BS: translations from the English

Subject: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:47 AM

Last night I finished the new Reginald Hill mystery, 'Midnight Fugue.' It is somewhat byzantine (family code for littered with corpses and with as many twists as a crepe-paper streamer). But it's still a good book.

It's another Dalziel-Pascoe yarn, set in Mid-Yorkshire. But enough of that, here's the stuff to translate:

1. This man... was evidently Owen's KING CHARLES'S HEAD.

2. the BYE-ELECTION. (I thought it was by-election.)

3. the day's DIVAGATIONS.

This one is not a matter of cross-pond variation. Reginald Hill conducts Word Rescue the way others conduct breed rescue with dogs. This one means 'wandering (when walking) or digressing (when talking.) I'm telling you this so you can feel superior when you read the book and enounter it.

4. [said of a journalist] "The others call him NINE TEN. Knows more about tomorrow than he does about today."



5. ...the EPISEMATIC markings...

Another word rescue. These are markings by which a member of a species recognizes another of its own kind

6. of the WAG..   What's a WAG?

7. with the gentle courtesy of WAYNE ROONEY on a bad day...

8, ...he didn't press the HASH key...

Just an observation here. We Americans call it the 'pound key.' That would never work for you guys.

9. ...tell him what's GOING OFF and where...

Is this police lingo or the usual way to put it? Because we say 'what's going ON..."

10. ...confronted by a jumped-up YARDIE...

11. ...a wasteland of derelict mills that successive BUNTERESQUE councils promised to transform...

One final note. Recently I read a book about English that said the use of 'thee' and 'thou' died out in the 14th Century. I could only respnd, "Tha's not abreast of Mid-Yorkshire CID and James Herriot, but."

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:18 AM

I missed another Word Rescue:

...the Dalziel EIDOLON...

'eidolon - an unsubstantial image or phantasm.' Now we know.

Let's see if we can get Spaw to use this word.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: gnomad
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:43 AM

1. ??
2. So did I
3. New to me too, thanks
4. ??
5. See ans 3
6. Wives and Girlfriends (usually of some worthless celebrity/sportsman)
7. A footballer, I don't follow sports but seem to recall he is supposedly uglier & dumber than most.
8. You're right, dunno why you now call it pound, I seem to recall it being a hash-mark in American stories from the 1940s.
9. Either is used in Britain, slightly more excitement implied in the "off" usage, but no real difference.
10. Street-gang member, probably of Jamaican origin see Wikipedia
11. Resembling Billy Bunter a foolish, gluttonous, pulic schoolboy from fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:50 AM

I'm a bit confused Leenia - Do you need translaltions and explanations ?

WAG = refers particularly to Footballers Wives and Girlfriends

Wayne Rooney is a Man United Footballer

Yardies are Jamaican Criminals

So there's a start

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:05 PM

1 King Charles's Head - something with which one is irrationally obsessed to the extent of never being able to exclude it from one's thoughts - as is the eccentric Mr Dick in Dickens's David Copperfield, who would like to be a writer, but cannot keep King Charles's Head out of whatever he writes.
2. By-Election — strictly correct: but Chambers Dict gives bye- as alternative prefix to by- in sense of 'subsidiary', so may be perhaps regarded as alternatives.
6. WAG - a fashionable tabloid-press-coined acronym a few years back for Wives·And·Girlfriends of fashionable and prominent professional soccer players who would accompany them for purposes of shopping and celebration when they went abroad to play international matches: one of most newsworthy of whom was Colleen, fianceé & subsequently wife of ...
7. ... Wayne Rooney, Manchester United and England striker and prolific goal-scorer [ironice — he is not noted for gentle courtesy even on a good day]
9. Going off - idiom for in the process of occurring (both Coming-off & [as you observe], more conventionally Going-on are sort-of colloquial alternatives).
9. Yardie - probably, in the context, a police officer called in by local police to assist in an investigation from the main Criminal Investigation Department at New Scotland YARD, London, known colloquially as The Yard.
11. Bunteresque - usually comically obese, deceitful & cowardly, like Billy Bunter ("the fattest schoolboy on earth"), a long-ago humorous novel strip-comic character invented by Frank Richards [pseud. of Charles Hamilton, 1876-1961]; hence over-nourished and spoilt in temperament.Used of a council perhaps with an overtone of self-importantly tho metaphorically over-expanded.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:09 PM

... tho Yardie could of course ref, as others above suggest, to member of West Indian drug gang - depends on the context; as this a detective novel and he 'jumped-up' [i.e. irritatingly self-important] I thought the Scotland Yard detective explanation the more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: gnomad
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:11 PM

Oh yes, Thee and Thou; still in some use, though thou is frequently rendered as tha' or even ta'. Thy also in some use though frequently with a shorter i sound, notably in the reflexive thiself construction.

14th Century is far too early, there are dozens of examples in Shakespeare (1560s to 1616) and the 1662 Book of Common Prayer is also full of them. It remained in daily use until the latter half of the 20th Century, when its language was still well understood, though in dwindling current use.

These forms of speech are still current, though becoming less so, in North and West Yorkshire, mainly among the older generations but not exclusively. Nationwide the younger generations are sadly affected by TV speech and many adopt accents and speech patterns unnatural to their origins, as do some of the older ones too, Blair being a prime example. James Herriot's old practise is still functioning about 30 miles west of here, he wasn't exaggerating or romanticising the speech patterns of the time and area.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rumncoke
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:42 PM

Tha should ear me readin out ot t'King James version o t'bible - not that tha wouldst unerstan but one word i'ten but ah'm teld it's an education for them as as on'y ever eard acters and t'like talkin owd fashioned on t' telly.

And it's not as though av gotten an accent or owt, it tha could ear sum ot owd lads gooin in - theein and thaain awaa - tha'ud not mak ony sense out on it.



Oh yes - things 'going off' are usually a bit livelier than what is 'going on'.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:52 PM

Not pertinent, but 'going off' when applied to food means spoiling. North American only or also UK?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:54 PM

I am reading an Australian mystery novel. I will post a few from it later today.
English, a wonderful language!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM

Coming back to the 'Yardie" question — it is a convention of the English detective novel that the local force will generally resent their Chief Constable's decision to 'call in the Yard', as a vote of no-confidence in their own ability to solve the case; esp, as would appear to be the case here in the eyes of Superintendent Dalziel & Inspector Pascoe [or whatever ranks they may have achieved in this particular novel], the incomer is often represented as officious, patronising, and self-important (all attributes subsumed in that meaningful adjective 'jumped-up').

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:45 PM

Q - Food "going off" = going stale or rotten, is same usage in UK.
As for usage in the book, I would I would tend to use "What's going on?" as a query about the location I had just arrived at, something "going on" might be long term and not exciting.
Fireworks, on the other hand, definitely "go off", as do explosions. In the context of policing, it is likely to be where, and what "the action" is.

Divagations also a new one for me. Obviously another word rescued from obscurity.

I really must get around to reading some of the Dalziel and Pascoe stories. I have enjoyed the telly versions and ought to get my finger out.
Just for the record, for those who have only seen the surname name in print, Dalziel (Scottish?) is pronounced Dee-yell.


On the subject of Thee and Thou's, I grew up in Mid Yorkshire, specifically Bradford. Usage of thees and thous tended to be more common in my grandmother's generation and not as common when I was growing up (early 60's). We still used the glottal 't for "the", but in general would use "your" rather than "thy". There were exceptions, and sometimes traditional usage and modern would mix and match.
The place where use of Thee is still common natural speech is Barnsley in South Yorkshire (West Riding for traditionalists).

Quack!
Geoff the Duck (We fly backwards over Bradford to keep the muck out of our eyes).

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rumncoke
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:37 PM

You got me - I lived in Barnsley from the age of 2 until I was 18 and left for Polytechnic in the South, where they pretended they could not understand me.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:46 PM

From Number sign (#) at Wikipedia:

"In most English-speaking countries outside North America, the symbol is usually called the hash mark, hash sign, or hash symbol, and the corresponding telephone key is the hash key."

It doesn't say how it got that name. Do you suppose it's because it resembles the crosswise cuts you make, when chopping up meat to make hash?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:17 PM

Rumncoke - if they were from the South, they weren't pretending...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Tangledwood
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM

It doesn't say how it got that name. Do you suppose it's because it resembles the crosswise cuts you make, when chopping up meat to make hash?

I thought it was a corruption, or perhaps variation, of hatch; as in cross-hatch.

hatch
tr.v. hatched, hatch·ing, hatch·es
To shade by drawing or etching fine parallel or crossed lines on.
n.
A fine line used in hatching.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:13 PM

LOVE THIS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:44 PM

Thanks everybody, for the pleasant and informative responses.

As for 'yardie,' the drug-dealer definition fits the case.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 03:57 PM

According to Oxford, hash (5): to chop into small pieces from Old French hacher to chop up.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

I think the connection between hash key and cross-hatch (in art) is on the right track.

Somebody said he didn't understand why Americans call it the pound key. It's because it was the sign for a pound in weight.

With this book, I've gone to the effort of looking up Reginald Hill's obscure words. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

We have a deal - he can use all the obscure words he wants, and I don't have to read any passages in italics. There seems to be an unwritten rule that nothing truly pertinant to solving the mystery is in italics.

[How do you spell 'pertinant' anyway?]

I understand that York hosts an early music festival. I dream of going there someday.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 08:42 PM

What about number 4, the Nine-ten thing?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:08 PM

"pertinEnt" -- mnemonic is to think of 'impertinent', whose basic meaning is 'irrelevant, tho has evolved to mean 'cheeky'...

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:28 PM

I guess that if "slowing down" and "slowing up" can mean the same thing, then "going on" and "going off" can do likewise.

The way prepositions are used in coined phrases sometimes seems to have little to do with their literal meanings. We all know the "up" has something to do with height, but when someone asks you to "wait up", they don't literally mean you should climb a ladder and wait at the top rung.

And as far as the "pound sign" thing goes, I'll never get used to it. To me, "#" is the "number sign". I don't think I've ever used it to indicate a pound. It's too easy to use the "lb." abbreviation. When some automated call system tells me to press the "pound sign" I have to stop and think which one it is. Same with the "star" button. It's not a %#$@& star, it's an asterisk!

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:22 AM

I don't think I've ever seen # used to mean lb. The most common use I've come across is to signify octal numbers, eg #77777777 = -1.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:46 AM

This may be pertinent, OTOH it may be totally misleading.

In the 1950's and early 60's, computers using Teletypes for input/output had a limited character set (64-char ASCII). For the UK market, the # symbol (unknown on this side of the Pond at the time) was replaced by £ - using the same ASCII code. So equipment intended for the other market printed the "wrong" character, a frequent source of confusion for those not in the know. Maybe the two signs eventually came to be thought of as equivalent.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Ringer
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:11 AM

The "flowery-L-used-to-denote-the-pound-sterling" symbol is a continual source of problems on computer-printers, particularly older ones. I've lost count of the times I've had to change a printer setting to say "print £ when sent #" (or vice-versa) because users say "It won't print a pound"

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:34 AM

Leeneia:

Thank you for this thread and your initial informative mss.

in my neck of the woods a WAG stands for "Wild Ass Guess", it is a genuine term for when you have to start with a number just to address a first cut at a problem.

I'm gonna assume a by-election is an election between a general election, which may have different context between US and GB. It's a term I've not used in US.

Theres a cute American term from the south that I only learned from reading Cold Sassy Tree and then I heard it in a Kinky Friedman Song:

"he's stupid or crazy one." The 'one' meaning that the subject is 'one of' the selection stupid or crazy. It's almost mathematical in its structure.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:46 AM

A 'by-election' here in UK is a subsidiary election in only one constituency caused by the death or resignation of its Member of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:35 PM

I wonder if 'bye-election' started as a joke. Next it will be called a 'bye-bye election.'

I've been thinking about Fat Andy and his archaic dialect. (Of course I realized that few people talk like that anymore.)

Dalziel is using the old speech to send a message, and that message is, "I'm not one of your kind." Whether the listener is a subordinate, an amoral executive, a drunken lout, or one of The Better Sort, Dalziel is saying "We don't have a bond. We will not wink at anything. There's is nothing that we won't bring up." He represents the Old Order.

When he's not being the boss, he drops it. For example, when he hears that a woman's little daughter died, he says, 'I'm sorry, luv. Didn't know. Must have been terrible.' The situation calls for straightforward, everyday English, and he uses it.

Long ago I studied 'Antigone,' where the old order was implacable and unchangeable. Dalziel represents that.

Pascoe is modern, rational, and reasonable. Where Dalziel pounds the truth out of people, Pascoe sidewinds past their defenses. Don't trust either of them. Better yet, keep to the straight and narrow way.   

Q - I look forward to your post on Australian terms.

A tip - when a page has a good term, dog-ear the bottom of it. (Other people never dog-ear the bottom.) Later you can find all the dog-ears and type them up.

Leadfingers, your ""he's stupid or crazy, one" reminds me of Dalziel's "he's stupid or crazy, but." Different meaning, but same prosody.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:16 PM

This use of "but" as a discrete interjection at end of a sentence represents a sort of emphasis of the content of the preceding sentence. It is, I think, a purely Northern English usage, which I associate particularly with 'Geordie', the dialect of Newcastle-uon-Tyne — tho here {'D&P'} it appears to be used in Yorkshire also.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM

Going off -
Of food = going bad.
Of a relationship = cooling down
Of cement = hardening
Of a situation = about to explode
Of a bomb = ditto

I never thought about it before but what a usefull muti-purpose phrase!

Ey up.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:47 PM

A by-election in Canada is much the same as in UK- an election in a riding (defined voting district) caused by death or resignation.

I will get to the Australian mystery shortly- but I do not, definitely do not dog-ear, mark or otherwise deface my books. It is a miserable practice, akin to spitting on the sidewalk. Harrr-umpf!
I enjoyed the Dalziel and Pasco mysteries on the BBC TV versions distributed here in Canada. I think they removed expressions that might be unknown to a general English-speaking audience, since I don't recall any that boggled me. I may buy the DVDs eventually. I have one or two of the books, but haven't read them yet.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM

I think that going off and going on are a difference in tense. Going on is present and going off is future, as in what is going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:42 PM

Q - I suspect that in the telly versions, they probably removed expressions for the benefit of Southern England, so THEY could understand.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Tangledwood
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM

- but I do not, definitely do not dog-ear, mark or otherwise deface my books. It is a miserable practice, akin to spitting on the sidewalk. Harrr-umpf!

Hurray Q! You may borrow my books anytime.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

Aye 'appen the' 'as, Geoff lad, 'appen the' 'as.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:08 PM

I've been re-reading the best parts. Here are some more:

1. I don't have the exact reference, but near the beginning is something about "the great eastern door" of the cathedral. Cathedrals usually have their big door at the west.

Is York an exception?

2. a BOULEVERSED beetle

3. a MILLS and BOON fan

4. I believe there's a wrong word used in this one: "in a bass-baritone more leathery than velvety but nonetheless melismatic he boomed out the opening lines of 'Happy Days are Here Again.'"

I think he means 'melodious.' In a melismatic song syllables have more than one note. Such as

and he shall puri - fa ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah -y the sons of Levi.

5. He (a cop) was more concerned with paper chases than BLUES AND TWOS hot pursuit.

6. She was long practiced in the art of SCIA-MIMICRY.

7. I had to smile at this one: Her expression as she made her way back to Maggie was GORGONIAN.

I saw that it was derived from the Gorgon Medusa, of course, but my first thought was of the sea creature, the gorgonian, or sea fan.
She was on a yacht; maybe she'd fallen overboard and had a sea fan plastered on her face.
=======
Les, that was an astute observation about the tense in 'going on' and 'going off.'

I enjoy hearing from all you northerners on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:20 PM

Blues and twos is when an emergency vehicle has on its two-tone horn and blue flashing lights. In America, I think they use red lights ("Hurricane").

Mills and Bon is a publisher of cheap formulaic romantic novels.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:24 AM

Re Dog-earing pages — my own proctice is a light, so erasable if required, page ref & pencil note on the back blank fly-leaf: saves dog-earing pages or inserting bits of paper that keep falling out.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:43 AM

MatttheGM, the suffix 'but' is commonly used here in NZ.
A typical sentence might be "He's a bit of a hard case. -All right, but."
Means 'he's a comedian, but a good bloke.'

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:51 AM

Thanks, Gurney - but my name is Michael [or Mike] - not Matt[hew], nor Mark as someone else seems to think.

— Just in interests of accuracy, you understand: I am a believer in the old saying, "It doesn't matter what anybody calls you, so long as they don't call you 'Plum·Pudding' and eat you up!"; but my watchword is ever "Accuracy matters".

Regards - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 01:26 AM

Don't know why I typed Matt. Possibly because I named my son that. Sorry.
And, I don't care what they call me, as long as it is in good time for meals.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:44 AM

"two-tone horn and blue flashing lights."

Thanks, Dave. I never would have guessed that. I was thinking 'two patrolmen in blue uniforms.'

Are the two tones still the infamous 'tri-tone,' the devil in music?

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:59 PM

This sounds like a good series. We'll have to keep an eye out for it... and we'll likely be back to be reminded of the translations!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:20 PM

In Oz, the term 'jellybeans' refers to a marked police car, with occupants.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:31 PM

And when the Victorian police acquired their Dauphin helicopter, with its distinctive turbine noise distinguishing it from all other aircraft over Melbourne, the Richmond teenagers instantly named it "The Pork Chopper".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:36 PM

You're right about the door in the Minster. It's at the west end and it's known as the West Door. There's no door at the east end.

I don't think that Yorkshiremen do that 'but' thing either, but Yorkshire's a big place and I haven't met everyone yet. You can always tell a Yorkshireman, but you can't tell him much.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:57 PM

Apparently the TV series has not been available on DVD in the U.S., but Amazon will have it in March 2010.

On the translation front, the author of this page says that the concluding "but" is for "however".

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:05 PM

Les in C - Indeed, as I said, I associate that 'but' with Geordie. But it appeared here in association with Dalziel & P, who are unarguably Yorkshire (& their author presumably also?), & apparently used in the sense I adumbrated of 'pay attention to what I've just said'. I particularly associate it with the Terry character [James Bolam] in the old 'Likely Lads' sitcoms, which had a Newcastle setting.

Subject: RE: BS: translations from the English
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:43 PM

I dogear the bottom of pages, too, but only to my own books, never to one borrowed!

This has inspired me. I think I will get down my granddad's four volume dictionary set from the late 1800s and see what words I can find which are not used much these days and/or meanings which may have changed.

I'll never forget learning, here, that what we call a "speed bump" is known as a "sleeping policeman" over there. I love that!