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BS: £800 fine for low school attendance
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:03 PM Oh Dear..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:44 PM The man, whose name I have NOT put into this thread, by the way..was held in prison, on remand. Whilst there, he was put on suicide watch. He liked little girls in underwear. He took photos of young girls in their underwear. He had rigged up cameras under desks and in other places, for this purpose. He then put them on the internet. He is apparently NOT a danger to children, sexually (yeah, right) according to the judge, who, for some strange reason, then put him on the Sex Offenders Register and banned him from ever working with children again. Despite him saying the man was not a danger to children..makes sense, huh? I knew that man. I used to walk past him every day. I spoke to him at Parents Evenings, I spoke to him in passing, I knew where he lived...In fact, folkiedave, I know a helluva lot more about him than you do. He was one of my daughter's teachers. He used to tell me how much he liked my daughter..(yeah, right) Luckily, she always wore trousers to school, so her underwear was never on show, and therefore, I'd assume he never took photos, but who the hell knows, eh? So, stick that up yer 'I know everything better than you!' jumper...folkiedave... And while we're at it, shall we ask that same judge to pass sentence on creepy men who follow women around the internet, folkiedave??????? Shall we show him the **evidence**?????????? Because if you don't stop fucking stop doing what you're doing, I'm going to be bringing charges against you, mate...and the evidence is all here, on Mudcat...of the way you stalk me! David, thank you for your sarcasm. I'm sure it made you laugh. My computer though, is old. So is my brain, but that is not yet old enough to not be able to work out how to turn a computer on. I went through the boring machinations of my old computer for your grandson. I will never bother again. Jade, stop lecturing me. You're really getting up my nose! I can whatever I fucking well want with my Facebook page, as can every other person on the planet! I do not have to explain to ANYONE why I am closing it down, or even THAT I am closing it down. The fact you took it so personally shows the craziness of the power of Facebook, where people become so stressed out because of something so utterly insignificant. I have said on here many times, that I don't like Facebook and have closed various pages I've made, down. And I will write as *I* want to, not as YOU want me to. I have never told you how to write, nor what to write, nor commented on your writing in any way, other than to say I'm fair fed up with your behaviour towards me. You are completely free to behave that way though, but do NOT tell me how to write, or try to analyse me all the time. My brain is mine, not yours, and ONLY I know how it works, because ONLY I have the key to it. I have been told by the Moaning Minnies, for over 6 years that I should write in a way they like, they want, they demand. I've told them all, at different times, to fook off and leave me be. If you don't like what I write, you don't have to read it....it really is that simple, just see my name and stroll on by... Interesting, Ralph, that now Joe has come forward about home education, you've become a changed man....Hmmmmmmmm "Back to the origins of this thread 800 pound fine for low school attendance? I'd make it 8000 pounds. (and a jail sentence for child abuse)" There are many teachers who are guilty of child abuse...It is mental abuse that very often lasts a lifetime. They should be fined FAR more than £8,000 for it...and lose their jobs too. "Let's just leave parenting to parents, and teaching to teachers." Why? Parents are teachers also. We teach our children to feed, to crawl, to walk, to talk, to dress themselves, to eat, to cook, to look after their belongings, to read, to sit, to listen, to bathe, to brush their teeth, to wash their hair, to mend their clothes, to have a bank account, to read, to add up, to take away, to times their tables, to garden, to plant seeds, to find their way on public transport, to use libraries, to shop, to use the internet, to love music, to love, to tolerate, to read maps, to pack their suitcases, to do their washing, their ironing, to be polite, to be kind, to be thoughtful, to be empathetic... What the fuck makes you think we can't teach them about any other subject under the sun???????? With computers we can travel to The British Museum, the British Library, we can look at any subject under the sun, and find out amazing things about those subjects! ALL parents are teachers, even if they are bad parents. Not ALL teachers are parents.. Confirm in a child's mind that they never have to Conform! School restricts, rules and regulates. Home Education brings Freedom of thought, lessons, speech, time, life. I have seen the results, many of you have not. I have seen BOTH sides of the coin, and I know in which method of learning my children have flourished. They do not learn to anyone's criteria, other than their own, and that is what has made them the fascinating, magical and intelligent young people that they are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Ebbie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM From the link: "Defence counsel Michael Brabin said Toye had been so worried about his behaviour that he had sought help, but the person from whom he sought counselling was without qualification in that sort of work and it was an ineffective exercise." It would have been nice if the person from whom he sought counseling had competent training in the subject, nicht wahr? |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:17 PM BTW - It took me TWENTY bloody minutes to turn my computer back ON. Ever thought of taking a computer course? It should realy take no longer than two or three. Just being helpful - honest. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:14 PM I agree. Home education can be the best way to go for some children, but (as in the US apparently) it has to be monitored, and criteria have to be met. Just hoiking your child out of school and not teaching them anything worthwhile, achieves nothing. Which is why (UK) we have built an education and health system that is still "Free at the point of need" Yes, of course it's imperfect, underfunded, etc, etc. Isn't any government run institution guilty of that? But here are my thoughts.(Worth nothing, obviously!) I'd rather have health and education run the way it is here (however rickety the system) than in other countries I could mention. Back to the origins of this thread 800 pound fine for low school attendance? I'd make it 8000 pounds. (and a jail sentence for child abuse) Let's just leave parenting to parents, and teaching to teachers. And lets just hope that teachers and parents do their jobs correctly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Folkiedave Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:57 PM Actually Ralph, you should worry about sending your children to school in Sidmouth,because my daughter was taught by a paedeophile, as I've said many times before. He was sent to prison for it, put on suicide watch. The allegation that someone is a paedophile is a very serious one. Especially when the writer says it has been repeated on a number of occasions. But even more especially when it isn't true. "The judge, who said Toye did not represent a threat of serious sexual harm to children, ordered destruction of the photographic equipment, and ordered him to go on the Sex Offenders Register." The allegation that someone was sent to prison is a very serious one, especially when it isn't true. He was sentenced to a supervision order. The story is here. I will also point out that the daughter in question was either home educated or taught in this school. I will also point out to Joe Offer before this is moderated off the board that by allowing this allegation to remain on the Mudcat, and because of the peculiar nature of the English libel law - Mudcat is equally liable for this false allegation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:27 PM I really do not think that this thread or any of the comments in it are worth getting upset over; it just is not worth it! Home education is right for some children and school is right for others. Some parents do a wonderful job educating their children at home and others don't. The same applies to schools. It's as simple as that. As for the fines - it is the right of every child to have an education. Something has to be done to ensure that each child has that opportunity. I've forgotten everything that was said at the start of the thread so this could already have been answered but presumably it works the same way as some other fines in that people are means tested to determine how much they can afford to pay or to determine if there is some other more appropriate action that can be taken. If there was a blanket fine then some already disadvantaged child could be even more disadvantaged and that would be unfair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:23 PM And don't go crying into your cup about this message How about laughing my socks off? I have no doubt that your lad was very poorly indeed. I have 5 kids and now 1 grandson. I have had my share of nasty disieses and life threatening situations. Diabetes Pnemonia Bronchalitus Asthma Rotovirus Depression Stress I could go on (and on and on) but I prefer not to make every thread about me. I prefer to listen to the advice of EXPERTS and, up to now, they have generaly done well by us. This latest incident was well controlled and did not develop into a serious case of dehydration because we followed the advice given. Had I followed the advice of the greengrocer or the man who sells newspapers I am sure our poor little lad would have been a lot worse as well. Or maybe I should follow your advice? You've seen rotovirus in its mild form Judging by a few comments on the internet, never having seen me or my grandson and having no medical training at all you have diagnosed my grandson as having a 'mild form' of rotovirus? And you wonder why people shake their heads in disbelief? Get a grip on reality before you do some serious damge to someone daft enough to believe you. Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: jeddy Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:17 PM lizzie, i have waited a little to reply to you. i think my last post was a little harsh, i am sorry if you feel this is some kind of conspiricy. it isn't. when you shut down your FB page, it would have been nice if you had posted thats what you were going to do. even just the day before then shut it down. but it seems as though you cared nothing for the friends you did have and how they would take it. personal feelings aside. i see why people get so angry and frustrated talking to you. take the worry about dave. rather than making him feel better, you probably worried the hell out of him. sometimes too much info is worse than not knowing. where you could have said my son had it, it is very nasty, so please be watchful and be ready to phone an ambulance. you went on about your experiance, i can only imagine how scary that was, but may have just scared the bloke senseless needlessly. i think the problem is that you don't relate your feelings to anyone else.maybe if you could be abit more empathetic it would help you communicate? i know you feel victimised and there is a way to stop this happening. if you wanted it to. it often comes across as you want and need the attention that being controversial brings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:07 PM Has she gone? Is it safe to come out now? Only asking.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Greg F. Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:07 PM Lizzie, please get some professional help before its too late. I say this out of concern, not out of anger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Ebbie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:03 PM "Leave me alone, get out of my life, out of my face. "LC Good God! You could do the same thing by just leaving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:55 AM It was not bait, Backwoodsman, so please, back off! It was not a personal attack, Dave!!! It was ANGER and CONCERN!!!!! It took me TWENTY bloody minutes to turn my computer back ON. It was late, I'd already gone to bed! But I got back out of bed, came in here... WHY???? Because MY SON had that virus...and he was in Derriford Hospital, touch and go, for the first few days, as his whole body started to close down with the shocking dehydration he suffered! I got through the ENTIRE vast linen cupboard on that ward in ONE night, David! You've seen rotovirus in its mild form, well trust me, in it's worst it is shocking, absoulutely shocking!!! I was helped by the nursing staff who were themselves worn out and overworked... That is all irrelevant really, but it came out because my mind was filled with the horrors of that terrible ordeal when I thought I'd lose my son. My mind takes me write back to that time, runs the whole film through again in every minute detail! I was worried sick that your grandson may of started to go down the same road, so I wanted to tell you what the worst case scenario was and not to take any shite from anyone. I AM tired of the fucking stupig 'games' you all play with me, to while away your hours, throwing the most incredibly unfeeling, uncaring remarks my way, about my children, my intelligence, my family, my personal life. There are some fucking nasty people in here, some of whom follow me round the internet. Why? What the fuck for?????????????? WHY THE FUCK would they put down little 'secret codes' to me to tell me, in secret, that they know something else about me????? Come on, Folkiefuckingdave, come out here and fight like a man, you creep! Stop creeping round the internet, then telling your buddies about it, so that they too put down their coded messages...eh, 'ruth'..... GEEZ, you people make me sick! And Show of Hands think that *******I******* am unpleasant?????? NEVER again, Dave, will I take the trouble to do something like that. I was deeply concerned for your grandson, NOTHING else!! But here again..here you go with the Oh, Lizzie's had this, Lizzie's had that and she's had it worse..." Well, YES I DID!! My son was incredibly ill! So make of that what the fuck you want! And don't go crying into your cup about this message, because you have been baiting and baiting me for message after message!! Here...another way of looking at things! "Dear Lizzie, Thank you so much for telling me about your son. I realise, after having been such a total shite to you for so long in here, that it was a big step for you to overcome your anger. But you did, and you did it for my grandson. Thankfully, he is now OK, but I realise he could well have taken a turn for the worse, and your message may well have then proved invaluable. I hope that from now on we can be friends and I am backing right off, as of this moment, from constantly belittling your words, your children, your life, your intelligence. I am no longer going to be part of this disgusting Witch Hunt... I have judged you so wrongly, and I apologise. Best wishes Dave" Hah! Fat chance, eh! Oh..and if Chris Murray is in here, or out there, someone tell her, and John Freeman that I am NOT on the BBC board, and whoever started the Reg Meuross thread was NOT me. BUt again, out they come with their pompous "We KNOW it's you, Lizzie!" Well, it fucking wasn't, so didn't all of you look dumb! Leave me alone, get out of my life, out of my face. Oh...and could someone please explain to me why, if school is so fucking wonderful, my country and the USA, where the National Curriculum started, are now both SOOOOO dumbed down to the point of total disbelief???? Thank you. And Joe, I'm sorry, but these people drive me nuts!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:39 AM I can't BWM - I use it on my own rod:-) Besides, I like to do my bit to help the attention deficient... :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Backwoodsman Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:21 AM Then stop taking the bait Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 11:14 AM I forgot to mention this bit in my amazement at how twisted things can get... From Lizzie - David, I tried to help you last night, out of concern for your grandson. I was wrong to do this, because even THAT you have used to belittle me. I find that deeply disturbing. I will not bother again. Does anyone apart from me remember HOW that help was offered and how ironic the 'deeply disturbing' remark is? Well, I can show you. This is how the 'helping me' post was phrased - David, forget this fucking stupid game you like to play and listen!! I've just turned the computer back on to come and tell you this, because it's worrying me. "I realy do appreciate your concern. Apparently everyone in the world is expected to get the rotovirus before they are two years old! That is something that realy does concern me!" Whoever told you that was talking rubbish. Yes, it's common, but it's not THAT common. Also, it can be really awful, and I mean mega AWFUL. My son slipped into unconsciousness for near on two days when he had it. He was utterly and completely dehydrated. I have never seen a little soul go downhill so rapidly and so frighteningly. So, in a nutshell, to 'help' me, she began with a personal attack (forget this fucking stupid game etc.) It then went on to state that my verifyable statment about everyone getting it was rubbish. Well, OK - That was part right. It was not everyone before the age of two, but everyone before the edge of five. Rubbish though? I think not. It then went on to Lizzie's favourite subject, Herself. No matter what has happened to anyone it has always happened to Lizzie, worse, more often, differently and with knobs on. How was any of this suppose to be helping me? For anyone to even imagine it would is what is realy disturbing... I am getting heartily sick of it all. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:31 AM As for fining parents who keep their child off school at the drop of a hat with no substitute education in place You know I was just thinking about that! This thread started in support, apparantly, of parents who keep their children off school with NO substiture education. The parents who are fined, usualy as a last resort, because their children are not being educated at all. While I agree with many of the posts on home education and can see how it works well for some I cannot understand why anyone would support children not being educated at all. Perhaps it's all to do with returning to those old fasioned values we keep being told about:-) Keep the riff-raff out of schools. Education is just for the middle classes driving around the countryside in their Austin 7's whilst bemoaning the youngsters who show no respect... :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:26 AM Home educating children varies from country to country and is illegal in some countries. It is growing in the UK and there is help available for those parents who would like/need it. For the majority of parents it would be impossible for them to educate their children properly at home - time constraints, confidence etc. If a child becomes a school refuser through, for example, bullying then there are special, qualified and sympathetic teachers provided by the education system who will go to the home and tutor that child. A parent/guardian has to be present in the home to protect both the child and the tutor. If a parent/guardian cannot be present because of work commitments then there are other 'safe' places where the child can be taught - not necessarily at a centre but it could be the local public library for instance. Many parents are not able or even willing to home educate their child. Those children are catered for by the many good/very good/excellent teachers in the many good/very good/excellent schools that we have in the UK. There are systems in place to identify poor teachers/poor schools and to address those problems. As for fining parents who keep their child off school at the drop of a hat with no substitute education in place then there has to be something to discourage this because every child is entitled to an education. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Emma B Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:19 AM The information provided by Joe Offer was very interesting; I had not heard of Charter schools before. The use of a mentor and facilities, that would not normally be available in the home, sounds like an excellent idea. I can appreciate however his comment that their popularity may further diminish the effectiveness of local public education provision. in some kind of downward spiral In attempting to find out more about this system I discovered that it is subject to strong criticism from some homeschoolers such as Eugene Newman, president of Christian Home Educators of Michigan and father of ten homeschooled children, on the basis that - 'Public education isn't necessary and it is destructive of our society' 'A home-based charter school will bring the government into the home.' and 'Home-based charter schools would affirm in a new way the illegitimate role the state plays in education. Dependency, any dependency on state programs, in any area, will always be at the expense of the private moral duty of citizens." It is this aspect of registration and a minimum of monitoring recommended in the Badman Report that seems to have inflamed home educators in the UK However, the report also recommends that local authorities should work in collaboration with schools and colleges to offer more support to home educated students, including access to libraries, sports facilities, music tuition and work experience and also must provide support for home educating children and young people to find appropriate examination centres and provide entries free to all home educated candidates who have demonstrated sufficiently their preparedness through routine monitoring, for all DCSF funded qualifications. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 05:31 AM Well, seeing as no-one else has claimed it - 200! |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:49 AM Ah well. I guess we just need to agree to disagree once again. I get no particular pleasure from banging my head on a wall but I feel it right, every now and again, to try reason and logic. It is obviously never going to work but I will probably try again in a week or two. And be accused, once again, of victimisation or bullying or some other such nonsense. I will add one thing to my list of experts to ask For advice on purchases I go to a shopkeeper For education I go to a teacher To get well I go to a doctor For a headache I go to one of these threads... :D (eG) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:14 AM Joe. Thanks for that insight from your side of the pond. Sadly, I don't think that the same checks and balances apply over here in the UK. And I think it is dangerous to allow parents to make such a (potentially) life changing decision about their childrens future education, without explicit counselling and support from experts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:48 AM I'm retired, so I was able to afford the time to homeschool my stepson through high school. We registered with a charter school that provided books, tutoring, laboratory classes, Rosetta Stone for German, and teaching for subjects I couldn't teach. We had as mentor teacher who monitored our progress and conducted testing. All expenses were paid by California taxes. It worked very well for us, but the mentor teacher complained that a lot of parents did not have the time or ability to give their children a good education at home. I have a friend who's a college professor (and sometime Mudcatter). he and his wife are homeschooling their children independently, without help from a charter school. Even though he's a professor, he gets hassled. I don't know if it's law yet, but there has been a proposal to require homeschooled California children to be taught under the supervision of a credentialed teacher. There are three homeschool charter schools in my area, and they seem to be quite popular and successful. The elementary schools in the area are low in enrollment and struggling financially, so charter schools can have a very bad effect on the regular schools. Still, I'm very glad I homeschooled Josh. He had problems all through grade school and hated going to school. Now he's in college, getting good grades, and really enjoying himself. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:36 AM Thanks Emma B. So, in the US, home schooling is allowed, with differing checks and balances between states, but the progress of children is monitored on a regular basis so, that the child can be seen to be getting a decent level of education. But, in the UK, no such system is in place? If so, why do people train to be teachers. Why not just have a child and say. "That qualifies me to teach"..... Personally, I would say I know about the sciences and music, but, I'd be rubbish at languages or literature.. I'm intrigued as to how a full time Mother (or Father obviously) with all the jobs that running a home entails, can also be an expert in such an array of subjects, up to GCSE standards? Even if it was possible. How many hours are there in the day to provide competent teaching for their children? |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Ebbie Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:58 PM I agree, Emma B. I can't imagine not having to show results. In the US - at least in the states with which I'm familiar - parents/children mail their papers to a central body. In Alaska, it's a 'school district' that serves all communities. One Mudcatter that I know used to work for one such school district. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Emma B Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:53 PM The differences between the legislation relating to home schooling in America and in England has been discussed in a previous thread. As outlined in wiki "Homeschooling laws (in the US) can be divided into three categories: 1. In some states, homeschooling requirements are based on its treatment as a type of private school (California, Indiana, Texas, for example) In those states, homeschools are generally required to comply with the same laws that apply to other (usually non-accredited) schools. 2. In other states, homeschool requirements are based on the unique wording of the state's compulsory attendance statute without any specific reference to "homeschooling" (New Jersey, Maryland, for example). In those states, the requirements for homeschooling are set by the particular parameters of the compulsory attendance statute. 3. In other states (Maine, New Hampshire, Iowa, for example) homeschool requirements are based on a statute or group of statutes that specifically applies to homeschooling, although statutes often refer to homeschooling using other nomenclature (in Virginia, for example, the statutory nomenclature is "home instruction"; in South Dakota, it is "alternative instruction"; in Iowa, it is "competent private instruction"). In these states, the requirements for homeschooling are set out in the relevant statutes. While every state has some requirements, there is great diversity in the type, number, and level of burden imposed" However in the UK the number of children not attending school is not even known but is 'thought to be' between 20,000 and 50,000 ! Parents have to tell a local authority when they remove a child from school, but not that they are home educating, and local authorities can only insist on seeing children when there are very specific welfare concerns. A website that is aimed at home educators admits "Many new home teachers are surprised to find that ... in order to provide a child's education at home, parents (or any other home educator figures) are not required to have a teaching qualification, or in fact any subject or other qualification. Many home teaching parents are very surprised to discover the lack of rules or regulation monitoring the home educator. Again, new home educating parents may be surprised to find that they are not required to follow any curricula, including the National Curriculum, with their home school child, the teaching timetable (or indeed, a decision to learn without any kind of timetable or teaching structure) is open to the home schooling family to determine. Nor do home schooling families have to learn for or participate in national tests like Key Stage tests or Standard Assessment Tests - these are all non-compulsory. Home educators are not subject to any kind of formal assessment that might occur in schools, such as inspection or testing of pupils to check the education is being aptly provided." A recent independent review of elective home education in the UK looked at on the one hand, the absence of prescription in relation to home education and the ability of home educating families to refuse contact with their local authority, and, on the other, the duty on local authorities to ensure that every child in their area is receiving a suitable education and concluded that - All children and young people are entitled to a good education. This doesn't necessarily mean children have to go to school: many parents choose to educate their child at home but suggested closer monitoring of home educators, including a compulsory annual registration scheme and that that home educating families should provide some form of statement of their intended approach to their child's education. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Ebbie Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:50 PM I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do have some opinions on home schooling. In the US I don't believer it is considered odd nor that it puts children 'at risk'. Rather, in my experience, a family that homeschools tends to be considered 'hands on' parents with a great interest in seeing that their children do well without the distractions of problem children in the public schools and with the hope of getting the children safely past the peer pressures. The children that I know that were homeschooled are almost invariably ahead of their age groups in class levels and with higher grades. My daughter (in public schools all the way) homeschooled - in California - her three children for the first three grades then went to a dual set up, where she taught at home three days a week and they went to charter school for the other two days. My daughter does not have a teaching degree (She majored in English) but for those two days each week she taught as a teachers assistant in the same charter school. When they reached high school age, all three children went to parochial high school, I think it's called. One child now is in her second year at Arizona State, her twin is attending Community College, getting some of the required courses out of the way and working part time, the youngest child is a senior at high school. My niece and her husband in Oregon also homeschool their brood. Their two biological children attended public schools all the way: one is a young man who today doesn't seem to know what he wants out of life, the other is a young woman who will always do well. She is a Nurse Practitioner/Midwife who teaches several nursing courses annually at a local college; she got married several years ago and they now have a year old baby. When their children were half grown my niece and her husband started taking in foster children; they ended up adopting nine of them. All of them Fetal Alcohol affected, to a greater or lesser degree. They homeschooled every one of them. The first three - all about the same age - are about 22 years old now: two are now married and one just had a baby a few months ago. My niece and her husband's remaining children range in age from 8 to 14 or so. Oh- neither my niece nor her husband attended college. My whole point is that every case is different, but - at least in the US - home education does not trigger a black mark against the student, and that it needn't entail an either/or situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST, Poxicat Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:08 PM I'll lay you odds. If you understand how statistics work. Take the two populations - one the children who were school educated and the other the children who were home educated (or the idiots who bunked off). Now figure out (if you can) the proportion of the first population who are in the top decile of earners and the proportion of the second population. Now reverse it. Of the first population, what proportion are in the bottom decile of earners, and of the second population waht proportion are in the bottom decile. Quod erat demonstrandum. Or if you like, what proportions of the first population and the second commit suicide. Or what proportion of the first populations and the second are imprisoned at any time, or convicted of any offences at any time (juvenile or adult). It's a no-brainer. Rubbish finishes up at the tip. bottom |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:31 PM Lizzie, being taught by a paedophile is not the norm; you have been so unfortunate in your experiences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:20 PM Actually Ralph, you should worry about sending your children to school in Sidmouth,because my daughter was taught by a paedeophile, as I've said many times before. He was sent to prison for it, put on suicide watch. His mate, another teacher, KNEW what he was doing, yet he did not tell the headmaster for a very long time. He simply told his mate he shouldn't be doing it. What this teacher was doing was getting young girls to reach up to a particular shelf, those girls who had skirts on...and of course, he had a camera built in there. The photos were then loaded up on to the internet. Luckily, someone found some of the photos and alerted the police. I don't know how they found them, but the whole story can be checked with The Sidmouth Herald, if you don't believe me. I'm not going through the many incidences of bad teachers again, as I've put them down here in Mudcat many times over, but I had those exact circumstances happen to me too, of teachers belittling me, yelling at me, getting cross because I did not understand...and it wasn't just me, but some of my friends as well. "...Take children out of school and "educate" them your way and you will produce the useless and incapable." And YOU call ME 'stupid'? That remark is so beneath contempt that it is barely worth replying to. Tell me, O Arrogant 'Poxi' One, what is it in your mind that has so brainwashed you into thinking, into believing that the ONLY way a child can learn is through school? Open your mind. "Anyone who thinks that children don't need to learn grammar, spelling, arithmetic and mathematics and the general need to obey rules is condemning those children to failure and misery.." My children know to question rules. They know to question those who make 'the rules' too. They are intelligent, kind, compassionate human beings. All the employers my daughter has worked for have asked her to stay on, told her there is always a job open for her, because they know she is intelligent, reliable, honest and hardworking. She does not need your approval, nor the stamp of 'THIS CHILD HAS BEEN SCHOOLED AND IS THEREFORE A PROPER HUMAN BEING' upon her head. And..for your information, had she decided to study Art at Exeter College, they'd have taken her without any GCSEs or A Levels, because they are deeply open-minded to Home Educated children these days, knowing them to have a love of learning and to not want to be destructive or abusive in class. My daughter chose an Open University course instead though, after the Head of Art had warned her that if she was expecting the College to be any different from school, she had to let her know that it wouldn't be, because there were still young people there who did not want to learn, who disrupted lessons and who were only there for the money they now get paid to stay in Further Education. My daughter has been there, done that, got the scars and is fed up to the back teeth of kids who don't want to learn. You choose your way. I'll choose mine. And I can assure you, that mine, is probably even better than yours, because the child learns what they have a love of. It starts with giving them a love of reading, a love of learning...and letting them understand that the world of books, the world of the internet, gives you an open library of thought, feelings, discoveries... So, 'Poxi' may I suggest that you take your 'STUPID' and shove it where The Turnip People live. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:15 PM BTW - Forgot to ask before. Which of the 'wolf pack' hunting you down am I supposed to be friends with? I have only met two of them. One once and the other twice. I do have a fond regard or everyone I have ever met here but I have probably communicated with you as much as anyone else on the mudcat! And I still don't know what 'game' I am playing. I would love to as I am usualy crap at games and only play the ones I know I can win! Let me in to the secret. Please! Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM Lizzie - where did I belittle you? I did nothing but point out that you were wrong. Which is not belittling someone. It is what people do when involved in serious discussions and should it be proven that I was wrong I hope I would be grown up enough to accept it without rancour or cause to develop any conspiricy theories. Let us go back to the shop assistant analogy again. I know very little outside the narrow fields of music and high availability computing. If I want to buy something I ask a shop assistant. If I want to be educated I ask a teacher. If I want to avice on health matters I ask a doctor. I am 100% sure that you are a wonderful shop assistant and that shop keeping is indeed a noble profession. Was it Napoleon that called us a nation of shopkeepers? He meant it as in insult but it made everyone proud to be British - rightly so! Anyhow, I would ask your advice and believe it wholeheartedly, on any concern I had over the fitnes of purpose or merchantable quality of my purchses. But you must excuse me if I take not the slightest bit of notice if you offer unsolicited advice on matters as important as childrens health and education. Crazy though I may be I would rather trust the professionals. Oh, and those plumbers and builders that you mentioned that cannot read or write? Rememeber? I would not trust one of those to know the vital life-saving safety regulations on the latest gas or electrical equipment. If you chose to risk it then that is entirely up to you. Good luck. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:35 PM Well, we should all be very grateful to Lizzie for one gem of information. Be Warned. Don't send your children to school in Sidmouth! (note to eanjay....It's not worth it. she doesn't and won't listen to reasoned arguement. It's been tried for years to no avail. My partner is a teacher, as is my sister, and many friends) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:28 PM Lizzie, they may be facts - but those facts are still based on your experiences; you cannot judge the whole of a profession and the education system on those experiences. I'm not saying that what you are saying, based on your experiences, is wrong but your experiences do not represent the majority of experiences throughout the country so you cannot condemn the whole system. I am a qualified teacher with a lot of experience. I have taught in different schools, on temporary contracts, on permanent contracts, I have worked as a supply teacher, I have taught in a Young Offenders' Institution and I have been a REOTAS (Re-integration and Education Otherwise Than At School) tutor. I have held positions of responsibilty in schools and I have been an ITT (Initial Teacher Training) mentor - in other words I have been part of the teacher training process. I am also a mother. I have seen many wonderful teachers during my teaching career and many happy children. I have had a lot of experience and success teaching children with learning difficulties ~ in maths too :-) I understand what you are saying about teachers being born to teach but there are many wonderful teachers out there who have worked hard to become good teachers and I am sorry that your experience has been so poor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM "My opinion is based on my experiences too, but it is also based on facts and evidence ;-) " So is mine, eanjay. The facts are that my children had to endure one helluva lot from teachers who should have known better. The evidence was plain to see in the deep unhappiness caused to both my children because of what had happened to them at school. Facts and Experience don't get much more personal than that. I always support excellent teachers, but I damn The System, because I have personally seen way too many children who have been damaged by it, heard too many parents deeply anxious about their children, their exams, the way it's affecting them all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:27 PM We'll agree to disagree then Lizzie. It's a shame that you and some of your friends have had bad experiences and I can understand your opinion based on those experiences although I do not agree with it and I think it is unfair to make sweeping generalisations about the whole teaching profession and education system based on those experiences. My opinion is based on my experiences too, but it is also based on facts and evidence ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:14 PM David, I tried to help you last night, out of concern for your grandson. I was wrong to do this, because even THAT you have used to belittle me. I find that deeply disturbing. I will not bother again. Sorry, eanjay, on this one, I am not with you at all. I have had exactly the opposite experience of teachers and I have dealt with many over the years at various schools. There are only two that I would refer to as 'teachers'...the rest were a complete waste of space, as far as I was concerned. They did not inspire my children in the slightest, in fact..the exact opposite. This is still going on with my friends' children who are having very similar problems with the 'I'm in charge' brigade. Brilliant teachers are born, not made. And they do a huge amount of good in this dumbed down world, changing children's lives around, inspiring them, often, for life. THAT is the role of a teacher, in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:37 AM I have a lot of experience in education and good teachers are most definitely not in the minority; there are some unsatisfactory teachers but these are the minority and they are soon discovered and things are put into place to change that. In all fairness to Lizzie she did say that it was "in her opinion" which she is entitled to have, but there isn't any actual evidence to support that opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:22 AM Thanks again eanjay. It is much more difficult for poor teachers to survive for long in schools these days. sort of says what I believed all along. Like I said before, the argument is simply about whether we believe Lizzies statement that And I disagree with you about good teachers. They are NOT, imo, 'in general' but 'in the minority'. or whether we belive that the majority of teachers are good. I know which I believe and I am not likely to be swayed, unless someone comes out with verifyable proof, and Lizzie is not likely to be swated even if proof is provided. You are perfectly entitled to your opinions, Lizzie, but no matter how often or how loud you proclaim them, they will not become facts I'm afraid. Sorry Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:13 AM It is much more difficult for poor teachers to survive for long in schools these days. There are some very good teachers around whose expertise, commitment, professionalism etc. give many children a good experience during their school life. The pastoral side of teaching is just as important as the academic and there are some excellent form tutors and year heads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM Thanks eanjay. I guess that means that the majority are classed as good? The excelent ones get a higher pay, the poor ones get less and the worst get the sack? |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:36 AM The threshold in teaching was introduced about 10 years ago. You only have to look at how many teachers have crossed the threshold in teaching and are now on the post threshold pay scale to see how many good teachers there are in our schools today. Each step requires 2 years of assessment for each teacher including observations of classroom teaching and evidence from Performance Management Reviews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:06 AM Sorry - my bad memory. It was by the age of 5, not 2. From the article kindly linked by Poxicat - By the age of five, nearly every child in the world has been infected with rotavirus at least once You see why people begin to doubt you, Lizzie, when you rely on anecdotes and one-off experiences rather than the confirmed facts? When most things you say go against what is actual fact and against most other peoples experience is it any wonder that it seems you are a lone voice? The important thing is that he was under the doctor and not 'fobbed off' by the GP. The doctor took it very seriously and confirmed that if he was to get any worse or show no signs of improvement bu last Thursday he was to go to hospital. Fortunately he did improve dramiticaly within the specified week and he is fine now. But the legacy lingers on in us carers! Oh, and btw, what is this fucking stupid game you like to play. It is now my turn to be intrigued. Do you mean the game of finding facts that do not fit your theories or simply the game of accepting real life? Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: GUEST, Poxicat (NB perfectly consistent ID) Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:01 AM The actual facts about rotavirus, not that that will matter to some: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wi ki/Rotavirus
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:17 PM David, forget this fucking stupid game you like to play and listen!! I've just turned the computer back on to come and tell you this, because it's worrying me. "I realy do appreciate your concern. Apparently everyone in the world is expected to get the rotovirus before they are two years old! That is something that realy does concern me!" Whoever told you that was talking rubbish. Yes, it's common, but it's not THAT common. Also, it can be really awful, and I mean mega AWFUL. My son slipped into unconsciousness for near on two days when he had it. He was utterly and completely dehydrated. I have never seen a little soul go downhill so rapidly and so frighteningly. IF things should start to get suddenly worse, then do not waste ANY time, do not take any crap from any GP who tries to fob you off, just get him to hospital FAST, because he'll need to be on a drip. They were deeply concerned about Josh, to the point where when I questioned if he'd get better, they just stared at me and looked awkward. That was it. From that moment on I didn't leave his side, other than to use the bathroom. I slept right next to him, held his hand 24/7, changed his bed hour after hour after hour with the sweet nurses who helped me as much as they could. Rotovirus can be **very** serious, so *please* read this and remember, because my son was quite a bit older than your grandson, but still it layed him out for that length of time. Afterwards, he was extremely weak, taking well over a week to recover enough to leave hospital. Forget everything else to do with this thread, and just make sure you keep a very close eye on him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:21 PM Oh - BTW, the OFSTED report was quite damning. When you say So you'll excuse me if I don't believe the word of OFSTED do you think that their findings are better or worse than they report? And what basis do you have for that view? What proportion of schools do you believe are inaequate and why? What, in other words, are the reasons you expect us to believe that the majority of teachers are bad? Just made it back:-) Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:13 PM He seems fine now, thanks Lizzie. I realy do appreciate your concern. Apparently everyone in the world is expected to get the rotovirus before they are two years old! That is something that realy does concern me! Now, back to the point. You have asked for proof that the majority of teachers are good. I have provided it. You refuse to believe that proof. Where do we go now? If we are to rely on hearsay and anecdotes instead of concrete evidence where will it end up? I am not doubting your experience but why should I believe that yours is typical and not mine or Freds or Berts or anyone else's? It is only hard evidence that cuts the mustard. Where is yours? Dashing to the loo again Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:50 PM "Back to you to provide this proof of the majority of teachers being bad I suppose:-( " The headmaster who did SO much damage to my daughter and many within her Year Group, those who'd come before her, and those who came after, was finally ousted by the parents of that school. He got a new job....as an OFSTED inspector. So you'll excuse me if I don't believe the word of OFSTED. I have seen, with my own eyes, bad teachers, Dave. My daughter was messed up by them, as was my son, as was I when I was at school. Most of the people I know only remember a very few teachers with fondness. Rotovirus? My son was in hospital for nearly 10 days with that, when he was just 3 years old. It is the only time in his life he was in there and he was very poorly indeed. I hope your grandson makes a swift and full recovery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Emma B Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:31 PM The problem with 'headlines' with emotive terms like 'soar' is that it is necessary to actually read the full report to read what is really behind such attention grabbing headlines The article posted by Dave points out that the increase in schools judged to be 'inadequate' in some way (not necessarily the standard of teaching) have increased to 7.5% of all schools inspected, compared with 4% six months ago However an explanation for this apparent 'increase' is also given by Ofsted "it is important to note that the new inspections have been focusing more on weaker schools and THIS COULD BE EXPECTED TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON OVERALL OUTCOMES" "Under the new arrangements, outstanding and good schools are now only inspected once within a five-year period, satisfactory schools are inspected every three years, and inadequate schools are visited regularly until they make the improvements necessary. We have also made it clear that every time an inspection framework is revised, expectations are raised too." My apologies for introducing despised facts Thank you |
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Subject: RE: BS: £800 fine for low school attendance From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:27 PM BTW - I should be at Swinton Folk Club but I am stuck on the computer 4 feet from the bathroom because my 11 month old grandson came back from London with rotovirus induced gastroenteritis. It is particulary easy to pass on as those who have had children know. For those that have no kids I'll spare you the details:-) I think it is the fault of someone else, probably a teacher, but I take full responsibilty for my actions because if I had not had a grandson I would not have got it. :D (eG) |
