scots dialect/phrases

Subject: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:03 PM

I'm looking for the correct pronunciation for these phrases:

gowan (annie laurie) gow an?

braid he's roar'd (Auld Lang Syne) -- the rest is more obvious


thocht (taucht or thaucht)
rins ower the heugh
A' the lave are sleepin'

(ye waukin'O)

luve (? luv or loove)

fause (in general is the shift form "l" an "oo" or something else?)

wa's, fa's, shaws,

flowers, pours, showers -- all rhyme?

(Birks of Aberfeldie)

and while we're o n that, does the "m" usually shift to "ae"?
(from , frae)

die, cry -- like English, or dee and cree?

bryde, riving her hair (bride or breed? reiving or reeving?)

maun (mahwn or mooon?)

I'm working on a Scottish set with somebody and he wants to do it with the accent; as a storyteller I know how tricky it is to get this right, without making it into a parody, but I'm willing to give it a go.

While I'm at it, hew and I are having a difference of opinion on the tune for Mairi's wedding;

in the key of A, he thinks the chorus starts on the low E and ends back on that note, with the verses going from the high E to the low.

I think it is the other way around; the chorus starting on the high note.

Any definitive answers on this?

TIA, MAG

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: BobKnight
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:45 PM

Gowan - a daisy, same as cow, with "an" added.
Braid - same as raid, but with added "b."
Thocht - ch is soft like loch. A velar fricative if I remember correctly.
Heugh - gh is soft like loch. So, it's Hugh with a soft ch sound.
Fause - false ommiting the "L"
Wa's - just wall leaving out the "L." Watch the vowel - English people are inclined to make the "a" sound like an "o." More like "a" for apple.
Fa's - pronounced like wa's, but could mean falls, or in Aberdeen/shire "who is."
Shaws - could be a couple of things - a place, or the stalks of the potato plant.
Flowers, etc - pronounced floors, they all rhyme with floors.
Birks - birch trees
Die - dee
Cry - cry, but the old Scots word is "greet."
Riving - usually drop the "g." again a couple of things - pulling, tugging, or it could mean gnawing, or "worrying" at something.
Maun - depends, accents vary from place to place. Lowlanders would say "mawn." but in Aberdeen/shire we would say "mun."

The trick with Scots is not to RRRROll the r's. It's the vowel sounds. Scots use a lot more vowel sounds than the English, and less diphthongs = sliding vowels.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM

Initial th in Scots is pronounced as in standard English.

Ower can be pronounced as one or two syllables, with the ow as in cow.

A' see wa'

luv

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 08:15 PM

Your mate has the right way for Mairi's Wedding - so do these people:-

Rankin Family perform Mairi's Wedding

Ross

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 Feb 10 - 08:25 PM

In Auld Lang Syne, it's "the seas atween us braid ha'e (pron. hay) roared", not "he's roared", meaning "the broad seas between us have roared".
And I understand that there are regional differences in pronunciation: e.g Awa' gets pronounced Awaw in the some areas and Awah in others.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:57 AM

OK folks; thanks -- this is a huge help.

They keep comin' up:

Can I assume "out cam his mother" would be

"oot cam his mither"?

(Bonnie George Campbell)

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: BobKnight
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM

Aye - that soons mair Scots tae me.!!

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:00 AM

And when Bob says that "flowers" and "showers", etc are pronounced "floors", he's right.

Except he doesn't means the things you walk on (I don't think he does).

It's the same pronunciation as "flew" or "flue", but with a trailing "r".

Sometimes it can have two syllables: Floo-euhr
or Floo-ur or whatever version of an unstressed central vowel you prefer.

Not sure any of that helps.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 07:56 AM

Then there's the Glaswegian version of the Duke of Edinburgh:-

"Chooky Embra"

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 10:19 AM

No jist Glesgae. He wis Chookie Embra i Embro tae.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: BobKnight
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM

Floors isn't pronounced "flores" by the way, it "fl-oo-rs," rhyming with the virus flu.
Should also make clear, "Riving, or rivin," is pronounced "rye-vin."

However, floors, the thing you walk on is also pronounced "fl-oo-rs," or "fleer," in Aberdeen/shire, and perhaps elsewhere in Scotland too.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM

We pronounced it flair down south, as in "he had a flair for layin lino".

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: BobKnight
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:22 AM

Which goes to show the difficulty of trying to pin down a "Scottish," accent Dave. There are regional variations, just like in England, or any other country for that matter.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 11:24 AM

We're tryin fer some flavour here; we don't want to try to replicate the perfect dialect -- -- tho t'would be grand --

great help; I'll keep sending' 'em if ye keep helpin' --

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Gutcher
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 12:20 PM

A shaw is a wid, in the airt whaur aa wis brocht up.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:29 PM

Ah wis dragged up.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 23 Feb 10 - 03:44 PM

"we don't want to try to replicate the perfect dialect "

like e.g. Hugh MacDiarmid - for which he was loved and hated

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Tradsinger
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 02:39 PM

Awa 'n' bile yer heed.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 09:52 PM

I'm afraid to ask (but will): who is/was Hugh M.?

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Effsee
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:11 PM

MAG, just google it!

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: masato sakurai
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:48 PM

These books will be helpful:

Grant, The Pronunciation of English in Scotland (1913)

Grant & Dixon, Manual of Modern Scots (1921)

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: masato sakurai
Date: 24 Feb 10 - 11:56 PM

MAG, listen to Hugh MacDiarmid reading his poems, including "A Drunk Man Looks at the Thistle."

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 04:11 AM

MacDiarmid's ok for finding out how he intended the words to sound, but he's not the best reader of poetry by a long shot. If you can find it, Tom Fleming recorded "The Drunk Man Looks at a Thistle".

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 05:26 AM

Iain Cuhbertson recorded some of MacDiarmid's poetry on a Waverley LP in 1962 and I recorded MacDiarmid in Glasgow in 1966, (The Legend and the Man) reading some of his own plus some of Robert Burns. He was not an actor but his delivery of 'Wha's that at my Bower Door', with a chuckle at the end, was so honest.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 25 Feb 10 - 02:09 PM

Try this dictionary here.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM

y'all are great.

another problem


Birls of Aberfelldie:

the book we found it in has 4 measures for the verses, and 3 for the chorus.

vverse and chorus all have 4 lines; what the f is this and can anyone explsin it?

thanks again,

me

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:02 PM

Not sure what you mean there MAG!
Guess you're talking about the Birks (with a K - meaning birch trees) O' Aberfeldy (a very beautiful place in Perthshire).
The version I have has 8 bars for both verse and chorus.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:57 AM

Thanks, TB == That is the only thing that makes sense -- the book we have has to be just plain wrong. My singing psrtner wanst to just fudge it but I can't do that.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:18 PM

Try this MAG, and enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUq6F0RnCCw&feature=PlayList&p=029F658B1307B99E&index=0&playnext=1

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:00 AM

just great, Tattie Bogle!

no relation to Eric Bogle??

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: BobKnight
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 03:53 PM

A "Tattie Bogle," is a scarecrow, but in this case, a lovely lady from Edinburgh. :)

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:15 PM

Flowers, etc - pronounced floors, they all rhyme with floors.

The old trap of trying to define a pronunciation in a dialect or accent by giving a comparison word that can be pronounced several ways, according to what dialect or accent is being used.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:05 PM

Not related to Eric Bogle, sadly, one of my folk heroes, butI did get my picture taken with him when he came to play a concert for us.
Thank you for the kind remark BobKnight, a man wi' a lovely vpice!

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 12:14 AM

Tattie, you said, "the seas atween us braid ha'e (pron. hay) roared", not "he's roared", meaning "the broad seas between us have roared".

If braid = broad, is there a reason for the different placement of it in the two versions? Just wondering. I love learning more of this. When I was growing up in the Rocky Mtn. West, I often did my best imitation of a Scots accent when at play. My dad grew up with his Nova Scotian grandparents around, so had their accent down pat.

MAG, great thread!!

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 12:26 AM

In looking for a rendition of the thistle poem, I found THIS on youtube. A man named Terry Kilshaw reciting A Drunk Man Chunders (Over a Thistle.) He does it in what he calls "Scottish Lallans Vernacular." I also saw he said the "true Lallans" died out with his grandmother. Seems a quite nice gentleman.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 12:34 AM

I'm from Pittsburgh, where we redd up our houses, an inquisitive person is a neb, and the sidewalks are no longer slippy, since the snow melted.
Scots came here to take Fort Duquesne from the French under General Forbes in the French and Indian war, and, as you can see, they never left.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:31 AM

"I also saw he said the "true Lallans" died out with his grandmother."

Lallans is simply an alternative name for "Scots" which is the traditional language of the Lallans or Lowlands. The demise of Scots has been talked about for several centuries now but it is still alive and kicking in every day life. The more conservative dialects can still be found over much of Scotland in the likes of the farms and factories in the Borders or the fishing ports of the North-East etc.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:29 AM

Ah think "Chookie Embra" wis first penned by the cartoonist and folkie Malkie Mc Cormick, a protege of the great Bud Neill.

Bud wis an expert oan ra Gleska patter and wan o' the funniest an' maist aff the wa' guys I ever encountered.

You can read about Bud and view his work Bud Neill

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:57 AM

One of the verses from Morris Blythman's 'Lucky Wee Prince Chairlie' is:

Wee chookie burdie, tol,lol,lol,lol
Laid a wee egg on the windae sol,o
Duke chookie burdie was playin at polo
Lucky wee Pronce Chairlie

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:59 AM

Sorry! That should have been 'Lucky Wee Prince Chairlie' but maybe it was a Freudian slip!

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:42 AM

back w/ another question on Scots:

Archie Fisher pronounces his internal (inside words) "Rs" with a distinct lack-of-palate contact -- ie pronouncedR sound -- is this typical Scots or just lowland or something --(he does sing about the sea and the borderlands a lot)

lots of Archie fans out there (besides mwho knows?

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:14 PM

Archie was born in Glasgow, has spent the last 50 years in Edinburgh, and has a generic middle-class Central Belt Scots accent.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: MAG
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 03:48 PM

thank you, Jack.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Reiver 2
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:13 PM

I know there's no such thing as "a Scottish dialect" and that there are several [or perhaps 'many' would be more accurate]. Growing up in the U.S. midwest, my first introduction to any form of Scots dialect was listening to Harry Lauder. I'd be interested in comments from 'catters on Lauder's dialect. Was it representative of a particular district of Scotland [if so, what district], or was it a distinct Harry Lauder dialect? Just curious.

Reiver 2

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:17 PM

There's no Scots dialect - there are, as with any language, quite a few dialects of Scots. (If you want, there's an idiolect for every Scots speaker)

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:20 PM

Lauder, like many other stage Scots, spoke in a dialect which was both anglicised to make it comprehensible to English audiences, and Scotticised to fit the persona.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:20 PM

"A Dish of Orts" was a thing I had never heard of,
until I was studying the writings of George MacDonald (19th century).
MacDonald published many titles during his long life.
He gave the title "A Dish of Orts"
to a collection of his own essays in standard English.

For the title alone, I had to look up whatever I could find
about Scots to see what it meant.

The Online Scots Dictionary:

"ort":   verb
to reject, throw away, refuse, to deal wastefully with food,
as by picking out the best parts and casting aside the rest, or by crumbling it,
to pick out what is to be rejected, to pick and choose,
to distribute wastefully and extravagantly.

"Orts": noun, plural
What is useless and has been cast aside,
leavings, leftovers.   


A book labelled "A Dish of Orts," therefore,
is a collection of odds and ends of writing,
none of which is sufficient for an entire book in itself.
MacDonald exploits the English / Scots combination here
that served him well in his literary career:

he would not, as a mature adult,
return to Scotland permanently,
where he had been born and raised;
but he would proudly identify himself as a Scot born and bred
who chose to be a satellite in London's orbit.

If you're curious:
A Dish of Orts

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:32 PM

...from my limited experience, seems similar to Geordie dialect, yes?

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:46 PM

"Ort" is first recorded in Wiltshire near the beginning of the 14th century and has long been used in other parts of Britain.

The first time I heard it was in college in the U.S. The context was that Henry VIII was said to have throw the orts of his meals over his shoulder when he was done.

True or not, the word used was "orts."

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 05:19 PM

Henry VIII?   News to me!

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 07:17 PM

Scots and English of course share much of their vocab. Take away the spelling/pronounciation differences and I would think the majority of Scots vocab is shared with English or had been shared with English. So just because something is in a Scots dictionary it doesn't mean it is exclusively Scots.

Subject: RE: scots dialect/phrases
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 07:24 PM

There is a German novel by Christa Wolf titled Kein Ort, Nirgends which literally means "No Place, Nowhere" (the English translator called it "No Place On Earth").

From which I guess that German "Ort" is cognate with Scots "airt".