BS: Obama caught in blatant lying

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:17 PM

"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"
FALSE already

Are Americans now compelled to give up the health insurance they have?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:19 PM

Many are, McGrath, but not because of any health care reform laws (we don't have one yet), but rather because the insurance companies are either kicking them off the rolls of the insured, or because the insurance companies are jacking up the cost of their premiums so high they can't afford it any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:22 PM

I'm curious- did anyone here think that cleaning up the mess the president inherited would be painless? I've said a number of times that from to time we will be disappointed, that from time to time our government will have to have a 'do-over, that from time to time our government will make mistakes...

bb and others, surely you are not ignoring the situation President Obama inherited? Everything from the financial collapse with its concomitant disasters, to two wars, and on and on. If we listed everything that had gone wrong according to its unprecedented-ness inthose eight years it would be a long list indeed.

I repeat: Did anyone here think it would be painless? How naive.Far from being painless it has elements if impossibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM

"Bruce is, of course, completely free to say anything, true or not, that will spread around his bitterness and acerbiv dislike about all things Obama. And likely to do so, as well.

But that does not make his statements judicious, even-tempered, fair-minded, or accurate."



True- as is the fact that YOU ( Amos) were completely free to say anything, true or not, that will spread around your bitterness and acerbic dislike about all things Bush. But that does not make your statements judicious, even-tempered, fair-minded, or accurate.



If you don't like what I say, try finding facts that refute the statements, instead of attacking me. You might find that your idol has feet of clay.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:32 PM

I said NOTHING about it being painless. The point nder discussion here is that Obama made statements about what he and his administration would do, from the start, and he has failed in 11 months to do what he said he would.


Which of the following do you want to blame on Bush??

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"



Waiting for the answer....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

Was that "me" bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:34 PM

My own opinion about whether or not Obama is living up to my expectations of him is that he definitely is. I expected him to be no Kucinich, and he is certainly no Kucinich. Having said that, he's a far sight better than the people we had in his place in the previous eight years (in my opinion).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:37 PM

Which of the following do you want to blame on Bush??

For at least three of them, there's nothing to blame anyone for, since none of the three have any relationship to reality. They are fabrications made up by whichever liars beardedbruce and DougR get their copy pasts from.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,ArtBrooks in Pittsburgh
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

This is a representative democracy, not a dictatorship. Mr. Obama has some influence over what the Democrats in Congress propose, but really doesn't control them. His earlier statements in the context of the campaign clearly indicate that he believed he had more control than he really does, but blaming him for what ends up in, or omitted from, legislation indicates a sad lack of understanding of the system. One could easily argue either side of the four items BB has mentioned, although it seems to me that the entire discussion resembles the kind of sour-grapes attitude that the Republican "leadership" has shown in the past few days when it has begun to appear that the president might actually pull a partial win out against their complete stonewalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

CarolC, you are entitled to have whatever opinion you wish. Please allow the rest of us that priviledge.





"whichever liars beardedbruce and DougR get their copy pasts from. "

A pity you never listened to Obama's speeches or words.




This whole thread is a statement that the source of our copy pastes (OBAMA) IS a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

"If you make less than $250,000 a year, your taxes will not increase a dime!"

NOT according to either of the bills. FALSE already

Neither bill has been passed into law, and Obama hasn't signed a health care reform law yet, so you're the one who is lying in this instance.


"Our administration will be the most transparent one ever. Our discussions about revisions to health care will be televised on C-Span for all to see."

FALSE already

This one is partially true (and so therefore, only partially false).



"If you like your health insurance you will be able to keep it!"

FALSE already

Since neither bill has been passed into law, and we don't know what the final bill will look like, and since Obama hasn't signed any health care reform law yet, you're the one who is lying in this instance as well.


"I'm going to change how Washington operates! I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

FALSE already

You're the one who is lying in this instance as well, since one of the problems that many of us have with the current bills before both houses is that Obama went much too far in trying to have a bipartisan bill. He gave away much of what his base wanted in order to court Republican votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:44 PM

beardedebruce, you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. The fact is that in the case of three of the things you have listed, you are lying, or at least spreading someone else's lies as though they were true.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: pdq
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:48 PM

"...since one of the problems that many of us have with the current bills before both houses is that Obama went much too far in trying to have a bipartisan bill. He gave away much of what his base wanted in order to court Republican votes."

Absurd, since ObamaCare got absolutely no Republican votes.

The endless changes were forced by reluctant Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

"Absurd, since ObamaCare got absolutely no Republican votes."

Indeed. He made the fundamental mistake of believing that the Repubs give a shit and that there might be some mileage in negotiating with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:57 PM

"but you are not entitled to your own facts."

And niether are you.



Obama gave NOTHING to the Republicans- the compromises from the liberal "ideal" were made to get the DEMOCRATS willing to pass it, and even then it required multiple bribes ( pork projects) that contribute nothing to Health Reform, but increase the costs. Present report by CBO is that the present bills will NOT meet the "no increased debt" that Obama claims is required.

The bills that are being considered are the choices: IF there are changes, it would be to bring both bills into a common one. Please tell me how EITHER will meet the claims that Obama made, or do you imply he will not sign whatever comes out of Congress??

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: GUEST,ArtBrooks in Pittsburgh
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:59 PM

Very true, pdq, except (of course) what is going through the Senate and House are two very different bills, and neither has much to do with Mr. Obama's ideas as stated during his campaign. Calling either "ObamaCare" is pretty silly. Obama is generally a centrist, and the compromises made by Congressional leadership with the left wing of the Democratic party and a few recalcitrant DINOs in order to get legislation through are far from anything he ever advocated. BTW, Rep Cao (R) Louisiana voted for the House bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

It's not necessary for the Republicans to accept what is offered in order for Obama to be making a bipartisan effort. All that is needed is for Obama to meet them halfway, which he more than did.

If the Republicans were not willing to compromise along side of the compromises that the Democrats were making, that is their fault and not Obama's. One can only go halfway and still be making compromises. Beyond halfway is not compromise, but capitulation. Obama capitulated because he gave away far more than half of what the pro health care reform constituency wanted in an effort to court Republican votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:08 PM

Look what the cat dragged in: a few disappointed Republicans.

Turnabouts fair play. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

Here is perhaps a way of saying in fewer words what I was trying to say in my last post...

Bi-partisan doesn't mean giving Republicans everything they want. It just means meeting them half way, and Obama met them far beyond halfway.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:38 PM

"...I will bring bi-partisanship to the nation's capital!"

*grin* He brought it...it's just that the 'partisans' on the other side didn't want to play. They seem to have some sort of pact to vote and obstruct anything he offers.

You really think 'bi-partisanship' means letting your opponents override all attempts to do anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:40 PM

The problem here really has nuthin' to do with lies but everything to do with the way people view the real world...

BB, as we know, only sees black and white... That is why he supported George Bush...

Other folks see the world in less absolute terms and therefore don't expect Obama to be able to achieve everything he campiagned on... I mean, given the fact that we do have a democracy and over 500 people putting their hands in the mix, it is unreasonable to expect one man to be able to rule absolutely...

But Bush tried... Obama, on the other hand, did say that he was going attemp to restore transparency and for those of us who are capable of seeing shades of gray, he has done a purdy good job considering the shambles of a country he inherited...

Face it, there is no magic wand... Things take time... It took Bush 8 years to scrww the country up as badly as he did so it may very well take that long to restore it back to health...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:58 PM

Excuses Excuses Bobby, truth and justice don't evolve

Ye need smeddum tae be richt coorse.....or richt kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 07:33 PM

Obamaphobia in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:26 PM

You have a better plan, Ake, ol' son??? I mean, let's bring a little reality into the discussion... The USA has a terribly messed up system of democracy... Well, it really isn't democracy at all, for that matter... It gives sparsely populated states, which tend to be more conservative, equlity with heavily populated states... A single voter in Utah has 77 times as much say in the Senate as does Amos in California...

So, what are ya going to do that isn't evolutionary except to look around and see that we are very slowly changing attitudes... It's a ying-yang kinda thing, Ake... We tried revolution in the 60's and had it stuffed right back in our faces... Okay, we did make progress but even then it was evolutionary...

Like I said, if you have any better ideas on how the progressive movement can jolly things along I'm sure that alot of US would love to hear them...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 10:19 PM

If anyone took the time to read the references cited in the first post (and in other places) they would note that (1) Obama did campaign for the public option -- it is in his campaign literature -- that's what is referred to as your campaign where I come from -- and (2) that he lied about it. Period. Make of it what you will. I think it is part of a strange failure of nerve (or maybe there never was any nerve).   


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:41 AM

I read them, but I was also hearing, in my memory, the things he invariably said after every instance when I heard him say anything positive about the public option, which was that while it would be nice, it wasn't critical.

However, having said all of that, I have to retract what I said about Obama not campaigning on the public option. Apparently he did campaign on it in a few specific contexts, like in Iowa and in front of groups like Family Planning. I just heard some excerpts on Olbermann. Looks like Obama stuck his foot in his mouth in a very big way when he said he didn't campaign on the public option.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 07:51 AM

It is so obvious what the republicans are up to! They are going to fight tooth and nail just as they did against Social Security, Medicare, and every other piece of legislation that benefits the working man. Their hope is to create enough discord to get them back into power and they don't give a damn how they do it.

As bad as I dislike Rush Limbaugh I have to admire his honesty when he said "I WANT OBAMA TO FAIL". Sure he's a fat head and a drop out but he says what he thinks.The problem is, he doesn't think! he reacts like a snail when you pour salt on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 08:29 AM

Well, to be fair... Look, folks, it's politics... The right wing also happens to be the loudspeakers for the corporations and the corporations have corraled all the wealth in the country so they use their stockpiles of money to hire/support all kinds of right winged think tanks that hire people that do nothin' but go to work every day and scour the newspapers and other sources for stuff to make Obama look bad... That, believe it or not, is al these people are hired to do??? And they do it well... I mean, if they don't then the 4righties will find someone else to dig deeper...

It reminds me of a college professor I had... I think it was biology but I wpouldn't swear to it... Anyway, there are these micro-organisms that live on our skin... Blown up under a microscope they look like stuff outtta Star wars... Purdy ugly sumabiches... Anyway, the point is if you were to take any person you know and remove everything but these nasty critters and that was all you could see you would still clearly recognize the Joe, or Jill or even Marylin Monroe... The point is that under a microscope things aren't quite as pretty and if you dig and dig and dig, sho nuff, this is what you find... Alot of little micro-organisms...

I mean, lets get real here for one minute... Obama ain't blown a million people like Bush did and that don't take no microscope to see...

You Obama haters have at it... Yer really looking quite foolish here... Like who cares about a public option compared to tax cuts to the wealthy which crippled the US economy or the bombing of kids???

I mean, let's keep some level of perspective here, folks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 08:43 AM

Well whatever criticisms you may lay at Obama's door, he is the first president in history to do anything like this ...

   
... click here ...



Why does this make some Americans so angry?


Seems like they really resent having to think of anyone less fortunate than themselves.


What a ridiculous farce it is that the peple who didn't want a public option are the ones who are complaining that they didn't get it.

The rest are thankful that they got something and that the people who wanted to keep it from them didn't destroy it for a change.


Well I'm sure it will be the first thing to go in the next republican administration.


BB will be happy then.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 08:47 AM

Oh yes ...

an interesting qoute ffrom the article I linked ...

"The House version still includes a public option and also differs on how to pay for the reform."

how very interesting ...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 08:50 AM

The right wing will never be happy, lox... They have been reduced to whiners, sceamers and crybabies...

Hey, sour grapes are just that.... Sour...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 08:55 AM

Politics without compassion is tyranny.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:13 AM

Amos is, of course, completely free to say anything, true or not, that will spread around his bitterness and acerbiv dislike about all things Bush. And likely to do so, as well.

But that does not make his statements judicious, even-tempered, fair-minded, or accurate.

The great tragedy of Bush's promise of bi[partisan process is that when he tried it he got mugged by bitter minded naysayers and mindless obstructionists who would rather do anything than improve conditions for the nation

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:17 AM

That's hardly true. The Democrats caved to pretty much everything that Bush wanted to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:23 AM

Bush never tried bi-partisanship... From day one he came in with his right wing guns a'blazin'... I will give him credit for keeping one promise, that is... Bush said he would change the tone in Washington and he sho nuff did...

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:29 AM

Relax everyone.

Go back to what started this thread.

These notes are the evidence that Obama CAMPAIGNED on a public option? Have a look at what is in quotes and what isn't on the first one. Have a look at the dates for the rest. Note that the campaign ended Nov 2 2008. Relax everyone and keep in mind that Dailykos blog isn't exactly an unimpeachable source.

    In the 2008 Obama-Biden health care plan on the campaign's website, candidate Obama promised that "any American will have the opportunity to enroll in [a] new public plan." [2008]

    – During a speech at the American Medical Association, President Obama told thousands of doctors that one of the plans included in the new health insurance exchanges "needs to be a public option that will give people a broader range of choices and inject competition into the health care market." [6/15/09]

    – While speaking to the nation during his weekly address, the President said that "any plan" he signs "must include...a public option." [7/17/09]

    – During a conference call with progressive bloggers, the President said he continues "to believe that a robust public option would be the best way to go." [7/20/09]

    – Obama told NBC's David Gregory that a public option "should be a part of this [health care bill]," while rebuking claims that the plan was "dead." [9/20/09]

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 09:34 AM

Sawzaw and Bruce give shining examples of the brilliant thinking so crucial to Republican "governance". The pinnacle of their rhetoric seems to be a variation of the child's game "I know I am but what are you?"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:15 AM

After 8 years of defending a retard their debating skills outta be sharp as a pin...

(There you go again, Boberdz, usin' the "r" word...)

Okay, not a retard... Mentally challenged... That any better???

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:47 PM

"The right wing also happens to be the loudspeakers for the corporations "

Oh??

Just look at the funding for Obama in the election- MOST of what he got was from corporations, Unions, and the wealthy.

Yes, he did get more in "small" contributions than McCann- but he got a LOT more in actual dollars from all those special intersts that supposedly control ( only) the Republicans.



Obama: Bought and paid for.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:52 PM

National health care works in the UK and it could work here if we could get the profiteers off our backs.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:02 PM

"Obama: Bought and paid for."


Your logic leaves a lot to be desired, bb... there are no such implications in an analysis of his contributions. If you insist, though, we can extend the analogy to....

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:32 PM

Yes, but if he is bought and paid for, it's by the people who don't want health care reform of the sort that progressives want. Which means he is bought and paid for by the people who are on your side of the health care debate, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:35 PM

Bobert,

If you wanted you could say Functionally illiterate.

That is true.


And a major handicap for a political executive ...

... how's he meant to have any idea of context, either historical or financial, or any understanding of the job he is meantr to be doing if he can't even string a coherent sentence together.

Some people call this attitude snobbish.

Some medical practitioners have no qualificationsa and no licence.

If they are caught they go to Jail.

Yet a moron like Bush is allowed to have executive power over the lives of millions of people.


Obama is simply cleverer, better informed and a nicer guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: DougR
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:38 PM

Carol: I'm beginning to believe that you wouldn't recognize a "fact" if one jumped up and smacked you in the face!

Can you deny that Obama made the promises I and BB accuse him of lying about? Another one: "I will not sign future bills into law if they are loaded with pork." What a laugh. Check the pork in the so-called stimulus bill (that has stimulated nothing!) Check the soon to be law health care overhaul bill. Of course I guess many of you see nothing wrong with buying votes as Harry Reid did. I didn't hear Obama proclaim that he wouldn't sign a bill with such shenanigans in it. Quite to the contrary, he would sign it if the bill required him to send Michele back to Chicago for the duration of his term in office.

McGrath: your question about whether or not passage of the bill would mean that some people would lose the health insurance they have now. Damn right it will. Ask any senior citizen of which there are hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) who have Medicare Advantage if they are going to get to keep their plan. Unless you live in Florida you WON'T! Harry Reid bought Senator Nelson's vote (of Florida)by allowing folks who reside in that state who are on Medicare Advantage to keep their insurance but those who have the plan in all other states are SOL.

Doug

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:55 PM

DougR, of the ones you listed before (which didn't include the one about pork), he has not done what you are accusing him of doing or having done (or not done) in at least three of them and one he has only partially done or not done. You can't hide your falsifications by changing the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: DougR
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:10 PM

Carol: Which of those I listed has he NOT done?

McGrath: for an interesting insight into what we in the US are in for with Obama Care, I would suggest you read a opinion piece in today's edition of The Wall Street Journal titled, "What Doctors and Patients Have to Lose Under ObamaCare," by Dr. Scott Gottlieb, an internist and resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. He is a former senior official at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, and is a partner in a firm that invests in health-care companies.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:11 PM

I've already answered that one twice. Read the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:12 PM

It is unfortunate that we won't have "ObamaCare", as originally envisioned by the President, rather than the alternative that the Congress has come up with. Of course, for the benefit of those who aren't listening, there are currently TWO very different bills that have yet to be reconciled and a compromise version approved by the House and Senate (which is far from assured).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama caught in blatant lying
From: Lox
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 05:15 PM

100

boo!