is that the joke-teller, who dreamed it up, exploits a named, innocent, real person's destruction to get laughs and wants others to laugh too. Not a good thing. Anne Frank is an especially offensive focus, because her individual fate was that of millions. And pointlessly telling the joke over the air, to many who are close to the same sort of experience and might reasonably be expected to take serious offense, is not a good thing either. Finally, somebody decided it was beneath the Beeb's dignity to apologize: even worse.

Lox, your examples of absurdist jokes are unpersuasive. Pamela Anderson? Pole dancing in a mosque? The crux is what happens next. What if the joke ends with PA stoned to death by an angry mob? Worse, what if the *real* PA really had been stoned to death by an angry mob? And if you knew her relatives were in the joke's radio/TV audience? Would you criticize them for being indignant? If so, why?
Because they need to lighten up?

A media outlet shouldn't encourage people to laugh at real victims of monstrous crimes. And it shouldn't suggest to an audience of millions that it's proud of having done so. Nor should we leap to its defense when it does.

MtheGM, thanks for the correction on Belsen.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:26 PM

'You see?'

No.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:06 PM

No worries kendall.

Name calling is the second last resort of a person who has no better argument to advance, and this thread is bigger than MtheGM.

The last resort is violence.



"In the Anne Frank joke, we're supposed to laugh because the family's stupidity kills them."


If the Frank Family had actually bought Anne a drum kit and had subsequently been caught by the Nazi's as a result of playing it noisily then that would have been a very bad decision.

Drawing attention to that and laughing at it would be to ridicule them and find enjoyment in a tragic mistake.

That would be to say "weren't the franks stupid ha ha ha"


But they didn't did they.


So we aren't laughing at something they did are we?


No.


So we aren't calling them stupid are we?


No.



Well then what could we possibly laughing at?



1. The notion that Anne Franks Father would have considered buying her a drumkit in the first place, which is completely absurd because:

a) Anne Frank didn't play the drums and had no interest in doing so. we know this because there are no passages in her diary in which she expresses such a desire. So for her to be given a drumkit is entirely incongruous with everything we know about her.

The incongruity of a Drumkit with the context of Anne Frank's story is ridiculous.

The drumkit is extremely funny!

b) A drumkit would have been virtually impossible to find in Nazi occupied Amsterdam, and would have been unaffordable to Anne Franks Father even if he had been free to go shopping down at the local Drumkit retailers.

The idea of Him buying and carrying a drumkit through Amsterdam to bring home to their house, looking like a one man band as he clatters and bumps his waay home, is an utterly absurd fiction and for that reason very funny.

It is also entirely incongruous with the realities of the story, hence it is both funny and (being incongruous) has no bearing on whether or not Mr Frank was stupid or not.

It says nothing about whether he is stupid or not.

2. We are also laughing at the idea that somebody in hiding might decide to start playing the drums.

"Surely Lox and others recognize the difference between laughing *with* and laughing *at*. "

I'm not laughing either 'with' or 'at' the Franks. They are not essential to the Joke. It could just as easily have been anyone else in hiding.

In the case of the Franks however it is particularly absurd as we know the question of owning a drumkit would never have crossed their minds in the first place even if they had never been in hiding.


A drumkit in the context of Anne frank is simply very funny and I laughed out loud at the joke for that reason.


Examples of humour involving incongrous additions to well known situations.


The idea of Pamela Anderson applying for a job as a pole dancer in a mosque.

This says nothing about moslems or Pamela anderson.

It is funny because it is ridiculous.

The idea of an insurance salesman knocking on frodo baggins door in the lord of the rings.

The idea of Aslan the Lion being arrested by the FBI for the murder of the Ice Queen in Narnia.


You see?


The idea of a drumkit in the Anne frank house ...



The idea of a palestinian suicide bomber in colditz ...


Any help?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

Name calling? Moi! The very idea! Oh, do you mean 'pillock'? — a very mild denunciation over here, I assure you. But I withdraw it if you prefer, & will substitute 'big-girl's blouse'. There, is that better?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 11:18 AM

Name calling is considered a personal attack here, and is not condoned.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:50 AM

And Lighter, before one of the pillocks like Lox picks up on your minimal error & makes a thing of it to try to diminish what you say, I who am on your side will point out that Anne Frank died in Belsen, not Auschwitz; & what of it morally tho?. Otherwise you are 100% on the ball.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:45 AM

pignant moment in the film.

You're getting there - well done. >>>

'Pignant' rather a happily adventitious typo, you patronising pillock, Lox. 'La vita e bella' a disgusting travesty — Auschwitz as a sort of happy holiday camp where you could just piss off from your work detail whenever you felt like it to make sure the sweet little boy no-one had noticed hidden in your hut was OK. & you think Morreal's PseudsCorner·worthy thesis 'fantastic', do you? Indeed — fantastically pretentious.

Hate to say it, Lox - but you are coming across as just not right bright.

Don't trouble to rejoin; I shall read no more of your stupid posts on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:37 AM

If we didn't know about Anne Frank, her arrest by the Gestapo, and her death at Auschwitz, the joke wouldn't exist. That's what the joke's based on, what it's ultimately about, and what the original teller must have thought was either funny or meaningless. Some of those who laughed along don't see it that way. But remember, the idea didn't pop into their heads. In fact (one hopes) it had never occurred to them. The Anne Frank joke was created by someone eager to share his or her light-hearted attitude toward the Holocaust with the BBC's large audience.

Those who laughed aren't (I hope) "sick." But the joke is in such bad taste the BBC should have apologized for broadcasting it and thus helping to desensitize people to mass killings even further.
What bothers me about the joke isn't its lack of humor - that's a matter of taste. What bothers me is its unapologetic broadcast. (Check out the current "antisemitic Boy Scout" thread).

As for Viktor Frankl's joke about the showers - no comparison. In that one, we laugh *with* the victims because they escape with their lives (for now). In the Anne Frank joke, we're supposed to laugh because the family's stupidity kills them. They rather get what they deserve for being such jerks, don't they?

Victims of the Holocaust had every right to crack whatever grim jokes they needed to help themselves stay sane. We, however, have no moral right to crack and encourage gratuitous jokes at their expense. That's why I find the joke offensive.

Surely Lox and others recognize the difference between laughing *with* and laughing *at*.