BS: Is Google getting political ?

Subject: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 08:39 AM

Is it my imagination, or is the Google logo displayed at the moment ( Xmas 2009) an anti-nuclear statement?

Just in case you are reading this thread after the Xmas hols and they have discarded the picture, , I have saved it here

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 08:50 AM

It ties in with the (political?) message of peace that is at the centre of christmas I would think.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: maire-aine
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:21 AM

I was grew up believing that Jesus Christ was the Prince of Peace. What is "political" about peace?

M

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:22 AM

Fine and fair. It's a message both sides should subscribe to.

Why stockpile A-bombs when everybody knows the first user is toast.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: maire-aine
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:22 AM

Pardon my awkward grammar. I grew up believing...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:53 AM

A)It's a message to which both sides should subscribe.

B) Why stockpile A-bombs when everybody knows THAT the first user WOULD BE toast ?

       QED

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 10:04 AM

Thanks for the grammar lesson rat, but I think they all understood my meaning, which is obviously more than you managed, since you were concentrating on something else at the time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 10:21 AM

Presumably, Google is made up of human beings who 'could' be concerned with the well-being of other human beings. I think a little holiday reminder of it is fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 10:30 AM

Is that a bomb? I thought it was a space ship, seeing that ours was a planet of peace (if only).

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 11:01 AM

Of course, if you actually want the bomb, then I'm sure Google will apologise for offending you!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 11:19 AM

Peace sign, space shuttle, fireworks...somehow I'm missing the objectionable symbolism. Explain, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 12:28 PM

I think a certain 'doth protest too much' disingenuousness is being manifested in these responses. The CND symbol [even if disguised under such a designation as 'Peace Sign'], however worthy in intention and sentiment, does represent one certain political view: one indeed, no doubt, to which most Mudcatters would probably subscribe; but still political nevertheless.

The OP's point was surely that if, as is presumably generally regarded as the case, Google offers itself as a disinterested medium for various opinions to be expressed, it would be seemly. would it not, for it to remain objective, rather than itself to come down on one side or another — as it would appear to be doing by offering this political symbol without comment in its "holiday" logo.

Whatever one's own views, this is surely the case, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:17 PM

No, I don't think that it is. Having been reminded by another 'Catter via PM of the "original" meaning, I have to say that, as a USAian, I would never think of that symbol as indicating nuclear disarmament, and having some sort of direct association with left-wing politics, rather than peace in general. I'd really assume that the people who run Google, which is an American-centered company, think the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:31 PM

The symbol is based on the semaphore positions for the letters CND. Don't lecture me about it, please. I knew its designers and original users; I shared a Hampstead flat with the author of the movement's theme song 'The H-Bomb's Thunder'; he could not sing a note, so asked me after the first draft to sing it over to him to see how it sounded, so I can claim to have been the first ever to sing that song which became a protest anthem for millions! I am a veteran of the first CND London-Aldermaston CND march, on which I played guitar in Karl Dallas's skiffle group [there is a pic of me doing so on Folk Britannia], and marched alongside John Hasted, Pat Arrowsmith, Mike Randle — these may be names that mean little to you innocents over there who have stolen our sign as a vanilla 'Peace Symbol' — but, believe me, wherever Google may be based, its reach and aspirations are worldwide & I do not believe they don't know that that is a highly politicised symbol here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:33 PM

Good cripes. We object to peace now? Even if Google purposely used the nuclear disarmament to indicate a wish for universal peace, which I doubt, surely the sentiment is laudable. Not to mention I should think it would be less controversial than "Merry Christmas!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:39 PM

Whatever

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:51 PM

There are 'post cards' from different places. Google Holiday Logo There are palm trees in one and snowpersons in another, there's a cabin by a lake with a volcano in the background, then there is this one from outer space, with the sun, the space shuttle and 'peace on earth. Different holiday greetings from different places. I don't know the origins of the 'peace sign', but I'm pretty sure it is a fairly pleasant, mostly apolitical (different even from the 60s) symbol to most people now.

Perhaps it IS political, because the space shuttle certainly isn't from Zimbabwe or Mexico...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:52 PM

Ebbie — I think you cross-posted with mine. Read my last two posts, please. It is NOT just a matter of Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 01:56 PM

What artbrooks said.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:31 PM

Mike the GM, when you query whether Google should remain objective "rather than coming down on one side or the other", are you saying that it is no more "seemly" for Google to promulgate "vanilla" peace as it would be if they displayed war! war! war! scenes? If that is your belief, I can understand why the no nukes/peace sign upsets you. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:41 PM

Sorry. The above was I/me (depending upon how correct I am being) *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:52 PM

MtheGM, your posts on here (and on other threads) are shining beacons of dispassionate reasoning and fact in the midst of a sea of (mostly) fuzzy waffle.

Long may you contiunue to post on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:57 PM

I don't find your post very clearly expressed I fear, Ebbie. Could you perhaps clarify the point you are making?

The no nukes sign doesn't 'upset' me. I have expressed no opinion as to that. I was merely endeavouring to interpret the doubt expressed by the OP as to whether such a sign in Google's logo was appropriate in the case of what is supposed to be a forum open to opinions from all sides, which is surely what google purports to be. This seemed to me a point that many posters to the thread had failed to take on board. Of course evryone hopes for peace: but expressing this desire with a symbol which has always had a particular political axe to grind [even if some innocents over that side hadn't appreciated the fact] is perhaps not the eftest way to express this aspiration? That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:02 PM

ah, MtheGM.. symbols, like folk songs, get co-opted and transmogrified(To resort to technical terms).

Origins are important, and one of the blessings of Mudcat is that so many are here who DO know about various origins. I have been involved in several complex debates about various song origins, and learned much.

Because the symbol was so popular & easy to make, it has become, like it or not, part of the UNICODE set of symbols with 'peace symbol' as its name.

I am glad to know more of the origins, but you can't put the genie back into the bottle..(or some other muddled metaphor)

(I've been trying to make it by typing alt+262E, but I may have the wrong font enabled. .....Oh, so I see..."You need a font that supports this character to even have a hope of seeing it correctly in the browser.")

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:04 PM

Since my comment was pretty much ignored, maybe because it was buried, that symbol doesn't mean anything more than 'peace' to most people.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:05 PM

☮ ! ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:11 PM

I did it in Opera, using this little program

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM

As the OP, I can assure everybody that I am not in the least "upset" by the appearance of the "no-nukes" symbol.

I do query the appropriateness of such a political statement on Google, just as I would query the appropriateness of such a statement on the home page of AOL or YouTube.

A dove carrying an olive branch flying in tandem with the space shuttle would not have been beyond the creative talents of the Google artists, surely ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:14 PM

☛clever, hmmm?>☚

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM

Murray...since Google has many thousands of techs, it is anyone's guess exactly who designed and OR approved that particular little holiday logo. I'm sure they COULD have done any design,,, *shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 03:52 PM

==Since my comment was pretty much ignored, maybe because it was buried, that symbol doesn't mean anything more than 'peace' to most people==

Define 'most people', Jeri. I don't want to stir things up, but the rest of the world sometimes gets not unirritated by the bland American assumption that what they might think on any topic has to be the opinion of 'most people'. We are a small island, but there are quite a lot of people here too, you know? Europe is a smallish continent, but...   

BillD - you can run a takeover of the symbol to irrelevant websites till you are blue in the face: the fact remains that it is based on the semaphore for the letters CND.

Artbrooks saw reason and copped out. [So did Jeri, but has copped back in again!]

Murray, many thanks for your kind comment of 2.52PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 05:29 PM

"Artbrooks copped out"? Oh, not really. I am always interested in historical trivia. However, you are beating a dead horse of your own invention. This discussion is rather analogous of a person saying the ancient Indians (either kind) were really Nazis because they used swastikas in their religious art. What either symbol represented once upon a time to a specific group of people has nothing to do with what it means today. If you don't choose to accept that, it's your issue, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

From Wikipedia:

"The Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) is an organization that advocates unilateral nuclear disarmament by Britain. It also campaigns for international nuclear disarmament and tighter international arms regulation through agreements such as the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. It opposes military action that may result in the use of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons and the building of nuclear power stations in the UK.

"CND was formed in 1957 and since that time has periodically been at the forefront of the peace movement in the United Kingdom. It claims to be Europe's largest single-issue peace campaign. Since 1958, it has organised the Aldermaston March, which is held over the Easter weekend from Trafalgar Square, London, to the Atomic Weapons Establishment near Aldermaston."

Is this what is troublin' you, cousin? I don't know about other Americans but I had never heard of such an organization/project. And since I have no energy invested in the pros and cons of the issue I still don't see any inappropriateness of a private body advocating nuclear disarmament in the cause of peace. If Google were a government (The State of Google), perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:17 PM

If nothing else, I hope that this discussion has proved educational to a few people.

I actually was unaware that the "no-nukes " symbol, which was such a powerful and iconic emblem when first minted , had become watered down across the Atlantic to become the "vanilla Peace Symbol" as MtheGM so aptly describes it. When I see the symbol, it still shouts CND to me. Obviously, that is no longer the case for a large number of people. More's the pity, IMHO.

Your swastika analogy is a red herring, Art, as there is nobody alive today who sees the swastika as anything other than a symbol of Nazism. There are however, many thousands, if not millions of people alive today who, like me, see what you call your "Peace Symbol" as a powerful, and specifically targeted anti-nuclear symbol.

"Two nations, separated by a common symbol" ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Mmm, rather surprised that anyone misunderstands the classic CND anti-nuclear symbol!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:41 PM

Oh, I'm 30's & English - so I imagine most anyone of my generation would recognise the same image pretty clearly?

AND quickly, the CND marchers were anything but non-political!!! Yes the CND sign is very political - for good or ill depending on how you feel about it - but what it ain't is fluffy hippy bunny's for huggy peace 'n' stuff.

I expect you'll hear more from those who were in the thick of it all, after the hols!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:46 PM

If you had never heard of the acronymn, CS, not surprising at all. Classic or not, it appears to be/have been a UK thing.

Does the heat stem from the suggestion that Britain disarm itself (Does the UK have a stockpile of nuclear weapons?) unilaterally?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:50 PM

""There are however, many thousands, if not millions of people alive today who, like me, see what you call your "Peace Symbol" as a powerful, and specifically targeted anti-nuclear symbol.""

And the removal of nuclear weapons from the world would not be a significant step toward the attainment of peace worldwide?

Is that your point, or do you have some logical reason for seeing a desire not to be blown to hell as a political stance?

I think, notwithstanding the fact that the originators were left wing, that desire is shared by all shades of the political spectrum, making this a complete non argument to which I shall devote no more of my time.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 06:58 PM

The Eighties were the major era for CND work - the cruise missiles were the big issue then.

I've never really thought about it, but clearly different continents have different movements - which is why I think CND is 'classic' but folks your way might never have heard of them!

So, what's the US's equivalent of CND? There must be an organisation like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:13 PM

Don, I fail to see what you are getting your knickers in a twist about.

Everybody would love to see a world free of nuclear weapons, but unilateral disarmament, which is what CND is all about, is a contentious platform, and whether you, I, or anybody else agree or disagree with that particular stance is irrelevant. The fact remains, it is a contentious viewpoint.

I drew attention to the fact that Google had, as I thought at the time, made just such a contentious political statement. If they had used a dove of peace symbol, I would have thought no more of it. I am now satisfied that they were in fact not making a political statement, they were simply the victims of their own lack of in-depth knowledge.

If you do not see that it might not be entirely appropriate for Google, Microsoft, AOL, YouTube, Sky TV, or any other globally accessed interface to openly advertise a contentious political stance, then I am afraid I cannot explain further.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 07:14 PM

Google is, above all things, commercial. Whatever they feel will advance their bottom line, that's what they will go with. If anyone thought otherwise, they just bought into the last "stance" Google portrayed.

Biz is biz is biz. It's as true of newer startups as it is true nowadays of older, "trusted" brands-- biz is biz is biz.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:17 PM

Unbelievable...........Is this a "fight" over a symbol of peace? LMAO.....Only at the 'Cat.

There is no doubt to the origin but maybe we all need to take a detour to the CND Website and note they use it on the cover of their "PEACE Education Pack" as you can see. Now read the paragraph at the top. The first sentence really........It says(emphasis mine):

"CND Peace Education aims to empower young people with knowledge on peace and nuclear issues and support them in making their own decisions. Activities are all based on co-operative and active learning."

To help you a bit more if you choose not to go deeper on their sight, it also says, regarding the symbol history:

"The symbol almost at once crossed the Atlantic. Bayard Rustin, a close associate of Martin Luther King had come over from the US in order to take part in that first Aldermaston March. He took the symbol back to the United States where it was used on civil rights marches. Later it appeared on anti-Vietnam War demonstrations and was even seen daubed in protest on their helmets by American GIs. Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol. It appeared on the walls of Prague when the Soviet tanks invaded in 1968, on the Berlin Wall, in Sarajevo and Belgrade, on the graves of the victims of military dictators from the Greek Colonels to the Argentinian junta, and most recently in East Timor.

I have to believe, based on that and the season and the other postcards GOOGLE used as the days went along, that it was simply another way to say "Peace On Earth"..........perhaps to a passing alien spaceship or whatever. I can't see how that is too political or at least it isn't blatantly so to my limited mind. Now if they had said "Kill All the Fuckin' Jews" or "Hang the Niggers" I would definitely have a problem as I would hope to believe the rest of you would as well.

........geeziz..............

Murray old friend, I love ya' and may I wish you a Merry Christmas or a Happy Holiday or even a Sloppy Easter Egg? Whatever you want I also send my wishes for peace in wherever and whenever through whatever!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:41 AM

"The symbol almost at once crossed the Atlantic. [..] Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol."

How interesting - I did not know that it had become adopted as a universal 'peace' symbol internationally!

When I was growing up CND (among middle-Englanders) was considered quite a radical and militant organisation. And my guess is that the overwhelming majority of members at that time were pretty left-wing.

Clearly that was here and then. The symbol means something more general and apolitical now, throughout the rest of the world at any rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:48 AM

For anyone interested, the major story of the time was the women's peace camp at Greenham Common

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:05 AM

If it gets Brown out - good news!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:53 AM

just type PEACE into google images

on that evidence alone there is no political intent - nor did they go down the rocky religious route

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:03 AM

On what evidence? Expound your logic please, Rafflesbear. I don't follow. --

Intent is not all — there could well be political overtone without intent — indeed, does not this thread demonstrate such to be the case here?

I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.

Macaroni! - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:10 AM

"The symbol is based on the semaphore positions for the letters CND. Don't lecture me about it, please"

by the way - the semaphore position for C is a diagonal from middle to top left - notably absent

perhaps we can put this down to the old saying "if you can remember the sixties you weren't there" and therefore proof positive that MtheGM WAS there :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:06 AM

The upstroke is the C — do a semaphore C for yourself & you will find your left arm is vertical.

Oddly enough, I wasn't 'there' in the 60s - in the sense that, just married [Mar 59], establishing self in new career as teacher [Sep 58 ···], leaving London for Cambridge for my wife's 'mature scholar' education [62], I was inactive in folk & in the hippy thing [for which I was a bit old being by then in my 30s] & all the other manifestations of '60s culture': becoming a freelance critic — theatre {for The Guardian] and folk-music [for The Times] — as well as a teacher at end of 1969 [first reviews in both papers appeared in same week in Oct 69].

So forget the 60s — I can remember the 30s, Sonny-Jim: lived right thru WWii in 40s; National Service officer, University, & career-launch thru 50s — so as the [alas deceased] lady said to you: Dont·Come·The·Cowboy·With·Me...]

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:49 AM

am I missing something?

every point of reference I can find shows C as I described it

looking from the front

/   =A down and to the left
-   =B horizontal to the left
\   =C up and to the left
!   =D vertically up

all with left hand pointing to the floor = downstroke

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:52 AM

Not to be pedantic (oh heck, admit it, Brooks - you LOVE being pedantic), but what happened to that signaler's right arm - the one that is supposed to be up at a 45° angle?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:09 AM

That, I admit, is indeed how I find it as I have just googled it.

But that was not, as I recall it, how it was when I passed 'signalling 2nd class badge' in Boy Scouts in 1944: when, to my recollection, A was down left, B horizontal left, C vertical left, D vertical right &c. Perhaps it has been modified. Certainly that must still have been how it was, when ex-Major George Parker suggested the design of the badge based on it to his colleague Peter Cadogan, one of original CND founders, in the staffroom at Chesterton School Cambridge in 1957 when CND was founded; when I was Head of English in that school, 1966-68, George Parker himself told me the tale [though Peter C had left by then & was fully employed by CND & Committee of 100, though his wife Joyce still taught Music]. The upstroke on that old system therefore did for the C & the D, while the N was the two down-at-acute-angle arms as still the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:20 AM

the opportunity for the German army to confuse

"Take Cover"

with

"Take Dover"

would appear significant !! :-)

MtheGM I wish you a happy and peaceful new year

Rafflesbear

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:31 AM

Thank you indeed. And the like to you.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 10:00 AM

The "peace symbol" as it's currently understood in the US is so apolitical that it appears on greeting cards, shopping bags, baby booties, you name it. It has evolved into a secular symbol standing for the same "Peace on Earth, goodwill toward men" sentiments traditionally embodied in more traditional Christian symbols of the season, but without bringing Baby Jesus into the picture.

Such was not always the case even in the US. The symbol made its way to these shores during the Vietnam era and was closely associated with the anti-war movement. It was despised by more hawkish elements of US society as "The Track of the American Chicken". In 1969, walking into certain bars while wearing a piece of clothing emblazoned with a peace sign was a good way to get your ass kicked.

After the Vietnam war ended, the symbol pretty much fell from public view for about twenty years. When it made its reappearance, largely courtesy of the music scene, it no longer carried its former specifically anti-war message. The kids who were wearing it grew up after the war was over. They were not protesting against a war, but making a statement in favor of a more peaceful, sustainable lifestyle. It's in that light that most Americans view the symbol today. Yes, it's a statement of ideals, but those ideals don't necessarily have anything to do with politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 10:34 AM

aye it is

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:01 PM

"I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning..."


gee... *I* was just trying to help last night by acknowledging real origins that I had not known about before.....while trying to put in perspective what it has become. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to feel guilty now for not 'knowing' earlier.

I marched in Washington DC in a couple of the huge war protests, and wore buttons with that symbol on them, and in those crowds of hundreds of thousands, I doubt there were many who were aware of CND origins. I guess the ocean was much wider then, without the WWW to keep us colonials informed. *wry smile"

I will now retire to the far corner and try on my hair shirt..... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:42 PM

It may not be more applicable to lambast us 'innocent Yanks' for not being aware or observant of the symbol's original meaning than it would be to berate us for not acknowledging or celebrating the 'original' meaning of the various aspects and icons of Hallowe'en. So there. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 03:43 PM

Yes, Ebbie. But now that you have been made aware, you seem to be digging yourself behind a 'don't care if it was, so pooh·2·U' wall of subjective self-regarding inward-looking insouciance. You guys over there can think what you like, and Jeri can go on insisting that 'most people' view it as you lot over there do. But now you know that 50,000,000 people in this country, and who knows how many more in the rest of Europe, view it differently, how can you still persist in denying the possibility of another POV? And do you think that Google [who are the predominant provider in this country as well, you know] shouldn't have known the origin — it is their business to know such things, isn't it?

[BTW we didn't even do Halloween & pumpkins & trick-or-treat and all that bollox till the last few years when your pernicious commercialised influence caught on. It was certainly never part of my childhood.]

So there right back 2U -
; ~)§

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM

I know there's another point of view. I simply don't believe it's significant to the vast majority of Google users, whether they're in this thread or simply not complaining about the 'peace' part of the logo. You certainly have a right to be enjoy being offended by anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

OK, OK, MtheGM!

HOWEVER. None of you has told us what is actually so offensive about the no-nukes symbol.

After I asked - but NOT in response to my question - someone did remark on the unacceptable 'UNILATERAL' nature of the CND effort.

Incidentally I take umbrage at the "vanilla" label. To me, the symbol is a powerful reminder of what we are all on about.

It is very true that we in the US have been most fortunate in not having to face war in our homeland in our memory but that is not something AGAINST us. May YOU be so lucky. And if that be vanilla..

Backatcha, jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

'Offensive'/'offended' - used in last two posts: not quite the right word[s]. Let me draw your attention again to the title of this thread, which the OP chose to give it. The only point I have been making thruout is that the symbol under discussion has a specific history, having originated in what was unarguably a political statement — that the UK should unilaterally disarm itself of all nuclear weapons. Whether or not one agrees with that position or not [I did at first but developed doubts as to its viability later], it is a political statement. The fact that the symbol was later adapted for other purposes does not alter the fact of its original meaning. But a whole lot of the replies from the US were predicated on the suggestion that, because they didn't know that, it couldn't be the case; or if it was it didn't matter anyhow because only what Americans think matters [how else is one to interpret Jeri's 'Most people', for example?] — an odd sort of confused, illogical, being in denial as to the facts of the case. No point saying OK! OK! to me, my dears: I am not getting heated. But some of you seem to be getting a bit agitated at having unwelcome facts drawn to your attention — going into denial, I say again, aren't you?...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:49 PM

Why would you assume I meant Americans by 'most people'? You say the symbol has a history. I'm not arguing about that. I just don't think it means the same as it used to.

As an aside, there are 'swastikas' all over South Korea--they mark Buddhist temples. (Sort of freaked me out when I first saw them, until someone explained to me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:52 PM

I don't feel heated in the least, Mike. But I will continue to point out that Google is not a governmental body or taxpayer-supported and has its roots in the US. As such, it is probably as "innocent" (read 'naive') as we. And is entitled to it own opinions. Google, as Susan pointed out, is a commercial enterprise. I'm sure that if it were aware of the sordid history of a peace symbol it would desist. :)

And if the display of the CND/Peace symbol is not "offensive", why is anyone offended?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM

Jeri - it still means the same here. If it didn't the OP would not even have started this thread, would he? But, since you persist in denying that it can still mean the same to us as it always did — though we are here to tell you that it does, and you are not — I still wonder what you can possibly have meant, within that context, by 'most people', if not that only American opinion counts IYO.

Nobody is 'offended', I repeat, Ebbie; there are just some who feel that a supposedly impartial forum-provider is acting inappropriately in using an explicitly political symbol as a logo. You say you now realise it has an explicitly political history, but still appear to be denying the implications of this.

If Google is a commercial enterprise, is it not being a little unwise in acting in a fashion liable to alienate, or at least give pause to [as it clearly has done - hence, I repeat, this thread] a substantial segment of its clientele?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Well, the image has disappeared, except for this archive.

In context, it sure seems like it was not intended to be political. I wonder if Google knows it was seen that way by so many? I wonder what they will do next year?

In a world so polarized and divided, it is hard to avoid upsetting, offending or 'bothering' to some degree various factions.

[Just remembered that years ago, the Eudora email program used to use a rotating ☯ (Yin-Yang) symbol when waiting for mail. Some religious group... (Buddhist, I think) complained that it 'had deeper significance', and Eudora removed it.]

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:43 PM

My mistake... Eudora provided a WAY to remove it and substitute something else.

hmmm.. I distinctly remembered my version being changed.


But while Googling, I found this:
"I place this action in the same category as those Southern Baptists who
objected to the Unix checking software called "Satan" and caused a version
to be distributed renamed "Santa" - "
----------------------------------------------------------------------



(I know, Mike, this is different from your specific concerns. It is just one more illustration, to me, of the difficulties of navigating the complexities of political/cultural/religious references.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM

"Innocents, vanilla, bland"...how mature and great technique. Does that come with a virtual pat on the head?

What a bunch of fucking crap. Murray, I echo Spaw...luvyadarlin', but really!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:22 PM

I'd be interested in knowing if that symbol has the same restricted meaning to the adolescent and adult grandchildren of those who are so concerned by its "misuse" on this side of the ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:35 AM

Dear Kat, What's with this 'virtual pat on the head'? Why are you & Ebbie & Jeri having so much difficulty coming to terms with the fact that the way you view things over there are not always identical to the way we do over here [or, to accommodate artbrooks' last query, some of the older among us do]; and then, when this is pointed out to you, falling back [as you are doing here] with accusations that you are being patronised? Nobody is trying to patronise you; there are no 'virtual pats on the head' involved: we are just trying to point out that yours is not the only world-view in existence. But, oh dear me, that won't do! 'What a bunch of fucking crap,' you exclaim [if anyone doesn't believe me, just scroll up two to Kat's last post'.

So who, pray, is patronising whom? Who is virtually patting whom on the head. What a bunch of fucking crap right back 2U, Kat.

HNY just the same - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:54 AM

OK. What do you think we should do about it, Mike? Given that we obviously don't have the visceral   response to the issue that you and some others do, what would you like us to do? Or say? Would you like us to apologize? Would it suffice if we apologized for the insensitivity and ignorance of Google? I don't happen to be a s Google stockholder so I doubt that my opinion would count for much.

Incidentally, you have said or implied several times that Google is an "impartial" entity. Who says? Do they specifically say so?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:20 AM

Why, Ebbie: I think you should simply adjust to the fact that this sign under consideration was political in origin and retains such overtones to some; rather than denouncing this fact as, in some way I can't quite fathom, patronising to you and hence 'a load of fucking crap' [Kat]; or as not what 'most people' think [Jeri]. What else has ever been implied?

Google's Philosophy statement in their Culture segment runs in part:—

===Google's founders have often stated that the company is not serious about anything but search... Google puts users first when it comes to our online service===

I would interpret that as an intent of impartiality, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:56 AM

I am not comfortable with MtheGM speaking for virtually the entire british nation possibly including me - indeed he hints that much of Europe agrees with his viewpoint -

"50,000,000 people in this country, and who knows how many more in the rest of Europe, view it differently"

As someone who on his own admission was heavily involved in the CND movement his viewpoint is undoubtedly coloured by his experience

Things change and a great deal of time has passed since the symbol first appeared - as artbrooks suggests there will undoubtedly be many who have grown up since who know nothing of these origins

I accept that I can no longer tell people that I am feeling gay without conveying a false impression. MtheGM accepts that the semaphore signalling system is different now than it was when he was in the scouts. I also accept that the CND symbol has taken on a far greater meaning than it originally had and I would have thought that the originators would be PROUD that it has.

if 50,000,000 people agree with MtheGM let them or some of them join this thread and support the argument because at the moment all we can say for sure is that 3 people think that way and one of those seems prepared to accept that it has changed. "Clearly that was here and then. The symbol means something more general and apolitical now, throughout the rest of the world at any rate."

In the meantime this is one Brit who is quite comfortable (and proud) that the people of this land have created a worldwide symbol of peace however it originated

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:12 AM

Here's what the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament have to say about how the disarmament symbol has been used abroad and in other contexts:

"The Disarmament Symbol goes global
This "CND logo" was not however confined to these shores. The "peace symbol", as it is usually dubbed outside Britain, was first brought over to the United States by Bayard Rustin, a key figure in the civil rights movement of the 1960s and a protestor at the 1958 Aldermaston march. Consequently, the symbol was used in civil rights marches and later spread to anti-Vietnam War demonstrations. Since then it has appeared around the world not only as a sign for nuclear disarmament but also as the international hallmark of peace." [...]
"The Freedom of the Peace Symbol
[example of an advert using CND symbol was here]
Although specifically designed for the anti-nuclear movement it has quite deliberately never been copyrighted. No one has to pay or to seek permission before they use it. A symbol of freedom, it is free for all. This of course sometimes leads to its use, or misuse, in circumstances that CND and the peace movement find distasteful. It is also often exploited for commercial, advertising or general fashion purposes. We can't stop this happening and have no intention of copyrighting it. All we can do is to ask commercial users if they would like to make a donation. Any money received is used for CND's peace education and information work."

In response to a message below, I find it dissapointing somewhat that the CND logo has been diluted to more general terms. I find it dissapointing as I clearly remember when growing up in the Eighties the stand that the women at Greenham Common made against Cruise Missiles being stationed there (I believe this camp was the longest lasting in the world). The CND logo really meant something very specific in campaign terms, and people made vast efforts in campaigning against nukes (Greenham Common Peace Camp), it really wasn't just a token general 'symbol' and it still does mean something very strident to me.

I thought it interesting however that CND have chosen not to copywrite their logo, and have intentionally left it to be used by anyone who wishes to.
SO at the end of the day, I guess the choice was made by CND themselves to freely allow the disarmament logo to be used outside of their specific nuclear disarmament agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:27 AM

Oops my link to Greenham Common below didn't work - another here: BBC on the Women's Greenham Common Anti-Nukes Peace Camp

Heh, there's even a songbook!

Greenham Common Peace Camp Archive - Including Songbook!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:17 AM

Rafflesbear - Just to observe that, just as I mourn the pleasant word 'gay', unusable in its former meaning since pre-empted by an interest-group for their own purposes because they didn't like being called 'queer': with which I entirely sympathise - but no other adjective has quite that overtone of cheerful insouciance that 'gay' used to have, so I think it a pity the language should have lost it —

— so I regret the loss of the traditional, and beautiful,"white Noah's dove" symbol for Peace, in favour of this less meaningful in that context, but once much more meaningful in another, former, exclusively [tho never copyrighted as matter of policy - thank you for that, Crow Sister] for Unilateral-Disarmament-politics, connotation.

I think the languages of both semantics and symbolism are greatly the poorer for these two changes in interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:22 AM

"I think the languages of both semantics and symbolism are greatly the poorer for these two changes in interpretation."

Yes, me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:34 AM

In the interest of peace on Mudcat may I offer this contribution

peace symbol

this displays the controversial symbol together with the dove and an acknowledgement of the origins in CND - what more can anyone ask ?   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:53 AM

Well, this has been an interesting thread IMO.

At the very least, we have all learned something, and Mike's eloquent post above @ 5.17 sums up exactly my stance on the matter.

Maybe now we can let peace reign again on the 'Cat

Oh, and season's greetings to you too 'Spaw, I look forward to crossing swords again in the New Year !

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:41 AM

I mourn the pleasant word 'gay', unusable in its former meaning since pre-empted by an interest-group for their own purposes because they didn't like being called 'queer'....

In the US, at least, "queer" is a perfectly acceptable, even preferred, term of reference for many homosexuals, both male and female. It was once considered highly insultive, but the homosexual community seems to have adopted it as a way of stripping it of its power. It's members of the straight community who think "queer" is an insult while "gay" is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 10:20 AM

Sorry Bee-Dub........you can't be right on that as we're pathetic, dumbass, USAers, and we don't have the ability to think but simply to rape and pillage! All that is correct and right in the world resides in England. All that is ignorant and simpleminded lives here. Give up your quest for discussion as you have no right to an opinion. I now dismiss myself to the Dunce's Corner where I will piss on my head and sing, "God Save the Drag Queens".......................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 10:57 AM

..."All that is correct and right in the world resides in England" ...

hey Spaw, I live in Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 11:16 AM

...we're pathetic, dumbass, USAers, and we don't have the ability to think but simply to rape and pillage!

Speak for yourself. I prefer sacking over pillaging.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM

Remember, pillage and sack first, then burn!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 11:57 AM

""But now you know that 50,000,000 people in this country, and who knows how many more in the rest of Europe, view it differently,""

I suspect that 49,900,000 people this side of the pond don't actually give a damn MtheGM.

I don't recall you asking, nor me giving, permission for you to stand forth representing your views as my own.

You get one opinion only on this forum pal. and I will quite happily supply mine without outside assistance.

This matter is only sightly less important than whether you say "sidewalk" or "pavement", and not worth vilifying a nation to prove a point.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:12 PM

Don T —

This standard-form reply, held in my word-processor memory, is the only response I propose to make to your recent post:—

It is my principle to make no further answer than this to merely abusive posts addressed to me.

No further correspondence will be entered into.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:22 PM

Was the turnip too sharp for your tummies?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:28 PM

"I suspect that 49,900,000 people this side of the pond don't actually give a damn MtheGM."

While I suspect it's meaningless to speak of UK V's US 'interpretations' of the symbol. My guess is that the only people who might "give a damn" about the CND disarmament logo, are people who actually "gave a damn" about the Anti-Nuclear Weapons campaign (for which it was designed) in the first place. And many did give a damn, and spent a great deal of time fighting against that.

Of course not all of the UK gave a damn about nuclear weapons being here, even in the Eighties. And not all of England give a damn about Nukes being here now. In fact many actively *applauded* the UK stationing nuclear bombs here: all in the name of "PEACE" (ha ha) of course - which indeed is a very problematic issue as far as the overall discussion is concerned!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM

Peace. And out.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM

I asked this previously - but no-one answered.

Were or are there any equivalent *anti-nuclear* organisations in the US?

CND became most active during the 'cold war' period of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM

MtheGM - can you not see that rather than 50,000,000 people lining up behind you to support what you say, you and Murray are the only people on this thread who are holding this position

Look sergeant - all the others are out of step except my Tommy

if you insist on maintaining your lone crusade to turn the clock back then the post by Don T will not be the last abusive one you receive (I predict)

So far those good people from the western side of the pond have maintained relatively good humour in the face of your criticism of their "closed minds" - I put it to you that their minds are no more closed than yours and their argument is no less valid than your own. There are shades of opinion on this as to the current meaning of the symbol and as far as I can see yours is based on "this originally meant CND" while theirs is based on "thanks for telling us but we now believe it is used to mean peace"

If this thread can keep going over such a flimsy debate is it any wonder that there was no agreement at Copenhagen

There are actually much more serious matters on the nuclear debate that we could be discussing rather than 'is the logo grey or dark grey'

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:27 PM

Crow Sister, by and large, I don't think that the US ever had a really large "unified" anti-nuclear movement. That is (and all IMHO, of course) the ban-the-bomb people and the anti-reactor Luddites were largely separate. There were certainly exceptions, of course, but I think that most Americans thought (and think) of these as two very different issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:36 PM

"you and Murray are the only people on this thread who are holding this position"

Well, I think that the "position" (is it one?) being held (by three of us maybe ;-) ) so to speak, is simply one that it's rather a shame that such an initially focused and potent (political? Yes I think so!) symbol, has effectively become diminished to a general comfy 'feel good' sign, to stick on anything commercial - lollipops, burgers, greetings cards, you name it...

Anything really *meaningful* will arouse difference of opinion, but it appears that the disarmament logo is now a general diffuse 'nice' thing. No-one can disagree with 'Peace' per-se, but the CND movement were about TAKING SPECIFIC ACTION to secure it. Action which caused great difference of opinion! Like it or loathe it, it was a dynamic image representing dynamic people with a focused purpose, and certainly not amorphous generalised huggyness to be stuck on "Happy Holiday's" cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:45 PM

Crow Sister - the differentiation I make between yourself and the 2 Ms is that (if I've got it right) they do not acknowledge the meaning has changed and that therefore the inclusion by Google was political, while you wish that it had not changed but recognise that it has - and I think with that point of view there might be more support

Rafflesbear

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM

""if you insist on maintaining your lone crusade to turn the clock back then the post by Don T will not be the last abusive one you receive (I predict)""

Thing is Raffles, I dispute that my post was abusive.

When somebody asks me for my opinion, I will render it without rancour.

When he gives his opinion I will treat it with a degree of respect, whether or no I agree with it.

But when somebody arrogantly presumes to include me when telling the world his opinion, I feel that I have the right to take him to task over that presumption.

The abuse was his, when he chose to speak for 50,000,000 strangers, whose opinions he could not possibly predict, and no high and mighty sniffy reaction will make him right.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:10 PM

Rafflsebear - Yes I get your meaning.

I agree. In direct response to the OP, I don't believe Google were being intentionally "political" in their use of what has now become internationally adopted as the 'Peace Sign'. CND chose to allow free use of their symbol - it was their choice.

As an aside though I also tend to agree with MtheGM on personally preferring the Dove of Peace as representing the *beauty* of Peace as an humanitarian or even spiritual IDEAL.

I'm afraid the CND logo will never tally with that image for *me*, as it's got far too much of an immediate human history etched into my memory. I was a child during the height of the CND movement - when Maggie and Ronny Raygun were playing cowboys with nuclear missiles.

When I was a kid, my Mums mate was going to take her daughter to Greenham Common Peace Camp to protest against the Cruise Missiles, my Mother thought her mate was daft - but secretly I wished that it was my Mum taking me there. And I'm still deeply impressed by what those women did. Eighteen years of action and vigilance, for a very specific anti-nuclear weapons purpose. So the CND logo will always remain what it was for me. Though of course I do acknowledge that images get co-opted and altered and that unlike me, Google and the rest of the world were not in the UK during the Cold-War ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM

Sorry Don - as you say - firm but fair.

you may have noticed that I have taken the same stance regarding the hijacking of my opinion earlier in the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Marion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:47 PM

Back in the dim mists of my fundamentalist upbringing, I remember being told that what the peace symbol really represented was a cross, upside-down and with its arms broken - i.e., a satanic symbol being passed off as something innocent. Anyone else ever encounter that interpretation?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM

This thoroughly pointless thread has missed one essential point about Google. They have geotargetted home pages.

If it was on google.com - peace symbol, non political
If it was on google.co.uk - CND symbol, political statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:13 PM

"From: GUEST,PeterC - PM
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM

This thoroughly pointless thread"

Ahh, did it make you feel all pompous and superior pointing out how pointless this thread (that you have deigned to reduce yourself to responding to) is, or did it make you feel all smutty and dirty and common simply doing so, like the rest of us? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:20 PM

CS.........In the sixties there was in the US what became known as "The Movement." It had no one leader or no single goal and in fact wasn't really anything besides a concept. What it included were the numerous groups working toward Civil Rights from the NAACP to The Panthers to the Muslims and probably 2 dozen groups in between. There were also the various pacifist groups and of course the anti-war folks, not all pacifists by any means. Then there were the "fuck the government" people who had their own groups like the SDS along with followers from others like Vets against the War or something else. In this mix there was also quite a few anti-nuke people ranging from banning nuclear energy to just banning the bomb. Hope that helps CS!

NOW........Moving On................

So yeah......There were plenty of folks available for protests and everything else including building takeovers and bombings. While none of the objectives of these many groups were completely successful, almost all of them had some degree of success...................and I'd bet that at least 90% of the folks affiliated with "The Movement" owned/wore a Peace symbol. I'd also bet that very few knew the actual origins but that didn't keep it from having a serious meaning to many.

The line about "remembering the 60's means you weren't there" kinda' pisses me off as well. For what they believed when they often wore/showed that Peace sign, some were beaten or otherwise injured, others went to jail, some left the country, many were alienated from family and former friends, and some of them were killed. You don't forget things like that even if we were high, drunk, stoned. or otherwise goofed up. Now I'm 60 and I hear that since we didn't all know the "original" meaning we are simply Yankee Doodle noodles...............as MtheGM says.

If you agree with M on that one then you need to write to Joe Offer RIGHT NOW and tell them the mean Ol' Spaw has personally attacked you when I say, I am amazed you can look so far down your nose when your head is buried so deep in your fuckin' ass!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:59 PM

Wooo Spaw - so YOU were PeterC then!

Lighten up man, I don't think anyone was doing anything than remembering..

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:05 PM

Anyway's it's Xmas I'm blasted, I'm not up for a fight. And especially not about this shit!

So hugs and strictly non-political 'peace' stuff, till another day folks.. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:11 PM

SORRY I'm being 'Arsey' as they say in the UK, but I'm having a laff - bit drunk and stuff, but I get the point. Lot's of folks used the sign, it meant slightly different things to different people. A pity as far as I'm concerned, but not for others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

Take a few drinks for me CS.......Sometimes I wish I still could........Have a great night and a pleasant hangover.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM

Catspaw - you don't mean you put these posts of yours up while you are sober?

How pathetic!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:25 PM

"The line about "remembering the 60's means you weren't there" kinda' pisses me off as well."

Well I wasn't there in the sixties at all. I was a child in the Eighties, and not a protester of course but a *child* for whom those who DID protest were protesting FOR. And as a child of the Eighties, I've always been aware that those women were fighting for ME. That's something I still hold dear, and I'm proud to do so too.

". Now I'm 60 and I hear that since we didn't all know the "original" meaning we are simply Yankee Doodle noodles...............as MtheGM says."

Well yeah - that comment's out of order.
Do I have to explicitly state "I don't personally agree with that thing that he just said", just because we were born on the same land-mass? I'm not my brothers keeper and all that!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:29 PM

Don't worry folks, it's 11:30pm - so I'll be off to bed err in about twenty minutes ... sh ;-)

I did get some lovely cherry brandy off my step-mum-ish tho'

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 02:14 AM

". Now I'm 60 and I hear that since we didn't all know the "original" meaning we are simply Yankee Doodle noodles...............as MtheGM says."
Well yeah - that comment's out of order. ===

It would have been, Crow Sister - if it had been what I said — which, if you look back, you will find it wasn't quite: quoted 'out of context', as they say; & by whom but that threescore·but·still·stuck·in·early·adolsescent·modes·of·thought·&·expression Catspaw, who hasn't, it appears, even the excuse of alcohol for his pitiful foul-mouthed tirades. I really think you should consider more deeply before paying much mind to what that walking disgrace to this respectable forum might choose to [mis]quote.

Happy New Year, Sister [even if you don't want to be my keeper] -

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 02:31 AM

===In the US, at least, "queer" is a perfectly acceptable, even preferred, term of reference for many homosexuals, both male and female. It was once considered highly insultive, but the homosexual community seems to have adopted it as a way of stripping it of its power. It's members of the straight community who think "queer" is an insult while "gay" is not.===

Very interesting and informative point, for which many thanks, BWL. Perhaps a comparison with groups with names like "Niggaz With Attitude" might not be unacceptable or irrelevant?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Smedley
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 06:44 AM

That's about right, M.

But as with that comparison, it matters a great deal *who* is using the term

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bainbo
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 12:13 PM

Google is a private enterprise and is as entitled as anyone to have, and to express, a point of view, if it wants. If you don't like it, use another search engine.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 12:54 PM

Ask someone from China if google is political.

Google was instrumental in providing information to the Chinese goverment who then imprisoned numerous people for thier ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 01:28 PM

And in.

MtheGM, your opinion of Spaw's character and abilities of expression is of no consequence to me. I ignore some of his writing - you could do the same - because of the pearls to be discovered in the rest of his writing. His character is something I aspire to.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 01:48 PM

I think not, Ebbie. I know his sort — he deludes himself he is a 'character', which is supposed to give him licence for all sorts of unmannerliness which we are all supposed to meet with a merry tee·he·hee or we shall reveal ourselves as lacking in that indispensable attribute, a sense of humour. Well, I couldn't give a gnat's piss if Spaw thinks I have a sense of humour or not: when it comes to people who insult one and then say in a pained tone, "Oh, can't you take a joke then?", my answer is invariably, "No, I have had a SOHectomy when it comes to your sort, so be off with you, you infantile idiot."

Such SOH as I possess is reserved for what I find funny, not what some bully imagines I ought to because he is ill-bred and lacking in any sort of self-control or social sense.

I had thought better of you than to aspire to such self-regarding fatuousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 01:58 PM

Michael, Spaw doesn't need- and I'm sure, doesn't want defense from me. Let me just add that you are looking at him in a one-dimensional way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 02:22 PM

No, Ebbie, I'm sorry, but I don't for a second see why I should be expected to 'make allowances' for what is simply ('one-dimensionally', if you choose to regard it so)ill-disguised, aggressive, bullying, foulmouthed ill-breeding, however multidimensional its perpetrator may aspire to be thought. That is the 'dimension' he has elected to present to my regard, so he will have to live with the consequences [not that I imagine he gives any more flying gnats'·pisses for my regard than I do for his, a consideration which occasions me not the remotest distress whatsoever]. Life is too short [especially at my time of it when there can't be that much of it to look forward to, however you may slice it] to be the slightest bit tolerant of, or amused by, such antics. Sorry.

Perhaps, at that, you are looking at me a bit one-dimensionally in this particular regard?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 02:23 PM

I don't whether this is another US/UK divide or a generational thing, but this thread is the first time I (a 50-something Brit) have seen this logo described as a "peace symbol". If I were asked to describe a "peace symbol" my first thoughts would be a dove or olive branch - certainly not this. For me this symbol is indelibly associated with CND, which was undoubtedly a political movement.

CND, in the eyes of its opponents, was at best naive in hoping that unilateral disarmament would remove the nuclear threat, and at worst accused of wanting to leave the country open to Soviet invasion. This was not some wishy-washy hippy notion of peace, but a serious political movement which aroused strong opinions on both sides.

Whilst the logo has apparently taken on a new meaning to many, it's original meaning is still widely known, certainly here in the UK. Like it or not, it still has political overtones.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 02:33 PM

An interesting article on the Sonaran Desert:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091216144145.htm

Scientists Map Speed of Climate Change for Different Ecosystems:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091223133337.htm

Global Warming Likely to Be Amplified by Slow Changes to Earth Systems, Geologists Say
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091220143921.htm

From The German Advisory Council on Global Change:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091121093521.htm

Some Dutch research:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091220174725.htm


New tools from Europe:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091220175504.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 03:21 PM

...walking disgrace to this respectable forum...

Haven't laughed so hard in ages!

For some useful research on what it was like in the 60s, over here where we were just "wishy-washy hippies," I would refer you all to THIS THREAD. If you read no other postings, be sure to read the ones of Big Mick and Catspaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM

Sorry, EdT, but what is your point? The fact that there are these different sites on the WWW doesn't seem to me to have anything to do with whether or not Google is taking any political stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 03:58 PM

I think maybe Ed posted in the wrong thread.

Some information in Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:00 PM

Thank you, Katlaughing. That was an interesting thread. It leaves me exercised as to why, and how, the articulate, intelligent, cogent Catspaw of nearly 10 years ago has opted to regress into the 60-year-old foulmouthed adolesecent name-caller of today, who asserts [in italics yet, but I suspect that was becoz he wasn't quite in control of the Mudcat http or whatever it's called] that I must have my head buried in my fucking arse if I don't perceive everything from the perspective of over-here precisely as he does from that of over-there.

Thank you at least, for not, this time round, yourself denouncing what I said as 'fucking crap'. Mind how you go tho: I haven't forgotten you were one of those who once intervened in o·so·lady·laike offended tones in a quarrel I was having on here with a fellow-countryman who fully appreciated the force of the obloquy I chose to apply, which you greatly over-interpreted from a blinkered national perspective.

Happy New Year - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

"[Al] Gore has served as a senior adviser to Mountain View, California-based Google since February 2001, shortly after leaving public office. Google spokesman Jon Murchinson said in an e-mail: 'We have not provided comment on if or how we compensate Mr. Gore in his role as an advisor to Google.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:42 PM

Ah, nothing like a smarmy, smug-type to give them all a bad name. UKers mind how he goes. We might paint you all with the same broad brush he applies to us!**BSEG**

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

I think he's trying too hard to piss people off, kat. Something wrong with that...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:23 PM

I'd like to add, Michael, in response to your anguished query as to how this 60 year old man could have slipped so badly from what he was capable of writing 10 years ago: He hasn't changed

Human beings are complex. Spaw may reveal his complexity a bit more readily than we - or you choose to or are comfortable with. I suspect that a lot of it is attributable to his lack of fear.

Incidentally, I think you'll find that none of the long time Mudcatters are going to side with you in your opinion or your attack. We know our Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:35 PM

To me the sixties movement was the civil rights movement which inspired the sexual equality or femenist movement. The assasination of all the greatest leftist leaders was the unsaid motivation to stand up and make an individaul difference. The anti war movement got the remaining people who were not marching up on their feet.

The icing on this Nexus of events cake, was the drug "movement".
Any real hippie knows the phrase "tune in , turn on and drop out".
Some did one, others did two but I did all three. I no longer turn on but support the freedom of others who do. Still I wouldn't want a dime going to some murderous cartel.

If anyone wants to have a pissing contest, I suppose we could decide who is the best hippie. I could tell you that those who are hippies, have harmed LESS/FEWER lands, waters, people and animals than those who are not hippies.

The biggest lie about hippies is that they are slakers. I have known high power attoneys who are hippies. The financiers who destroyed the world for the next several generations are those who are definately not hippies.

Yeah the sixties and early seventies had hundreds of people's front organizations. Some of them were bizarre, some religiously bizarre but I suppose human nature has always been a messey affair.

Today it is said we should fear that we are so much alike than different. My artificial yet true seperation of human race into two groups is the linear and non linear. (the literalists vs the metaphorists) seldom will the twain ever meet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

The Wikipedia link Jeri posted explains how the symbol came to be adopted in the US. That doesn't negate the fact that in the UK, for older generations at least, the sign has other, overtly political, connotations.

Whilst I am sure that CND believed they were campaigning for peace, there was an alternative view that their demand for unilateral nuclear disarmament could have opened the way to a non-nuclear war. I don't want to get into a debate over the rights and wrongs of either argument, simply to explain that "peace" and "CND" are not necessarily synonymous.

If you're going to use it as a peace symbol, which I am sure is how Google intended it, you also need be aware that it does have other meanings. It is not unambiguous.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 07:53 PM

Yeah, I think so too, Jeri...almost as if he's been here before.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 09:46 PM

Incidentally, I think you'll find that none of the long time Mudcatters are going to side with you in your opinion or your attack. We know our Spaw.===

Not so, Ebbie — have had some PM response in my support. I am not the only one he appears to irritate with his 'Teehee·I·am·such·a·character!' get-out from the norms of acceptable civilised social intercourse. So carry on 'knowing' him, & for my part you are welcome to him & can keep him.


Spaw: address no more remarks to me, please, young man, as I give notice I shan't even take trouble to read them — & not becoz my head is in an unmentionable situation either, smartarse...

Kat & Jeri — who is the "he" ref'd to in your last exchange; not clear if you mean Spaw or me? Not that I am particularly bothered by opinions of either of you, who appear, unlike Ebbie, to wish to conduct this converstn in abusive, rather than rational terms.

I am getting v bored with this thread [tho Howard's contribtns have of course given fresh ❤ to the over·here·&·know·what's·what contingent]. Might not even bother to log on to it again. However, this is not one of those I'm·outa·here statements that some people are always making & never keeping to.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 11:04 PM

If I had better typing skills and 2 or 3 days, I'd try to mediate this jousting match between Michael & Ebbie and Catspaw and katlaughing..and Jeri....(having met all EXCEPT Michael & katlaughing in person)... but since I don't have time or typing skills, I'll just say that everything I know tells me that they are ALL excellent, concerned, intelligent folk who happen to be different and have different ways of expressing things.

In my just over 13 years here, this is one of the stranger bits of back & forth I have read. ....and I probably shouldn't even say this much, but hey... I'm strange also!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 11:49 PM

Yeah ya' are Bill........and we're all thankful for it!

I seem to have done a fine job of getting under MGM's skin.....or on it ......or something.........LOL......

Howard phrased it correctly. Almost everyone gladly admitted that the CND symbol is viewed today in the UK far differently than it is here in the States. Has it become watered down and diluted? Yes it has and it simply signifies "Peace" to most of the world, not just the USA.......Read the CND site.   Google may have erred in not knowing the "Peace Sign" meant something different and more political in the UK but I seriously doubt they meant any offense. It once had some very strong political overtones here as well but over time it has become just a friendly and International way of hoping for peace.

As for me......why of course I'm a bit of the bully and a bit of the egotist and often arrogant as well......but I try not to let it bother me..........LOL..........Hell, we have a ton of members who are pretty much the same.............If it bothers you, well, then .......................well, I guess it bothers you. Maybe we can get you a little drum!

Going back to the first sentence I wrote on this thread............Only at the 'Cat would we have a fight over a Peace sign.....or whatever ta' hell it is................LOL..........


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:37 AM

To correct a previous error, as my watchword is ever "ACCURACY MATTERS".

I had misremembered about semaphore, which has not after all changed since I learned it at age 12, 65 years ago. The symbol reads simply, in semaphore, ND, for 'Nuclear Disarmament' - the fact of its representing a 'Campaign' for this being presumably implied, or taken as read, by the originators. Both Peter Cadogan and George Parker are dead so I can no longer ask them.

I am indebted to Jeri for the Wiki link which reminded me of this.

Did after all cast an eye over Spaw's last - hard to avoid one's eye flickering. He is welcome to such petty pathetic enjoyment as he may have found 'under my skin' - little things, as they do say, please little minds. A proverbial saying here. Do you have it over there also, USAians? One never knows nowdays.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:38 AM

Oh, sorry - nearly forgot -

LoL !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:36 AM

The only thing that genuinely annoyed me about this thread, was the immediate barrage of "What a lot of shit" "Fucking crap" or whatever, to the notion of the possibility of said logo having any political connotations.

That kind of group heckling stifles open discussions (maybe deliberately?), and I think in this instance it irked some people who knew more intimately the history and meaning of the sign - a history which has very definitely been filled with political controversy up until relatively recently.

If folks want to squabble and name-call on a *One to One* basis however, that's a different matter! I don't personally give a flying one, and would never wish to spoil the fun or get prissy and tut-tutty about it! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:53 AM

"Spaw may reveal his complexity a bit more readily than we - or you choose to or are comfortable with. I suspect that a lot of it is attributable to his lack of fear."

WTF! What a lotta pseudo-psych tosh, I'm laffing myself silly!
"lack of fear"? Fear of what?
Someone typing back "fuck off you nob-end" or some other really scary written stuff on an internet forum? LOL! "Lack of fear" Oh my..

"Incidentally, I think you'll find that none of the long time Mudcatters are going to side with you in your opinion or your attack. We know our Spaw."

That kinda cliquery sucks the big high hard one.

Anyway - have fun folks!
No side-taking here, Peace 'n' shit ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:34 AM

Crow Sister, you would do well to read some old threads before you get so shirty about someone you don't know.

If anyone wants to see a little guy actually doing the semi-fore CLICK HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:42 AM

Well, since I am still here, still housesitting due to dense fog that prevents planes from getting into town, I'll try once more.

Crow Sister- I've always liked ravens better, by the by - if you'd like to pick a fight I am not available, but I will elucidate some of my "psychobabble". By 'lack of fear' I was referring to the fact that the man has been so close to death so many times there's not a whole lot that anyone can do to scare him At least, that is how I read him.

Some day I will have to go back - on my own computer, rather than on this unfamiliar laptop- and see where it all went wrong, From memory I'd say that USAians were genuinely surprised at the vehemence of some posters as to the misuse of the CND symbol. I personally was so far from understanding that I wasn't sure on which side of the CND fight they were on.

For that matter, I'm still not quite sure. Are you/Were you all on the same side?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 12:07 PM

"shirty about someone you don't know."

Shirty about whom Kat? I was responding to Ebbie's post there.
I'm not into 'taking sides' here.

As far as I'm concerned 'Spaw can rip the piss outa whomever he pleases, and so can Michael too! They're both big boys now - they can work it out between themselves. Pistolas at dawn even, if they want ;-)

I just don't dig the whole clique preferential treatment thing Ebbie was aiming at because "Our Spaw" is "complicated" so that makes swearing at me fine by all the "long-term Mudcatter's" (who are clearly by implication, the only people who's feelings really matter).
'
Don't get me wrong - I'm not bitching at 'Spaw AT ALL, he's cool by me, as is Michael too. But we're ALL complicated Kat, we all have a story - and that story can't always be found on a magic thread search. So, sometimes folks get pissed off and rant at each other, no big deal, shit happens.

But do I really hate that cliquey stuff where folks rally round and 'support' someone else just because they're in the Scooby Gang - because frankly I'm quite sure Spaw can and does bat for himself perfectly well without it.

But then I'm an inveterate outsider, never belonged to any long-term group - always wandered off before I belonged anywhere.
Mudcat will inevitably be the same...

Hey, so psych me ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 12:23 PM

Ebbie - it didn't matter which side of the CND fight we were on - as I stated above, my position as to the matter changed — it was the fact of recognising it as, if not exactly a fight, then as a POLITICAL issue in which views were polarised, that is the point at issue. That symbol represented a particular, recognisable, entrenched political position. It was not the fact of having not realised that, but the attitude of maintaining that this was just being picky and how could 'most people' {Jeri} be expected to know?; and that it was just a 'load of fucking crap' {the fragrant katlaughing} that got up the noses of Murray and Howard & me - if not the entire 50,000,000 population of these islands as I once [perhaps just an itsy-bitsy· itty-bitty·teensy-weensy bit hyperbolically] claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:18 PM

Perhaps I should clarify my remark about "long term Mudcatter" and "our" Spaw. I, of course, was speaking to MtheGM, who as a newbie to the BS section could not be presumed familiar with "our" long term Mudcat members.

As has often - VERY often - been stated, there is no cliquey segment on the cat, or if there is, I certainly don't know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:29 PM

The Google illustration is simply that of an innocent stack of greeting cards--the peace sign having now become a not infrequent feature thereon--evidence of which is submitted for your consideration here: A Variety of "Peace" related Christmas Cards

The truly sad and pathetic thing here is that such a mild irrelevancy should have torn our gentle community on the one day of the year set aside to celebrate peace and hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:41 PM

"The truly sad and pathetic thing here is that such a mild irrelevancy should have torn our gentle community on the one day of the year set aside to celebrate peace and hope."


Oh Poo Hoo to you! I thought the whole frecking point of this thread was that the CND sign was initially a dynamic controversial political image. But! "Peace" adopted it, how... nice of Peace. So the CND sign err became "fun" and people thought it'd be way cool to put it on T. Shirts and stuff.. and errr...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:55 PM

Absolutely nothing will stop those who want to be pissed off from being pissed off.

I'll talk to people up until I can see that it's clearly a waste of my time, because they don't want to find understanding and common ground, but find enemies.

As they say elsewhere on the internet, *PLONK*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:14 PM

The point I was making was kinda there was no fight before folks decided there was a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

I tried, folks, I really did try, to wade through this shit. Got far enough that I knew I wasn't going to invest anymore time. A couple of observations.

First, any soul, on any continent, that was alive and old enough to care about the news during the Vietnam/birth of the Hippies/Age of Aquarius, knows damn full well that the it became the universal "peace" sign. Any attempt, IMO, to act otherwise is disengenuous. I do appreciate learning about the CND connection. I was not aware of it, and it lends an explanation as to where it came from.

Second, MtheGM's comment:

I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.

Macaroni! - Michael

demonstrates, once again, how some folks over there really just love trying to lord it over us "colonials" as to their feelings of some sort of intellectual superiority. I wonder where they were during the discussion of the Rebel flag and how it evokes abhorence with regard to racism. Mike seems to think that our not getting what the peace sign meant to folks in Europe shows we are just Yankee Doodle noodles. Could I say the same for the English that think the "stars and bars" are nothing more than a symbol for hooligans?

As has been said before, only on Mudcat would we argue about this type of thing.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:28 PM

Ebbie affectionatly says "we know our Spaw".
Like knowing Shakespeare, one must know their Spaw.
Sometimes I wake up at 3 Am is if a noise had startled me, only to find that I am left wondering what Emmanual Kant would think of Spaw.
I really Kant say for sure, but I respect and read them both. I have even seen their photos.

Spaw has a central persona or at least seems to project one voice.
In contrast I have been the cartoonist, the therapist, the alarmist (but a correct one), the satirist, joker, political hack and several other personae that only serves to create a confused identity which may be telling in itself. Besides the closest I got to a getaway was to start out and turn around.

Ebbie has it right. Know thy Spaw as yourself. no thats not it... OH "We know our Spaw".
You know, thats a damn nice thing to say. The measure of a man is in his friends, as Charles Dickens said.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:59 PM

I don't think that Murray intended for his honest inquiry to turn into an internet international slugfest, and his question had a simple and clear answer, save the fact that Michael, for reasons of his own, chose to take the gratuitous stab that Mick has cited above.

The fact is, many years ago, I had one of those Nuclear Disarmament buttons snugly and smugly pinned to my coat, ready and willing to go into a "Ban the Bomb" diatribe for whosoever made the mistake of asking about it--but these days, you can buy t-shirts and necklaces with the "Peace Sign" on them at Target, and it is all nostalgia, rather than any sort of political or even "Peace" statement. And the UK has more like 60,000,000 people-as
the poet said, "That was then, this is now."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:12 PM

Why are you here?

It has to be the same reason why most people are here. For the luckiest people they are here because of the friends they care about and the sense of a community that honestly cares about them.

For the less fortunate they are here for the virtual sense of community and the belief that people may care about them.

It's not just about the trivia or the music. It's about your wife dieing or a child that gets hurt or a husband that is murdered by an unknown assailant or your home reduced to cinders. It's about real life and death in your family as well as the world at large.

This community, be it real or virtual to you, becomes something more over time and can disappoint to a degree that is disproportionate to the actual facts because the community you emotionally rely on, might sometimes spurn or condemn you.

Sometimes you can feel how stupid "they" are or be confounded by the degree of sophistication, intelligence and knowledge of a certain subject.

Being so invested in the support of a caring community that wanes and ebbs like the tide is not without its costs, but overall it is beneficial.

It's like the end of Annie Hall when Woody explains that his brother goes to a psychiatrist because he believes he has an imaginary chicken. The Dr. asks why the whole family indulges in pretending there is this imaginary chicken, and Woody says "because we need the eggs".


For myself I know this to be true. I can go 5 years without a PM which is less than half the time I have been posting. I know my spontaneous dyslexic writing looks to be a shambles, while the ideas are sound the intent is often ignored or critizied at best.
But I know I need the eggs so I try to do better orjust storm off for awhile.

So whether you have egg on your face or you are told to go suck an egg, we all need the eggs.

Happy New Year Joe,
Don H

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM

Mick, my friend, I am afraid that you are totally and completely mistaken when you say

"First, any soul, on any continent, that was alive and old enough to care about the news during the Vietnam/birth of the Hippies/Age of Aquarius, knows damn full well that the it became the universal "peace" sign. Any attempt, IMO, to act otherwise is disengenuous

I, personally, me, myself, was totally unaware that the CND logo had metamorphed into the universal Peace logo, and I do and did try to keep abreast of the news. It may seem incredible to you that there are people unaware of the more universal current symbolism, but that is in fact the case.

After this thread, however, that is probably no longer the case !

Thank you Ted, for acknowledging that the OP was an honest enquiry.

When I looked at the Google logo on Xmas Day, I thought "Whaaaat ?? Shit, that's a bit controversial", hence my starting this thread.

I now realise that, as I said on an earlier post, it was just a case of two nations separated by a common symbol, and that the matter has now been cleared up.

I did however and still do take grave exception to the thread being described as a "load of crap" and "this shit".

My opening post, from my perspective, and from the perspective of many UK members of a certain vintage , was a perfectly valid observation.

One wishes that clarification could have been achieved with less rancour, or indeed rancor, but there you go ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:31 PM

Donuel, those last two posts by you are outstanding; some of your best ever.

Murray, the "fucking crap" was specifically about what MtheGM used to refer to Americans and I am sure you know that. No peace signs in Florida? That surprises me, really, not trying to take the piss outta ya, just surprised you never ran into it whilst living here. (Or, have I got my wires crossed?)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:05 PM

Kat, I swear I have no recollection of coming across any "peace signs" in Florida.

Mind you, I was surrounded almost totally by Cubans on the one hand and rednecks on the other, so maybe that explains it.

Thing is, even if I had seen any "peace signs" I would still have interpreted it as being an anti-nuclear logo. How would I have known any different ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:10 PM

Tsk, tsk, Murray...did ya ever go into a Hallmark card store or anywhere with greeting cards? And, usually there is some indication, i.e. text along with it which says "Peace." **bg** Maybe you need to move back for a refresher course.:-)

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:16 PM

Kat, I don't think the peace sign symbol has been consistently present through the years. It seemed to be all over the place in the 60's, then mostly disappeared for a long time. When I started seeing it again (this century?), it had a retro-hippie feel to it. I think Murray might have missed the periods when it was plastered all over in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:23 PM

I would like nothing better than to move back for a refresher course, believe me. Anything to get out of this snow and ice ...

Actually, thinking about it, there was one guy who used to play our open mike in Homestead, who either had the sign on his guitar or on the case, I can't remember which.

At no point however did he ever jab his finger in my chest and say "hey limey, I know what you are thinking, like this is an anti-nuclear logo, but let me tell you , this ain't no anti-nuclear logo, this is a totally universal peace sign".

Nope, I just went on thinking he was anti-nuclear (which of course he probably was) .

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:25 PM

^ in addition to being pro-peace, naturally

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: jeddy
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:38 PM

hey crow sister, have you given up checking your inbox???? LOL

love
j x x x x x x xx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:03 PM

This thread has actually brought to the forefront what is rather an interesting subject, namely the different visceral, gut-reaction response which different cultures experience when confronted with different stimuli.

The particular example I have in mind, which is probably of some relevance (or maybe not) to this thread, is the fairly common practice in the US of draping the Stars and Stripes in front of one's house, or flying it from a flagpole in the front lawn.

I found this weird at first, although I bet not one American Mudcatter would find it weird, having been accustomed to it from birth.

After a while, (it took a long while actually) I began to realise that this display of patriotism was actually something quite admirable, and of worth, and had none of the negative connotations which would have been implicit in the flying of the Union Flag in such a manner in a private house in Britain.

However, just try explaining the difference to any Brit who hasn't lived in the States, and you will get all the standard knee jerk responses about gung-ho Yankee imperialism etc etc, they will equate the flying of the Stars and Stripes with the flying of the Union Flag.

What I wonder is, can Americans see why the two situations are different, and if so can they appreciate it on the visceral level as opposed to the intellectual level ?

Like I say, it's all about gut response, and how people transfer their instinctive (or rather culturally induced) reactions to similar although not identical situations, and it takes time to change.

Having grown up with the CND logo, it will always trigger the "no-nukes" reaction in my brain, just as it will for Crow Sister, MtheGM, Howard Jones, and countless others of our generation in the UK.

We can't help it, it's hard wired.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:08 PM

memo to self: eliminate the word "actually " from vocabulary.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:10 PM

A year or two ago, the" powers that be" in the fashion world decided it was time to introduce "60's retro" apparel--mostly, but not exclusively, for women, an mostly, but not exclusively, for young women, meaning teenagers.

Now there are any number of ways to evoke the ambience of the 60's, but by far the easiest and and cheapest way is to simply slap a "Peace Sign" on everything--given that in America, nothing has been done unless it is has been done to excess, this (which I actually found today in the Exxon convenience store) is the ultimate marketing exploitation of the "Peace Sign"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:01 PM

=== Second, MtheGM's comment:
-I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.
Macaroni! - Michael-
demonstrates, once again, how some folks over there really just love trying to lord it over us "colonials" as to their feelings of some sort of intellectual superiority===

Thus Big Mick, cited few posts later by MTed.

May I please draw attention to small word 'if' — a tiny word, but surely makes all difference to what I said: without it I accept that the post might well have been, what Katlaughing now claims she was solely attacking in her fragrant formulation 'a load of fucking crap'. But I did use it, didn't I!

So, please, my American friends [& I have visited US many times and have much family living there, in Chicago, LA {my initials are not entirely adventitious - Louis B Mayer was my 1st cousin 2ce removed, i.e. my grandfather's 1st cousin, tho the Cal branch spell surname slightly differently}, NY, Va ...; & I have always been made to feel at home & welcome in USA] —— let me just ask you all: which part of if, as they say, do you not understand?

Love - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:37 PM

Ahh... but at least you weren't related to Sam Goldwyn!

Love & best wishes for the New Year right back at you!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:39 PM

I honestly have to admit that the no nuke peace sign always had equal meaning to me. In the states it was mothers who first marched in great numbers and used the peace sign to advocate no nukes.
Anti war groups used the no nuke symbol as the peace sign.
same coin, two sides.

But if all you can muster is the ambition to argue more taste over cries of less filling, well, this phoney bologny controversy over peace signs was made for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:39 PM

Thing is, even if I had seen any "peace signs" I would still have interpreted it as being an anti-nuclear logo. How would I have known any different ? Murray McLeod

Can you not turn that around and realize that it is EXACTLY the response we felt? You say that to your knowledge you had never run into the Peace symbol; we are equally adamant that we hadn't run into the CND symbol.

MtheGM says: "...if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.
Macaroni! - Michael-

Do you mean that you don't see that you had made the leap to saying that that was what we were doing. that in fact, we were persisting in protesting that it was just a peace symbol?

I think this is a dead issue, except for those who are reluctant to stow their cudgels.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:49 PM

Thank you Bill; & the like to you.

No, indeed — as to Goldwyn, include me out. But I revel in relationship to Cousin Louis B, as it makes, by my reckoning, the exquisite Judy Garland - whom I always loved, the only straight Friend·Of·Dorothy in captivity, that's me - my sort-of-Mistress-In-Law. There's glory for you! I have a Cousin Danny Mayer, nephew of Louis B tho I can't work out exact relationship to me, who always used to come over on her annual visits to London, on last of which she died, to dance in her company; so we all knew him. Next time you see Guys&Dolls movie, look out for the crapshooter in the sewer in the big green fedora hat — that's my Cousin Danny...

End of thread-drift. Back to the fucking crap, Kat & Jeri & Ebbie & all... & Love & HNY to all u-guize also!

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:59 PM

I heartily join in the Happy New Year sentiment. My favorite time of year.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:22 PM

I LOVE Guys & Dolls! I'll watch out for your cousin next time it is playing.

Maybe we could all meet up at the International Peace Garden, some day. (I don't see any "peace" signs on that site!)

Little bit more history then I will stop. It's just interesting to me to find these things:

Women Strike for Peace (USA) A US organization of women, mainly housewives, who, initially defining themselves as apolitical and domestic, campaigned against the nuclear arms race and the Cold War. The organization was founded on 1 November 1961, in the form of a one-day national peace protest led by Dagmar Wilson and others. An estimated 50,000 women stopped their work in the home for a day to demand that President John F. Kennedy 'End the Arms Race—Not the Human Race'. Bella Abzug led the organization into the domain of overt politics in the WSP's campaign against the draft for the Vietnam War.
JAN PALMOWSKI. "Women Strike for Peace." A Dictionary of Contemporary World History. 2004. Encyclopedia.com. 29 Dec. 2009 .

A lot to explore in links at Swarthmore, too. They ask people to write to them to have their organisation added. I think someone should tell them about the CND. I didn't see it listed.

Jeri, that might be it, I forget how long Murray's been back in Scotland. Sorry, Murray!:-)

Happy New Year, MtheGM...glad to see you have a sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:40 PM

Michael--The word "if" is not, in itself, demeaning. The phrase that you used is--

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:36 AM

Well, just to make the discussion even more complicated, let me throw this bit in: to many of us who served in Vietnam, and were treated as subhuman scum upon our return by people wearing the "peace sign", that symbol represents, and always will represent, unreasoning hatred for people in the military and the equating of soldiers with the wars in which they are involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 02:54 AM

M TED writes =Michael--The word "if" is not, in itself, demeaning. The phrase that you used is-- ==

But the word 'if' surely qualifies or moderates the offending phrase — i.e. it shows the phrase would only be applicable in certain circumstances: i.e. in this case, persisting in the view that the previous history of the sign, tho previously unknown to its users, may still be safely ignored now that it is known. My point was that, surely now that they knew the facts of the previous history, they would cease to persist in such an ignoral, & so would demonstrate that they were not, in fact, such 'noodles' as to whom the phrase might be applied.

I trust that this will have clarified the matter to your satisfaction, and remain, my Dear Sir,

(with all best wishes for a very Happy New Year)

Your obedient servant
- Michael Grosvenor Myer MA FRSA MJI

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 05:37 AM

I'm really not clear why we are still arguing about this.

If Big Mick's post is representative of the other Americans, most of you interpret this logo as a generic peace symbol and hadn't previously been aware of its origins.

For we Brits, the symbol has always represented a political movement and so far as I can see all of us contributing to this discussion were unaware that it had taken on this wider meaning. I don't think any of us has been offended by its use by Google, simply surprised, but that has now been cleared up.

We are now all better informed. To restate what I said in my earlier post, we should all be aware that it does have more than one meaning, and be prepared to make a mental translation to recognise the alternative/alternate meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:26 AM

If Big Mick's post is representative of the other Americans, most of you interpret this logo as a generic peace symbol and hadn't previously been aware of its origins.

Howard, once again I say that you have it right. This thread is now almost 5 days old and in the first five hours that was already becoming apparent from the posts of artbrooks, Jeri, and Bill D. Within the first 50 posts a number of other Americans including Ebbie and myself had chimed in with something pretty similar.

In my first post on this thread I quoted from and then linked to the CND website which stated that the symbol had gone around the world and the meaning had expanded:

Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol. It appeared on the walls of Prague when the Soviet tanks invaded in 1968, on the Berlin Wall, in Sarajevo and Belgrade, on the graves of the victims of military dictators from the Greek Colonels to the Argentinian junta, and most recently in East Timor.

I think if you were to take a survey, intelligence of 'Catters is above any averages. Dumbfucks like myself may draw it down a lot but the it would still be well above the norms. Most American 'Catters would probably agree with the CND statement and your summation as well. On the other hand, I think it also probable that the average American would simply say, "Huh? I thought it was a peace sign thing.....One of those Hippie things from the 60's."

Either way, the folks at Google fell into one of those two categories and thinking they were sending a message of love and peace, used their little Christmas card drawing without any more thought than that! Obviously a mistake on their part.............

What set most Americans off, including me, was MGM's "if" comment. "If" MGM says so then I take his word he meant it so...........But "if" you use a phrase like that it generally implies the attitude that "Americans are ignorant, resource wasting, obnoxious, greedy, motherfuckers." We hear that a lot. Like most generalizations, it is based in truth but it paints a wide stroke.........one of which many are not a part.

Kinda' like "Yankee Doodle."   As Robert Wuhl once said, "We may not have been aware of the insult it was or aware of the Macaroni Club but we knew a good tune when we heard it!"

Happy New Year.....and be sure to try and post to the Worldwide Mudcat New Year thread.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:59 AM

I do understand your point, dear Michael--and we will leave it there. Happy New Year as well!