BS: £800 fine for low school attendance

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:49 AM

I sent to the BBC about Joan and folkiedave,

I have absolutely no idea what on earth you are talking about. I have never contacted the BBC about you.

You mistook someone else's posts for mine and not for the first time.

I do not believe (as the Mel from the BBC has said on the current Reg Meuross thread), that the person who started that thread is you.

I am aware that you have been told to get help before. I suspect you took no notice of that advice then, anymore than you will now.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:41 AM

But as an addendum to mandotims post.
Please Lizzie. Get some help.
You might not like us, but, actually, we are all human beings, and we all care.
We only get angry when you get angry. (It's called human nature).
You have opinions...Fair enough.
So do I...
There is a lot in what you say that is to be applauded.
But, please. Stop hitting us all with the "Righteous Mallet."
We all get angry about all sorts of subjects. Picking fights with people, (who probably agree with you) is not going to help? Is it??
So, can you please stop this now?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:28 AM

Time to put this to bed.
It's become yet another Lizzie tirade.
To all the sensible posters here, I bid you farewell.
And, as for Lizzie......She'll be back.
That's not a threat..It's a reality.
Such a shame.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:08 AM

Whoops - a missing end of italics after the first line - anyone there to mend it?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:07 AM

And yes, I know, that according to folks in here, NONE of this is happening and it is ALL a figment of my imagination!

Every single person who is 'against you' on this thread has said that the education system is not perfect. There are indeed some things that are a figmnet of your imagination. That the education system has room fro improvement is not one of them. Let me put my points in the easiest of ways so maybe you will take notice.

The education system is not perfect

It does, in the main, work for the majority of people

Home education works for some people

The majority teachers are good

The majority young people are good

You slagging off people and children that go through mainstream education, the vast majority in the UK, is what gets up my nose.

There - Those are verifyable facts. You can deny them all you like. You can cite your personal experience and anecdotes as much as you like. But those are still the facts.

Seemples

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: mandotim
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:59 AM

Lizzie; I'm worried about you. Your last post descended into what appeared to present as genuine paranoia, which bore little or no resemblance to the realities of the discussion on this board. If you are not doing so already, you should seek some help, urgently. This really isn't meant as an attack on you in any way whatsoever; I'm genuinely concerned about your wellbeing. Your seeming compulsion to fight virtually everyone you encounter online and the apparent anger, frustration and grief it causes you cannot be good for you. Irrespective of your outstanding arguments and grievances against those you perceive to be persecuting you, I urge you to take an objective look at the situation. Perhaps review your posts on this thread; is there anything you now regret saying? If not, you're in real trouble. An absence of self-doubt is psychologically very dangerous territory.
Posted in peace, and in a spirit of genuine concern
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:52 AM

Oh, I thought this was a thread about education. Turns out it was all about Lizzie Cornish all along. Silly me.

Lizzie, you really ought to get some sort of help. Your level of utter self-obsession is bizarre to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:44 AM

'Miss B' is what could actually happen if 'Hate Registers' ARE brought in, and if New Labour remain in power, they will be, I've no doubts about that at all. My daughter was taught by such a teacher, although he was a man. Many parents complained about him, *nothing* was done. He was the same man who protected his friend, the one some in here regard as a 'voyeur' but whom I regard, despite what the judge said, as a 'paedophile'. Any man who rigs up cameras to take photos of young girls in his care deserves no respect from anyone.

Moving on to your other comments, Chris.

I have no voice on the BBC anymore, because a small group of people, who are also in this thread, saw to it that by their constant complaints about me, the BBC would eventually cave in and remove me.
As such, I EXPECT the BBC to ENSURE that NO mention of my name is now on that board. The person who started the thread on Reg Meuross was NOT me.

Tell me, Chris, do you EVER look at things from the perspective of others? Have you ever put yourself in my place? Do you know how it feels to have vindictive people 'watching out' for you? You may think it's all a hoot. I don't. I find it deeply offensive that some people go out of their way to ensure that I am no longer on that board...and have gone out of their way on this board also to try and get my freedom of speech removed.

Yet, they feel they have the right to use *their* freedom of speech to verbally abuse and insult me, put down outright lies about me.

Always look at things from a different perspective.

And the reason I get cross with you, is you have been a teacher for too long, perhaps? You were constantly talking to me on the BBC as if I was a child. You expected me to do what you said, along with so many others. I am my own person, I write in my own way, a way that is entirely natural to my brain. I have never commented on your writing, what you write about etc...and I am so very tired of the drip, drip, drip from the Hate Register Tap that follows me round..

Mel had, and has, NO right to leave those posts on, because they instantly make others think that's me. It is not. She should have apologised to me, when I went on there the other day to ask her to stop the witch hunt. She did no such thing whatsoever. That was way out of order, but no less than I expect from Mel and from the entire Smooth Ops team who have behaved atrociously throughout this whole affair. I haven't been on that board for around a year...and when I did go on there I always used to make it obvious that it was me, because I have nothing to hide. Even Jim Moray has been roped into spying out for me...and as, in the past, I've given Jim many compliments about his music, along with his sister, Jackie Oates, I found his comments offensive.

I've learnt the hard way that there are many in the folk world who are only interested in themselves and making their careers stronger and stronger and that is all that matters to them at the end of the day. Integrity seems to be missing in some folks, but there you go.


Be very afraid of 'Miss B'..because soon, she may well be coming to work in a school near you...bringing her own Hate Register with her...
Oh, and of course, the story also drew a parellel with what was happening earlier in this thread, where some people were saying that they KNOW far better than I do what sort of person I am, why I write as I do, what I REALLY mean by my words...It was exactly what happened to little 'Jimmy James'.

The 'Miss B's' , both male and female, have followed me around for years with their own Agenda Registers. I am truly sick of them.


Of course, you did NOT see the post I sent to the BBC about Joan and folkiedave, and their use of certain terminology to let me know, secretly, that they had found out something else about my personal life. Mel, by that time, had already rumbled it was me, not hard, as I used my name..I regard these two people as obsessive stalkers of me. They both worry me deeply, because it seems, by their last behaviour pattern that they have joined forces, passed the word around to others and revel in feeling that they have made me feel uncomfortable. Many people in here support these people. It says far more about them, than it does about me. And I include Show of Hands in that 'support group' who apparently, according to Joan Crump, feel that *I* am the unpleasant one.

Well, Steve and Phil, I have news for you. I, unlike your new heroine, do NOT search out the internet for evidence I can use against someone to make them feel stalked. The people you now support, do. Also, I do not offer, on Facebook, to buy drinks for the first person to throw beer over someone I do not like, as Joan did about me. You have chosen to support these folks, be part of 'em.
I hope that gives you both much happiness.

Ho hum...Live, Learn and Move ON bloody fast, is, I guess the lesson I have learnt. But that's life, ain't it...one long, never-ending opportunity to learn, learn, learn. :0)

Oh...and what the heck made you think that *I* am the *only* person who loves the songs of Reg Meuross, Chris?????   WHY would you assume that had to be me? Reg has many, many people who love his music, and I'm just really pleased that others are starting to talk about him. I got cross not only because it was not me, but because that thread got instantly taken off course. It was about Reg and his music, NOT about me. And tell me, EVEN if it HAD been me, so What? WHY would that have bothered you, or anyone else???????

WHY do you all the Right to Write, yet I do not?

If you miss me being on the BBC, then perhaps you ought to let Mel know, rather than continue to try and hunt me down.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:07 PM

Lizzie, your Miss B is a horrible, nasty, hurtful parody of what you think teachers are like. Yes, we get it wrong sometimes but we teach because we care. I've never met a teacher like Miss B and I've taught for 30 years in 7 different schools, ranging from a grammar school to a college and now a comprehensive. Miss B may exist but I've never met her.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM

I've just noticed that I got a mention in one of Lizzie's rants. Lizzie, I wasn't the first one who said it was you on the BBC board. When I agreed with whoever it was I used a smiley to show that it was light-hearted. You don't seem to have much of a sense of humour, though. As it happens, I quite enjoy your visits to the BBC boards. I don't think nearly as badly as you as you do of me.

As a teacher in a 'bog-standard' comprehensive in an inner-city area, I've been reading this debate with interest. Obviously no-one is going to change their deeply entrenched opinions on this issue. Joan does seem to have an idea of what teaching is like these days.

I would like to add another issue. Over the past few years pupils in the school I teach at are beginning to threaten teachers and use violence towards them. I know of several dedicated, hard-working, gentle, kind teachers whose careers and mental health have been totally destroyed by this. Teachers are told not to touch pupils at all as pupils will go home and say that they've been assaulted by teachers. Their parents send them to school with instructions not to take any nonsense from the teachers.

I think everyone has a right to feel safe in the place that they work in. More and more teachers don't.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:10 PM

Ah, the rural idyll. Have you any idea of the reality behind "the Haywain"?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:09 PM

'Home Education is not a 'bloody' System in the first place, Emma.'

sigh - who said it was?

no just carry on regardless

"Their aim is to paint themselves as bold challengers to the current system and to claim that defenders of public education lack the vision or courage to endorse meaningful change."

exactly!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:03 PM

Home Education is not a 'bloody' System in the first place, Emma.

That is the WHOLE point!

It has not (yet) been taken over by 'Those who MUST be Obeyed', but they're working on it...

Soon, NO child will be able to live the life their parents, or the child themselves may want.

We will ALL have been taken over by the State, who will dictate how we must all live our lives!

There will be no Freedom in Education, no Freedom of Thought, or Freedom of Speech!

Ha!!! Some who deem themselves Socialists, in this thread have already made sure that I lost mine on the BBC board...and they're pretty determined to make sure that others lose theirs, as they seek to control, control, control....

READ that Freedom of Education magazine link there...and then know that the children who produced it, two sisters and their brother, now all fully grown up, were home educated by their mother and father, in France. The parents were sickened at what was happening in their local schools, sickened by much of the way British society was going, so...they moved to France. Their father built their house for them, the children helped. They each had their own 'garden' which they designed and maintained themselves. The young lad planted his own orchard. They spent their days reading masses of books, creating many things, working within their local community, being a help to that community...They are all self-sufficient, kind, suportive of each other...an incredibly close family.

Wendy now lives in London with her boyfriend. She has a lively and lovely mind, one that thrives on knowledge....

And you people want to stop anyone else from having that kind of 'education'....? It is an Education of Life! Millions of times better than anything they'd have been offered at their local school.

Wendy and her family also realise that many children, many people love schools, can see nothing wrong with them. They would never dream of interfering in the choice of those people to send their children to school...and yet...some of those 'school driven' people are trying to INSIST that we educate OUR children THEIR way!

PAH! That stinks!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM

I knew there was no point - ever had an olive branch shoved down your throat folks?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:50 PM

This is an article from 2004...Have things improved since?


Exam Stress in Teenagers

And from there:

"....But this is only the tip of the iceberg. Exams only serve to bring to a head feelings of depression, hopelessness and fear of failure that have become endemic amongst school age children, thanks in large part to the results-driven agenda that the Labour government insists upon.

Figures from the government's drug watchdog, MHRA, show that in 1995 46,000 anti-depressant prescriptions were given to teenagers between 16 and 18 in full-time education. By last year this had risen to 140,000. There has also been a rise of almost 50 percent in the prescription of so-called "happy drugs" such as Prozac and Seroxat to under 16s. This has risen from 76,000 in 1996 to 110,000. This figure could be higher because prescriptions from private doctors and those given to hospital patients are not included.

Whilst the figures point to a one in five prevalence of mental illness among under 18s, the Department of Health (DoH) has admitted that it has no idea how many children are actually taking psychiatric drugs. Nor does it collect statistics on exam-related suicides.

In the seven years that the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair has been in office, there has been an increased emphasis in education on attaining ever-more impossible targets. The expectations that schools will produce a year on year increase in test and exam results, which are then used to produce league tables, puts an enormous strain on social relations within schools and among the pupils themselves. The fear of failure and letting people down, whether it be yourself, your family, friends or the school, is widespread at a time when there has never been such a premium placed on achieving high grades in order to enter university.

The case of Tina Dzikl is not unusual, in that a growing number of bright youngsters are pressured to take exams earlier within the state school system. In the last few years there have been a number of teenage suicides where exam pressure has played a part.

Amy Burgess from West Mersea, Essex, jumped from the top of a multi-story car park the day she was due to take her GCSE's. An open verdict was recorded into her death.

Sixth former David Tebby from South Wales also killed himself by jumping from a multi-story car park because of anxiety about A-levels.

Tim Russell, 16, killed himself with his father's shotgun because he had failed his physics paper.

Shaun Begley, 16, hanged himself from a tree because he believed he would not pass his math GCSE.,,,,"



Watch the video on this page....listen to what the children themselves are saying!

The NHS advice on being your child's 'Study Buddy' (oh purleeze!)


And from *that* site...

British schoolchildren sit up to 70 exams and tests before they reach their GCSEs. There are ways to ease stress at exam time.


The children of this nation are over-tested, over examined, over worked, over stressed, and if the teachers themselves cannot see that, and are NOT prepared to stand up, en masse and REFUSE to keep doing this to them...then they do NOT deserve to be teachers.

Young people have a right to be young! Young and free!   They have a right to have holidays and summer evenings without bloody homework or examination revision, revision, revision!

When I took GCSEs I merely did a bit of swotting up, around 7/10 days before we took the test. I was not unusual in this and we had hardly any stress from our teachers, because there were no league tables, no OFSTED, no examiners examining examiners, or teachers teaching teachers...

The whole exam system is making many children ill, depressed and very angry. It is turning them OFF from learning, as had happened in the USA where the National Curriculum has been around for over 10 years longer than we've had it.

If I were a child today, I'd bunk off bloody school at every given opportunity and take to the woods with my friends, have picnics, barbecues, live my life the way I feit it should be lived, according to ME, NOT according to others.

And people wonder why our children are spilling out their souls on the pavements of our cites, falling over sideways, on their way to becoming alcholics, some already suffering major medical damage by their early 20s.

And yes, I know, that according to folks in here, NONE of this is happening and it is ALL a figment of my imagination!









Like hell it is...

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:44 PM

'something is terribly wrong and move on from there'

I think I have said that there is room for reform in the Educational system in the UK; I don't think I can speak for the US anymore than Gatto speaks for the UK.

However I have also supported the findings of the Badman report that there is also an overwhelming need for 'reform' in home education in the UK too - at the very least the necessity for registration and responsible monitoring.

'Well, if the whole system was changed, each side would be kind to the other'

That means the 'whole system' I presume ?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:24 PM

Well, if the whole system was changed, each side would be kind to the other...maybe?

It needs everyone, parents, children, teachers, politicians, to come together, realise something is terribly wrong and move on from there.

You need to have respect on *both* sides.   

If we put Kindness, Compassion and Empathy on the National Curriculum and got rid of all the stuff that is pretty darn useless, then maybe things may start to change....


"Education of the mind without education of the heart is no education at all" - Aristotle.

We have, as an 'Edukated Edukated Edukated Nation' seemingly forgotten about our children's hearts..

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: paula t
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 03:14 PM

"NO teacher has the right to make my children, or anyone else's feel bad about themselves. No other human being does. But I damn well expect teachers, above all others, to ONLY show kindness, support, inspiration and guidance to children. THAT is their job, that is what they are therefore...and ANY teacher who feels it is their 'right' to belittle, humiliate, embarrass, denigrate, shout, scream or treat badly any child, should not be in the profession."

Absolutely right, Lizzie, and the vast majority of teachers would heartily agree! It's a pity that teachers do not seem to have the same rights as the children we teach.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:19 PM

And pinging 299 would have been cheating

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:18 PM

300

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:13 PM

I got 200 - do you think I should claim 300 as well?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

"I strongly suspect that the vast majority of problems that children have at school are caused by parents."

In my experience that's substantially true, Richard. In the cases of the most damaged and neglected kids, the schools spend years trying to undo a lot of utterly piss-poor parenting. However, in the schools where the damaged and nearly feral kids are in the great majority, teachers are fighting a losing battle. And the heartbreaking thing is that they really do care, and are doing their best in the most demoralising situations.

Before we get a chorus of "Well well well well well well well well...." I am not suggesting that the tough schools nor the really damaged kids are in the majority. They do exist, and no one has ever denied this. The point is, the teachers who are trying to be part of the solution to these problems created by our society deserve our support, not our criticism and derision.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Mrs.Duck - PM
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

My daughter was school educated to the age of 15. She imploded during her GCSEs due to bullying, by pupils and teachers alike and because of the vast workload and constant testing that went on in her life.

Make up your mind! If she was home educated until 15 when did all this so called bullying take place??

Obviously a mental blip for which I apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:34 PM

'NO teacher has the right to make my children, or anyone else's feel bad about themselves. No other human being does'

so how about.......

"The products of schooling are, as I've said, irrelevant.
Well-schooled people are irrelevant.
They can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on the telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal but as human beings they are useless.
Useless to others and useless to themselves" ?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:26 PM

"NO teacher has the right to make my children, or anyone else's feel bad about themselves. No other human being does. But I damn well expect teachers, above all others, to ONLY show kindness, support, inspiration and guidance to children. THAT is their job, that is what they are therefore...and ANY teacher who feels it is their 'right' to belittle, humiliate, embarrass, denigrate, shout, scream or treat badly any child, should not be in the profession."
Bloody good job you didn't go to school in South Shields in the fifties and early sixites then - and they were the enlightened days!!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM

I strongly suspect that the vast majority of problems that children have at school are caused by parents.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:25 AM

It isn't just teachers who should not belittle, humiliate, embarrass, denigrate, shout, scream or treat badly.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:14 AM

A very bad experience indeed, Lizzie. Much like to ones I had when I decided it was time to change my daughters school. But it has not set me so much against teachers that I believe the bad ones to be in the majority, It did not make me believe for one moment that all the other children coming out the original school were drunken savages. And it certainly did noy give me the right to belittle every other parent who kept their children in that school.

Do you not think it is about time you stopped implying that everyone but you has made the wrong decision? We know that you made the right decision but the way you constantly try to justify it I wonder whether you have doubts? Why else keep harping on about how good an education your children got and how bad everyone elses is. Surely they are out of it now and it is time to let it go. Find a different hobby horse. Preferably one that does not involve rubbing people up the wrong way. You may be pleasantly surprised at how well people start to respond. Well, once they get over your excesses...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:57 AM

"Anyway I note from earlier posts - far from being home educated as you have constantly told us - your daughter spent all but one of her compulsory school years in school. I have to tell you that is not the normal definition of home education.

Thanks for that."

I've always stated that fact, folkiedave. You're slipping.

My son was home-educated from the age of 7. Do you have a problem with that too?

I have experienced BOTH sides of the coin...and I know which suits/suited my children best. This is due to being their mother and knowing both of them far better than any teacher will ever come to know them.

My daughter came OUT of school, INTO home education because she could no longer cope with the appalling pressure of examinations, of stressed out teachers, putting their stress on to the pupils...and because of bullying, from both pupils and some teachers. She also gave up her art for two years, because her art 'teacher' told her that her work was "crap"...the exact word she used.

The damage that stupid, ignorant woman did, remains, even to this day.

NO teacher has the right to make my children, or anyone else's feel bad about themselves. No other human being does. But I damn well expect teachers, above all others, to ONLY show kindness, support, inspiration and guidance to children. THAT is their job, that is what they are therefore...and ANY teacher who feels it is their 'right' to belittle, humiliate, embarrass, denigrate, shout, scream or treat badly any child, should not be in the profession.

It is one thing to be firm. It is quite another to see yourself as being in a position of power, to look down and talk down to young people and children, merely because you have 'teacher' branded on your forehead.

Actually, I think that every single term, teachers should be tested, by their pupils. They should see what their children think of them, and why.

They may be quite surprised...for better or for worse.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:56 AM

That is VERY funny Davetnova:-D

I am a bit worried that some may take it seriously though...

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Davetnova
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:35 AM

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/intelligence%11boosting-drugs-make-children-question-point-of-exams-201003102547/

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:25 AM

Another advantage of a school system is that it reduces the risk of children being indoctrinated by insane parents.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:12 AM

Oh and another advantage of schooling? Your child gets to mix with other kids. In these days when it's not so easy for them to play in the street this is very important. I've known a couple of home educators who've realised this lack and have made sure their children have mixed with others by taking them to play groups etc but I don't think it will beat the experience of learning together and hearing other children's views on a subject. In addition to controlling your child's education you now have to control their social life (or is it have control of their social life?).

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:08 AM

The two sons of a friend of mine went to a Steiner school. (A very liberal take on how children should be treated)
I went along to a couple of Open days, Christmas fairs etc. All very nice. They had an organic veggie farm, a few animals hanging about. (Nowt wrong with that, obviously). Sadly, idyllic though it looked. The kids, bye and large, were taking the piss, and running amok.
I'm sorry, Lifelong socialist I may be, but children need boundaries, set, both by parents and teachers.
Wifty wafty Hello Flowers, hello trees attitudes do not work.
The very fact that children have to be at school at a certain time, wearing the correct uniform etc. is a good thing!.
Of course I'm not advocating regular beatings. (although I went through that regime too). but "loving" dicipline for children has to be the way forward in terms of parenting.
We, as a family, try to share a communal meal around the table at least 3 or 4 times a week.
Last Sunday, the youngest (12) was out playing with his mates. I was doing a roast dinner. He wanted to stay out. No, I told him. this is family time. you will be back at 5, or your dinner is going in the bin. Harsh? Maybe?....but, he turned up at 5 to 5!!!
Enough already.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Derecq
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:49 AM

I've spent the last 30 minutes looking at the kids my daughter went to school with, on Facebook photos..They're all interchangeable. Everyone's partying till they drop, drinking till they drop...
=====================================================================
Actually a lot of Facebook pictures are like that. It's the sort of pictures people of that age take. They don't take pictures of themselves doing their homework sitting quietly at home or studying, or helping old ladies to put up bath handles.

People might ask WHY you were looking at photographs of people your daughter went to school with for 30 minutes..........Looking to see if they posted pictures of themselves drinking and partying by any chance? Personally I think a responsible adult would tell them to make sure their pictures can't be seen by every Tom, Dick and Harriet.

Anyway I note from earlier posts - far from being home educated as you have constantly told us - your daughter spent all but one of her compulsory school years in school. I have to tell you that is not the normal definition of home education.

Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:30 AM

"Their aim is to paint themselves as bold challengers to the current system and to claim that defenders of public education lack the vision or courage to endorse meaningful change."

I cannot, for the life of me, think who that sounds like. I do not blame anyone for taking that attitude though. It is the easy one to take. People disagree with your ideas therefore they must be the product of a represive system, following the herd, boring or just plain stupid. It is much easier to believe that than to accept that your ideas may not be as good as you thought.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:36 AM

Home tutoring is just another name for good parenting.
My schooling back in 50s'60's and early 70's, was by and large great. (apart from one sadistic maths teacher...Steel ruler edge on across the knuckles anyone?!).
Couple that with wonderful parents, who were strict, but fair, I got a proper education.
But without the school part, I would never have learnt how to play French Horn, Tympani (Played in the London Schools Symphony Orchestra for one season). I would never have found out what goes on behind the scenes in a theatrical production. And, as I was pretty much a failure academically, (6 O levels No A levels), I still managed to impress the BBC enough to get a decent job/career. I was later told that it was the activities I had been engaged in at school was the factor that swayed it in my favour.
And Home parenting alone can open up all these possibly life changing opportunities? I dont think so.
I wasn't particulary sporty, but for those that enjoyed that, the facilities were available.
Don't blame the teachers Lizzie. They are making the best of what they've got.
But, also, how can you even begin to think that H.E. will solve all the problems?
For instance, If one of your children wanted to learn to play the piano? Do you have a piano? Do you play the piano? Think not.
You would have to resort to private tuition. Most schools have a music dept (just). For free!
But enough. I realise that I'm just wasting time, and await the inevitable backlash with bemused resignation.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:17 AM

Eanjay advises people who are school educated not to read much of this thread if they are school educated and have any feelings

Gatto describes those of us who have been through state education -

"The products of schooling are, as I've said, irrelevant.
Well-schooled people are irrelevant.
They can sell film and razor blades, push paper and talk on the telephones, or sit mindlessly before a flickering computer terminal but as human beings they are useless.
Useless to others and useless to themselves"

well thank you!

Dan Meyer, a teacher with the San Lorenzo Valley Unified School District, was honoured with a 2008 Cable's Leaders in Learning Award

He expresses a similar reaction to eanjay

'Try not to contract an acute case of self-loathing reading John Taylor Gatto's Why Schools Don't Educate, a speech in which we are all agents of a system which subjugates students emotionally, physically, and intellectually.'


Gatto's theories and political ideology are firmly based in American 'libertarianism'

This is supported by fellow libertarian ideologues like Neal Boortz, whose radio show is popular with conservative republicans and who routinely criticizes the homeless, public schools (which he calls 'government schools'), liberals, opponents of the Iraq war, teachers and welfare recipients …..
and has stated

"sending a child to a government school is tantamount to child abuse"

After reading Joe's informative post it's obvious that, in America, like the UK, there is room for education reform

The difference appears to be that in America the mantle of school reform has been appropriated by those from the libertarian brigade who oppose the whole idea of public schooling.

"Their aim is to paint themselves as bold challengers to the current system and to claim that defenders of public education lack the vision or courage to endorse meaningful change."

- Alfie Kohn an American author and teacher/lecturer who is actually a proponent of a constructivist account of learning and opposed to standardized tests etc

Kohn is also unimpressed by Gatto

" In a recent Harper's magazine essay entitled "Against School," he (Gatto) asserts that the goal of "mandatory public education in this country" is "a population deliberately dumbed down," with children turned "into servants."

In support of this sweeping charge, Gatto names some important men who managed to become well-educated without setting foot in a classroom.
(However, he fails to name any defenders of public education who have ever claimed that it's impossible for people to learn outside of school or to prosper without a degree.)

He also cites a few "school as factory" comments from long-dead policymakers, and observes that many of our educational practices originated in Prussia.
Here he's right. Our school system is indeed rooted in efforts to control. But the same indictment could be leveled, with equal justification, at other institutions. The history of newspapers, for example, and the intent of many powerful people associated with them, has much to do with manufacturing consent, marginalizing dissent, and distracting readers. But is that an argument for no newspapers or better newspapers?

Ideally, public schools can enrich lives, nourish curiosity, introduce students to new ways of formulating questions and finding answers.

Their existence also has the power to strengthen a democratic society, in part by extending those benefits to vast numbers of people who didn't fare nearly as well before the great experiment of free public education began"

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:04 AM

"It's simply not necessary for children to do homework."

No, it's not but it reinforces classroom work and encourages children to read beyond the work done at school. Thinking back, there's a lot I know that I didn't learn at school but did learn as a result of school. My parents were intelligent and hard-working but they wouldn't have had the knowledge or backgound to be able to stretch my my mind in the way my teachers could.

Are you sure that this country is any more dumbed down that it ever was or do you just read about it more? We have a cult of celebrity at the moment and stupid people are all over the media but I don't think that means there are fewer knowledgable people, just that we don't hear so much about them. Another thing to bear in mind is that what you were taught in school is no longer so relevant - do we need to know about the classics and fine art to get on in the world? No, we don't. It's nice to know but not necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:46 PM

I think this thread should have a warning:

Do not open this thread if you are a teacher, a school educated child or the parent of a school educated child UNLESS you have absolutely no feelings at all.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:43 PM

Home Educated children may actually be seen as different by some, but unfortunately it isn't always in a very positive way.

Lizzie, you must realise that what has worked for your children won't necessarily work for every child. You must realise that the descriptions you give of school educated children are sweeping generalisations which for most children are incorrect and unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:08 PM

How about doing the arithmetic of success and failure?

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:39 PM

So, no-one's answered me yet...

Phew, Lizzie! Quite rightly so I expect. My children are now all grown up so I can be objective about kids in and just out of school. Looking at what you have just said though, if I had kids at school or just out, I would absolutely furious and incapable of answering with any modicum of retraint.

You say - IF schools are doing this wonderful job, why is the country so dumbed down? Why are employers always complaining that kids can't do this, can't do that..? Why are so many kids at University who er...aren't really bright enough to be there? Why has a degree now become almost meaningless, as in 'everybody's got one of those'?

What other way do we have of reading this apart from young people currently coming out of education, including higher education are not particularly bright. Please note that you have not qualified that with 'some' children or 'in my opinion'. You have just alienated evry single parent in the UK who sends their children to school. Can you not see that? Can you not see why people shout at you? Anyhow, pressing on...

Home Educated children are actually seen as different, in a very positive way, because they're outside The System and more often than not, think for themselves, think differently, don't run with the pack mentality.

Home educated children are better than school educated ones. Including yours I suppose. School educated ones cannot think for themselves and just 'run with the pack'. Not only have you put in the knife. You are now twisting it.

Just another way of looking at things.......

I've spent the last 30 minutes looking at the kids my daughter went to school with, on Facebook photos..They're all interchangeable. Everyone's partying till they drop, drinking till they drop...

I feel I've suddenly started living inside HELLO magazine! It was spooky and depressing, because I remember those children when they were little..and they were very different back then..but then, that was before they were sent inside The System for near on 13 years.....

..,..then, when they came out...............

"There's a pink one, and a blue one and a green one and a yellow one....and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same..."

The kids your daughter went to school with are off the rails. Note - Not some kids - just 'the kids'. They are 'all interchangeable'. They are all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same. It reads like every single kid out of the standard schooling system is to be tarred by your brush. Not only have you twisted the knife. You are now chopping up the livers.

And don't tell me that I am reading the wrong message from your words. It is plain for all to see. Children educated in schools = bad. Children educated at home = good. Never mind that you have previously said schools are good for some kids. This is NOT how this latest tirade reads.

It has been mentioned before that your posts do lean towards the outrageous. This one absolutley takes the biscuit but I will say one thing. If what you wanted was to keep me away from your postings you are well on the way. I am now not just worried, but but positively afraid. And not in a good way.

If you cannot see how offensive your post is toward a HUGE number of decent parents with decent kids in state education then I am afraid there is absolutely no hope of reasoning with you.


Dave

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:05 PM

And I need to tell you this, children...

I know that you little beggars love to go to the internet to copy and paste your homework...but I'm one step ahead of you here. So, if ANY of you DARE to bring me in this, next Thursday.....

This book focuses on mechanisms of familiar schooling that cripple imagination, discourage critical thinking, and create a false view of learning as a by-product of rote-memorisation drills. Gatto's earlier book, "Dumbing Us Down", put that now-famous expression of the title into common use worldwide. This book promises to add another chilling metaphor to the brief against schooling. Here is a demonstration that the harm school inflicts is quite rational and deliberate, following high-level political theories constructed by Plato, Calvin, Spinoza, Fichte, Darwin, Wundt, and others, which contend the term 'education' is meaningless because humanity is strictly limited by necessities of biology, psychology, and theology. The real function of pedagogy is to render the common population manageable. Realising that goal demands that the young be conditioned to rely upon experts, remain divided from natural alliances, and accept disconnections from the experiences that create self-reliance and independence. Escaping this trap requires a different way of growing up, one Gatto calls 'open source learning'. In chapters such as 'A Letter to Kristina, my Granddaughter'; 'Fat Stanley'; and, 'Walkabout: London', this different reality is illustrated.


....you'll get a Dastardly Double Detention for C&P-ing from here:

Weapons of Mass Instruction - Amazon uk

;0)

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:55 PM

This is your Homework for tonight, children.

I want a 3,000 word essay on it by next Thursday afternoon. This will give you all time to order it, read it and write about it, in the way that I demand.

If you do NOT do your Homework, then I will give you detention, because you all have to learn that what *I* say is law. There are no excuses for disobedience, because you have to understand, that you are here only to obey...*me*...

So come along, stop talking in the back there, Dave. Order this and order your homework in a neat and tidy manner, in the way you have been taught.

'Weapons of Mass Instruction - John Taylor Gatto

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM

WATCH THIS....You Might Learn Something!!

The Purpose and Origins of Public Education - John Taylor Gatto - Youtube


I'll be asking questions later...because this man is hugely important...and I'm stunned that NONE of you have even mentioned John Taylor Gatto, because he is a teacher of THIRTY years...an award winning New York teacher who has changed the way so many of us are now thinking...and who has blown the whistle on State Education......

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:40 PM

Throw the policies away.   :0)


It's simply not necessary for children to do homework.


And Dave, when I said 'Leave our kids alone" I meant home educated ones. I've no problems with children who go to school and love it.
But do NOT force all children to go to school or to abide by the Bloody Curriculum.


So, no-one's answered me yet...

IF schools are doing this wonderful job, why is the country so dumbed down? Why are employers always complaining that kids can't do this, can't do that..? Why are so many kids at University who er...aren't really bright enough to be there? Why has a degree now become almost meaningless, as in 'everybody's got one of those'?

Home Educated children are actually seen as different, in a very positive way, because they're outside The System and more often than not, think for themselves, think differently, don't run with the pack mentality.

Just another way of looking at things.......

I've spent the last 30 minutes looking at the kids my daughter went to school with, on Facebook photos..They're all interchangeable. Everyone's partying till they drop, drinking till they drop...

I feel I've suddenly started living inside HELLO magazine! It was spooky and depressing, because I remember those children when they were little..and they were very different back then..but then, that was before they were sent inside The System for near on 13 years.....

..,..then, when they came out...............

"There's a pink one, and a blue one and a green one and a yellow one....and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same..."


And still the Little Hitlers yelled....

"More Rules!"
"More Regulations!"
"More Checks!"
"More TESTS!"
"More EXAMS!"
"NO Home Education!"
"Stamp them all the same!"

..."there's a pink one and a blue one..and..........

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:33 PM

A lot of schools have a homework policy and the teacher would be regarded as not doing their job if they didn't follow that policy and set homework. I'm sure there are plenty of teachers who would be delighted not to have to mark homework!

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM

Y'know I'm seeing a physical therapist for my back pain. Why can't she fix me in the two 30 minute sessions I see her in every week? No - For some reason she wants me to do other exersizes ON MY OWN TIME!!!!

Pretty cheeky of her if you ask me.....

Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM

Mrs D, Lizzie's daughter left school for home education at 15.


Wesley: they also won't understand the difference between superficial, sound-bite trivia (of the type you get very commonly on the internet, for example) and in-depth knowledge and research (which you only gain from a variety of sources and from exploring a topic more deeply).

Often, what can be achieved in an hour's lesson in the classroom (less by the time you factor in arrival, registers, and putting-away time at the end of the lesson) alongside 30 other people works in tandem with more in-depth study that takes place over time, at home, through reading books and completing longer-term projects. The classroom teaching leads and supports the in-depth learning.