BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Alan Day
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:23 PM

There is a Red Deer preservation Society that cull deer to control the herds. Near to here we have Ashdown Forest where there is a huge deer population. I suppose that many create car crashes ,but in a 40 mile an hour zone you should see the speed that the cars travel at ,with no thought that a deer may suddenly leap out into the road. A mother and her foal did that to me about two weeks ago ,I respect the speed limit and they were not injured.
The killing of this magnificent stag "The Emperor" sickens me .
I hope the killer is named and shamed
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:05 PM

A couple of points - apparently his meat would be on the tough side. For eating, younger deer would be selected.

Secondly, the land ownership issue. Is Exmoor divided up into different ownerships? So he could have been safe if on someone else's land, not marked off with fences?

I camped down there once, on the Quantocks. And when I went to leave, the stag hunt had closed off the main road between Minehead and the south so I couldn't get out. An elderly lady in a tweed jacket, on a horse, looking like a Thelwell cartoon, flagged down a lorry going north, and held him up, and anything behind him. My presence behind her was not acknowledged at any point. Her horse though getting on to the verge might be a good idea, and I thought she was letting me by, so started up the car. I know it was the horse's idea, because she pulled it back onto the road. I would have been going away from the hunt - I knew where they were going, because the followers had all turned up outside the campsite, lined up for a good view. Funny how the followers always know where the prey is going to go, isn't it?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:53 PM

The four killed in the helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains in Co Down, Northern Ireland on Saturday were all close friends of Prince Charles, they were in Ireland on a stag shooting trip.
And your point is? You seem to be an odd sort; rabidly pro-Tory, anti-immigration and borderline racist, yet not prepared to kow-tow to your 'betters'. A colour sergeant's bloody nightmare.
It must be so very confusing being Richie Black.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM

If you don't cull then the older stags essentially die of starvation. Which is all very natural, I suppose, but probably not very nice for the stags.
As Emma says, there are no natural predators for deer in the UK, yet, land boundaries are finite. In the wild deer will migrate long distances to find pasture when the herd size increases, but it's not so easy in the UK (that, by the way, is why you see all those deer signs by motorways) so the only thing that regulates herd size is culling.
Most culling is carried out by professional stalkers, but 'trophy' beasts - those with reasonable antlers - attract a premium and the rights to shoot them are sold. The money that someone will pay to shoot a trophy stag will pay for a lot of husbandry and conservation on the estate. You can argue until the cows come home about the mentality of someone who wants to shoot a trophy stag, but it seems daft not to capitalise on the value of the sport for the betterment of the estate.
As for shooting during the rut; that's not usually done, and I wouldn't be in favour of it, but we don't know the full circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:37 PM

The four killed in the helicopter crash in the Mourne Mountains in Co Down, Northern Ireland on Saturday were all close friends of Prince Charles, they were in Ireland on a stag shooting trip.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:27 PM

the West of Scotland is infested with these sad bastards, from England, Denmark and Germany mainly...a very few Scots among them.

There is something quite sickening about killing animals for fun, something that harks back to the Roman circuses. I just cant understand it, some say it is to make up for sexual deficiencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:12 PM

Emperor was a famous stag. Thus, he is worth far more to some.

I expect that the first story about him, a week or so ago sealed his death warrant, because some little shite read that and thought...."Aha!"

Everything these days has a 'sale' value..and Emperor had become a Celebrity Deer. More's the pity. Had the media not flagged him up in the first place, then who knows, he may well have still been alive today.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:10 PM

I don't know whether culling is a necessary thing or whether it is sometimes just a guise for slaughter. But there is surely a world of difference between the sensible management of deer herds, and someone seeking permission to shoot any living thing, for no other reason than the "satisfaction" of killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:08 PM

If I wish to go elk (stag) hunting here in Idaho I have literally hundreds of thousands of public acres on which to do it. Granted, the hunting is managed but I can pick which Game Management Areas I wish to use. As long as I stay within the law -- the limitations on how many I can take, have them checked by Fish and Game, etc. -- I'm pretty much free. The same goes for fishing -- else I catch a sturgeon, and then I can't even remove it from the water for catch-and-release but have to keep it IN the water while taking out the hook.

Folks here -- well, "visitors" so far -- have killed elk and only taken the head. Do that -- Idaho has a law about "wasting the meat of game animals." Those that have been caught are heavily fined, lose all hunting privileges (and we have reciprocity with surrounding states!), and have a choice of community service or jail time.

If you kill an animal you should eat it or see that the meat goes to "Hunters For The Hungry" or a similar organization. Otherwise you're a subhuman killer.

And if you have an overabundance of a certain species, as many places here in the States have with whitetail deer, shoot the does. The bucks don't have the babies and the meat is just as good.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 03:01 PM

It's a fair point Greg...

I can understand shooting animals that may have been mortally wounded in fights during the rut. That would be humane. But I would have thought killing healthy males/females in the breeding season was both counterproductive to conservation and stupid.

The report on the BBC this evening said tht somone hadseen men loading the beast into a vehicle in the dark. Would that mean this hapless beast was shot in the night with all the technology that would entail? Nightsights hardly seem fair or skillful in such hunting surely?

Anyone know more about this?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:51 PM

Well, I was brought up on Exmoor where I ran as free as this stag did. I would just like to say that I would have taken it very unkindly if someone had shot me, especially in the rutting season. Especially if it was by some rich trophy hunter from London or Taunton or some other furrin parts.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM

Before I go any further let me state I am not in agreement about what has gone on with this deer but I am taking it in context with the other 300.000 deer that are 'culled' each year ostensibly on conservation grounds. This deer was one in 300,000, magnificent though he was, and he may have been coming toward the end of his mighty reign due to his age. None of that makes it right.

We recently had a thread where humane slaughter of animals for meat was talked about a great deal. In some ways venison could actually be seen as likely to be more humane in its making than beef, lamb or pork. Imagine if you will, grazing the grass peacefully when BANG! and down you end. Dead. They say a good marksman can kill a deer outright with a single shot to the heart. No herding up, shoved into wagons, petrified journeys to a slaughterhouse... BANG! dropped in the fields you lived in. If it is true about the single shot and it always being done in the wild then could it not be more humane? I would take the advices of those who live in the country to tellme if this is the case.

The ethics of selling the death of an animal for a trophy seems quite wrong. In the case of a deer I presume most of the meat is used for consumption so it's not just about the trophy?

In short I have extremely mixed feelings on this subject. If they cold not have shooting rights woud we have so much extensive country left on which these animals and other game can breed? I know I would likely feel better off not having been born if I was raised simply for the sport of a marksman's bullet. Countryfolk say that many of these animals get a chance to escape. I have no idea how true that is. They also say that usually it is the weak, the injured and the infirm that are culled. This was not the case here was it?

It's all so mixed up emotions for sure. Magnificent beast, living his life as evolution intended (I am not saying evolution has intent!), shot down dead for a trophy. All we can hope maybe is that his death will now serve to better those lives of other deer?

In reality, sold as a trophy or not, our herds of deer face this end all over the country. If it is wrong for one it is wrong for all.

Quite whether he was the most magnificent animal in England depends on how we define magnificent. Many other animals fit the adjective depnding on your own personal definitions. What is good to see is so many here on Mudcat displaying their sense of feeling on the subject

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:23 PM

I think this might have been going to be Emperor's last successful rut (some other very large stags possibly his offspring have been noted) and maybe next year or the year after culling would have been merciful, but it is surely most unsporting to shoot during the rut. I'd be very upset myself if shot while on the job!

I tend to agree with Sugarfoot Jack above in both respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:13 PM

It is a fact that deer are shot in large numbers all over Britain; with little or no predation the deer population is only limited by food and culling is a normal (some would say essential) part of deer management in the UK today.

This is usually carried out in a very low key way by stalkers who have an interest in improving the herd; they will intimately know their herd and will select specific animals (those who advancing age leave vulnerable to starvation etc) to remove to maintain viable numbers and the balance of deer in the area
In such culls the stalkers are legally required to use firearms and ammunition of an appropriate calibre for the species

It seems that the Emperor was a dominant stag still in his prime, not yet on any list for culling due to old age and, although it may be possible to construct an argument that his dominant position was ultimately not good for the gene pool of the herd, it seems that his slaughter was purely as a 'trophy' animal

The UK system of land ownership and game laws means that landowners have free rein to kill permitted species on their own land – or sell those right to others!

Sensible 'management' is not the same as commercial greed

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:57 PM

There was a bloke on the news saying the stag had to be killed cos its teeth were getting worn out. seems a pity, doesn't it?

I suppose if it were put in a deer park you could regulate its diet and find it easier things to eat.

There are lots of little deer round here in Dorset, and lots of people shoot them. in fact some local people don't believe in buying meat - given all the deer and rabbits that are around.

I think they look very nice (the rabbits and the deer) and I wouldn't fancy shooting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Stu
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:37 PM

I posted this on the woodlands thread this morning, after having a post deleted last night:


(No posts were deleted from that thread:be sure to double-check after posting]

Exmoor Emperor Dead.

I'm re-posting this link because some kindly US mudelf seems to have deleted my original post (which, I admit was a bit of a rant but I certainly do not apologise). It was a rant because this story made me really angry and is relevant to this thread because it shows what we're up against, why where this animal was shot is important and the inherent class prejudice that underlies the Tories move to sell this land. Rich licensed hunters killing the largest single wild animal on the Island so he can stick it's head on his wall. The same people

Now, US mudelves listen up and try to understand: there is a profound difference in the wildlife biotas of our countries and the hunting that occurs in and of them. The huge majority of our country is cultivated land and that which isn't is generally upland which exists in National Parks (most often not wild ones like yours) and private land owned by rich people. The private land owned by rich people was taken, for the most part from our ancestors by the acts of enclosure or, if you're a highland Scot, forcibly in the clearances by rich Scottish nobles in collusion with the British government who wanted to break the Clans once and for all (the Jacobite rebellion was still in their minds). That and, of course, pure greed.

These acts of theft were both performed under the guise of 'economic reform', as the current act of selling of our forests and woodlands will be. Much of the vast area upland stolen from the people is now used for hunting; rich people paying for the privilege of blasting the shit out of animals for sport. Now, I don't object to hunting per se and as long as everyone eats what they kill and what they kill is not endangered then fine and dandy - I'll have a brace of pheasants for the pot myself, plus as in the US many normal people go out to bag a bird or rabbit for dinner and I would defend that right to the death. Many red deer (elk to our US brothers and sisters) are shot as part of managed culls - fine too. But much of the land is closed to ordinary people, and the rich landowners object to open access of our own countryside because it would affect the shooting for their rich customers, and the killing of the Exmoor Emperor signifies the contempt these tosspots (not a swearword - see Thomas Hardy etc) hold our common heritage in, and those of us not lucky enough to be stuffed to the gunnels with cash. They don't want the proles on their land, full stop.

In the UK we live with an increasing sense of distance from the land, which many of our ancestors have occupied for thousands of years - we have an innate sense we belong to the land and that the land is our common treasury which belongs to all who live on our Island. Whether people's families have lived here for one or a thousand years irrelevant in a sense; the feeling of belonging to a land is massively important to our wellbeing. We are losing that connection, and to many ordinary people (especially those in urban populations) any connection to the land they live on is an alien concept altogether. For every big stag killed like this, for every bit of woodland sold, that link gets even weaker and we become lesser people for it. We become more alienated, more angry and more spiritually bewildered and confused. We turn to more instant methods of gratifying this deep yearning to be part of the whole, and that gratification, in whatever form it takes, is ultimately hollow and transient and nothing more than a distraction.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 01:24 PM

I saw the 'Emperor' in a photo when another poster flagged up the killing. Now I'm for individuals who wish to, taking responsibility for getting their own meat for the pot or whatever, but there was something decidedly 'ominous' (as regarding an Omen) in the look of this 'royal' beast. I was certainly struck by the killing of this stag at some level hard to describe in any event.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:41 PM

(I have eaten black bear... disguised in lasagna. The bear had perpetrated repeat house break-ins outside Fairbanks, Alaska.)

It's sad to lose this fellow in his prime.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:37 PM

Had something similar in Edinburgh two weeks ago. A fishmongers had in its window what they said was the largest lobster to have been taken from the Forth in forty years, and they were auctioning it. And I rather doubt the winner was going to put it back.

Lobsters live for decades, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:32 PM

And kat, you're spot on...what a fucking bastard!   It was only the other day we were all reading about this fella, how he was being hailed as the biggest, most beautiful stag in the country...I guess someone else read it too and thought they'd 'have a bit of fun' and gain a spot of notoriety.

This will come back to the two people concerned...


I was listening to dear Carla Lane earlier on, on BBC Radio Devon, sounding so distressed and utterly befuddled as to why anyone would want to do this..

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Zen
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:31 PM

Appalling and sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:30 PM

This deer will come back to haunt him, in many ways...

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:19 PM

We have "Sportsmen" who kill black bears. I's a macho thing; they are not fit to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:16 PM

I hope the meat is so tough he can't cut the friggin' gravy!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 12:07 PM

The poor (SO often) seem to have the attitude - "Its a nice day lets go out and Vandalise something"

The Rich (TOO often) say "Its a nice day lets go out and KILL something"

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 11:08 AM

Fucking bastards. May the head fall off the wall and cause a fatal injury to the idiot who did this.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 10:20 AM

Sickening, this beautiful animal had a right to life. Hard to believe that an individual will no doubt share a brandy or two with a few friends over Christmas and point up to it's head mounted on his wall and boast about what he done. I do hope nature treats him accordingly in the years ahead.

I don't care if it is a fox, badger, stag or stout they have a right to live on this land as much as we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:59 AM

The story on BBC

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM

Be the rights & wrongs of hunting, shooting, &c as they may, I was most distressed & appalled to read the account of this in the paper this morning.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:50 AM

Is there any way I can claim the right to shoot the individual that did it? Or would that be too humane?

BTW., IMO the stag belonged to itself, not to the nation or to any individual. Nobody had the right to shoot it.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:45 AM

It's a case of, ' I can therefore I will, ' morals or ethics are not taken into consideration by such people, I find this very offensive.

Dave H

Subject: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:06 AM

I just heard on the news that someone paid someone else for the right to shoot and kill the most magnificent animal in England, a giant Red Deer stag at approx 9 feet tall.

Surely that animal roaming wild on Exmoor belonged to the entire nation, how can anyone claim the right to sell it to be shot?