BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?

Subject: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:07 AM

This was brought up in 'The Sexualisation of our Children' thread...

>>>From Crow Sister:

"Must say LC, you are quite identifiable for your classic reactionary thread titles!

Nevertheless I think LC, vocalises much of what (for want of a better term) the err common man thunks, and it's wise to heed some of what she has to say - if one is genuinely concerned with whats going down in the UK today."<<<<



...and I don't get it. ???? WHY would being concerned about children today be considered 'reactionary'?

Is it wrong these days to have morals? To have principles? To stand up and say "No, that is SO wrong!" ?

Has it become almost illegal to be the boy who told the truth about the Emperor and his clothes?

Have we all become so brainwashed, that our brains are literally awash with the thoughts of others, rather than our own?


A long time back now, on the BBC board, Sweetums described me as 'a dangerous reactionary who must be silenced'. I remember staring at those words and thinking "Eh? Huh?"   Yes, 'they' went on to silence me over there, and they behave so often like rabid dogs over here, because Joe was refused to be behave in the same way as the BBC and give in to their suppressive ways...but WHAT is this paranoia about having a different opinion to the masses?

Is a reactionary purely one who is an individual, and who chooses not to go with the crowd?   

If so, then I am proud to be one.

The dictionary states that a reactionary is one who is opposed to liberalism and progression.

Well, I see where liberalism has led us, and I ain't too happy with it, because seems to me we've become far more imprisoned by our 'freedoms' than we ever were before.

If feminism meant to end in pole dancing, then those who support a woman's liberty to do that need their heads looking at, because in my book, it takes women back decades to being sex objects, with not a great deal 'upstairs' just loadsa dosh shoved down her cleavage for wiggling her bum. Is that what the feminists wanted for women?   

Our children HAVE become sexualised, to the point where FINALLY people are starting to wake up about it.

Drinking IS out of control.

Public behaviour is also out of control (at least over here in the UK it is)

And yet, you're condemned as being MAD if you dare to stand up and say 'The Emperor has lost his clothes again! Don't believe a word he says!"

I ain't afraid of any label being hurled my way, but it seems to me, that finally society itself is starting to look to the past, for the answers to the future...

And THAT is a good thing, in my world, at least, because once, this world was a helluva lot more honest than it is now. Life was a lot simpler and in many ways, far more pleasant and protective too.

I don't like many of the New Ways.

And I am not afraid to say so.


Just my take on it though....

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:12 AM

Is it good/bad? There is nothing moral about it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:29 AM

LC, I think you're reading a VAST amount into what I posted. It wasn't a damning judgement, just a throwaway description of your 'vivid' posting style.

I'm basically 'libertarian' it describes my world-view. A very conservative person (especially if they were American) might call me a 'liberal' and because they dissaprove of my world-view they might mean it in a rude way. But if someone else dislikes my way of seeing the world, that's their business, I'm still a 'libertarian'.

You appear from your postings, to be broadly of a 'conservative' or 'reactionary' bent. Your threads are often very dramatic sounding reactions against what you perceive as excessive liberalism in modern society. I was simply describing your particular style, which is highly identifiably 'you'. It wasn't meant in a bitchy way. Just an observation - I can spot your threads because of your distinctive style.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Smedley
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:30 AM

Well it's good or bad depending on where you're looking at it from. If it's a term that usually denotes an opposition to lioberalism, then those of liberal inclinations will not surprisingly see it as bad. Though personally I would prefer to say 'wrong' rather than 'bad'.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Stower
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:57 AM

Reactionary
Communist
Radical
Terrorist
Political correctness

Sometimes people use these terms as shorthand for a particular attitude or point of view (as they see it). Unfortunately, this shorthand is very often used to *shut down* and *close* clear thinking and to *end* debate, instead of opening up thinking and promoting understanding and debate.

If you call someone a reactionary, a communist, a radical, a terrorist, or accuse them of political correctness, then you don't need to engage with them, because simply by slapping that label on them you 'prove' they are wrong by default. By and large, though, these labels tell us nothing at all about the issues in the debate and in way help us to engage. All the labels do is illicit a gut reaction, a call to run to the barricades and throw verbal missiles.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:09 AM

So, if you feel that something in the New Age of Liberalism is terribly wrong, you are not supposed to mention it anymore?

For instance, I feel the sexualisation of our children is deeply worrying. I feel the way some women now behave is degrading. I feel alcohol abuse is out of control and affecting society for the bad...

If I state my feelings on that, I'm seen as reactionary, because 'anything goes' these days...

However, if I choose to be liberal thinking myself, and home educate, believing that 'school' has had it's day and is one of the most reactionary and against so many forms of liberalism, I am STILL called 'reactionary'

Pardon me for being thick, but er...I don't quite get it.


Is it that I am ONLY classed as a reactionary if my ideas disagree with those of the masses?

Schooling as we now know it, is still based on the Victorian principles of education, pretty much, in that all children should learn what their superiors tell them, in the way they are told and do the examinations set before them, no matter if they want to, or not...

Now *that* seems SO reactionary that it beggars belief....

Hmmmmmm...I need to go think about this one a little deeper...


Excellent post, Stower.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Stower
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:27 AM

"Excellent post, Stower." Thanks, Lizzie.

"So, if you feel that something in the New Age of Liberalism is terribly wrong, you are not supposed to mention it anymore?" No, that's not what I'm saying at all. The New Age of Liberalism is just another one of the labels one could add to my list above. We need to know what the 'New Age of Liberalism' is in your mind, otherwise it's just another label to run to the barricdes with, as is calling someone a liberal as a term of abuse. What I'm saying is: these shorthand labels tell us nothing useful, engage with the issues instead. Otherwise we're just joining the ranks of those who called Obama another Hitler. Was that label helpful is bringing understanding and helping the two sides engage in the issues of the debate? I think not. It's just a missile.   

"For instance, I feel the sexualisation of our children is deeply worrying. I feel the way some women now behave is degrading. I feel alcohol abuse is out of control and affecting society for the bad..." Well, there's some issues we can debate and engage with, it seems to me.

"If I state my feelings on that, I'm seen as reactionary, because 'anything goes' these days..." And if someone calls you a reactionary and then says *no more* on ther topic, as if 'reactionary' answers all possible questions, then they are failing to engage in the issues you wish to discuss.

"However, if I choose to be liberal thinking myself, and home educate, believing that 'school' has had it's day and is one of the most reactionary and against so many forms of liberalism, I am STILL called 'reactionary'" Which just goes to show that the labels 'liberal' and 'reactionary' are meaningless and ways of shutting down clear thinking.

"Pardon me for being thick, but er...I don't quite get it." If I am a child in a school yard, I might call you all sorts of names to show that you are not part of 'my crowd'. I won't have put much thought into it, the label is simply there to show I like my crowd and I don't like yours. This name calling is just about as shallow as it can get. If I were a good adult, I would tell these children to stop name calling and begin to talk to each other, learn about each other, engage with and try to understand each other. Name calling prevents all of that.

I am saying that reactionary, communist, liberal, radical, terrorist, political correctness, are so often just adult versions of that childish behaviour. When has anyone ever become engaged with, had their understanding deepened, by being given one of these labels? When has anyone ever become engaged with, had their understanding deepened, by giving someone else one of these labels?

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:31 AM

"Is it that I am ONLY classed as a reactionary if my ideas disagree with those of the masses?"

Not at all. I'd be inclined to think precisely the opposite actually. Typically 'reactionary' implies a desire to return to an ideal earlier way of life. And of course lots of people feel exactly the same as you LC. In fact I believe your posts echo a great deal of what "the masses" as you put it, think.

If you wish to misinterpret my comment on the style of your thread titles as being some kind of all encompassing damning judgement on you and everything you've ever said or done, please feel free! Your choice. But I've told you precisely what I meant by that sentence. Full stop. It's no worse than someone saying: "CS your posts are very identifiable because of x, y or z", or someone describing my posts as typically "liberal".

You say you don't like what liberalism has done to this country.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Stower
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:36 AM

I'd just like to make it clear that I haven't followed Lizzie's posts and have no idea what her views on x, y and z are, and have no wish to be caught up in any disagreements between Lizzie and Crow Sister: I was simply responding to her original post in general terms.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:42 AM

"have no wish to be caught up in any disagreements between Lizzie and Crow Sister:"

There isn't one, and there won't be.
That's as much as I have to say on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:55 AM

Crow Sister, this thread was not started to damn you. It was only that your comment awoke a memory of a time long ago, when I was damned for having the views I have, being called, at that time, 'a dangerous reactionary'.

Please don't think I've taken umbridge with you, becauase I haven't.   ((xx))

I happen to think we have thrown away everything from the past, the good alongside the bad. That was a stupid thing to do, imo. By all means, move on, progress is life. But if the progress merely leads to the progressing of some very disturbing situations, then I feel society should have the guts to stand up and say "Hey, we were so wrong to remove 'this' or 'that' from what is important in how we behave."

It doesn't seem to go that way though. You're told you must never look back. Why not?   I've been told that I have chocolate box memories of this country, yet they are not that at all, they are simply MY memories, open, honest and truthful. They are also the memories of millions of other people of my age and older..

I feel we've let so many wonderful things go in this country, and now, we're paying the price of those unwise decisions.

Another excellent post, Stower. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:13 AM

"It was only that your comment awoke a memory of a time long ago, when I was damned for having the views I have, being called, at that time, 'a dangerous reactionary'."

Sure, I understand!
We just got some wires crossed there LC.
I didn't really mean anything much by it, it was a throwaway phrase describing your online style.

But the same term coming from a Marxist might be meant in a more deliberately negative way. It's all down to your perspective as Smedley said. Same as a right-wing American calling me 'Liberal' might be meant more offensively than it coming from an English person.

I was called "weird" at school.
But now no-body calls me "weird", mainly because I hang around with people that aren't as "boring" as those kids at school were.

Anyway, whatever.. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:15 AM

I have always understood the term Reactionary to mean backward looking.
and the term progressive to mean forward looking.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:45 AM

I kinda have a different take on the concept of "reactionary"... What is the first word that most kids learn??? It's the word "No" as parents try to keep kids from doing things that ***most*** kids will learn later are harmfulll behaviors... Problem is that some parents just don't allow their kids to get much further than the "no stage" and thus you have the makings of a reationary person... It's said that most kids will develope their perosnalities by the time they are 5 years old so if all they hear is "no" then most of them will go thru life not taking risks and thinking "no" to new situations...

These are the same folks who wouldn't ride in cars when they came along, BTW...

The problem with reactionary thinking is that it is not at all "creative" or "flexible" and in some occasions downright dangerous becuase it does not allow the individual the survival skills needed to deal with unpredictable situations...

That's my take...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 09:35 AM

# An extreme conservative; an opponent of progress or liberalism
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# Reactionary (also reactionist) refers to any political or social movement or ideology that seeks a return to a previous state (the status quo ante). ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary

# One who is opposed to change; One who is very conservative; Opposed to change; urging a return to a previous state; Very conservative
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reactionary

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:02 PM

Has it become almost illegal to be the boy who told the truth about the Emperor and his clothes?

No, but thinking you are that boy is an almost certain sign of terminal self absorption. Before long someone is certain to intone "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." And think they are being profound.

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 04:41 PM

Sister.....If a right wing American wanted to use a term of abuse to you, it would be liberal, not "liberal"

A "liberal" is a reactionary masquerading as a liberal.

I note you term yourself "libertarian"......we possibly agree for the first time.   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:18 PM

A Poem : The Perfect Reactionary

As I was sitting in a chair
I knew the bottom wasn't there
Nor back nor legs. But there I sat
Ignoring little things like that.

(dick or susan)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:39 PM

Reaction is not thought. It's knee-jerk.

Children are important. It's not the sexualization that is bad, it's the attitudes about sex that is sick. Barbie is the pied-piper here.

Values have been co-opted by the "religious right" who are invariably wrong.

Real values put humanity back into sex. Behaving decently toward men and women, not by outlawing sex but by understanding what and why it is. It's an expression of love.

(stringsinger)

Subject: RE: BS: What is a Reactionary? Is it good/bad?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM

Frank and Dick/susan - you need to remember to reset your cookies...