BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:28 AM

What I hear (in general, present company excepted--I wouldn't stoop to personal attacks or be so rude as to accuse anyone here of preaching bullshit) is lots of violent, intolerant, hate-filled rhetoric from the left advocating suppression and/or violence against conservatives at the same time as accusing conservatives of advocating violence on national media--although they're unable to actually give any examples of conservatives advocating violence on national media. And then they give their solution which is that the conservatives on TV should be silenced or shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:40 AM

What people need to understand is the guy makes a living saying things that are over the top. There are dozens of them on TV talk radio ... they get paid to fire people all up. Is it right ... hell no ... what I do ... is I don't listen to any of them . I sure wish others would do the same, then, there would be no TV show or RAdio show

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:43 AM

specifics please, Taconius.

You can read above what *I* found (part of it) showing conservative incitement. I CAN show you lots more...in detail.
WHERE do you find "...violent, intolerant, hate-filled rhetoric from the left advocating suppression and/or violence against conservatives ..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:50 AM

The other thing about these people is the Rabbi also has the right to free speech and the right to complain loud and hard about something he feels is wrong. I am not going to censure anyone. Nor do I want anyone to try and censure me either. They can say anything they want with the understanding that networks and radio owners will pay the price via boycotts for shows that do such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:51 AM

You're right, old dude. In today's society many pundits and politicians (of all partisan stripes) make their careers by getting people all fired up. Actually it's nothing new; the words firebrand, rabble-rouser, demagogue, muckraker, agitator—they're not new words. After WWII we seemed to have learned the evils of scapegoating (blaming single crimes on the influence of groups we don't like) and it became less common… for a while. Now it's back, with a vengeance. Literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM

I've looked at what you posted above, Bill D., and they include lots of accusations of Glenn Beck advocating violence, and links to websites that accuse Glenn Beck of advocating violence, recordings of Beck railing against the policies of others, etc., but no actual, specific examples of actually advocating violence. But among Democrat politicians and leftist media personalities, advocation of violence is much easier to find:

During GWB's convention speech, Craig Kilborn, a CBS talk-show host, showed him on the screen with the words "SNIPERS WANTED."

There was even a movie made about an imagined assassination of President Bush. No one on the left who are screaming about "right wing rhetoric" today thought there was anything wrong with making that movie.

In 2004, Democrat Barry Seltzer was arrested for attempting to run down Rep. Katherine Harris (R-Fla.) with a car. He told police he was simply "exercising [his] political expression" when he drove his car at Harris and several supporters, swerving at the last minute.

In 2006, when Bill Maher joked with John Kerry that instead of taking his wife to Vermont for her birthday he could have taken her to New Hampshire (where the primary was) and "killed two birds with one stone." John Kerry joked back, "Or I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone."

In 2006, New York comptroller, Alan Hevesi, the Democrat comptroller from New York, was telling graduating students at Queens College how much he and other Democrats despised GWB. He said that his fellow Democrat, Sen. Charles Schumer, would "put a bullet between the president's eyes if he could get away with it."

In 2008, "political comedian" Sandra Bernhard "joked" that if Sarah Palin ever visited New York she would be "gang-raped by my big black brothers."

Check out this lovely piece of leftist light-hearted anti-Palin "mother I'd love to punch" art.

Three months ago, in October 2010, Democrat Representative from Pennsylvania Paul Kanjorski, talking about Republican Rick Scott, said that "instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him."

"He is an enemy of the country, in my opinion. Cheney is an enemy of the country....Lord, take him to the Promised Land, will you? See, I don't even wish the guy goes to Hell, I just want to get him the hell out of here." - Ed Schultz, MSNBC

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 12:56 PM

but no actual, specific examples of [Beck] actually advocating violence

Get your eyes & ears checked by qualified medical personnell, Tac.

None so blind as them as refuse to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:04 PM

Ol'ster...

If I saw someone poison a barrel of water that the local Boy Scouts were getting ready to take on a camping trip that I was supposed to be watching and was asked by the Scout Master if everything was fine and said "Yup, everything fine" then, if we use your logic, then everything would be just hunky doorey in yer book... I mean, some folks have very bad intentions and they use their mouths to propagate misinformation that is harmful...

But, I guess if we are going to use your and Taco's logic then I can purdy much say whatever I want, whenever I want, regardless of everyone's safety or the validity of the factual information in what I say???

Hmmmmmmmm??? Think you need to rethink that position...

Bill D is absolutely correct and guess what??? Contrary to Taco's suggestion Bill made his points without lieing, without threatening anyone and with a high level of civility...

It's just righties hate being wrong and when they are called on it rather than examine their wrongness they attack the one who pointed out their wrongness???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:26 PM

Greg, Bobert, now you're resorting to sarcastic ad hominem put-downs of those who disagree with you instead of addressing the issues themselves. I've tried "discussing" issues before with posters who do that, and I'm not interested in taking part.

You hate Glenn Beck. Right, we got it.

Bye bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:41 PM

999... "Until such time as he is shot, he will continue to spew hatred and bullshit."

Judging by subsequent posts, I must be missing something. That post does not call for shooting anyone.

In any case, I didn't read much further and I don't care to do so. Have fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:07 PM

Hey, ya know how it is. Folks think what they want. As a person, I did march in anti-war marches, open housing marches and others. I took a few beatings in the name of pacifism.

I was on the street when the riots took place at Sir George Williams University in Montreal. I was being peaceful, and cop raised a night stick to me. I gave him a strike in the plexus with a rolled up newspaper. Guess what: he didn`t hit me. I don`t think gratuitous violence is in anyone`s best interest. However, the minute someone raises his hand to me, my response is not violence--it`s self-defense.

When trash like Beck, Robertson, Palin, Coulter (and others) speak as they do, they are not worthy of arguing against. Their currency is violence. Pay them in kind.

I have heard the adage that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves everyone blind and toothless. It`s crap when people say that because they seldom mean their eye or tooth should be the first to go.
Philosophy is easy. Facts are hard. Sorry, but if I gotta go, I`ll do so taking some sonuvabitch with me. And, I don`t really care who agrees or disagrees with me. They can go be pacifistic with rabid animals. Not this old boy.

Best regards to you, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:07 PM

Beck is the madman depicted in that movie "Network" where the anchor man who learns he is going to be fired, goes on the air for his last broadcast claiming he was going to commit suicide on the air and instead starts ranting and cursing and suddenly the ratings shoot sky high. The network that was all set to can him now don't dare remove him.

Everyday he comes to the studio--more dirty, ragged, decrepit and crazy than the last time and rants and raves against this, that and the other. The audience loves it and keeps tuning in--many of them doing whatever crazy thing he tells them to do and then calling into the station asking what he wants them to do next.

The protagonist fights with the network execs that this man is sick and clearly needs to be hospitalized but the execs won't even consider it. He's knocking out the competition in that time slot.

The grim humor being that when the newsman was sane, rational and delivering the news in a professionl manner, people stopped watching him so that the network decides to can him but now that he's a raving lunatic with nothing sane to say anymore, the viewers just can't get enough of him. Lunacy sells and it sells big.

What's funny is that this movie came out long before RW nutjobs came on the air and took over the ratings spewing lunacy and conspiracy crap. Yet the movie perfectly predicted that this was where television was headed and demonstrated how and why it was inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:16 PM

I recently read a facet of vitriolic speech that hadn't occurred to me before. Oh, of course, I knew that presidents have speechwriters but...

Russell Baker, in an H.L. Mencken book review, wrote:

"In today's jargon, Mencken, eloquently proclaiming views certain to offends so many, would be called a 'polarizing' figure. Whereas, today's polarizers, however, are professional well-poisoners who spend vast sums for opinion polls to determine how best to inflame the masses for poliical advantage. Mencken did the trick by simply writing what was on his mind."

These inflamers and inciters may not even be telling us what they themselves think and believe, they may simply be pushing calculated buttons by spouting rhetoric that they know will arouse the passions of angry, fearful people.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:19 PM

I don't hate Beck, Taco- but I DO hate the ignorant fools that believe him and the jackasses who defend him.

Beck by himself can't do shit- its his acolytes. Like yourself, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:05 PM

Bobster
Naw I am just saying a turd is a turd, they put these guys on and pay them so much money to fire off their poison, that is what they get paid to do. The best thing to do is turn the channel and complain formally like the Rabbi is doing to those that employ them and the advertisers on the show. I tell ya what, if enough people bitch at the advertisers on these shows, they won't be there cause it is all about the ad dollars that keep them going. They do have the right to say crap. Others have the right to tell their advertisers that "I am not going to buy your product since you seem to support a guy like Beck or _____" whoever. Believe me it gets their attention

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:13 PM

Who would have thought however that saying over the top things and berating others one could earn so much money. Ever read how much they pay these guys. don't matter, I would never do it, drug dealers make a lot of money also but something is so very wrong with America that guys like these (I am talking all parties and a host of them) get paid to spread hate, half truths, and deception.   Sad I think. What the hell ever happened to reasonable debate. Well reasonable debate I guess has no entertainment value.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:26 PM

By the way sooner or later a nut ball is going to forget that these TV and radio shows are shock value entertainment, that is why they are there, and is going to do something because one of these guys called for it on their TV show. Then, the lawsuits afterwords and the criminal investigation afterwords will make the point better than our ramblings. Remember when Sally Jesse Raphael setup that gay guy and his straight friend and the guy got killed. She was sued and the show was gone. She also ended up in criminal court yada yada. Sadly it will probably take something like that. But as long as the advertisers get their big bucks from pitching their products on such a "hit" TV or radio show nothing will change and it will get worse. If people say hell no I won't buy your product, then you make a difference. Problem is, getting enough people to do that

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:53 PM

Folks ain`t gonna give up their TVs, Dan.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:13 PM

Old Dude wrote:
What the hell ever happened to reasonable debate. Well reasonable debate I guess has no entertainment value.

Total agreement, dude! Remember when there was real debate on TV with no name-calling, when left and right was Dick Cavett and William F. Buckley? That was back when reasoned discourse and civil debate were still valued. Now it's all name-calling, guilt by association, and emotionalism.

And online, trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:26 PM

4 hours out shopping, and I seem to be way behind.

Taconius: Craig Kilborn was stupid.. (although that was not 'recent') and I hope they didn't give him any more airtime after that. (I sure haven't heard from him recently)

You mention a couple of Democratic politicians doing stupid things. I hope they were voted out if those acts were documented, but it does show that you CAN find stupid, hateful behavior in individuals in ANY group.

The only semi-serious situations you mention (which I missed) are the stupid joking by Maher/Kerry...and that was 4 years ago, and evidently a one-time slip....and the remark by Ed Schultz, which I'd have to see in context to decide its 'flavor'. Ed does wave his arms a bit, but I seldom hear him make overt remarks that come close to what that 'might' be.

Now.... while I totally agree that provocative speech is to be decried, no matter who does it, it is only the right, such AS Beck & Limbaugh & O'Reilley & Hannity who are paid millions to do it night after night on mainstream TV. THIS is the big issue...and I already said... twice, I believe... that I KNOW that Beck wouldn't last if he made clear, direct threats... so why do you and John keep requiring me to document some? The point is that Beck does, night after night, distort, prevaricate and inflame with provocative rhetoric which is **different in kind** from the admittedly 'biased' language most of the middle-to-left pundits use! (And one aspect of **different in kind** is constant appeal to Conservative Christian 'values'...suggesting that "God is on OUR side".) Almost ALL the shrillest right-wing extremism of the past election used **God** to promote and underwrite their views. I have the feeling that were they to get a significant majority, the 1st Amendment would get an interesting re-interpretation.....one 'freedom' the right-wing seems to cherish is their presumed 'freedom' to harass and intimidate everyone else... based on their notion that waving a Bible is sufficient validation.


................anyway, *I* am reluctant to deny anyone
freedom of speech, but I sure do resent a network like Fox hiring and supporting the extremist views they do. It makes money, but...sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:12 PM

naw Bruce, lets say Budweiser Beer puts an ad on a Beck show or one of the others, a simple email to the companies "contact us" website that says .. ya know what, I am gonna stop buying your beer since you seem to buy into this name calling entertainment like Beck and __ and ___ .. that will get their attention. Every consumer letter is read and stored and reponded to, i know I created enough Call center applications ... that is all I am saying, voice the outrage towards the people who advertise on the shows and that can make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:17 PM

Here's the problem, Taco...

No one is attacking you here... Yeah, they might attack yer ideas and yer arguments but that's all I have read so lighten up 'cause playin' the "ad hominem" card when there ain't any of it going on won't win you any debating points...

Now, Ol-ster...

It's the old argument about yelling fire in a crowded theater... I mean, there are limitations on free speech... There have been documented cases where people were fired up by Beck and gone out and used violence.... Might of fact there are a couple links in this thread to those incidents...

In the military you are taught to obey regardless of the orders... The military isn't democracy... You obey orders... Period... I had a Sargent (Haney) once tell us that if he was ordered to kill his mother he'd do it... That is obedience... The problem is that we have a severely dumbed down nation and way too many of them are just like Sargent Haney and are not capable of critical thought... They just obey... That is why we don't need delusional people giving the orders... This is beyond free speech... This is back to why it is wrong to yell "Fire" in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:27 PM

bobster, i agree with the dumbed down nation. That is why I think voicing opinions against the advertisers is productive. It costs millions to make a commercial to hock a product. The last thing they want is for people to say, hey you want to spend your money supporting a show like this, I won't buy your product. It gets their attention really fast. In one of my clients call center database that I created, they got 10 calls on one of their commercial, after only 10 calls, they pulled the commercial and replaced it with something else. The theory is people have to be really upset to comment, and for each that do, there are hundreds or thousands that think the same way and won't buy our product. Hitting them via the people running ads on the show, that is a pain they don't want. If a big advertiser walks, the show is not very long for the TV world

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:40 PM

I cannot attest to the truth of the following. Perhaps someone can.

I`d heard years back that one letter written by a POed voter, rate payer, etc., indicated that there were about 1000 others who couldn`t be arsed to write a letter, and that the one letter had the influence of a thousand.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: ragdall
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:53 PM

A link to a copy of the ad

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:21 PM

@Bill D: We may disagree, but I appreciate your discussing the issues instead of insulting me, putting words in my mouth, or making assumptions about my opinions. You may have a perspective that I think may cause you to see things other than the way they really are, but I won't ridicule you for expressing your honest opinion. And hey… my name's not Taco, okay? If Taconicus is too long, how about just Tac?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:40 PM

Bobert, that stuff about having to follow orders is bullshit. You follow an illegal one, and you go to jail for it. No, it's not a democracy, but every individual is accountable for their actions.

Beck and Limbaugh can shoot their mouths off forever. The people who listen to them are all individually accountable for their actions. Each person who kills someone because they thought someone else told them to is STILL accountable. It doesn't matter if it's a guy who thought Beck told him to shoot someone, and it doesn't matter if it's Manson thinking the Beatles' songs told him to kill. It still comes down to the guy who pulls the trigger.

The gripe I have is that we, as a society, have encouraged stupidity. People have been conditioned to be followers. If they do "question authority", then "authority" is all they question. There are enough stupid people who always believe the guy on the internet or the TV who claims something be a lie, or bad just because it comes from the government. The "always disbelievers" aren't any different or any less dangerous than the "always believers", and they certainly aren't any smarter. They're the same folks who go after people here instead of ideas.

They are fundamentally too stupid to evaluate any idea unless they can lump it together with that person or that side's other ideas and attack the person, or the side.

In a perfect world, nobody would shoot Beck or any other bigmouth, but people would be smart enough to check for and recognize the truth of what those idiots spout.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:57 PM

Not bullshit at all, Jeri...

Perhaps you don't live asround these folks... I live right in the middle of them and that is one reason why I'm moving... These people are insanely angry at the government, Democrats, liberals, pin-headed elitists and they routinely call black people niggers, threaten to kill Obama and they listen to Glen Beck...

Maybe if you were to spend a couple weeks living in the middle of these people you'd understand...

Your argument that people are accountable for their actions is also lacking when you have people like these people... I mean, they are alot like Sgt. Haney... So, if you think that someone like Beck can incite people to kill and that he not have an responsibility in it you are way off base...

Hitler didn't march the folks into the gas chambers... His minions did... Does this absolve Hitler of wrong doing??? Me thinks you need to reconsider yer position...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:59 PM

Doesn't matter where I'm from; calling someone taco, beaner, wop, kike, slope, spic, etc. is definitely a derogatory slur and usually meant to be offensive, though I'm willing to believe that those who called me that above didn't purposely mean it that way--aside from Richard Bridge, who seems to be being purposely malicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:01 PM

OK - repost. If I was modded, mod, PM me.

@Tac. Tac, if your objection to being called taco is because it sounds Mexican, your objection requires you to defend it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:07 PM

I live right in the middle of them ... and they routinely call black people niggers, threaten to kill Obama

I don't believe you, Bobert. Where is it you live? Not in any part of America I know of, if you're telling the truth, and I've been all over the country. Threatening to kill Obama (the President) is a federal crime (a felony per 18 USC § 871) and you should've (and from your post, I'm confident you would have) reported them, if it really happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:13 PM

I deleted it, Richard, as well as my post following it. Ethnic slurs are out of bounds. This thread currently has a subject that is NOT altered by trolling.

Taconicus doesn't need to defend himself, if you'd called him "nigger" and he is white, if you called him "rag head" and he is Israeli, if you'd called him "Tonto" and he was Mexican, it would still be unacceptible.

Bobert, what I said about the military is true, no matter who you're living with. I do think people are incited by jerks, but I also think the world would be better if they were expected to take responsibility for their own actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:20 PM

The whole problem is there are just dumb people who don't realize that these shows and those types of people are just in the shock reality TV business. They just can't see it for what it really is. Are the networks right to put this stuff on under the idea that it is politics. Hell it isn't politics it is shock TV.   kinda like Jersey Shore but instead of drunk twenty year olds we have Beck and Lindbagh, Bill Mahr ect ... trying to out shock one another for ratings. WE give them too much publicity I think. Kinda like thinking the "real housewives of NY" represents a real housewife of New York ... eee gads

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM

I can't speak for Bobert, but I also live in Bubbaland, albeit a different part, and I think I know what he's talking about when he says its denizens "threaten to kill Obama". It's not direct threats as in "I'm planning to kill..." or "I will kill..." but more "I'd like to kill..." or "I wish somebody'd kill...". Technically, I guess such statements aren't threats in the legal sense, but the underlying current of of anger and intolerance is there just the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:34 PM

Actually Bee-d, people have been convicted under 18 USC § 871 (and their convictions sustained) for saying the President ought to be killed, or for saying they'd like to kill him. So go ahead and report them--if you really heard such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:36 PM

Bobert, this is what I was replying to: "In the military you are taught to obey regardless of the orders... The military isn't democracy... You obey orders... Period... I had a Sargent (Haney) once tell us that if he was ordered to kill his mother he'd do it... That is obedience..."

There ARE people who believe what you said, that soldiers HAVE to follow orders, no matter if they're illegal or legal. The problem is that they're dumb enough to believe that. I don't think that we're disagreeing on much. I think that people should be held accountable for what they do, no matter who told them to do it. The disagreement comes with how much responsibility the people telling them, or hinting about what they should do have.

I'm not ready to see other people as responsible for a person's actions. People can be influence to hate someone, but if a person can kill someone just because Beck or Limbaugh tells them to, they probably should be under supervision 24/7. Then we get back to woulda/shoulda/coulda noticing when somebody's gone over the edge.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:50 PM

In the U.S. military, soldiers are required to obey only legal orders. I don't know to what extent enlisted men and women would be excused from liability for following an illegal order (they might be excused for assuming the order was legal) but I know that officers are expected to know the difference, and they would be held responsible (and be punished) for obeying an illegal order that caused them to commit a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:58 PM

Military personnel are taught to follow legal orders, they are also trained to NOT follow illegal orders. You tell a Navy Seal to go kill everyone in the village and you will hear NO Sir I cannot and will not follow that order sir it is illegal sir..

Those that would follow an illegal order will face the same criminal prosecution as those who gave it. Most soldiers do know the difference. But like everywhere else there are bad soldiers also from time to time that we hear about

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:04 PM

Taconicus-Thank you for noticing that I have tried to stick to issues... and I hope YOU noticed that I was not one who shortened your name...(your complaint did follow directly your remarks to me.)

I see your posting history was very intermittent until recently, so I have not 'crossed words' with you until this. My major concern (having been a Philosophy major many years ago) is to sort out truth from fiction and good arguments from flawed logic & specious rhetoric. There are a couple of conservative posters here who also will try to follow this route, but sadly, I find few conservative pundits who will eschew BS for reason. If we were neighbors, I could sit in front of a TV with you and point and explain in real time. I don't know what you watch/listen to, but Rachel Maddow & Lawrence O'Donnell largely try to at least have their facts lined up and make coherent arguments, whether one agrees with their conclusions or not.
I would LOVE to know...from anyone, not just Taconicus... which conservative pundits might be trying to make sense instead of 'points'.
   (I was watching Bill O'Reilly pontificating to Chris Wallace on Fox the other night, and it 'seemed' to me Wallace was squirming as he tried not to call O'Reilly down for the BS he was spouting. Wallace had just tried to clarify and calm some issue, and he obviously wasn't making any headway. I 'think' Wallace might be one who would like to be part of a 'sane' conservative program if he could.... much as Joe Scarbourough and Par Buchanan have toned down their rhetoric in the last few years. [Joe used to be one of my major gripes, and I think he was ummm... 'encouraged' to do so at the time. Now he is right of center, but reasonably .... reasonable.] Buchanan is 'almost' so until you hit certain hot buttons.)

   I miss William F. Buckley... he made me WORK to find flaws in his logic and approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:15 PM

Bill you are comparing apples and oranges ... Buckley was a scholar who engaged in respectful discussion and debate to understand the issue and reach an acceptable result. These shows are shock value TV with people who make their living out of conflict. Completely different people and forums.

Kinda like comparing Bill O'Reilly discussing 2nd Amendment and a "face the nation discussion on it" one is a real discussion on an important topic, the other is just over the top hype for ratings.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:23 PM

Well, Jeri... Yeah, soldiers do have a responsibility to uphold the Geneva Convention and rules of war... With that said, there is a fine li8ne between being insubordinate and doing the right thing...

Lots of folks in this country, especially in rural areas, have become Beck-ites and Bee-duyba-ell and I hear it all the time... BTW, I live in rural Page County, Va. where folks from DC come to visit, fall ion love with the beauty, buy houses and then in two years want the hell out... I might be able for you to actually talk with a couple who are "stuck" here because of the real estate market and cuss the day thet decided to move here...

Redneck Nation is not a figment of my imagination... It is very real... It is armed to the teeth and pissed off to have a black man as president and it listens to Beck as if he were the 2nd Coming...

As for Sgt. Haney... I can remember his words to this very day... The actual quote was, "If I was ordered to kill my mother, my father, my brothers and my sister I'd do it and never give it a second thought"... Something like that kinda hard to shake...

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:34 PM

Bill D, we obviously have different opinions about politics, but I agree with you totally about what you wrote above. I absolutely love discussing (debating, arguing) based on reason and especially with someone who doesn't mind my pointing out logical fallacies (and will acknowledge them). But that's almost impossible these days to do online. First of all, so many people get extremely emotional and can't seem to argue calmly, and also so many people can't keep to the subject: their arguments fly all over the place, and things get out of hand very quickly.

Also, I mostly love music and I can actually make music, so I'm more likely to talk about that. When it comes to politics, arguing about it is often just as pointless as it is frustrating, since I'm not rich, not powerful, and have no control over what goes on politically in this country (or this world)--so really, what does it matter what I say about it? Why get upset (and make other people upset) arguing about it? I enjoy truly intellectual debates about it, but as I explained above, that's hard to do these days.

There are few pundits on either side who really make an effort to be fair, but I do notice the ones who do. I respect Chris Wallace (slightly right) and Charles Krauthammer (decidedly right). I think they're good ones, and on the left there are people I respect, like Alan Colmes and Susan Estrich for instance, because they also try to be fair and they make me think and consider other views.

I like Bill O'Reilly, because he seems to be honest and is very entertaining to watch, although he's not very big in the logic department, and he's a terrible blowhard - but he's fun to watch, kind of like a bull in a china shop. He's not really a conservative the way Buckley was, as far as I can tell he's more of a populist.

And I know what you mean about William F. Buckley. He used to drive me crazy when I watched him as a teenager (I was very Democrat then), because I just knew what he was saying had to be wrong, but I could never figure out any good arguments or reasons to overcome his arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:35 PM

In basic training, they taught a bit about the UCMJ and following LEGAL orders. Leadership schools through the years taught more. I believe that all military people get some sort of UCMJ training. As a medical person, if someone told me to go out and find bad guys to shoot, I'd be giving up my Geneva Conventions non-combatant status. If I refused the order, I'd be violating article 92 and could be prosecuted.

I think those who have never been in the military tend to believe things about the military based stuff they've heard. Some know better, but some don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 09:03 PM

Yeah, Jer... They are... For every hour they get of UCMJ they get a 100 hours of Sgt. Haney yelling in their face... Guess who wins that one???

BTW, Sgt. Haney ain't a made up guy... I had more than my fill of him... He was the biggest jerk I ever knew in my entire life and he was in my face more than anyone I ever knew...

Yo, Tac...

Check out my latest against Chuckie K... You won't have any trouble figuring out who I am... I go there and bust the Chuck-ites, too... BTW, Chuckie K is a light weight who knows nothing about economics and that's a bad thing these days... Check out his latest discussion on Obama... Might be enlightening... I ain't the only one that sees Chuckie as a lightweight...

B~

Subject: Mistaken ideas about the military
From: Taconicus
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 09:04 PM

Jeri wrote:
I think those who have never been in the military tend to believe things about the military based [on] stuff they've heard.

Indeed. I remember when I saw the (brilliantly crafted, but very manipulative) film American Beauty. At the very beginning the viewer is told that the protagonist will die, but not who kills him. But I guessed right away--correctly--who the murderer was. I thought it was the guy who was supposed to be the retired Marine officer, but the reason I thought he was the killer was that he was so completely different from anyone I'd ever met in the military that I figured he was obviously a psychotic murderer masquerading as a veteran. Of course, my mistake was that I didn't realize his "psychotically repressed-homosexual killer" personality was merely what the typical Hollywood writer/director/producer thinks is typical of high-ranking military officers. So I was right, but for the wrong reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:51 PM

Well, I came close enough... Massanutten Military Academy, Class of '65... Back then, military schools weren't no picnic like they are today... This was basic training with a few classes thrown in... The army was takin' 4 year ROTcies and putting them right into 2nd Lieutenants and shippin' 'um off to Nam within' 6 months of graduatin' 8 Massanutten grads were killed in Vietnam... One recently retired as a 2 star general... This is my background and based on what we went thru8 back then it weren't all that much different than what any marine was going thru... Just alot longer fir us...

So, yeah... I understand military... Ain't no Hollywood... Ain't no story book...

That is what scares me about a sub-culture that alot of you don't know... This ain't Bobert's conspiracy theory here.;.. Beee-zer backed me up on this... Ya'll can say what ya'll think you need to say but there are one heck of alot of folks out here in rural America that ya'll might find frightening... 100% patriots... White... Hate Obama... Hate the government... Hate, Hate...Hate...

Where's this all coming from??? I mean, these people don't read anything... They listen to Rush and they watch Beck and that's all they need...

Now we go back to Sgt. Haney... Heck, Sgt. Haney is now Glen Beck...

He's got yer attention... There's something about folks screaming in yer face that makes that moment every more memorable... I mean, I can't remember what I had for breakfast this mornin' but clearly remember Sgt. Haney...

That's the game here... It's like driving rock 'n roll... It is memorizing to people... They get all tranced-up...They say the same stuff... "Someone ougtta kill that nigger"... "Someone oughtta kill that Commie"..."Someone oughtta kill that Jew"... "Someone oughtta kill that ___________"???

I mean, this is insanity.... It *************all***************** starts with speech.... There is not one single3 war in the history of mankind that did not begin with speech... Glen Beck & Co. are using speech to create an entire sub culture that is ready and willing to fuck you up if you don't think like the way they want you to think...

That, my fiends, is reality...

Yeah, we can say that folks have a perfect right to say this or that but when this or that is about killing other people then in a country founded on everyone's pursuit of happiness then letting propagandists who are preaching violence and killing access to our country's publicly owned airwaves seems to be well on the side of pure wrongness...

But ya'll on the right... Have at it... Hope that the tables don't turn on you and you find yourselves on the wrong side of the armed camp...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:17 PM

Bobster
why I detest hate shows and speeches is that very reason. You bet it is wrong and you bet it is destructive. I just won't give up the bill of rights to stop it. They can say that stuff but if they make threats you bet they can be prosecuted for sure. Ya can't say i am going to kill so and so (doesn't have to be the president) they can be arrested. I wish people today would stop listening to that crap and just take it for what it is. But i live in a dream world I guess. The only thing a person can do is, not listen to it, and if you do, then take action against it by writing the networks and the sponsors for the shows. hey Howard Stern may say he moved to sirus radio cause he wanted to , the fact is his sponsors started leaving the sinking ship cause people started complaining about his antics. That is the fact. We give people like Rush air time and publicity and they revel in it, the more people yell the more they like it cause it only makes them richer and gives them more press. Hitting the sponsors with I won't buy your product for sponsoring that hate show, that works. But I sure am not going to toss out the constitution because people say things I detest either.   That is no solution my brother

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:24 PM

"...so really, what does it matter what I say about it?"

Well, I know that it is hard to make things better, but it's pretty easy to make things worse, so my 'goal' is to leave bits of the most sense *I* can make scattered about in hopes that some will detect glimmerings of reason...about HOW to debate, if not actual conclusions. I don't presume to actually change many minds... (at least not obviously ☺)... but I'd hope that I don't become a bad example of MY side to be quoted with scorn.

(and I can sorta make music also, if simple autoharp stuff in 3-4 chords counts. I have been on Mudcat since the beginning, and 15 years ago, I mainly answered 'folk' questions and tried to explain what 'folk' was in my inimitable style...THAT is harder than explicating the difference between liberal and conservative.)

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:26 PM

gee...thread creep sure has taken this far afield from the Rabbis, hmmm?

"Guilty, yer honor"

Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:34 PM

100