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BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:49 PM "When any political group ones you like, ones you dont like use the power of music to dominate the media and bring about political change it hurts folk music in general." If you could back that up with evidence there would be something to discuss, unfortunately you just keep sharing your opinion. You fail to see that Seeger and the Smothers were NOT excluding the views of others. If you, as everyone else seems to have realized, that the Smother's Brothers and Seeger WERE offering an alternate view at a time when the media was highly slanted toward the right. You keep insisting that folk music should share both sides. It does. You only need to open your ears and evolve beyond the cocoon you've wrapped yourself in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:23 PM Geeziz Conrad.....Everybody and their grandmothers have tried to explain this to you but I think it best if you simply go find a mirror somewhere, stare intently at your image, and repeat the word "Bumblefuck" at least a thousand times. Perhaps then all will be clear.................. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM Just because you or we agree with a position does not mean that it should be the exclusive position projected by "the folk" however that is what seems to have happened. Unless someone comes forward with the encorporation of opposing viewpoints in these programmes or concerts. No matter what political persuasion and they are all persuasions rather than utopias- all political persuasions philosophies have flaws none are perfect not even ours- those who adopt them believe them to be right. Just like you believe that your views and the philosophies you support are correct and right. That does not mean that the world is not filled with other philosophies that may also be viaable. So if we get them all in the same room I dont think anyone will attack anyone else but at least each side gets heard out. If you never meet then you can never share or convince anyone. The philosophies I support all need help in practice and perhaps in basic constructs. To fill the media with one side is media abuse. Seger and all flew the banner of inclusion while excluding the political views of other philosophies and groups. That is unless someone comes forward to demonstrate how they were more open- in which case they were manipulative. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:58 PM Songs are songs- they don't kill anyone unless manipulated to do so. Propaganda songs express a particular viewpoint or ideology. And some ideologies advocate violence. With what some people think of as "leftist" propaganda songs, I don't blanketly accept any of them as expressing my viewpoint, save that I'm for promoting peace and I'm opposed to racial, economic, or any other kind of oppression. But I don't see those things as being "leftist." I see them as the position that any decent human being would take. I've heard Seeger sing labor songs and civil rights songs, but those, the labor songs in particular, are generally historical. And usually he sings only a few per concert. I've never actually heard the Smothers Brothers sing a political song. If they have, I've never heard it. I generally don't go to concerts or other performances where I know the singer is going to concentrate primarily on political or protest songs. And in my own concerts and performances, I rarely sing politically oriented songs; and I'm certainly not going to sing a song that advocates a political position I don't agree with. I don't believe this has cost me—or folk music in general—any fans. I don't think I've ever heard a fascist propaganda song, and I can't imagine what one might be like. There are, of course, things like marches and other militaristic music and a few songs like "The Horst Wessel Song," but nothing I can think of that could be considered "fascist folk music." Conrad, I don't think any genre of songs is "dominating the media" in any political way. So when it comes right down to it, it looks to me as if you're trying to promote a nonexistent category of songs. Can you give me some examples of fascist songs? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:51 PM Well Conrad right now far more popular than any folk music is Gansta Rap that talks about committing acts of violence and beating up women so you do already have what you are looking for ... just pull up any of those lyrics and have a look and listen ... For the 12 people outside of this site that listens to Pete anymore there are millions listening to the Gansta Rap folks ... so there ya go |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:09 PM don you are mixing up political ideologies with people who are simply thinking about them and crafting songs- songs dont kill people. And with one stream of political ideology coming from seeger smothers et al - simply manipulation at the exclusion of others I think maybe but no one has found the evidence yet. When any political group ones you like, ones you dont like use the power of music to dominate the media and bring about political change it hurts folk music in general. Songs are songs- they dont kill anyone unless manipulated to do so. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:10 PM I know you've called me a "liberal fascist" on occasion, Ake (which is, of course, an oxymoron and a total misuse of both terms), but the irony, as you see it, is. . . ? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: akenaton Date: 24 Mar 10 - 06:22 PM Now that is irony......LH take note |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:26 PM Little Hawk, I thought you were up on the history of World War II, but apparently you missed the important parts, including the things that led up to the fascist takeover of Italy and Germany and the oppression and government sponsored mass murder that followed. There is nothing like "hysterical overreaction" about my objections to what Conrad is saying. It's a sense of history and the knowledge of where the philosophical and political principles that he wants us to "tolerate"—in the name of freedom (!!)—can eventually lead when put into action. And to me (and apparently to many others on this thread), what Conrad is advocating is patently clear. And as to the last paragraph of your post just above, leave off with the armchair psychoanalysis, Little Hawk, your not very good at it. You totally misinterpret what I'm about, and you seem to be trying to denigrate me in the process. And as to your "colorless neutrality," thats been the theme of your long history of sitting in the lotus position on your mountaintop and saying "tsk tsk" when someone takes a strong moral or ethical position on some issue. Smug, superior, and above it all. You say (as you just have) that you feel strongly about a lot of issues, but when do you ever really speak out strongly about them? Are you afraid to get in there and argue your positions? Apparently so, because all I ever see is you sniping at those who have strong viewpoints and who state and defend them. And you will note that I'm not the only one who has remarked on this. #### Conrad, if you are aware, as you say you are, of the brutal excesses that took place under fascism—and are aware of the fact that this was a direct outgrowth of the kind of political ideology that spawn them—then tell my why you think we should be tolerant of—specifically—fascists? Fascism is directly inimical to individual freedom. I don't see how someone who claims to favor freedom can possibly be tolerant of a political ideology that states up front that the State is everything, and that individuals, rather than being free, must be subservient to it. Conrad—and Little Hawk—are you familiar with Martin Niemöller and the famous quote that is attributed to him? If not, I suggest you look it up. Don Firth P. S. Just in case anyone doesn't really understand what fascism is all about: Fascism . . . is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives and values.Why should we be tolerant an ideology that is directly opposed to democracy, individual freedom, diversity, freedom of conscience, and everything else that we hold as essential to living in a civilized world? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: katlaughing Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:44 PM The only way we ever ate, and still do, cornbread in our family is with butter and sugar on it. Brown sugar these days, but there is nothing better than to cup open a hot piece, dab on the butter and sugar then put the piece back together. Yummy! I heard from someone that it was a southern tradition to do that to baking powder biscuits which we also do. If it is, it came down from my dad's granddad from West VA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: pdq Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:29 PM That should be 1/4 cup white sugar, I believe. Other additives may include very small pieces of crisp-fried bacon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: DougR Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM I dunno, Spaw, sugar in cornbread? I guess it might work in Mexican Cornbread, but still, I dunno. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:10 PM "No one political view should be used to brand a genre of music or group." Why not? That makes it a genre in itself by definition. Conrad, you are twisting definitions to fit some sort of ideal that seems to be uniquely your own. You seem to feel that by having a protest song you are excluding the opposite point of view. The idea of freedom is to allow both to do whatever they choose. The idea of freedom is that you do not have to accept and you can fight that point of view. This occurs. It really seems you are building scenarios that do not exist just for the sake of creating an argument. Shame on you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: EBarnacle Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:56 AM You cannot send Pete an e-mail. He is, at least in that respect, a trog. He can be contacted by phone or letter. I believe the phone is an unlisted number. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Rapparee Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:25 AM If I buy a ticket to a concert by Pete Seeger, Tom and Dick Smothers, Joan Baez, and Tom Paxton I'm going to listen to them. When I recently went to a Solas concert, I went to listen to Solas. When I bought a ticket to a concert by Tommy Makem, a concert by the Clancys and Robbie O'Connell, to a PDQ Bach concert, I went to hear them. If I want to go to a concert called "Songs of Nazi Germany" I'll buy a ticket and go. It's called "Freedom of Choice" and I'm sick and tired of people telling me what I can or cannot do in the name of "diversity" and "political correctness." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:45 AM I am not a supporter of fascism, at all never was. I do however support a free society in which everyone has the freedom to play and create music, peacefully and express their opinions peacefully- all heads can be reared even the ugly ones. Just so they keep their hands to themselves and remain peaceful. How could anyone have a problem with that? From my conservative, relatively, position there are lots of things that I dont agree with fascism is one of them but I realize that my freedom is dependant upon the freedom extended to others. Don, I lived in Munich, I worked with the guys who were present when the camps were liberated the stories are terrible. I oppose it, that said the fascism you fear also understood the power of music. It was used to support their cause effectivly and was an important tool. They thought their point of view to be good just as the lefties of the 50s thought that their cause was good. No matter what the cause manipulation of the politics of the nation by the power of music is not helpful. To avoid this one would think that opening the stages and media to a wider range of political philosophy and diversity would help. We have to work keep music music rather than political mind control dominated by one point of view even if we believe that point of view to be right. Those who wish to move politics around can always go to political rallys. I am opposed to commercialism it has a right to exist but should be minimalized. Commercialism should serve FOLK MUSIC which should be a lifeway and not primairly a business. When it grows as a lifeway the commercial sector which assists it will also grow. No one political view should be used to brand a genre of music or group.All arab's arent terrorists, all folkies aren't lefties and we have to find out how branding happens and find a way to end it. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:12 AM I'm not exactly clear what the heck Conrad is advocating, Don....and, believe me, I've been trying to figure it out, but he seems to talk in circles. What I am questioning is your hysterical overreaction to him which appears to me to be verging on some kind of bizarre obsession. You seem to want to equate him, Conrad, with every form of fascist political evil you can dredge up out of past history, and I've no idea what basis you have for doing that. What exactly has Conrad said or done that terrifies you so? Your notion that I am showing colorless neutrality is laughable and utterly without foundation. ;-) It's hilarious. I keep hearing it from you and it indicates to me that you simply don't comprehend anything I say...or you're too impatient and intent upon your own arguments to bother even trying to understand what I'm driving at. What am I colorlessly neutral about when it comes to politics? I detest fascism, I always have despised it, I detest the Republicans, I am utterly against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan whether Bush pushes them or Obama does, I'd like to see the major USA banks that just got bailed out nationalized, and their boards of directors put in jail for defrauding the public. I'd like to see Bush and Cheney on trial as war criminals. You think I'm neutral? Ha! I'm about as neutral as Che Guevara, mister. I despise the political right and the goddamn corporations who engineer war and I long for the day of their utter demise. But I don't regard Conrad's confused ramblings on this forum as being important enough for anyone to get upset about. It's a tiny tempest in an even tinier teapot. I think you're emotionally addicted to fighting with a few specific individuals on this forum that you've identified as "one of THEM" (the evil people), Don, and that you achieve nothing by so doing except stressing yourself out, stressing others out, blowing off a lot of hot air, and creating longstanding and profitless feuds with a few people that can never be resolved and that won't achieve one useful thing in terms of human rights, free speech or anything else that actually matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: katlaughing Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:06 AM ...He could have done this. So not my problem his. I'll bet ol' Pete is sure gonna lose sleep over that! Criminey! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:23 AM guys, it is clear that nobody says this stuff. he is fucking with everyone and having fun . that is the only logic here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:05 AM maybe ya can drop old Pete an email explaining your position, do let us know how it goes, you can contact your folk clubs also. let us know how that goes also. we will wait to hear how ya made out |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:52 PM Jaysus, Little Hawk!! Conrad is advocating a philosophy and a world view that prevailed in much of Europe in the mid-twentieth century and engendered the atrocities that are shown in the pictures. Or if he is not advocating the philosophy itself, he is advocating that if it should rear its head again, we should not only tolerate it, we should welcome it in our social and musical circles. Would you like it if someone posted a bunch of pictures of child abuse and genocide here and then said, "This tells you all you need to know about Don Firth." ??? That, Little Hawk, doesn't deserve an answer. Once again, you cling to Dante's "colorless neutrality," no matter how much you try to deny it. You say you believe this, that, and the other thing, but then you criticize people who take a strong stand on important issues. Conrad, I believe in freedom, including the freedom to hold whatever views you want. But when you speak out in favor of a philosophy that advocates the kind of things that led to what is shown in the photos I linked to, then I feel it's my duty as a moral human being to speak out strongly against it. That's freedom. I have the freedom to criticize what you advocate. So don't you--or Little Hawk--try to muzzle me! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: artbrooks Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:50 PM I'm unclear on the meaning of your reference to "German nationalism". Pete Seegar is principally a post-WW2 individual, especially as far as him influence upon the American public is concerned - you aren't confusing him with Woody Guthrie, are you? It seems that your premise here is that every musician - and (by extension) every public figure - should see him/herself obligated to give equal time to the other point of view. That is, every minute that Pete spends (or ever spent) on a stage should be matched by another musician of equal talent and repute (sorry, but I can't think of one) at the same time, on the same stage. Alternately, he should sing songs espousing a viewpoint with which he disagrees, presumably with the same fervor and conviction. That would logically give us John McCain giving speeches praising the concept of health care reform or (more historically) Martin Luther King Jr. preaching the virtues of segregation. I think that your position is fatally flawed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:40 PM We need fewer performers, even though we do not have enough and more emphasis on singing and the real folk experience. I want to hear ordinary people on the radio and at festivals not performers who have money for unions and fly across the country. I believe that all desire their fair share and are worthy but we have to do something about the ordinary folk or folk in caps as you put it. I see only exclusion via branding and excessive profit taking. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:33 PM Conrad, you can keep swinging, but you are missing every pitch. Your ideals of what a performer should do with this so-called "balance" makes very little sense. You are looking for a debate, not a performance. Your idea of "diversify" has little merit and it is a problem in your eyes only. Keep at it though, your attempts to justify your position and reasoning make for good theater. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:05 PM Did he have to give the stage over to some right-wing country singer like Toby Keith to balance his program? Of course not. exactly! but he would have been doing a better job and more worthy of his sainthood if he opened the floor that he alone almost, possessed to others. This is what you do when you are confident of your position. Who cares let the audience decide if you are primarily interested in music. Seeger was primairly interested in using the power of music to support only one point of view. In this way he can not be separated from those who on the other side of issues who did the same. (german nationalism on and on) And he was successful. The possibility of someone doing the same thing on a from the bad or dark side is scarry. But if Seeger did it -that makes it right...No....the power folk music was simply used without competition for political purposes. That is never right. That makes his concerts political rallys hammering at one political view alone endlessly. Yes he did other things and yes he fought for good causes. But the fact that he manipulated the interest via music on behalf of one point of view is not good. I am sure that If he had been more balanced more inclusive the people would have made the right decisions anyway. So why not diversify access to media and stages? He could have done this. So not my problem his. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Stringsinger Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM This thread is appropriate to the music side of Mudcat. 1. Whenever music and politics are discussed, it seems stylish to separate the two as if there is a neutral position musicians are supposed to take. In fact, most artists have a political statement to make one way or at least a point of view in their music. There are never generally two sides taken at once. It can be argued that all artistic expression is political since it reflects the views of the artist. Pete always presented songs that did not necessarily reflect his views on humanity or politics. The Smothers Brothers were musical satirists not unlike those on SNL. 2.Pete has never staged a political rally in his concerts. He has played at rallies for unions, and some political organizations but his concerts were not rallies. It is not censorship to exclude songs that don't reflect your political or personal point of view. With this logic, any religious songs could be construed as censorship also. If one is looking for a "fair and balanced" approach to a point of view from any artist, this is in vain. Was Pete a leftist? Of course. Did he have to give the stage over to some right-wing country singer like Toby Keith to balance his program? Of course not. 3. A folksinger/writer can do both concerts and political rallies. They are not the same. Pete has appealed to a broad spectrum of audiences because he has not conducted political rallies as concerts. Many artists are political organizers but they do so without necessarily turning their concerts into rallies. 4. The documentary showed Pete's ability to think through ideas and carefully assess them. All "politicos" can't be painted with the same brush. The idea that the folk revival was manipulated by political activism sounds like the criticism given by the John Birch Society, The Anti-Communist Christian Crusade and Joseph McCarthy. Folk music is absent from television now because it had been co-opted by the commercial music industry and they squeezed the last drop of profit from it. In the days of the folk revival, not every other college kid carried a guitar. There were many who didn't know much about folk music or cared little. Folk music is not any bigger than it was because it is not a product of popular music. The political ideologies require a specific definition. Not all Lefties thought alike. The Kremlin did not hand down edicts to American folkies. This is simply not true although it has been used as a pretext to intimidate those who were deemed subversive in music. The Beatles were attacked as anti-American by these vicious Bircher groups. (Check "Rhythm, Riots and Revolution" put out by them). There was never a real monolithic set of political ideas by early Leftists. Woody Guthrie himself was thrown out of the Communist Party for being too radical. Pete had left the Party a long time ago. Burl Ives was a leftist for a while until he was attacked for his views. Josh White was threatened by the FBI. There were a lot of lefties that had different ideas. Some were anarchists, socialists, communists, and there were differences in the ideas that encompassed these categories. Nothing has gone wrong. The popular music industry dropped the stereotypical image of folk music in its marketing campaign because it relies on trends that change from decade to decade. In essence, it has nothing to do with real folk music. It is true that the Left was responsible in many ways for the folk revival but not in any doctrinaire or systemic way. It was an outgrowth of the time that culminated in the 60's. The Popular Front of the 30's and early 40's was pretty much universally accepted in the US until the cold war manipulations by demagogues of McCarthy's ilk. So WWW what went wrong? More than politics though. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Rapparee Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM Would they? Or were they, like prostitution, simply ignored and assumed to be "for the best"? Oscar Wilde certainly had an alternative lifestyle, and his "boyfriend", Lord Alfred Douglas, wasn't the nicest person. All of Whitechapel, New York's Five Points, San Francisco's Tenderloin...they were alternate lifestyles. So were the Shaker Communities, Amana, and other such places. Even the Wobblies, the WCTU and the suffrage movement were alternative lifestyles. So what else is new? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:18 PM remember also that many things we find in our society today - alternative lifestyles, alternative moralities public behaviours would have been thought terrible by our ancestors only a few generations back. The question is how do we use music to get them to talk to one another rather than to be hostile and keep them apart. You dont think all voices can sing in the choir....Sad! Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:18 PM Why in the world should I connect any of that stuff with Conrad, Don? I thought you would provide links to things he himself has said. Instead you provide links to pictures of violent things a great number of other people, both living and dead, have done, implying that Conrad is for all those things. WTF is that about??? How does it in any way implicate Conrad? Would you like it if someone posted a bunch of pictures of child abuse and genocide here and then said, "This tells you all you need to know about Don Firth." ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 06:16 PM So don I dont hold such views but you seem to be afraid to let people choose what views to hold thats called freedom- I guess freedom is for you what you appreciate |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Don Firth Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:48 PM To those who think some of us are being a bit hard on Conrad and his viewpoint: I think you need to take a look at these pictures. It might give you a clue as to why a lot of people here don't take kindly to what Conrad is peddling. If you still don't understand, then I'm afraid your moral compass has lost its needle. You see, we've been here before, and these are a few of the things that happened: THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And all thought by THESE folks to be making the world a better place. Conrad might like THIS. It's the cover of a piece of music from Germany in the 1930s. The title means something like "Hail to the Chief." The above are images from over half a century ago. Caused a lot of problems. Millions—many millions—of people wound up dead. The following images are from today: THIS. And THIS. And THIS. And THIS. Who do you suppose is THIS young man's hero? If THIS doesn't give you cold chills, turn your stomach, and/or make you very angry, then as a human being, I would say that they may as well put a tag on your toe, throw a sheet over you, and close the drawer. Because morally speaking, to all intents and purposes, you're dead. In The Inferno, Dante had a few things to say about people like that. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:32 PM "there are more love songs than any other type. Should they always be balanced with hate songs?" Abso-fuckin'-LUTELY!!! ;-) Of course! Let's have equal time for hate songs. Consider, for example, this great hate song by Howling Eddie Cranshow: Scum Are Only Scum! ( a mild protest song) I play in all the street fairs I fiddle and I hum With my gitbox and fiddle Which clearly pleases some It pleases all the old folk And it pleases homeless bums But the ones it doesn't please Are the bloody fecking scum! Because scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! Scum are fecking losers Scum are stupid sods If I could get me hands on them I'd give 'em all the rod I'd punch their ugly faces I'd call 'em nasty names I'd tell 'em all to go to hell I'd set 'em all aflame Because scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! Scum are stupid useless gits Scum are bloody fools They stand on other people's toes They break Queensberry's rules They will not share a bit of bread They don't respect the poor They eat in fancy restaurants And act like bloody boors Because scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! Don't dare to come around near me If you're a bleedin' scum For if you do I'll take my shoe And plant it up your bum! You might think that I'm helpless You'll find I'm bloody not! I'll box your ears and black your eyes You rotten scummy sot! Because scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! I wish these rotten scum would die And leave good folks alone They poison every public place 'Cause they're got hearts of stone Their lifestyle is contemptible Their manners are obscene They've all got little beady eyes And their tongues are coated green! Yes, scum are only scum They're ugly and they're daft They know they're only scum Without artistic craft They're rotten stinking bleeders Who all should get the shaft! Yes, scum are rotten scum They're rotten fecking scum Let's toss 'em in the Channel And provide no bloody raft! Howling Eddie Cranshaw, Folkways of East Anglia 2009 The above dialectic appears to be aimed primarily at "upper class twits" and the like, people who are roundly despised by Howling Eddie, a man who is proud of his humble working class roots and not afraid to drop his aitches in polite company... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 23 Mar 10 - 05:04 PM I think I said in a prior post, anyone is free to write any song they wish and perform any genre of song they wish in a free country. Now if anyone else finds it interesting fine for them. But trying to tell people how it should be with music is like trying to put a size 12 foot in a size 6 sneaker. It won't ever fit ... There is not 1 side only in music, there is music people want to hear or enjoy and music they don't want to hear ... if what you are saying was of any appeal to anyone then it would be performed written and played ... but for the 5 or so people who many want to hear it ... no folk club wants to undertake that and lose patrons ... my take anyway, but you are sure most welcome to your own opinion. Music is a matter of taste. ME I don't like rap music, I am on record for that, but then, rappers don't like my old country either ... and that is fine actually. I would say, write your songs or sing whatever you want ... If someone wants to listen ... that is ok with me ... but you cannot force people into a box on music ... it doesn't work that way ... Anyway I wish you only good things |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: katlaughing Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM ...capitol letter folk.. What? Do you mean like yourself? So I guess the music of the civil rights movement such as We Shall Overcome, War, Blowin' in the Wind, etc. didn't change anyone's mind, huh? And, where is it that someone, in this country can adhere to folk music only? Unless they are living in an isolated enclave there is no way they can escape the rest of the world and its music. Also, the days of Hating Hippies, cutting off their hair, etc. are long gone...they were only a small part of that era, the rest were actually doing things like marching, going to jail for their beliefs, aiding young men who didn't want to be cannon fodder...those people are now in in the mainstream, by and large, even if they do still love/sing folk music, and I don't hear any negative BS about hippies, etc. But then, I am living in puir ol' isolated Coloradah, agin, wadda I know? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: akenaton Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:30 PM Stick your cornbread and molasses!.....Bannocks n' heather honey fur right trolls!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:25 PM Scottland.......Its up the road in Columbus, the farm that's Scott's calls Scottland where they test their grass seeds and Weed-N-Feed and the like. I had no idea they had such a tradition of music......... Seriously Conrad.......Fess up. You were dropped on your head as a kid weren't you? Or has your brain mushed out from the CO emissions from those P.O.S. artcars that you drive? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:19 PM Sorry Conrad, you are entitled to an opinion - but that does not mean you are correct. If the music and audience wants to change, it will. Folk music is what it is. People accept what they want. If there is an outcry for the type of music you request, it will come. Right now, the songs deal with issues that apparently make you uncomfortable. Fortunately, the world will keep spinning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:09 PM We could have more capitol letter folk as the type referred to by the person from scottland above but for the manipulation of the market place and political brand that it received. As a result of political branding folkies are perceived as lefty and when that turns a significant number of people off who are not now perceiving "flower children, lefty, druggy hippies" in a positive light not only the market suffers but folk music at large fails to achieve what it could had the brand not been put in place. No people are not automotons however if the only political view they hear through folk music is from leftys what else are they going to do. If they wanted to stick with folk music that was their only choice. Cultivation of a wide range of folk politico alternatives would solve this problem and help maintain and develop audience. We will only create more of a capitol letter folk when we broaden the perception of the community and genre to include diversity and that goes for all the political issues. Don't call it censoring call it diversification. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: John P Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM I think there are more love songs than any other type. Should they always be balanced with hate songs? Should churches be asked to include satanic music in equal amounts with the hymns? Maybe we should ask every classical concert promoter to include a few country western songs in each program? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: akenaton Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM We in Scotland, are lucky to have traditional music, which is for the most part non-political in the modern sense. Its all about love, life, sorrow and happiness.......from the time when these things meant something tangible, when people still had a little feeling left in their souls. Nothing to do with commercialism, self promotion, or stuffing your pissy little opinions down other peoples throats Pete Seeger, Billy Bragg, et al....they make me fuckin laugh. Ego's on legs.....Folk music never changed anybody's political opinions, but It can make us all feel what it's like to be alive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: katlaughing Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:50 PM So as the issues came along into the ears went the only thing that was available and out came then your community. Lefty single side single issue folks. Behold the power of folk music a phrase seeger used a few times in the documentary. Conrad, you make it sound as though we were all automatons led on by the "Pied Piper-Seeger"...no brains of our own to even discern anything different OR to have our own agendas based on our upbringing, education, and experiences. I grew up in the late 50s-through the 60s. First and foremost what was influential in my life, music-wise, was that of my family, musicians all, which included MANY genres including cowboy, big band, classical, folk and trad., jazz, my parent's favs, i.e. Arthur Godfrey, etc. Then, when I was 8 we got a tv and I heard even more "folk" on the Andy Griffith show and others, only a bit later on the Smothers Brothers' as well as Ed Sullivan who didn't have any discernible agenda as far as I was concerned...just great variety even while he was considered, among some, as a kind of figure to poke fun at BUT had good music regardless...first to have the Beatles, etc. There were also fun variety shows which offered a...well, a variety. There was so much music, from so many different avenues, there was no chance of a brainwashing you seem to assume took over us all. Which, in my case is kind of funny as I suppose you could find a way to claim I was completely brainwashed growing up with only one tv station available and in the wild, isolated Rocky Mtn. West. Remember that old adage, "when one assumes it makes an ass of you and me." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM I have to admit that I get a warm glow in my heart whenever I imagine John Wayne getting his ass kicked by a bunch of little Asians wearing black pajamas.... ;-) (There's nothing wrong with that, is there?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Rapparee Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:40 PM But then again, as Gary Larson wrote, "Suppose they gave a war and EVERYBODY came?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:40 PM Thank you Ron! Well done! And Hawk.......Hey....He LOVES the attention. And I've always been willing to give it to him! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: catspaw49 Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM You start from some extremely questionable premises then traverse across the slippery slopes of poor logic to arrive at a a laughable destination. Truly one of your best efforts there! Here's a typical Coradism relating back to my last post: "......and media flavored folk music in a particularly lefty, civil rights way (nothing wrong with those issues)..... I just love it when you demonstrate my points for me so quickly. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:34 PM "RON OLESKO: If you can translate Conrad's latest, I can't wait to hear your take." My take is that Conrad is using his own opinion to define "folk music" and not recognizing that the music that grew out of the folk revival is not FOLK MUSIC with capital letters, but rather a type of folk music that represents a very specific community and era. It also has commercial roots, and we could really go off on a tangent as to whether or not it is a true genre of "folk music". I also think he is failing to recognize that the right wing music he is seeking exists in other forms and genres. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:31 PM Okay, Spaw, I get your drift... ;-) I can certainly see how much fun you are having every time Conrad launches a thread. Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to bother him. Maybe he enjoys the attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM The receptivity of the sounds, feelings styles of folk music was created by the environment- many many factors. People were ready to adopt something that provided those feelings to them. When all of the above mentioned back country inspired and foreign inspired music turned up it was therefore popular because the qualities it possessed were the qualities that the ears of the next generation looked for. Many of those who were in possession of the stages and media flavored folk music in a particularly lefty, civil rights way (nothing wrong with those issues) they could do it because they were in power- just like every group in power can set the tone. These folks provided only one channel most of the time to a receptive population. When the major issues developed they were in command of the ears and went full steam ahead- their concerts no different than any other political rally or propaganda event. The question is did they lock out the opposing view because of their possession of the media and the stages and power of music? Anything folk would have been ok for the audiences the essential qualities were there. Seeger did play stuff that was not political however whenever the songs were political they were one flavor. Of course when the issues came up civil rights, war etc....those fed the single political line naturally followed but more importantly the entire gnere was branded. yes issues come and go however, folk music has to find a more efficient pathway through them so that it does not have to be frequently be knocked down and revived. The way forward is balance and welcoming of all sides even if you have to work to invite them and bring them all together. If you believe your issues are correct you will not mind sharing the stage and the media. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: olddude Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:26 PM when i was a kid my dad would say as soon as you figure out life isn't fair the better prepared you will be for adulthood. he was right as usual, most of the musicians on this site are better than 90% of the commercial offerings today imho it sure isn't fair they get no recognition, but it is life |
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Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right? From: Bettynh Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:04 PM Conrad, I have to again wonder how old you are. The recordings of the Carter family and other early local musicians had a huge influence as well. Pete Seeger was joined by Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Doc Watson, and a flood of others who capitalized on that early music. Not to mention what happened when it influenced English musicians with skiffle. Pete's audience has always been tiny compared to Elvis's. Audiences are self-selecting, aren't they? The Dixie Chicks' audience changed dramatically a few years ago, primarily because of "those with the power of the media and the stages." They have a huge audience now. And it's not Republican. So I guess the real question is: What is folk music? |
