so many consonants in a row esp. in songs

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:11 PM

Well said, Marje.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:33 PM

thunderstruck

You could argue that the 'e' isn't even prounounced. That gives us drstr

You can sing this to the tune of 'Lollipop.' I believe that was one of Patience & Prudence's greatest hits.

Thunderstruck, thunderstruck, oh thunder, thunderstruck...

Then when you get to the verses, compose something about his truck. I could, but I don't have the time.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:20 PM

To return, briefly, to the Welsh - if it's in the OED it should also come provided with its own phonetics.
I made the point some time back that it's part of the job and skill of a songwriter to write songs that are singable. And if you have people in a choir (church or otherwise) who are challenged by (a) reading or (b) pronunciation then there's a good case for choosing the songs or hymns with greater care and possibly providing phonetic assistance to enable everyone to participate. I don't think, though, that there's any case at all for altering a language to suit the needs of those individuals! (And what kind of song includes the word "catchphrase", anyway?!)
I also made the point, as have others, that we don't usually pronounce words exactly as they're written in any case, and that's part of the learning process for anyone acquiring language skills. That's not only true of English in all Anglophone countries but also true of other languages. I took part in a workshop last year on singing some Easter songs in Welsh - part of the process was learning to pronounce the words, as well as learning the melody and the harmonies.   I knew the rules of Welsh pronunciation, but there were times when there were variations to suit the melody. It was hard work, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:58 PM

We have a popular cartoon called 'Dilbert.' There's a lazy guy named Wally in the strip, and recently Wally was the focal point for a day. He was in a meeting, and the boss asked him for a report on work he'd done. Of course Wally hadn't done any work.

Wally jerks upright and thinks to himself "Time to disagree with an argument that hasn't been raised!"

And that's what a number of people are doing here - arguing with a point that hasn't been raised. Namely, nobody has argued that we should (or could) alter the entire English language. This thread is about altering lyrics to suit the people who are going to sing them.

It's also about having fun by submitting catchphrases which are also mouthfuls.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:52 AM

I don't want to turn this thread in the direction of the long and over-debated discussion on the rights and wrongs of singing from song sheets, but surely, after a few times of singing, people should be familiar with the sound of the words and the song sheet should become more of a crib sheet. So clumps of consonants should have less effect as the song becomes more well known.

If the song is being sung for the first time, could it be that people are unfamiliar with the tune, even if they can read all the words, and may not sing out as you hoped? If it is a borrowed tune, do the new words fit as well as the lyricist thinks? Do some words, which by chance happen to have clumps of consonants, have a rather clumsy fit with the melody.

I know several good musicians who say that they can't sing. Perhaps the Chinese pianist who won't sing along is embarrassed about his/her voice or is just concentrating on playing the piano.

Thinking about these things, I don't think that clumps of consonants play such a big part.


DC

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 10:21 AM

You're not Lutheran, I'd wager. We don't sing things a few times. Lutherans are expected to handle a vast quantity of music, to be able (almost) to sight read, and to sing songs they've never heard before. Getting the lyrics is taken for granted.

My husband, a Catholic, came home from choir after several years and said "I'm beginning to think that someday I will be able to look at a line of notes and figure out how the music is supposed to go."

I told him that someday he might qualify to become a Lutheran.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:43 AM

Uncle dave said
it seems to me that Y is always a vowel sound,

as in yonder yellow yacht ?

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM

Tug the Cox:

That's exactly right. Each of those Ys is a brief ee sound, fading into the following vowel.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM

In other words another semivowel.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:31 PM

Medial and final 'y's are always vowels, ( i) and (ee).
The frontal y is not a vowel, as the air passage is constricted.
from the guide to English pronunciation...consonants

y"
        

emulate yes senior you
        

The "y" sound that leads into a vowel.

It leads into, but isn't, a vowel.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:47 PM

That's interesting Dave. I never thought of y as an ee sound before.

I once read a book about English which claimed that r could be a semivowel too. I think there's something in that.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:39 AM

It doesn't have to be many consonants. Every Christmas I am unsure whether the people around me are going to sing 'Cherubim' with a hard or soft 'Ch'. My classics teacher always insisted on 'kerubim'

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:25 AM

I have problems with the 'ch' sound - People often think I have said I am alergic to some types of trees instead of some types of cheese! I usualy overcome it by saying sheese instead but I didn't spot one which led to a good mondegreen. On singing 'Skipper Jan Rebek' some years back (In a pub in Wales oddly enough) someone asked why said skipper was 'King of the fighting ducks'. He should be king of the fighting Dutch of course:-)

I am happier with the German or Scottish version of church as well! Anyway, back to consistants and bowels...

Cheers (Shears?)

DeG

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Marje
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM

I don't think I've ever heard "Kerubim" before. It's the plural of "Cherub", which no one pronounces with a K sound in English. My dictionary says it's a "ch" sound.
I think your classics teacher is getting mixed up with Italian pronunciation (e.g. Cherubini), but Cherub(im) is a Hebrew word.

"Y" is easily heard as an "ee" sound when it's the final letter, e.g. in words like ivy, ready, slowly, etc. At the beginning of a word it generally functions as a consonant.

"R" and "L" are both classified as "liquid" sounds, which can sometimes be almost vowels - or almost omitted - and at other times are very distinct consonants. It's all to do with where they come in the sequence of sounds (and to some extent the accent of the speaker).

Marje

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:41 AM

""R" and "L" are both classified as "liquid" sounds, which can sometimes be almost vowels "

As in the Yorkshire joke:

Q: What's t'most common owl?
A: Teat-owl

I'l get me coat.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 AM

Cherub(im) is a Hebrew word.

But there is no "ch" sound in Hebrew. It would be a hard "kh" as in "loch" or "Sprechen Sie deutsch?"

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:20 AM

English 'ch' being spelt more appropriately 'tsch' in German.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: 3'Shift
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 04:30 AM

I am a very minimal French speaker who loves traditional Cajun and likes Québécois stuff, and even if one can read music/French I imagine almost anyone has to learn most of that repertoire by listening to those who know it. Every language elides much more than its speakers realize, and most of them have dialects that are precious near incomprehensible to them who only know the standard.

My personal solution is that when I hit a bunch of nasty consonants together in a French phrase I just swallow the "excess" ones and keep the beat. (When I have a look to see what the Cajuns did with it, sonofagun, that's just what they already did. All you have to do is exile a large Anglophone community to somewhere that'll keep us isolated, deprived & so busy surviving that we have no time, money or use for formal education, and in a couple hundred years we'll produce your phonetic neo-standard English for you.) OK, now you French Purists, Cajun Nationalists, whoever, go ahead & jump me ... ;)   

And we Americans are fairly stubborn about the way we feel like pronouncing some things - How many people do you know who say "Expresso" when the written word, right in front of them, is plainly (& more simply) "Espresso"? And how many people call the second month "Febuary" although they've seen it with two "R"s on a calendar their life long?

BTW, I think the Hebrew equates to "Keruvim".

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:55 AM

Cherub & seraph, both lovely words for angels, with multiple vaild plurals. Cherubs & seraphs, cherubim & seraphim, cherubin & seraphin.

Just thought I'd throw that into the mix!

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM

part of folk process is getting rid of these lumpy, unsingable clumps of consonant.

er --- a little aliterative allegory is allowable in all jovial jokey juxtapositional lexicographical lyrics.

Surely............
{:-)}}}



I know I know - that's easy for me to say.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Marje
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM

Go on then Red, set it to music!

Marje

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Cool Beans
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:08 PM

I've always liked the word phenolphthalein, ever since I saw it at a dentist's office and noticed its five consonants in a row. I have never tried to use it in a song.

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:20 PM

CB: But (in English) four of them are silent!

Subject: RE: so many consonants in a row esp. in songs
From: Tangledwood
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:10 PM

phenolphthalein, - I have never tried to use it in a song.

So how do you identify acid rock?