BS: The Quakers

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:55 PM

Up north, in England, I gather there are still those, not Friends, who use thee and thou, though I've not heard it myself. I would be reluctant to do it myself, since I would be absolutely bound to get the verb forms wrong. And it would be, as said above, the very opposite of the original intent.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:02 PM

But most, I think, see it is setting ourselves apart from others, which goes against the whole Equality and Simplicity testimonies.

Yes, that's pretty much how they explained it to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:43 PM

CarolC -- That makes sense. There are still some Friends who use Thee and Thou publicly, for reasons of principle. But most, I think, see it is setting ourselves apart from others, which goes against the whole Equality and Simplicity testimonies.

I use it occassionally, with friends online (if I remember), especially if I want to emphesize a cozy or affectionate tone between us, and also to help me keep track of the proper grammar and which form is the direct object and which is the indirect (Hey, I'm also a grammar geek, and a recovering English Major).

Mrrzy -- the form of that joke that I read was between a farmer and a mule, who'd never plow a straight row, and the Baptist farmer would mock the Quaker in the mule's hearing. So after the threat was made, the mule plowed the straightest rows in the county...

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:57 AM

The couple who told me about the use of 'thee' and 'thou' said that they still use it between themselves and at home with their families, but not in public.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 05:50 PM

Doc Watson used to tell a joke about a Quaker with a recalcitrant cow, and once when she'd kicked over the milk pail yet again, he said Well, Bossie, I can't strike thee, but do that again and I'll sell thee to a Baptist, and he'll kick the **** out of thee!

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 05:19 PM

CarolC --

Yes: "You" is the formal (and plural) form of the second person pronoun. Think of the "Royal 'We'" -- the monarch counted as more than one commoner, and spoke of him/herself that way, and expected you (thee) to do the same.

Friends said "Pish!" to that, since they believed everyone was singular and equal, and all part of the same family of man, so referred to everyone by the familiar term.

To bring music into this discussion, think of Robert Burns' "A man's a man for a' that" -- very Friendly sentiment.

It's this same reason that Quakers will not remove their hats when they come indoors (unless they're feeling too warm, or their head itches), as that's a sign of deference to their host's supposed higher social status.

My grandfather was a birthright Friend, and by his time, the use of "thee" and "thou" had already dropped out of use. However, Quakers in his community never referred to anyone as "Mister," "Miss," or "Mrs." Surname, as all these titles are versions of "master" and "mistress," and no human should be thought of as a master or mistress of another. Instead, when they are being formal, or writing a letter with a formal salutation, they'll refer to someone by their full name.

My grandmother confided in my mother (I think; it was my mother who passed the story on to me) that she was surprised and delighted to be introduced to my grandfather's parents as "Josephine Andrews" instead of "Miss Andrews" -- as a complete person in her own right, and not just her father's daughter.

Once, I was trying to register for something online -- it may have something official, like an absentee voting form, or something similar, I was not allowed to continue to the next page until I'd picked a formal title for myself -- Mr. Mrs. Ms. or Miss (Dr. and Rev. were in there, too. But I didn't want to lie). There was no "no title" option.

I think I was seeing red for the rest of the day. It was so ridiculous, especially since none of those titles add any relevent information to my file -- all they do is peg me in some gender or status catagory, and take up space in the database.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 12:17 PM

It's no surprise that Dilbert has poked his head into Quaker organization. It's true of any religious group. Double talk is a current business practice. This is a thread by itself.
Let's pussyfoot around with language to soften blows.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 11:52 PM

For those who may not be familiar with the acronym, "AFSC" refers to the American Friends Service Committee.

And it's as good a seque as any to post this bit of Friendly humor, that I've seen floating around the Web for years, always word-for-word, and always with the same attribution:

---

When I first came to work for AFSC, someone in Personnel (or perhaps Information Services) gave me a list of common phrases and their translation into plain language. This was back in the mid-1960's and it was old then. Lest it be lost forever, I thought I would share it with you all (and perhaps bring back fond memories for others).

"(Quakerism, particularly in its corporate expressions such as AFSC, has developed its own peculiar patois. In an effort to help orientate new staff, the following translations of commonly used phrases are offered.)

I have a concern.
(I understand this subject better than anyone here .)

Thee has a concern.
(Thee's stubborn isn't thee?)

He (she) has a concern.
(He (She) gets hold of an idea and just won't let up on it.)

Although I dislike being divisive, I cannot in conscience agree that this work should go forward in the manner proposed.
(Over my dead body!)

While we respect our friend's right to dissent, we hope he will feel able to unite himself with the group in this decision.
(O.K., buddy. Over your dead body!)

The name of that Friend would not have occurred to me.
(Good God! Not HIM!)

We forward the name of this friend with a strong recommendation that he be appointed immediately.
(We couldn't get anyone else; grab him quick before he changes his mind.)

Although budgetary exigencies indicate drastic cuts in the program, staff should not be alarmed.
(Somebody's going to get his throat cut, but nobody is to panic.)

While we appreciate your kind offer, we cannot think of any ways in which you could assist us in your forthcoming travels.
(Good-bye, good luck, and keep your nose out of our business along the way.)

I have certain hesitations.
(This always means NO!)

Staff are encouraged to be present.
(You better be there... or else.)

It has occurred to me while we have been discussing this...
(Stand back everybody...I've been thinking about this for weeks and I'm about to give you all the word on it.)

After a widely ranging discussion, the group was unable to reach consensus.
(It was a real knock-down, drag-out fight.)

We feel at this time that it would be appropriate for you to consider channels of service other than AFSC for your particular abilities.
(Your termination notice will be along next week.)

Courtesy : Shamelessly borrowed from Maria Pappalardo of Chestnut Hill Meeting

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 04:03 PM

I identify with the Friends more than any other organized religion, but haven't regularly attended Meeting since the mid-'70s (yeah, the Nixon era) when I was part of a group that met at Nason College in Springvale, ME. It was a mostly silent meeting and unaffiliated with a yearly meeting. Some of the members were long-time more traditional (at least in experience) Quakers from the Philadelphia area.

I like the Friends' social consciousness, equality of the sexes, non-violence and the fact that they don't insist on what you must believe regarding God.

It's less convenient now for me to attend Meeting and I don't have a strong need to worship in public.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:37 PM

I worked with the AFSC for a while. The Quakes were the only religion it seemed to me that had a handle on the madness of war. AFSC really does a great social service and they take their role seriously. Those Quakes are on the front line.

As all religious groups are, they were inconsistent. They were well-known for their
whaling in Nantucket, ( a bloody undertaking). Not non-violent with animals.

Being a musician when I attended meetings, I would be up the night before and would
unintentionally go to sleep. I liked being awakened however by the interruption of "concerns" when the participants would stand and share their views.

I like to see Quakes at Peace Demonstrations, too. They are quiet witnesses and not given
to ranting and shouting. Their philosophy in my interpretation is if you want peace in the world, then you should be really peaceful as a person.

I also like their "undue distinction between men". I don't like the idea of putting any human being on a pedestal. One inconsistency here is that you don't get to be a Friend by
just attempting to join. You gotta' be recognized by some. That's a little elitist.

So, there are different Quakes. But they have the most sane view of the futility of war.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:55 AM

We crossposted, CapriUni.

Yes, I learned not to put even the peaceful simple people like Quakers and the Amish up on too high of a pedestal after spending many years living closely among members of both groups. And I think that's only fair to the ones who are often put on pedestals. Nobody should have to live up to someone else's idea of who or what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:49 AM

One interesting thing that I learned while I was involved with the Friends Meeting, was that some birthright Quakers (people who are born Quaker) whose families had been Quakers for many generations, still use thee and thou rather than you. I was told by some birthright Quakers who were members of our meeting that Quakers never stopped using the terms because 'you' was originally the more formal term and implied that the one being spoken to was elevated above the speaker in status.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:45 AM

CarolC -- this is true.

And, like all humans, Quakers sometimes have difficulty bridging the gulf between their beliefs in the abstract and their actions in reality...

(looks around her at the clutter in her office, and mutters something about "Simplicity")

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 01:29 AM

I've known Quakers who believed in physical non-violence, but were very emotionally violent. I even knew two who, while they believed in physical non-violence, were physically fairly violent with children. They didn't think kids counted in the non-violence equation. I guess Quakers are people just like everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 09:03 AM

Being a Quaker Woman is quite an interesting take on the whole thing. The idea of equality of genders within the Quakers is refreshing I find.

I have attended several Friend's meetings and seldom did I ever come away without something being answered. It's quite a magical experience and it's spiritual significance can be far reaching. The whole non-judgemental approach is as exhilarating and helpful for anyone with faith as it is for those who have doubts, like me, but still have a spirituality they wish to examinine.

While generally being thought of as a Christian religion, one does not have to be a Christian. I have yet to meet a Quaker who did not have something 'peaceful' going on with them. I totally respect how and what they are.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 04:11 AM

You can find an excellent history of the early Quaker movement in Christopher Hill's 'The World Turned Upside Down: Radical Ideas During the English Revolution'.

William Cobbett in 'Rural Rides' was pretty vitriolic about Quaker financiers and businessmen and their part in the destruction of the 'cottage economy', decrying their capitalistic cunning and, especially the lending of money with interest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:33 AM

Guest, 999 -- Well, I mention that the company name "Quaker" (along with the image of a Quaker in the logo) was an advertising gimmick, earlier in this thread, here. But here's an outside link that gives a very brief history of the parent company, and attributed the name and logo to Henry Crowell: American Cereal Company

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 01:19 AM

Joe Offer --

regarding the Peaceable Kingdom: This version (from around 1845) was the one I grew up with; I think it was part of my household since before I was born (the print is now hanging in my bedroom in my house in Virginia)

As I understand it, Edward Hicks meant for each of the animals to stand in as an allegory for different "Weighty" (I.E. people of standing and respect) Friends within the Society, showing their flaws as well as their strengths... Well, it turns out that Edward's cousin, Elias Hicks, was at the center of the major split in the Society, between those who wanted to be more Christ- and Bible-Centric, and those who wanted the Society to be based more on personal revelation from the Inner Light.

When I first saw the image of Elias Hicks' portrait for the first time, online, his face looked vaguely familiar.

And then I realised who he reminded me of. What do you think -- do you see a family resemblence?

;-)

(My mother, btw, often said that that painting was a perfect illustration of our family philosophy -- Animals and children, front and center, while the grown-ups doing legal contracts and trade are way off in the distance)

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 06:22 PM

How intriguing! As a life long, heavily involved Quaker or member of the Religious Society of Friends, this thread has a beautiful assortment of strange, true, or moderately off the wall comments. I wish I had time to respond to each! Check many sources. No single one has all the "truth" if, in fact, there is any one truth amongst Friends. If one lives in the light of one's life, one chooses/finds/follows one's own inner guidance.

Saw a button back then: "Nixon's no Quaker. He's a faker." Philadelphia Yearly Meeting suggested to his home meeting that he was not a Quaker but that meeting in CA said he was. Each meeting has it's own personality; each Friend their own way of expressing who they are in the Quaker spectrum - from fundamentalist to non-theist.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM

"Please read the thread about the oats before repeating the joke - it's a rip off!"

Certainly. Right away. Where's the link.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM

Great song by Sydney Carter   about George Fox
'Old Leather Breeches and Shaggy Shaggy Locks.'

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 07:49 AM

I am wondering if Friends should not stand up to the current idea that haggling should return as being in some way fairer to the customer.

Bad Quakers - Bryant and May match factory, of the phossy jow and the match girls strike.

Please read the thread about the oats before repeating the joke - it's a rip off! And leads to difficulties with domain names.

Song connection.

One Friend went to sleep, went to sleep in meeting,
One Friend and the clerk, went to sleep in meeting...

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,Llanfair
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:12 AM

I have done a lot of reseasch into my Dad's family history, and have had problems finding the parents of Ellis Pugh, from Dolgellau. A hundred years before the Ellis I'm researching, there was another Ellis Pugh who, hounded by Welsh suspicion of Quakers, emigrated to Pennsylvania, where he wrote the first book on the subject.
Bearing in mind that Welsh families tend to use the same christian names in every generation, I can only assume that I am descended from the ex-pat Ellis.
Being non-conformists, it is hard to find any records before the first census. I'll have to spend a day or two at Aberystwyth library I think, to find more information.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 03:33 AM

Quaker Beliefs - Youtube - An Interview

History of the Religious Society of Friends - Wiki



Elizabeth Fry - A wonderful woman

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: rich-joy
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:51 AM

There are some publications available on the Net, by Richenda Scott, regarding the history of the Quakers.

By the by, she and I share a first name and I had never heard of another whilst growing up in West Aussie (Down Under) in the 50s. I was later told that "Richenda" was a family name of the Gurney's, one of whom (Elizabeth), married into the Quakers via prison reformer Joseph Fry. Thereafter, there was at least one "Richenda" every generation or two.



Cheers, R-J

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Janie
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 01:35 AM

I'm not Quaker, and do not know much about the faith doctrines of religious Friends. I do know that I am more than satisfied with Carolina Friends School, which my teenage son has attended for the last 5 years, and which continues its affiliations with the Durham and Orange Co. Quaker meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:07 PM

Poppagator, can't find this link on facebook. Could you check if its accurate, or send me a link. Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: olddude
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM

Jeri :-)

they fight violence with love, how cool is that

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:07 PM

Dan, haha.

It's a shame InOBU isn't around. (He's a Quaker.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: olddude
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:52 PM

They make the very best soldiers also

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM

Imagine how many bar codes there would have to be.
Imagine Walmart checkout people trained at haggling and a having to justify to their managers having "given away" a penny a pound on the sweet potatoes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

Apparently we owe our modern idea of pricing goods in shops to the Quakers. Before that nothing had a price and it was all done by haggling rather like that scene with the beard on the market stall in "The Life of Brian" - the Quaker idea was that everything had a fair price, and their shops became very popular because of this resulting in other shops adopting the system.

Try to imagine the scenes at the Tesco checkout if the Quakers hadn't bequeated us this.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM

correct, quaker meetings are silent.
sometimes[generally] more regular members,or occasionally visiting quakers will get up and talk about something, that they have been thinking about during the week, there are no songs during the meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 04:20 PM

A couple of years ago, I went to a music camp at the Quaker Center outside Santa Cruz (California). A majority of the participants were Quakers. As a progressive Catholic, I fit in with them quite well. They seemed like Unitarians who were a little closer to Christian beliefs.

Many of them joked about their experiences with the snootiness of "Philadelphia Quakers." Apparently, the stereotype is that the Philadelphia Quakers think they're the only "correct" Quakers. We have some Catholics who think they're the only true Catholics, so I understood.

Just before it closed for earthquake reconstruction several years ago, the De Young Museum in San Francisco had an exhibit of the Peaceable Kingdom paintings of Quaker painter Edward Hicks (1780-1849). Hicks painted many, many versions of this picture, each one a little different from the others. The exhibit tied the paintings to the strife among the Quakers - when the factions among the Quakers were getting along with each other, Hicks painted the beasts in the Kingdom closer together and in harmony. When there was discord among Quakers, Hicks painted the animals far apart from each other.

Eventually, there was a permanent split in the Society of Friends, although the various branches are still connected to each other in many ways. One branch, Evangelical Friends International branch Richard Nixon belonged to, is more-or-less like most evangelical Christian denominations, meeting in churches, singing hymns, and listening to sermons. Nixon attended Quaker Whittier College. The college is located in the City of Whittier, California, which at one time was a largely Quaker community.

The better-known Quakers are the ones who gather in "meetings," sitting in silence until somebody is inspired to speak. They sing a lot - but not during services [the Rise Up Singing songbook has Quaker roots - for better or for worse]. These Quakers are generally pacifists - don't know about the Nixon Quakers and pacifism. I know a lot of folkies who are Quakers. I hope some will drop in and give an inside perspective (and correct some of my limited outside perspective). I've had a fair amount of contact with Quakers and have sung in Quaker facilities quite often, but I'm never attended Quaker religious services. I've been very impressed by what I've seen of the Quakers, especially by their concern for social justice.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:25 PM

FWIW, there's a quite delightful "group" on Facebook called the Association of Bad Quakers. Non-Quakers are welcome; all that's required is a sense of humor about one's beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

From a Google search tha sent to somewhere in Wikipedia:

Medical experiments

Draftees in Civilian Public Service became medical and scientific research test subjects in human medical experiments under the direction of the Office of Scientific Research and Development and the Surgeon General at medical institutions such as Harvard Medical School, Yale and Stanford Universities, and Massachusetts General Hospital. These experiments involved a range of research topics, sometimes endangering the health of the COs.[38][39]
Conscientious objector Harry Lantz distributes rat poison for typhus control in Gulfport, Mississippi.

Hepatitis: During the 1940s the cause, method of communication and treatment of infectious hepatitis was not well understood. Experimentation began with COs working at psychiatric hospitals and was expanded to a major research project with 30 to 60 test subjects at the University of Pennsylvania and Yale University. The men were inoculated with infected blood plasma, swallowed nose and throat washings and the human body wastes of infected patients, and drank contaminated water.[40]

As a young surgeon, C. Everett Koop was part of the research team at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. He relates his experience with CPS test subjects:
"         And the first time I was introduced to this whole program when I as a young surgeon, was asked to do serial biopsies on their livers to see what the effect of the virus was in the production of the changes in the liver. And in that way, I got to know that a lot of these young men had no idea that the risk they were taking also included death. And some of those youngsters did die and it was a very difficult thing for me to be part of, because you know, you're powerless, when you're part of the big team.

It couldn't happen today. Internal Review Boards would not permit the use of a live virus in human subjects unless they really understood what was going to happen to them. And I doubt that even if they knew what the risk was, that an Internal Review Board in any academic institution would consent to that kind of experimental work.
        "

—C. Everett Koop[41]

The hepatitis research was instrumental in determining a virus is responsible for the disease and that it is transmitted through human filth, serum and drinking water.[40]

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 12:48 PM

"C. Everett Koop"

He was my specialist when I was little! Did he experiment on people?!

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 12:34 PM

No connection??!! Y'all can't fool me! There is one on the box!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 11:17 AM

The quakes, as we called them, in the Phila area never talked about god, only about the Inner Light. I've been to a couple of meetings here in Central VA for various celebratory reasons of life or death but they always talked about god, never about the Inner Light. I like the Inner Light better.
But I don't call myself Quaker, and Dad, who did so self-identify, was an atheist albeit a conscientious objector in WWII. He got experimented on by, among others, look Jane, C. Everett Koop. Guess what? They didn't know how to cure the frostbite and hepatitis they gave him...

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:30 AM

yes, I am one too, but dont attend very often.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:53 AM

Although I haven't been to a meeting (don't have one near) for years I consider myself "non-attending" rather than "lapsed" and wish I lived up to the high standards I know Friends should aspire to.

Rts

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:16 PM

They make great oats, too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:10 PM

Ya want proudly avid Quaker whack-job schooling?

Haverford College.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:49 PM

Also the Reckitt family here in Hull were Quakers (Reckitt and Colman, now Reckitt Benckiser).

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM

By co-incidence I was talking to a mate today about Fry's Five Boys Chocolate bars....anybody remember them?

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:46 PM

Thanks Liz....always wondered about that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: CapriUni
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:38 PM

LTS -- Also, Chocolate tends to make people cheerful. And George Fox did ask us to "walk cheerfully over the Earth."

Oh, and more on the Friends and commerce: There is no historical connection between Quaker Oats and actual Quakers, Jack the Sailor. But because the Quakers were associated with ethical commerce, and quality products, sticking the word "Quaker" on the label inspired comsumer confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:49 PM

Many of the original food 'giants' such as Cadbury's, Fry's etc, were started by Quakers because in English law, they were forbidden to seek employment in the worlds of finance, medicine, law or church. Not a lot else left but commerce, so they went for it in a big way.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Why the link to chocolate?
Fry's Rowentree's Cadbury's.....all started by quakers...I think

Subject: RE: BS: The Quakers
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:10 PM

BBC link to the Quaker beliefs and history


Famous Quakers (cripes, Richard Nixon's on that list!)