Twa Corbies in Friesian

Subject: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:05 AM

I was speaking to someone on Sunday who had heard "The Twa Corbies" sung in Friesian (about ten years ago), using the "An Alarh" tune (the singer was under the impression it was something from ancient local tradition, so can't have done the translation herself).

Anybody know anything about this?

Has it been done in other languages?

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:27 AM

Most people who sing Twa Corbies think the An Arlac'h tune is traditional to the song - which, in a way, I suppose it is. Was it ever collected from the actual tradition with a tune of its own I wonder?

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: IanC
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:36 AM

Jack

Twa Corbies appears to have been a poetic rewrite of the English "Three Ravens" published by Walter Scott. He says he got it from Sharpe, and I can confirm this as I have seen the letter from Scott thanking him in Sharpe's collected letters. Scott was impressed with the similarity to the English song (published by Ravenscroft).

Sharpe says he got it from an aristocratic lady but neither mentions the source nor is it apparent in any of his letters where he might have got it. Sharpe was, however, well known as a publisher of forged "folk songs" and was certainly getting fragments of "old songs" from Alan Cunningham, a self-confessed forger of folk songs (again documented in his letters).

As we don't have a definitive copy of what Sharpe gave Scott, the most likely conclusion is that Sharpe probably fed Scott a fragment (perhaps a couple of verses) and Scott "filled it out". It may have been all Sharpe's work of course (he was well up to rewriting fragmentary songs himself).

This is all to say that "Twa Corbies" is almost certainly not ancient itself. A Friesian version might be interesting, specially if it links closely to the (definitely old) English song.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:45 AM

Possibly a bit of a red herring here, but there is a version of 'The Three Ravens' communicated to Motherwell by Andrew Crawfurd and collected by him from Mary MacQueen (who had Ayrshire connections). Emily Lyle of the School of Scottish Studies in Edinburgh has published a two volume edition of Crawfurd's Collection which contains some tunes, and several songs that didn't reach Motherwell; she also instigated the recording of all the ballads associated with the said Mary MacQueen, sung by Jo Miller.
However, I have heard another tune than the Breton one to 'The Twa Corbies' -- it was sung by John Eaglesham (erstwhile singer and concertina player with The Clutha and, latterly, Stramash). He thought he had found it in a book somewhere, but couldn't recollect which one! It was similarly modal in nature.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:53 AM

Just to add that it was Morris Blythman who set the Scottish version of Twa Corbies to the Breton tune.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:07 AM

There are a few tunes - see Bronson.

One that Bronson didn't include was this parody:

  X:1
  T:The Corbie and the Crow
  S:Edinburgh University Library Mic.M.605 (William Macmath MSS)
  Z:Jack Campin, Valentines Day 2000
  M:C
  L:1/4
  K:F
  C|A>G Ac|A>G Ac|d>c cA |c2 z||
  A|G>F GA|G>F GA|cf  A>G|F3  |]

The corbie wi' his roupie throat ca'd frae the leafless tree,
"Come ow'r the loch! Come ow'r the loch! Come ow'r the loch tae me!"

The crow pit up her sooty heid, looked frae her nest whaur she lay,
And gied a fluff wi her rusty wings, and cried "Whaur tae, whaur tae?"

"To pyke a deid man lying there, ahint yon mickle stane".
"Is he fat, is he fat, is he fat, is he fat? If no we'll let him alane".

"He's frae merry England come to steal oor sheep and kill oor deer".
"I'll come, I'll come, for an Englishman is aye the best o' cheer".

"We'll breakfast on his bonnie breest and on his back we'll dine,
For the lave hae gane to their countrie and ne'er come back sin-syne".

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:11 AM

There is a Scottish tune - I don't have the source or Bronson but from memory it was taken down by Alexander Campbell from someone surnamed Shortreed in Jedburgh, and Campbell published it in Albyn's Anthology and Bronson reproduces it. A good tune, too, in a 'stretched out' sounding 3/2. I've seen it on the net too, try the abc finder.

Please don't knock Scott, he's so frequently accused of faking and I don't believe a word of it. He was no more perfect than the rest of us but all his collating, altering and editing was freely admitted, and was no more and often far less than most singers do to ballads. I have, at any rate, been assured of this by a someone who knows Keith Harry's PhD thesis on Scott's sources. Moreover, Scott's own style is recognisably not the style of the older ballads.

Scott's politics are very unfashionable and not to my taste, but his integrity has integrity and his scholarship and local knowledge is excellent. Cunningham may be another matter, Sharpe, I have no evidence but he seems from the little I know to have been a conscientious recorder.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:20 AM

In Friesian ? Is that a bit of a cow to sing ?

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: bubblyrat
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:11 AM

What is it called, then ?? "De Twee Kraaien " ?? The Villan might know ,or El Greco, both Dutch speakers, although Friesian is a bit trickier per se !

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:18 AM

Something like "Twa Corbu".

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:12 AM

Jack - you might try contacting Nanne Kalma, who certainly speaks and sings in Friesian and used to run and teach several bands. Here's a contact page for him: Nanne (email at the bottom). (He's been over here several times and his English is excellent - you don't need to communicate in Friesian. He's also very into Esperanto - recorded songs in it!). Say hello from me if you contact him.

Mick

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: open mike
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:21 PM

isn't a corbie the same as a crow (or raven?) Corvis is the latin name
for crows and jays...

is theis the same song as
two crows sat upon a wall??

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:45 PM

A Corbie is indeed a crow Mike, Corvidae. At least around central New York it is. I recently learned there is a crow relation to the Jays and Jacks, Magpies, Jackdaws, Bluejays. Look at the strength of the beaks as an indicator but don't don't count the big pileated wood pecker in that group.

A Corby is also a shot of low rent whiskey in this neighborhood.
"Gimme a draft and a Corby backplease."

I have only heard Twa Corbies by Paul McNeill. Anyone know what that melody is? "As I was waukin' all a lane"

Does Sharpe = Cecil Sharpe?

Don

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:58 PM

Speaking Dutch is about as much use as speaking English when it comes to Friesian.

The translation is, as far as I remember by Klaas Bruinsma and is called 'de Twa Roeken' which was recorded long ago by Friesian singer Doede Veenman.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:00 PM

Google turns up this:

De twa roeken

wylst ik allinne gyng myn paad
heard' ik twa roeken oan 'e praat
de iene tsjin de oare sei:
wêr helje wy ús miel hjoed wei?
wêr helje wy ús miel hjoed wei?

dêr oan 'e griene dyk yn't gea
dêr leit sûnt koart in ridder dea
en nimmen wit dat hy dêr leit
inkeld syn houk, syn hûn, syn breid
inkeld syn houk, syn hûn, syn breid

syn houk fangt fûgels as syn bút
syn hûn is om de hazzen út
syn breid hat immen oars ta diel
sa ha wy jûn in skoander miel
sa ha wy jûn in skoander miel

syn wite hals is dy ta bút
ik pik syn blauwe eagen út
in lokke fan syn gouden hier
is foar ús nêst in tek en sier
is foar ús nêst in tek en sier

om him lit mannich minsk' in trien
mar wêr't er is, dat wit gjinien
syn blanke bonken, bleat en njoer
dêr waait de wyn foar ivich oer
dêr waait de wyn foar ivich oer

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Betsy
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:01 PM

Maybe the singing of the song had something to do with Dave Tierney from Gateshead - he married Greet - from Sneek (Snits in Fries) in Friesland some 30+ years ago where he has lived ever since. He organises tours for Celtic type performers , organises a Shanty choir and can could knock out a song himself.Speaks fluent Dutch and Friesian so translating wouldn't be a problem for him.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:08 PM

"Corbie" means "crow" in Scots, but "crow" usually means "rook".

It's "three crows sat upon a wall", completely different song. "Three Ravens" is the one that's the same family as "Twa Corbies".

An entirely unrelated tune:

  X:362
  T:Da Corbie an' da Craw
  B:Ringing Strings, Tom Anderson (Lerwick 1983)
  Z:Nigel Gatherer
  L:1/4
  M:4/4
  K:D
  B|A2FD E2=c2|EFGE =CDEC|DDFD   E2 =c2|EFGE   [G,3D3]:|
  F|AddA d2 df|efec  d2FA|A,dd>c d2  eg|f>de>c  d2  AF |
    Addc d2 df|efec  d2FA|dB=cA  B2  Gc|E>FG>E [G,3D3]|]

I just remembered the author of that parody - the Rev. Alexander "Jupiter" Carlyle of Inveresk, who was something like the chaplain of the Scottish Enlightenment.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM

Peter - that's astounding You could sing that in Scotland and three-quarters of it would be perfectly understandable.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

It would probably even closer if you heard it.

Anyhow, FWIW I have a two volume collection 'Songs of the North' which is undated but appears to be from the second half of the 19th century. The Twa Corbies is in that, the words pretty much identical to the versions that were popular during the 1970s and after.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: KathWestra
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 02:43 PM

Linguistically, Friesian is in the same family as Middle English, while Dutch is a Germanic language. That explains why Peter's verses would be understandable in Scotland, and maybe not so much in the Netherlands. This is a fascinating thread for a traditional song enthusiast with West Michigan Friesian roots who's also a language junkie! Thanks, Jack, for starting the discussion.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

"Linguistically, Friesian is in the same family as Middle English, while Dutch is a Germanic language. That explains why Peter's verses would be understandable in Scotland, and maybe not so much in the Netherlands". (KathWestra)

Friesian, Dutch, English are all Germanic or Teutonic languages and as such Peter's verses would be understood in Scotland AND in the Netherlands. I remember cycling in the Netherlands with Geordie McIntyre sometime in the late 50's when we/I could hold a limited conversation with a Dutch family who invited us in for tea. It has been said that if James the sixth had kept his court in Scotland then our langauge would be similar to Friesian ... maybe an exageration, but pertinant to this thread.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:08 PM

These verses would not make a lot of sense to a Dutch speaker, some of it, yes, a lot of it, no.

I know the Scottish version and through that I can get from the Friesian version to Dutch. I am not so sure I'd get the gist of it if I didn't come pre-armed with that knowledge.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:38 PM

"Does Sharpe = Cecil Sharpe?"

in this case Sharpe = Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe, not Cecil

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:48 PM

In the 50s I only spoke Lowland Scots but I (now) speak Danish and German and, coupled with Lowland Scots, this fourth verse posted above can be understood instantly by me (and also by a Dutch friend of mine):

syn wite hals is dy ta bút
ik pik syn blauwe eagen út
in lokke fan syn gouden hier
is foar ús nêst in tek en sier
is foar ús nêst in tek en sier

I think when the lines are spoken, for example 'eagen' pronounced with the 'g' softened sounds like 'een' in Scots ('eyes' in English) and other examples taken from the verses would show that Dutch/Flemish speakers would understand a great deal. The connection between Dutch/Flemish/Platt-Deutsch is very close: the German word for eyes, for example, is 'augen' (hard 'g').

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:01 PM

I have only heard Twa Corbies by Paul McNeill. Anyone know what that melody is?

Look round other threads on this song. I've never heard of Paul McNeill, but most likely he was singing the Breton ballad tune "An Alarh" ("The Swan"), which as Jim MacLean says was attached to the Scottish ballad by Morris Blythman (pen name "Thurso Berwick") in the 1950s.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:03 PM

Thank you Matt and Jack.

D

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:32 PM

I was once told that the Scots are the Frieslanders who could swim; or conversely the Frieslanders are the Scots who couldn't swim. (Of course we're using "Scots" in its later sense, not the original sense of the Gaelic people who migrated from Ireland to Scotland.)

Richard

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:11 PM

Here for the record is the Breton tune as I first learned it - I came across this booklet before ever hearing the Scottish ballad. There are quite a few rhythmic differences from the way most people sing it in Scotland these days, and bugger the folk process, I like the original better.

  X:1
  T:An Alarh
  S:Kendal'ch: "Kanomp Uhel", Cooperative Breizh, La Baule, 1977
  M:2/4
  L:1/8
  Q:1/4=80
  K:AMin
    E|       A  B      c  z | A2 G      G   |[M:2/8] A
  w:Eun      a- larc'h eun,   a- larc'h tre-         mor
    E|[M:2/4]A  B      c  z | A2 G      G   |[M:2/8] A
  w:Eun      a- larc'h eun,   a- larc'h tre-         mor
    c |[M:2/4]c    d    e>    e   |d>   c  (c2 | B4)||
  w:War       lein tour moal  kas- tell Ar- vor_! 
  P:Chorus
     A   B    c     B/   A/ | A    G/   G/  A z |HE2 z2|
  w:Din! din! daon! d'an em-  gann d'an em- gann, o!
    A    B    c     B/   A/ | A    G   HA2     |]
  w:Din! din- daon! d'an em-  gann ez   an!

I never met Blythman, but I once sang "The Twa Corbies" that way with one of his close friends listening: she thought he would have liked what I did with it. (I was using a Black Sea fiddle for a drony accompaniment, no attempt to boogie it up as most singer-guitarists do).

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Mysha
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 11:33 PM

Hi,

I'm a bit late, but: Yes, Twa Corbies was translated to Frisian as Twa Roeken, by Klaas Bruinsma, and appears on Frustraesjebloes by Doede Veenman, 1978. Though it's Veenman's arrangement, it's similar to the currently popular melody, which I assume would be The Swan. I don't think Dave Tierney had anything to do with this; I'm not even sure he already lived here at the time.

I've been thinking about (in fact trying to sing to myself) a macaronic version, if I can get the Scottish to sound a bit less English. I would like to play with these two versions that would be different, yet both understandable. But I wonder if more distinction between the melodies would work: So now that it was mentioned, was there indeed a different tune for Twa Corbies before the 1950s? And if so, does anyone know where I would find (or much faster: hear) it?

Regarding the age of the song: when I started thinking about singing this one, I did an Internet check on the origins. For both Twa Corbies and Three Ravens, first-known dates of approximately 1600 were given. I have no idea how trustworthy, but for what they are worth: A bit too early for Scott, and no proof which one is the original.

Bye
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: IanC
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:51 AM

Mysha

Please read the othrer threads on the subject. This will give you an insight into the origins of the song. The "Twa Corbies" version first appears a little after 1800 with Scott. It's clearly based on the earlier (circa 1600) English song, so that the 1600 dating is correct for both (in a way).

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:23 AM

So now that it was mentioned, was there indeed a different tune for Twa Corbies before the 1950s? And if so, does anyone know where I would find (or much faster: hear) it?

As I mentioned above I have a nineteenth century collection that gives another air for the song. But you're likely to find it in one of the other threads.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:20 AM

Some kind soul has transcribed the Shortreed version, I found it on John Chambers' abc tune finder, posted below, I take no credit or blame for it. If you go there you can get it to play a midi of the tune for you. The melody is written in 2/4 but in groups of 3 bars, I hear it in 3/2. Gordon Mooney recorded it in the 80's, I think he minorised it IIRC. It's a fine tune and a good alternative to the Breton one.

X: 1
T:Twa Corbies
S:Digital Tradition, threrav3
B:From Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads, Bronson
B:Collected from Thomas Shortreed, Jedburgh
Z:dt:threrav3
M:2/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
W:As I cam' by yon auld house end
W:I saw twa corbies sittin thereon,
W:The tane unto the t'other did say,
W:"O whare sall we gae dine the day?" (repeat last line)
W:
W:"Whare but by yon new fa'en birk,
W:There, there lies a new slain knight;
W:Nae mortal kens that he lies there
W:But his hawks and hounds, and his ladye fair.
W:
W:"We'll sit upon his bonny breast bane,
W:And we'll pick out his bonny gray een;
W:We'll set our claws intil' his yallow hair
W:And big our bow'r, it's a' blawn bare.
W:
W:My mother clekit me o' an egg,
W:And brought me up i' the feathers gray,
W:And bade me flee where'er I wad,
W:For winter wad be my dying day.
W:
W:Now winter it is come and past,
W:And a' the birds are biggin' their nests,
W:But I'll flee high aboon them a'
W:And sing a sang for summer's sake.
K:F
D|G>A B>c|d2 g2|d3B|c>B A>G|
AA B>c|dB A>G|
G2 d>-B|G2 f-e|d>B A>G|G2 d>-B|G2 z||

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:12 AM

Jack, I have listened to your version and find it varies very little from what Morris had in mind when he sang it. Norman Buchan printed it in his 101 Scottish songs and put the whole tune in 3/4 timing. Morris sang it more freely, as you have done, and not as strictly as Norman suggests although some notes are elongated.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: scouse
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:20 AM

There was a group from up north here in dear "Cloggieland." called "Kat in t' Zeil." who sang many Freisan songs back in the 80's and 90's. They could be still around.Perhaps they collected it??

As Aye,

Phil.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:44 AM

Can anyone who has Bronson confirm that what I posted is accurate? Somehow I've got into my head that Bronson's (from Campbell) was mixolydian, whereas this is dorian. They both work.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:02 AM

Not quite. Bronson has this:

  X:1
  T:Twa Corbies
  B:Bronson, Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads
  B:Collected from Thomas Shortreed, Jedburgh
  M:2/4
  L:1/8
  K:GDor
     D |G>A B>c|d2  g2 |d3
     B |c>B A>G|A     B |G>A B>c|d     B |c>B A>G|G2  d>B|G2
  (Hfe)|d>B A>G|G2  d>B|G2z|] 

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:19 AM

Trying again - that got corrupted because I forgot to convert the < characters to HTML codes.

  X:1
  T:Twa Corbies
  B:Bronson, Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads
  B:Collected from Thomas Shortreed, Jedburgh
  M:2/4
  L:1/8
  K:GDor
     D |G>A B>c|d2  g2 |d3
     B |c>B A>G|A<A f2 |A3
     B |G>A B>c|d<d g2 |d3
     B |c>B A>G|G2  d>B|G2
  (Hfe)|d>B A>G|G2  d>B|G2z|] 

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:20 AM

Thanks Jack, and good to see you here, looks like some notes missing in yr abc though?

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:36 PM

The same thing happened to my first try as yours - the whole tune is actually there if you look at the HTML source for this page, but you can't see it because any < sign is interpreted as starting an HTML tag.

In any tune you paste in, you need to replace < and > with &lt; and &gt; respectively.

Subject: RE: Twa Corbies in Friesian
From: GUEST,Skelte
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM

Doede Veeman has his own website:
http://www.doedeveeman.nl/

Klick on 'lieten' and scroll down to 'De twa roeken'. There you will find the text, sheetmusic and a sound sample of the 'twa corbies' in Frisian language.