BS: The return of competitive Jousting

Subject: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:54 AM

Well don't this beat all. Full contact jousting - broken bones and all - is coming back as an extreme sport.

I belive I'll just watch. I hope these men and women have insurance that will cover it. Anyone tempted to try it?


New York Times Magazine article

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:01 AM

This COULD be above the line - I Know the Song !! Joust a Song at Twilight !!

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:29 AM

Obviously no shortage of lunatics out there. What's next? Bear baiting?

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:18 AM

At least one of the passes shown in the video on the first page showed what in ancient times would have been considered a foul of sorts, or at least a sort of craven move. I don't know what the term was then, but I heard it called "a sweep".

Instead of aiming at the opponent's chest, or shield, or head, the jouster turns the tip of his lance farther left of the opponent's body, not trying for a direct blow but a lance-sideways impact, which is difficult or impossible to avoid. The object is to brush the opponent off his horse.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 10:50 AM

Which leaves the opponent free to use his sword to disable the horse, causing it to dump the rider and the opponent to slip a miserecorde between the armor plates or the visor.

How far are they going to take this?

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:31 PM

QUOTE
"I want to see another guy get paralyzed," a boy in front of me squealed, waving a toy sword.
UNQUOTE

Nucking Futters....

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:07 PM

QUOTE:
""I like violent sports," says Andrews, who also participates in mixed martial arts. "I like hitting you. I like getting hit. I like competing man to man to see who the better man is that day.""
UNQUOTE

Testosterone has a lot to answer for.

(I have a cartoon of two male Bighorn sheep knocking heads on a mountainside, as two female sheep watch... One of the females says to the other... "It's a guy thing.")

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:16 PM

A real fight is over in less than a minute, with one guy dead or very badly hurt. The "better man" walks away from one, preferably before it starts -- and the "best man" doesn't let it start at all.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 12:11 AM

"not trying for a direct blow but a lance-sideways impact, which is difficult or impossible to avoid. The object is to brush the opponent off his horse."

And this is where the European's Balsa lance tips are much safer, they will shatter.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: MMario
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:14 AM

The no holds barred jousting is just STUPID.

I can see people objecting to the completly scripted, choreographed and staged "jousts" - which often *LOOK* faked, as well as being faked.
The European style (which is essentially what is used at many ren-faires - but with added flexible scripting for the DIALOG - not the results) combines the authenticity which makes it a sport not "stage combat" with reasonable safety precautions. It's still a rough sport; and it is the rare jouster who hasn't experienced bruises, strains, sprains, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:53 AM

Testosterone has a lot to answer for.

Perhaps, but stupidity has more.

Way past time that stupidity was criminalized so these eejits could be locked up as a danger to themselves and others.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: bubblyrat
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM

Tony Curtis was very good at it ......

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:32 AM

"Way past time that stupidity was criminalized so these eejits could be locked up ..."

Iffn you go criminalizing stupidity, you'd better be ready to triple the number of prisons.....

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 01:45 PM

Darwin at work!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 01:56 PM

You know, it wasn't smart in the Middle Ages and it's not smart now. How about if we have these idiots go up against a square of pikemen? or longbowmen? Let's make it REAL and spread caltrops on the field, or a bunch of pits. And a friese of stakes! Yeah! Let's give them the REAL stuff! We could reinstate trial by combat for these dips and let them have at each other!

Me? I prefer Hank Morgan's solution to Sir Sagramore if I have to do anything nasty at all.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 02:13 PM

Anybody see the movie version (1944) of Shakespeare's "Henry V?"

French knights, heavily armored (had to be lifted onto their horses with a crane) charging across a large field toward a line of English bowmen (tights, leather jerkins). Music builds! Finally, at a predetermined point, the bowmen release their arrows. A great flight of missiles all soaring abreast upward, then arcing down...

Then the arrows and the knights met.

Chaos and a great crashing sound, like thousands of galvanized roofs collapsing.

Then, English soldiers armed with daggers dashed out to dispach the French knights who were still alive, lying like turtles on their backs, weighed down by their heavy armor.

Trumpets! Colorful banners snapping in the wind....

Glorious! Appalling!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 03:53 PM

I think we should let them get on with it, in authentic armour, preferably in very hot weather. They'll broil within the armour and some will suffocate when they fall off. After a few of these accidental deaths there'll be fewer idiots wanting to participate, and those who do can probably be spared from the gene pool anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 06:47 PM

And let them use steel-pointed lances, and once down they have to continue the fight on foot. In armor.

I'm sorry for the horses.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 06:58 PM

Darwin at work!!

Only if they manage to kill each other off before they breed.

Modern society has been short-circuiting natural selection for far too long - with predictable and obvious results.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 08:04 PM

"French knights, heavily armored (had to be lifted onto their horses with a crane)"

This is very theatrical (1944), but unfortunately historically wrong - it was only the very late period jousting armour, not war armour that was this heavy. Also jousting armour was heavier in the front side. For most of history, a fit knight was expected to get in the saddle for war with minimal assistance (you CAN actually vault from the ground unassisted into the saddle with chain (you can get very fit training for years wearing an extra 40 pounds - ask the Marines!), but surprisingly GOOD plate is not much heavier). Jousting became more popular as actual war in armour became less common - windlass crossbows could get thru plate, and when gunpowder weapons became more efficient, the interest in lugging around massive weight which was useless anyway faded. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 09:18 PM

Having watched (at fairly close quarters) two guys in armour with Steel swords (AND other Lethal Devices) performing a Choreographed hand to hand combat , and knowing the lads fairly well . and having some idea of the preparation to make it 'LOOK' like the real thing , any Amateur who thinks it would be fun is a NUTTER !!

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:00 PM

A bit of theatrical license in the movie.

A couple of years ago, I saw a television program on several centuries of arms and armor, and it covered various kinds of battle armor, from chain mail (circa Crusades) through armor a few centuries later.One fellow on the show, kitted out in a full suit of plate armor, said that the weight seemed well-distributed and although it was considerably more cumbersome that a sweat-suit, it didn't really feel all that heavy to wear. In fact, he demonstrated by running, doing a couple of somersaults and other acrobatics, and vaulting a waist-high fence.

Excerpt from an article on historical armor:

While it looks heavy, a full plate armor set could be as light as only 20 kg (45 pounds) if well made of tempered steel. This is less than the weight of modern combat gear of an infantry soldier (usually 25 to 35 kg), and the weight is more evenly distributed. The weight was so well spread over the body that a fit man could run, or jump into his saddle. Modern re-enactment activity has proven it is even possible to swim in armor, though it is difficult. It is possible for a fit and trained man in armor to run after and catch an unarmored archer, as witnessed in re-enactment combat.

The notion that it was necessary to lift a fully armed knight onto his horse with the help of pulleys is a myth originating in Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. (And, in fact, the mere existence of plate armor during King Arthur's era is a myth as well: 6th century knights would have worn mail instead. [So the armor worn in the movie Excalber was bogus.—DF)   Even knights in enormously heavy jousting armor were not winched onto their horses. This type of "sporting" armor was meant only for ceremonial jousting matches and its design was deliberately made extremely thick to protect the wearer from severe accidents, such as the one which caused the death of King Henry II of France/

Tournament armor is always heavier, clumsier and more protective than combat armor. The rationale is that nobody wants to get killed in a game, but on battlefield the question is about life and death, and mobility and endurance is a more important aspect of combat survival than direct protection. Therefore combat armor is a compromise between protection and mobility, while tournament armor merely stresses protection on cost of mobility.

And as far as arrows were concerned, armor protected from glancing arrows, a fairly direct hit would penetrate the armor. A bolt from a crossbow definitely would.

Pierre Terrail LeVieux, seigneur de Bayard (1473 – 1524)—The Chevalier Bayard—("Without fear and without reproach"), considered to be the perfect embodiment of chivalry and the last of the "Knights in Shining Armor," was was wearing full battle armor when he was killed on April 30th, 1524 by a ball from an arquebus (the immediate predecessor of the musket) fired by a foot soldier.

That pretty well ended the wearing of full suits of battle armor.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:20 PM

"armor protected from glancing arrows"

An English (or Welsh!) Longbow could have a pull of up to 100 pounds with a draw length of about a cloth yard - that's a lot of kinetic energy! and fitted with armour piercing points was lethal against plate at quite a distance (if square on) - (and at 45 degree elevation, you get quite a range!) - it is recorded that such an arrow could pierce armour and 'staple' a guy to his horse at quite some range....

Hand drawn crossbows can only pull so hard - and the draw length was shorter - but when you have mechanical assistance, which culminated in ratcheted windlasses, you cold easily get as much power as from a longbow with considerably less strength training. Of course such Roman weapons could easily send a 6 foot long spear thru someone, armour or not ...

Chain was intended for glancing sword blows - a mace - mass weapon - inertial crushing impact - or axe - (largely mass crushing impact) would not be pleasant. Two handed swords could cut thru also.

The best way to avoid injury from a blow is to not be there .... :-)

Having knitted chain, and worn it, I can say that since it distributes over one's body, and was bound at waist and arm points, it is easy to train up - even modern Marines/SAS guys carry more weight.

"That pretty well ended the wearing of full suits of battle armor."

But they still LOOK cool ... and NASA researched just how well the joints worked when designing space suits. Anatomy hasn't changed.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Tangledwood
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:29 PM

Darwin at work!!

Only if they manage to kill each other off before they breed.

Modern society has been short-circuiting natural selection for far too long - with predictable and obvious results.

It appears that some young males regard combat in some form as a necessary rite of passage. If it is inevitable anyway isn't it so much better to let them go for it with willing opponents rather than in a car out on the highway against an unknowing target?

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:11 PM

I'd give a quarter to see a match between Obama and Speaker Pelosi. Winner takes on the majority leader.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 12:07 PM

autopsy on a jouster

what he looked like

They left out the spiderweb tattoo on his neck.

Subject: RE: BS: The return of competitive Jousting
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 03:10 PM

Ah! But there is nothing there that indicates that the Stirling warrior was a jouster.

Warrior, most definitely. But from the kinds of wounds and scars he had, it's pretty obvious that he spend a fair chunk of his presumably twenty-five years hackin' and hewin'—and being hacked and hewed upon—but barring a broken off lance point buried in his left lung or something of that nature (and even that could have been received in open battle rather than in the lists), there is no real evidence that he received his lumps jousting in tournaments.

Don Firth

P. S. I've seen (on television) the skull of a medieval knight that had nearly been cut in two. The cut was more or less horizontal, slightly below his eyes, and went as far back as his mastoid bones. He'd obviously been struck on the bridge of the nose with a heavy broadsword or battle-axe. The commontator said that had it not been for his fairly stout helmet, the blow might have taken the top of his head completely off. The commentator also remarked that the wound may not have been instantly fatal because nothing immediately vital (such as his brain or spinal chord) had been destroyed. But he probably choked to death on his own blood.

Lovely. . . .