May the best song win

Subject: May the best song win.....
From: Johnny J
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:22 AM

Is it truly possible to judge a new song outwith the context of its performance?
Do professional and/or accomplished performers have an unfair advantage in competitions?

Please discuss.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Bert
Date: 22 May 10 - 10:00 AM

A song IS its performance. Without the performance it is just lyrics and score.

Professional and/or accomplished performers do have a distinct advantage, I wouldn't say it was unfair though.

If you are going to perform a song in a competition you had better learn to perform. If you are a beginner or don't have too good a voice, or if you don't play very well, then you MUST learn to connect with the audience. Pick someone and make eye contact. Don't get stuck on the same person all the time though look at different members of the audience. Sing TO the audience. Don't put on a fake style no matter how much you like Dylan. CONNECT and be honest with the audience.

If you really suck at the guitar, or whatever, then put the bloody thing down and sing acapella, it will emphasize your connection with the audience.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: michaelr
Date: 22 May 10 - 11:41 AM

By "outwith" do you mean "without"?

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Johnny J
Date: 22 May 10 - 01:12 PM

Dearie me, apparently it's not a correct word (Old Scottish, I believe)according to most English dictionaries but I used it to mean "outside" or "separate from".........

"Without" might be used too but the meaning would be slightly different to what I was trying to convey.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 10 - 01:36 PM

The advantage of accomplished performers is not unfair if that's what is being judged in the contest.

We would say "apart from" the context of performance.

The merit of a song, after all, is limited by what can be done with it in performing it.


A

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: BobKnight
Date: 22 May 10 - 01:49 PM

A crap song is a crap song JJ, but a good performer can enhance it. I presume this query is brought about by the recent Edinburgh Folk Club songwriting contest? :)

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 May 10 - 02:08 PM

It`d be difficult to `judge` the quality of a song were the whole thing sung off-key.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 23 May 10 - 02:31 AM

It's wonderful to be able to write brilliant songs and perform them well. But it's fairly rare. I'd like to see songwriters really work at their craft/art--and instead of worrying about becoming entertainers, facilitate the process of getting great performers/singers (who may not write their own songs or may be mediocre songwriters) to perform them.

That way we may become more discriminating about the songs we allow to pollute the universe. Let's face it--buy any cd by any singer-songwriter, and the vast majority of songs are second rate.

How much great poetry might have been lost if the quality of the work was judged on well the poet read it aloud?

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 May 10 - 03:54 AM

I wrote a song in 2005 for the "Write a Lincolnshire Folk Song " competition. I asked a lady I knew who is not professional but is very talented at performing to sing it for me... She took it to second place in the competition... My performance could not have done that and I wonder if a professional could have done any better...... Sorry about the quality of the sound as it was taken from an old cassette tape but this is the song.
Ross Trawlers Return

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Marje
Date: 23 May 10 - 04:12 AM

It's interesting to note that many of the greatest song writers in other musical styles were just that - song writers. Even Carole King wrote songs for others to sing, and was known for that before she became successful as a singer. It can be argued that the standard of songs in pop music began to slide when too many performers started doing self-indulgent songs that they'd written themselves.

Of course there are artistes who are brilliant at both composition and performance (Lennon and McCartney, Ewan MacColl, Joni Mitchell, Dylan) but they're the exception rather than the rule. There are plenty of professional singers on the folk circuit who sing their own songs, but in many cases the reputation of the singer relies just one or two of their songs that are truly memorable. (I'm not belittling that: I'd love to have the talent to write one really excellent song that I'd be remembered for).

The truth - as I think Larry is implying -is that most self-penned songs are so mediocre that no one but the composer would want to sing them. If someone else can take the song and interpret it their own way, and it still sounds good, then you're at least some of the way to writing a good song.

So if you're judging songs rather than performances, maybe the way to do it is to have one singer, or a panel of, say, three singers, to whom all the songs could be assigned for the competition. That way all the songs would be treated equally, by professional singers who knew their craft, and the audience/judges would not be put off by a poor singer ruining a good song, or blinded by the talents of a brilliant one singing a dull song.

Marje

Marje

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 May 10 - 05:37 AM

Johnny J: Dearie me, apparently it's not a correct word (Old Scottish, I believe)according to most English dictionaries but I used it to mean "outside" or "separate from".........

"Without" might be used too but the meaning would be slightly different to what I was trying to convey.

I would have used "outwith" in that context too. I don't think it's particularly Scottish, though, as I've used it and heard it used in England fairly often over the last few decades.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 10 - 09:13 AM

In theory a song should be judged soley on its merits...

In reality, a bad song performed well will get higher marks than a good song performed poorly...

That's life... Presentation is everything... Okay, maybe not everything but very important...

B~

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 May 10 - 09:31 AM

"In reality, a bad song performed well will get higher marks than a good song performed poorly..."

Yes, I think I'd agree with that. From the thread title, it does seem that Johnny J IS talking about song-writing competitions.
In some competitions it is stated that the the judges NOT judging the performance. But if the song is perfomed competently and confidently, and with conviction, it must surely help.

In the recent Edinburgh competition, the top three places were taken by very well-performed songs, and the top two had a degree of musical arrangement with instruments other than the usual combination of solo voice and guitar. This certainly enhanced the overall feel, but if anything, made it less likely that one would pay full attention to the lyrics. However, I made myself listen to the lyrics, and they were also very good, and it seems it was the lyrics which "sold" the third placed song to the judges.

As a songwriter myself, I would sometimes appreciate a bit more feedback about what was thought of any song I have entered, tho' I would not necessarily want the judges to go through each one publicly.

At another club I go to, the competition is decided entirely on an audience vote, and somewhat amazingly you CAN vote for yourself, tho' I would never do this.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Bert
Date: 23 May 10 - 09:38 AM

The original post didn't mention who wrote the song. I don't see that it has anything to do with singer/songwriters.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:28 PM

Hmmm. This thread was closed, and I don't know why. I reopened it.
Sorry for the confusion.
Usually, when recent threads are closed, there's an obvious reason or there's a note of explanation. If there isn't, please contact me.
The same thing happened with another thread last week, and I have no idea why it happened. Could be a technical glitch, too.
-Joe-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Bert
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:27 PM

So that's where it went!

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: breezy
Date: 26 May 10 - 03:53 AM

Hi Georgian

How about posting the lyrics

Jane has a wonderful way with songs that take them to that level where you want to listen

You were right in giving her the gift of your writing talents

I dont write, all the best

Funny how noone has posted a comment

Is that when Blanksie did O K? I Like his graffiti

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 May 10 - 06:55 AM

Lyrics as requested breezy. Best wishes, Mike.

                Ross Trawlers Return.

On Ladysmith Road, in the Port of Grimsby,
There lived my Ma my two brothers and me.
Life could be so hard and for ma lonely,
With my Da fishing out in the North Sea.

My Ma was so sweet and so very caring,
Our home was neat in the highest degree.
She made so much and from so very little,
Clean and well fed we would always be.

I oft looked out o'er that deep dark ocean,
I oft surveyed the wild and rolling sea.
I hoped and prayed "Ross" Renown and Rodney,
Would bring my father, safe home to me.(repeat line)

He was so long out upon the ocean,
So oft in danger but always bearing strong.
I missed his voice, his kind smile and company,
In my young eyes he could do no wrong.(repeat line)

Some other ships sought my Da for working,
They all had heard of his great expertise.
A man of the sea and yet an artist,
His paintings hung in our local gallery.

Ross Fisheries gone gone, I am so much older,
I still look out and gaze far across the foam.
And thank the Lord each time I've witnessed,
Those great "Ross" trawlers coming safely back home.(repeat twice)


Mike Hill.
(21st August 04)(c)

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:17 AM

Yes, good song, but maybe a bit of thread drift here from the general discussion topic started by Johnny J. My own comments, while mentioning a certain recent competition, were intended to be very general and just illustrate the point about about how important or not the performance may be to how well any song does in a competition.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: breezy
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:19 AM

Bless you Mike, thank you, I shall now go and listen again.

Keep up with the polishing !!

Should I ever get round to it would you mind if were to sing it out and share it with others?

J

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:25 AM

Breezy it would be an honour...... thank you. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: breezy
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:28 AM

Bloody hell , must be hormonal, where's the tissues.

I suppose watching Trawlers Rigs on T V etc didnt help.

This is a good song brilliantly sung, so glad to have discovered it.

thanks again


She is a bit good

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: breezy
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:44 AM

Has Jane Kitchen recorded it ?

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:05 AM

Georgiansilver:

(Sorry for Thread Drift!)

It might interest you to know that some of those great Ross trawlers are still around.

I had some interest in them since my dad had a fish and chip shop in Bradford while I was growing up and we'd sometimes go down to Grimsby or Hull, sometimes with his wholesaler, but sometimes just to look. There were particular boats that my dad preferred his fish to come from...don't ask me why!

However, when I started to work in the oil industry on seismic vessels, around 1980, I was surprised to find that I recognised one of the vessels in my (Norwegian) company's fleet. The "Malene Ostervold" had previously been the "Ross Intrepid", which I recognised from early teen visits to Grimsby.

She was taken out of service in the 90s but in the last couple of years has been re-rigged, again as a seismic research vessel, still called the "Malene Ostervold". The brochure phot is a bit small, but you can still recognise the classic Cochrane "Ross" style lines under all that seismic "top hamper":

Malene Ostervold Brochure

Still going strong after 45 years! TBH, she was always a lousy sea boat and isn't much better now they've added a stability tank.

Hope thjis is of interest!

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 May 10 - 12:04 PM

It sure is. I googled Ross Trawlers and have ascertained some of the history of the company and trawlers but failed to find what happened to the fleet when they disbanded. Thanks for that. The song was actually written for Jane from information provided by her on her childhood... with a bit of artistic (if you can call it that) ..licence.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 26 May 10 - 01:40 PM

It's BANKSY, not Blanksie!!!!

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 May 10 - 01:46 PM

Suegorgeous... he's referring to John Blanks! Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: breezy
Date: 26 May 10 - 04:30 PM

X

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 May 10 - 06:07 AM

Mike (sorry for continued Hijack):

Quite a number of Ross trawlers became survey vessels. Either oceanographic, geotechnical or seismic.

The Ross Illustrious became the Oceanic Rover then the Seaway Rover. In 2008 she was sold to Peacegate Oil in Lagos Nigeria and is now called the Seaway Agbamu.

I can probably dig out several more when I get the time. Most of the seismic vessels around until the mid 1980s were trawler conversions rather than purpose-built. I sailed on probably 12 trawler conversions (mostly Longvaatrawl or J. Marr) from 1979 to 1983 before I got my first purpose-built berth: luxury...your own cabin with ensuite facilities instead of hot-bedding it in an 8-man cabin, or at best a 2-berth job just a bit wider than the bunk. I'll ask around on the Facebook "Seismic" group for anyone with a subsequent knowledge of Ross conversions.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 May 10 - 11:13 AM

That's really thoughtful of you Rob... good finding out these things. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 May 10 - 07:51 PM

So is it drifting or trawling we're talking about now?
(sorry, couldn't resist that! :-) )

Subject: RE: May the best song win.....
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 May 10 - 07:58 PM

The net result is the same.