BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic

Subject: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 12:53 PM

It has just been announced that the Queen is to pay a state visit to the Irish Republic this year, the first by a British monarch for a century.

The Queen accepted an invitation from the Republic's President Mary McAleese.

Her grandfather, George V, was the last serving monarch to visit the country in 1911 when it was then part of the UK.

I imagine the success of the Northern Ireland peace process made this possible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: gnu
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 02:09 PM

Well, I'd make a snide remark but it would be inappropriate as I am simply a colonist of Irish descent and I am hoping no trouble comes from the visit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM

Well the Queen's a colonist of German descent, but (you've got to hand it to her) she did better on the deal than our lot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Clontarf83
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 04:21 PM

Lots of empty hotels to put her up in.

I hope the hard core lunatics stay home.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 05:41 PM

Is this Lizzie's way of passing the throne over to the next one. If she gets out of there alive, I will really be surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM

'I hope the hard core lunatics stay home.'

I don't think Prince Charles has been invited.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 08:04 PM

Time to dust off the old Northern Irish graffiti joke with a change of name:

NO POPE HERE
lucky old pope

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Mar 11 - 10:56 PM

Good one, Allan...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: J-boy
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 12:39 AM

I think most sane people don't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 03:53 AM

'I hope the hard core lunatics stay home.' 'I don't think Prince       Charles has been invited.'
Or Phil??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 04:06 AM

It's called "Diplomacy". It's a symbolic step in the building and reinforcement of international friendships and mutually-beneficial relationships, and it's one turn of the spade in the digging of the hole in which old, worn-out hatchets are buried.

Why anyone with more than one functioning brain-cell would object to that is beyond my comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 04:33 AM

Hey... maybe they'll rename Cobh as Queenstown...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 04:36 AM

"the Queen's a colonist of German descent,"

Not much of a monarchist myself but I always smile at this one. On the maternal side the Queen is thoroughly British and on the paternal side she has, like all royal family trees will have, many foreign ancestors, but she also has many Brtish ancestors and can trace them back to the first millenium!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 05:43 AM

Well yes Johnny, we understand about diplomatic visits.

However we are talking about a land where not very long ago - a crown on your hat made you a legitimate target.

As regards the visit, you know what Sergeant Wilson said, Is that wise.....?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 05:49 AM

Anyway both countries are suppposedly skint. Why waste money on this nonsense?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM

I think a bank or Fianna Fáil logo is more likely to make you a target these days, Al. Too much pain and anger here, directed at other sources, and no one can blame the British for this one. Times do move on (though not always in ways that you could wish) and surely its time to break the ice... if the ice hasn't melted by now in the economic greenhouse effect...

The centenary of the 1916 Uprising will soon be upon us. I'll bet that more people will be thinking What would the Patriots say if they could come back and see the mess the powerful have made of our hard-won country than will be sticking two fingers up to the Brits. The boom/bust has been such a roller-coaster ride, and now it's back to emigration and unemployment and debt - and a generation sold out by those who were supposed to protect and guide them.

I think these are the main issues uppermost in the national psyche these days, people feeling betrayed by their own elected government and its mutually back-scratching cronies. For many - especially those with kids - the present is of more active concern than the past. Partly because no one knows how it'll end. Not to mention when.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 06:30 AM

Interesting that she is coming over in May. That will be about the time the Ulster Unionists, D.U.P. and TUV will be holding unity talks to collapse Stormont as they will NEVER sit in an assembly government under a Sinn Fein First Minister.

Martin McGuninness and Sinn Fein will top the poll in Ulster, of that there is no doubt. Unionism is in a mess, in fighting, Robinson's wife cruising looking younger men, even the S.D.L.P. are a shadow of what they once were, they are that pushed they are standing a Polish candidate in one area !

Ulster will eventually go back to direct rule, frankly I don't think it can come soon enough.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: nutty
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

I can never understand why people want to keep harping on about old injustices.

If everyone did it then we be at war with just about half the world and they would be at war with us.

How many countries have colonised Britain. Try counting them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 08:58 AM

'Ulster will eventually go back to direct rule, frankly I don't think it can come soon enough.'


Yeh direct rule from Dublin. personally i wouldn't piss away another english soldier's life on all that nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

Agreed. I still think Unionists in Ulster will unite against a Sinn Fein First Minister. Labour are not in office now,no more running to London making demands. Republicans holding the first seat in local government will spark off something.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 09:35 AM

Sinn Féin won the Donegal by-election awhile back.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 11:06 AM

"I imagine the success of the Northern Ireland peace process made this possible."
Try reading the Ulster Press.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 04:40 PM

' On the maternal side the Queen is thoroughly British and on the paternal side she has, like all royal family trees will have, many foreign ancestors, but she also has many Brtish ancestors and can trace them back to the first millenium! '

Rubbish, if Germans were black. prince charles would be a rasta and they'd all be limbo dancing under the Van Dycks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM

As Percy French wrote:

I've seen England's king from the top of a bus
    And I've never known him, but he means to know us.
    And tho' by the Saxon we once were oppressed,
    Still I cheered, God forgive me, I cheered with the rest.
    And now that he's visited Erin's green shore
    We'll be much better friends than we've been heretofore
    When we've got all we want, we're as quiet as can be
    Where the mountains of Mourne sweep down to the sea.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 07:54 PM

For those who like to explore the complex linage of Kings & Queens, there is a lovely (free) little program called "Simple Family Tree"...(for Windows PCs)

go here & scroll down

You can, of course...as I have done... use it to enter your own ancestors, but one of the things they offer is "Sample family tree: The Kings of Europe.ged"
This gives a HUGE list of the family trees...as well as is known... of most of the relevant individuals. (In the case of England, right down to William and Charles and Diana...etc.)
   It is quite easy to edit if you 'think' you see errors...

Note: You cannot, of course, display the entire pattern in one window, but clicking on any individual changes the display to center on him/her...and it is possible to open a 2nd copy and see the previous generations....


Oh...they also offer a sample database of Genesis...but... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 11 - 07:57 PM

By the way...right-clicking on any individual bring up the edit screen for him, with a place for notes or links to images.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Allan Conn
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 04:09 AM

"Rubbish, if Germans were black. prince charles would be a rasta and they'd all be limbo dancing under the Van Dycks."

If Germans were black Prince Charles would still be just as British as he is now as it wouldn't change the fact that the Queen's maternal family was thoroughly British and on her paternal side she can trace the British line back to the first millenium. It is absurd to claim she isn't British just because 'some' of her ancestors weren't. The nature of the beast is that royalty often married other royalty so obviously the lineage is cosmopolitan. That has always been so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

Look at the evidence

1) they give Charles the grand dutchy of Cornwall, and what does he do - he makes sausages!

2) Charles has lots of ceremonial uniforms

3) The Albert Speer inspired architecture of the village of Poundbury.

4) The Queen talks funny - like a foreigner.

5) Prince Charles has funny ears - like the Hapsburgs - and a big hooter.

I think, even the most unbiased person would have to admit - a certain picture of Germanic tendencies is emerging.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM

But everybody makes sausages, Al. The Krauts do indeed make franks & weenies; but the Eyeties make salami & mortadella, the Frogs make boudin... And it isn't the Jerries who have the big hooters either, is it? ~~ it was the Romans.

"Unbiased" forsooth ~~ never heard such a load of special pleading.

Tee-hee ~~ oh aren't you a one! Saucebox!.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 03:59 PM

The Queen she came to call on us
She wanted to see all of us
I'm glad she didn't fall on us
She's eighteen stone

Mister Mayor man says she
Is this all you have to show to me
Why no ma'am, there's more to see
Pog mo thon

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM

glad that the Queen is visiting Ireland, peace ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 04:22 PM

God knows, it would be great if she returned to England an English republican - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#225

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 11 - 09:14 PM

I can see you need some convincing Mike.

Think about this. Charles likes to wander round Balmoral in a kilt. It seems quite evident to me that a man who likes to get the brisk highland air circulating freely round his bollocks is somewhat a friend to the spirit of the wandervogel. And isn't there a suggestion of yodelling in those Blubottle impressions?

All pretty damning if you ask me. It all adds up to just one thing. What else do you need - a Bayern Munich Supporters Club Membership card?

If theres another war - we should intern the lot of them. In fact, why wait for a war?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 12:39 AM

Yodelling SWISS, Al ("developed in Central Alps": wiki). Your argument full of holes as an Emmental & epitomised by word #22 of sentence #2 of your para #2 above.

Anyhow, nobody denies a fair bit of the Bosch in the mix; but pursue that theme too far and you will have StinkiLox & DonT & Steve & all those well-meaning right-on point-missers shrieking 'Racism' in your lugholes. Then you'll be sorry.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: J-boy
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 12:52 AM

"Take down the Union Jack. It clashes with the sunset. Put it in the attic with the emperor's old clothes." - Billy Bragg

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 04:07 AM

I suppose it would be difficult not to have some British ancestry, but if you trace Mrs Windsor's lines back to the first millenium, most of the names that come up are Anglo-Saxon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Allan Conn
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 07:29 AM

"Mrs Windsor's lines back to the first millenium, most of the names that come up are Anglo-Saxon."

May indeed be so. On the paternal side she will have a great many English and Scottish ancestors. She can also go right back through Robert the Bruce through his Gaelic mother and back to the early Kings of Scotland and even back to the Pictish kings certainly as far as Kenneth MacAlpin so basically to the mid-9thC. After that it gets more into myth rather than hard facts. Along the way there are Drummonds, Mures, Bruces, Dunbars as well as various known Gaelic ancestors from before the surname era. Add to that the fact that many of the early Scottish kings married English women then you bring in the Tudors, the Beauforts, and the House of Wessex itslef that was defeated by the Norman Conquest. It is true that one can't know all the fathers are who the tree says they are - but that is the same for everyone. So she has this elongated British family tree going back more than a thousand years on one side whilst on the other side it is basically a British lineage. Add to that the fact that the family have resided in Britain continuously for centuries then you can see it is absurd to say she isn't British.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM

On the other hand - if she's English, how come one never sees her in key English locations

1) You never see her in a chip shop

2) You never see her in a folk club, or at any of the festivals

3) You never see her down the carboot

4)You never see her doing the Hokey Cokey at a wedding

5) You never see her hanging the washing out, outside Buckingham Palace

All these places that you do see her - the cup final and trooping the colour - they're tourists and foreigners' ideas about being English.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 02:04 PM

... too busy in the parlour, Al, eating bread n honey: that's what she DOES. Donchu know nuffink! It's the maid in the garden for your #5, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

And we all know who's been in the counting house, don't we...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM

You never see her and Philip down the garden centre having a two for for the price of one cream tea either, with all the other pensioners.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM

I've had a look, and among all the Anglo-SAxons, Norman French, Norse, Picts, Gaels etc, the only British name in Mrs Windsor's ancestry is Owain Tewdr.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 02:12 AM

"the only British name in Mrs Windsor's ancestry is Owain Tewdr."

Are you saying that names like Douglas, Mure and Drummond etc didn't originate in Britain? Likewise her tree goes back to pre-surname times anyway and her Pictish ancestors would be every bit as British as her Welsh ancestors. The Roman frontier was imposed artificially by outsiders. Or are you saying only people with P-Celtic names are British? Surely a jest. The ancestor of the Welsh language is itself not necessarily indiginous either :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 04:01 AM

Names can originate anywhere. The Picts and British are usually differentiated, partly on the grounds that the P-Celtic language spoken by the former appears to have been more closely related to Gaulish, though all the dialects were probably mutually comprehensible. There is also evidence for a non-Indo-European language being used by the Picts into historic times.

Coming from Edinburgh (where the earliest Welsh poetry was written) I was surrounded by numerous examples of the variety of languages spoken - for example, just south of my house we had Roslin and Penicuik (both British) and between them, Auchendinny (Gaelic).

Unfortunately, the British Kingdom of Strathclyde (ruled from Dumbarton, the fort of the Britons) does not appear to hhave contributed significantly to the royal blood line.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 04:23 AM

Its simpler than all that....the question is, do we want them in our gang?

Obviously the answer is no!

They're too posh, they talk funny, and we always have to get the drinks in. You never see the Queen down the pub saying, allright lads! I'm really flush, so the drinks are on me tonite. lets tie one on!

Never has happened, never will......

mean buggers! that's completely un-English.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 06:25 AM

On his RTE 1 radio show this morning, John Murray suggested if she comes over, as she's a big equestrian fan, that she should visit the Smithfield horse fair in Dublin!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 06:25 AM

"Names can originate anywhere."

Quite true and also just because a name is 'for example' Anglian or Gaelic it doesn't mean the person who held that name came totally or even predominatly from Anglian or Gaelic stock or even from that stock at all. People got their names sometimes because of an association with a place, sometimes they were originally occupation names, and sometimes they simply assumed names. It is daft that we are even discussing it though. Whether someone's British ancestor from 1000 years ago had a Norman or Welsh name is hardly important as 1000 years of history within Britain makes one's family British!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM

It's strange how the very same people who sneer at the Royals for "not being British" because most of their ancestors came from other countries would, quite rightly, object strongly to the same thing being done to British citizens whose ancestors came from the West Indies or India, for example.

And none of this has any relevance whatsoever to the question of whether or not it's a good idea to have a hereditary monarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 07:24 AM

McGrath I completely agree with you. I think some people think of them as not being British not only because of intermarriage but because the Hanovarians were supposedly not British. However the heir to Queen Anne was originally Sophia of Hanover who herself was the daughter of Princess Elizabeth of Scotland who was born in Scotland and brought up in Scotland then England. So even her grandson George I in modern parlance would qualify at playing for Scotland at rugby. In all the thousand years or so there were a couple of generations only who didn't live in Britain and that was about 300 years ago anyway!

But you are right. Whether the hereditary monarchy is a good thing or not is a pertinent question. Trying to suggest they aren't British is just a bit silly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 11:28 AM

If you notice, the Queen has lots of her logo on all sorts of things - hankies, knickers, lager glasses - they all have E,,R on them, which as everyone knows was Hitlers first name. in fact i have seen several films where he is addressed as ER Hitler.

the evidence is there for all those who look!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:26 AM

"Viable explosive device" just been found and defused in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:36 AM

I tend to agree with Malachy, we should not attempt to re-write history. In our case, the book could run to a million volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:38 AM

And you joined Mudcat just to say that Malachy?
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 17 May 11 - 04:38 AM

Take the blue from the flag
And leave the rest to Billy Bragg.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 May 11 - 06:33 AM

John Major was on the box last night saying what a good idea it was. I still think its a crap idea.

Isn't Mullaghmore a place?

I wonder why people do that. John Denver, Alex Glasgow, Michael York.

You never get Charley Biggleswade, Freddy Furness-Vale, Miriam St Neots.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 11 - 06:55 AM

If most people want the visit, why is it a crap idea?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:25 AM

Irish Times.
President McAleese said: "I think it is an extraordinary moment in Irish history, a phenomenal sign of the success of the peace process and absolutely the right moment for us to welcome on to Irish soil Her Majesty the Queen, the head of state of our immediate next-door neighbours, the people with whom we are forging a new future, a future very, very different from the past, on very different terms from the past.

"I think that visit will send the message that we are, both jurisdictions, determined to make the future a much, much better place," she said.

The Taoiseach said he hoped the Queen would be shown a warm welcome by the people of Ireland.

Mr Kenny said the vast majority of people in Ireland welcomed the Queen's visit, adding that those opposed to the visit were entitled to protest but that he hoped they would not "embarrass the country".

"This is the start of a new beginning coming at the end of the presidency of Mary McAleese and I think it is very fitting that the Queen has accepted her invitation to come here," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:26 AM

Mullaghmore is where the IRA murdered Earl Mountbatten, a member of the British Royal Family - and several others, including a young boy, in the '70's.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:27 AM

BBC
The Irish protesters who gathered on the streets of Dublin at the weekend branded Britain "the neighbour from hell" as they demonstrated against the Queen's forthcoming visit to the Republic of Ireland.

Hardline dissident republicans held placards, waved flags and voiced their hostility towards the British crown. They vowed to make sure that the Queen's first trip to Dublin would be her last.

The demonstration on Sunday afternoon in the city centre was heavily publicised in advance. It was billed as a chance for Dubliners to let the world see the depth of Irish opposition to the high-profile British visitor.

How many people turned up? About 50.

Just up the road, five times that number gathered at Dublin airport to see Irish pop duo Jedward return from Germany after competing in the Eurovision song contest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 May 11 - 07:30 AM

Keith

Any chance you'd leave people to read their own newspapers for a change? ;>)

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:07 AM

Usual rent a mob!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:37 AM

My belief that radio is always more informative and entertaining was re-inforced today when I listened to George Galloway propose that the Queen, on our behalf, apologise for everything that has happened in the British Isles since before Hadrians Wall!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 May 11 - 09:38 AM

The current Prime Minister of Lower Saxony is called David McAllister. Bloody Celtic colonists.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 May 11 - 10:21 AM

I am a member of the English working class and come from an English/Irish family, with a more than usually acute sense of history. Therefore, I am naturally aggrieved by the common bonds of suffering which both my sets of ancestors endured at the hands of the divide and rule English ruling class. Moreover, I am aggrieved at the part which exploitation and history have played in dividing two sets of people who have so much in common.

Whatever. The past is the past, I suppose I ought to feel glad that the reigning monarch of this country is at last able to visit a country, which the English ruling classes systematically put the boot into for 700 years.

But wouldn't it be nice if, instead of the representative of a dying feudal monarchy, we could have sent a constitutionally elected president, to stand on an equal footing with Ireland's constitutionally elected president.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:03 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Stu
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:26 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:32 AM

No

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:39 AM

Maybe ~~ but how precisely would we be any better off? Would you really rather have a President Blair [or Cameron or Clegg or Bloggs or Coggs or Blenkinsop or McCormick or TwistletonWickhamFiennes, cont p 94] than a King William & Queen Kate? Honest now, Fred...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:40 AM

Maybe...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:41 AM

I mean, so they'd be 'elected'? Big deal! So [GODWIN ALERT] was old Adolf U-no-who...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:51 AM

Berlusconi was elected - would you prefer him?
Hitler was elected - would you prefer him?
George W. Bush was elected (twice) - would you prefer him?
William Jefferson Clinton was elected - would you prefer him?
I could go on and on and on...............

Election is not a guarantee of quality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 11 - 11:59 AM

Usual utter stupidity from the "I'm working class" snobs!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Stu
Date: 17 May 11 - 12:19 PM

Christ on a bike.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 11 - 01:27 PM

I am not interested, and shall do my best to avoid all media coverage, however the visit will be a boost to the irish economy, so that must be a plus.
frankly I dont think it makes any difference whether its the Queen or an elected tosser like Obama[ who authorised the illegal killing of bin laden], let all the stupid puppets come, and we will have all the economic benefits money that these visits produce , who cares whether its an elcted toss pot or a royal tosspot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 May 11 - 01:52 PM

Yes I would accept Bill Clinton as the King. he came to Birmingham. He plays a saxophone. he helped the peace process. Bill's all right.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:11 PM

I'd be happy to have a horse as head of state. It'd make the visit to the Irish stud much more exciting.

Otherwise I'd sooner the Queen than any politician - and it would be a politician.

The only thing about this visit that worries me is the way it's been used to suggest that all the business between England (or "Britain") and Ireland is done and dusted. That's not true while six counties of Ireland are ruled from London. So long as that is recognised, no harm in a friendly visit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:18 PM

Yes I would accept Bill Clinton as the King---
====
Al: Is there a subtle distinction being made here in your use of "as *the* King", [as in Elvis], rather than simply "as King", which I feel the more idiomatic construction? Or am I just being oversubtle...*

~Michael~

*or, if you prefer, the usual boring pedantic old fart?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:21 PM

"the illegal killing of bin laden" ~~~
====
Maybe, maybe not. But any killing was better than no killing...

IMO YMMV &allthat

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:34 PM

MGM,Sorry you are off beam, he should have been tried just as Goering and other Nazis murderers were tried.
we really dont know whether he was killed or not, or have you tested his DNA.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 May 11 - 02:54 PM

Presumably, the Queen, as Britain's Head of State, was invited by the Irish Head of State to come to Dublin on a friendly, bridge-building visit. She has taken quite a personal risk in accepting, and (as usual) is undertaking her duties there with dignity and grace. Interviews with several shoppers, passers-by etc seemed to show that, while not rapt with joy at her presence, they are not at all against the visit. If she isn't wanted there, why was she invited? I think it has done some good, and laid the foundation for future good relations.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:39 PM

By heck. It doesn't take much to set the MGM off. I am in favour of a democratic constitutional presidency. Who the incumbent might be would not be for me to decide, that would be the responsibility of the electorate.

The Irish have chosen their head of state by secret ballot since 1945. Given that they have usually chosen wisely, it is probably safe to assume that the British would do the same. There exists the possibility of course that they could elect a complete nutter by mistake - a retired theatre critic perhaps, or maybe a concertina player who can't sing. However, if we were to adopt the system of checks and balances which have been built into the Irish Constitution, to prevent such a thing from happening, this is one misfortune which is not likely to befall us.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:43 PM

Given that they have usually chosen wisely, it is probably safe to assume that the British would do the same.

Since the British electorate have decided that they just aren't bright enough to count "one,two,three" in elections, that might not be such a safe assumption...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:51 PM

retired theatre critic perhaps,+++

Now, who could that be I wonder Fred.

Google

http://extra.shu.ac.uk/emls/15-2/revmyer.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:53 PM

Strange, the Irish electorate have used the single transferable vote system since 1921. If they're intelligent enough enough to be able to use it, so are we. But then I always did figure there was something fundamentally unsound about those myths of Ireland being populated by 'thick paddies'.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:56 PM

Sorry M, I just copied your URL into my browser and a blank page came up. Is it trying to tell me something?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:56 PM

The article(definite or indefinite) is immaterial.

Bill Clinton would cut a fine figure as monarch. Vote for Bill. A man who believes in giving youth its head.

Bill has had his DNA tested. Tried and tested.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 11 - 04:08 PM

he[bill] is also fond of a blow job, is that a recommendation or not?
"I am a member of the English working class and come from an English/Irish family" quote FRED MC CORMICK, What a relief,I thought you might be this Fred mcCormick .
   ALLEGAN -- After an emotional statement from the family of murder victim Kevin Pluger, a judge today sentenced Frederick Earl McCormick to 25 to 50 years in prison for the 1993 killing in the Allegan State Game Area.
Courtesy Photo Kevin PlugerCourtesy Frederick McCormick

One of two men charged in the crime that involved marijuana, McCormick, 43, previously pleaded guilty to second-degree murder in the shooting death of Pluger inside a pickup truck in the game area. Prior to the sentencing by Allegan County Circuit Court Judge George Corsiglia, a relative of Pluger described the pain the family went through over the death.

An alleged co-conspirator, Randy Czerkies, is awaiting trial after a plea deal fell through last month. McCormick fingered Czerkies for the drug-related shooting, which involved $20,000 worth of marijuana held by Pluger.

During his plea, McCormick admitted he put a pistol in the pickup, knowing Czerkies planned to shoot Pluger. According to testimony, Czerkies was angry with Pluger, his half-brother, over some "stolen dope" and he planned to kill him.

An Allegan County cold case team solved the slaying last year.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 May 11 - 05:03 PM

Sorry Fred ~~ have checked back ~~ the final l should not have been there: try this one ~~

http://extra.shu.ac.uk/emls/15-2/revmyer.htm

Should link to my current review of Shakespeare in Cambridge in the journal Early Modern Literary Studies, for whom I review Renaissance theatre [mainly Shax] in Cambridge & E Anglia. So still soldiering on as best as can with my ancient joints creaking and the spiders spinning webs over my aging eyes...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:49 AM

The BBC was pointing out this morning that the visit is making news globally, and is a good news story for both countries.

I doubt that a meeting between two men in suits would have had the same impact.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Malachy Mullaghmore
Date: 18 May 11 - 03:48 AM

The visit has been anything but a success Keith. Traders in Dublin city centre are furious at the loss of business. The city was on lock down since 5pm yesterday.

It has been the first Royal visit in which a monarch was ushered through empty streets, occupied only by policemen. There was no Royal walkabout and no meeting the people.

Britain has occupied, murdered and stolen from Ireland for more than 800 years. The Queen, must make an apology for the misdeeds of her army and government.

There is always some good that comes out of bad, the Irish government hasn't two pennies to rub together, this visit is costing 3 billion euro, so in this case it will see the capitulators deeper in debt.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 11 - 03:54 AM

I prefer an Apolitical figure to a Political one as Head of State.

The current incumbent has performed almost flawlessly for 59 years - the only slip being the failure to judge the public perception of Saint Diana The Martyr following her death - otherwise, a brilliant example of leadership for which she is admired and respected all over the world.

How many elected heads of state attract the same degree of respect and admiration?

If it ain't broke, don't mend it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:18 AM

maybe she wants to buy the Republic and make Harry the Duke of Eire

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:50 AM

'this visit is costing 3 billion euro

Nothing like a bit of the old hyperbole is there?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:34 AM

Will they let her take a peno when she visits the Croker?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Malachy Mullaghmore
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:42 AM

It is with absolute disregard and disrespect for the history, ethos and culture of Cumann Lúthchleas Gael that this divisive political decision has been taken by the leadership of the GAA to invite the British Monarch to Páirc an Chrócaigh with open arms.

In whose name was this decision made and with what consultation and/or approval of the national GAA community? Since when has an independent sporting and cultural organisation of over a hundred years standing been guided by needs of Irelands political classes and their attempt to rewrite history in order to disguise their own economic failings? For how long is the commendable aim of fostering participation in our games amongst all our people going to mean desecrating the very purpose of our existence?...

When Cumann Lúthcleas Gael was formed in 1884 by Michael Cusack and his visionary contempories, Ireland was on its knees as a result of the most thoroughgoing colonisation at the hands of the British Empire in the history of the European continent. The Great Hunger, which was facilitated, aided and abetted by the most ruthless of colonial regimes in Ireland, had claimed the lives of a million and half Gaels and saw nearly 2 and half million more emigrate in poverty and destitution. The Ireland of the 1880's was a place in the throes of a horrific population shift unparalleled in European history. The Irish language was on its last legs and our native games were but a distant memory, as a demoralised people had been brainwashed through 300 years of British colonisation to blame their hardship on their own barbarism and backwardness. The common and most popular narrative told the tale of how the British monarch, her military cronies and political elites were merely trying to 'civilise', educate the poor savages who couldn't do it for themselves.

Therefore, it was when Irish people were to embarrassed and ashamed to admit to speaking Irish and when rugby, soccer and lawn tennis when Irelands only sports, that Michael Cusack et al took the audacious step to form Cumann Lúthcleas Gael. It was the first step in a process of decolonisation; claiming back what was being lost, encouraging people to organise again and stand up on their own two feet, rebuilding the minds and bodies of a battered people. By 1890, there were a 1000 clubs in parishes throughout Ireland which made the CLG, the fastest growing sporting organisation in the world. People followed because they knew they weren't barbarians turned loyal British subjects. People followed because they hoped to revive their own native culture and build a sense of identity and hope. In 1893, Conradh na Gaeilge was formed to revive the Language and it became the fastest growing social movement in Western Europe with 800,000 members by the turn of the century. This cultural movement for decolonisation inspired the movement for Irish independence from British Rule. It inspired The Rising in 1916 and was an engine upon which the revolutionary movement depended.

This is why the British Government in Ireland, with the Blessing of its monarch as head of State attacked CLG headquarters on the notorious Bloody Sunday in November 1920, slaughtering our members. The same establishment had just denied the democratic wishes of the Irish people for self-determination and partitioned the country based on artificially gerrymandered boundaries that would cement their selfish colonial interests in Ireland.

This same British establishment would use our small island as a guinea pig for more horrific colonial practices throughout the world. At late as the 1950's, 1960's, 1970s places like Kenya, Indonesia, and Zimbabwe would suffer in even more brutal circumstances for daring to challenge their own undemocratic subjugation where millions would lose their lives. In more recent times as the British power and influence has waned slightly under the auspices of Neo-American imperialism and its newly named Anglo-American axis; this same establishment in sponsoring indiscriminate political violence on a massive scale in its search for more economic resources to bankroll its greedy empire. Millions have died in Iraq and Afghanistan and thousands die as we speak, as multi-million pound British fighter jets bomb indiscriminately in Libya. Unsurprisingly, this occurs multi-billion pound slaughter occurs as the working people of Britain are being driven to poverty by savage public service cuts. All this carried out in the name of royalty and Empire. In the words of James Connolly 'murder, treachery, adultery, incest, theft, perjury – every crime known to man has been committed by some one or other of the race of monarchs from whom' the current Royal crop are 'proud to trace their descent'.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:55 AM

'In the words of James Connolly 'murder, treachery, adultery, incest, theft, perjury – every crime known to man has been committed by some one or other of the race of monarchs from whom' the current Royal crop are 'proud to trace their descent'.

Adultery......how different from the homelife of our own dear Queen!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 May 11 - 07:57 AM

Alan. Wasn't that quote from an article of Connolly's in which he traced the brutality of the various European royal houses? I recall that he said something about Elizabeth 1 hanging sturdy beggars en masse, before ending with "All hail then the power of the mob"?

All hail indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 May 11 - 08:39 AM

She had the good taste not to wear orange when she laid a wreath at a memorial to Irish patriots.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:04 AM

Personally I can't imagine why they didn't come home that day - quit while they were ahead. You're just waiting with bated breath for Philip to do his Frank Carson impression, or some mad bugger to shoot them.

I'm sorry I lifted the Conolly quote straight from MM's cut and paste job. I admire Conolly of course, but I've never studied him in any depth.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:08 AM

I hate long cut and paste jobs where a link would be more appropriate - and I especially hate cut and paste jobs without attribution.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Stu
Date: 18 May 11 - 10:17 AM

100.

Years on . . .

A chap in a bar in Chicago said to me that if it was left up to the ordinary folks the world would be a better place. Of course that's not practical really, but the truth is that if you're interested in the real truth, don't ask politicians or royals, the small-minded men of violence or soulless golems who'd oppress ideas and perpetuate artificially-rescuscitated tropes and outdated ideas and concepts, including partition and Empire (here's the news: it's over. Here's more news: the 600-odd years of oppression Ireland suffered at the hands of the British and it's own gentry and church was fuck all to do with the Empire).

Education matters, and in the UK we're not taught about the consequences of the Empire. It's not that it's been intentionally wiped from the collective memory of the populace, it's that it's never been taught. I was at school in the 1970's and we were never taught about the effect the British Empire had on the indigenous populations of the countries it conquered. Ignorance is of course no excuse but then the masses in this country have been educated to be good consumers not aware, conscientious citizens; the fact many are is a testament to our parents.

Ireland will be united and whole again, and when that day comes a whole new slaughter will begin as the mindless express themselves the only way they know how; buy making the ordinary people suffer. It was the same with Cromwell, Queen Liza and her ladies, the Black and Tans, the IRA, the UDA, The British Army etc and every other fucker who drew a gun, planted a bomb and harried, beat, intimidated and killed ordinary people on the basis of their political views or their religion or lack thereof or where they lived whatever the fuck.

A million people marched against the Iraq war. As many (and I was one) marched or stood vigil in our towns and cities across the country. What the ordinary people of Britain think make no fucking difference. Remember that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 May 11 - 11:19 AM

Alan Whittle. "I admire Conolly of course, but I've never studied him in any depth."

As far as Marxist thinkers go he wasn't all that original, although he probably did more than anyone of his era to apply Marxist philosophy to the Irish situation, but he was full of quotable quotes. EG.,

"The great appear great because we are on our knees. Let us rise."

"Men are slaves, but women are the slaves of slaves."

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 May 11 - 11:33 AM

Sorry i disagree. I knew about Ireland's disgraceful treatment by the time I was ten - learned in primary school in rural Lincolnshire from a school textbook, the black '49; the fenians, the famine.

I'm sure we didn't learn about every black mark against the empire - new ones are discovered every day - cos the empire went on for a long time - and anyway they had to find time on the curriculum for other things.

I remember a folksinger coming to see me one time in the 1970's (Irish family, like my own) saying he was going to sing The Praties Do grow Small and explain what bastards we English are. I said to him then - Pete, there are bombs going off in Birmingham now - are you going to make yourelf part of this insane comic opera, or try and break free and create something that doesn't reek of bloody murder?

I'd say the same to MM about his life. And add, we never paid you back for sending legions of child abusers over here called teaching brothers, or somesuch.

Bout time to call it quits, wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 11 - 11:49 AM

Malachy,
Can you link to anything that shows the visit to be unpopular?

Re Croke Park visit,
The head of the GAA Christy Cooney said the visit of Queen Elizabeth to Croke Park was an honour for the organisation and for its thousands of of members.

The visit to the stadium, a site steeped in symbolism for nationalists, was specially requested by the President Mary McAleese during the preparations for the royal visit, as a recognition of the GAA's special status in Irish society.

Mr Cooney welcomed the Queen and Prince Philip to the stadium saying the visit "would go down in the history of the GAA".

"We know that in our shared history there have been many tragic events which have inflicted hurt on us all. While acknowledging the significance of the past and honouring all those that have lost their lives, including those that died in this place, the Gaelic Athletic Association has consistently supported and helped advance the peace process in Northern Ireland."

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:27 PM

It's all a bit reminiscent of those football matches which are played in empty stadiums because of worries about crowd violence. All the razzamatazz of a state visit,in eerie silence.

Roll on the day when there can be a more normal type of visit.

It will all be a bit different in a few days when O'Bama comes to pay his respects.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Lox
Date: 18 May 11 - 03:44 PM

Lots of thoughts ...

I thought the laying of the wreath on the memorial to Irelands fallen independance fighters was very moving and was heavy with symbolism and significance, not least because it demonstrated acknowledgement of the legitimacy of that struggle and it honoured people who were viewed at the timne as scum, and who are still viewed by many today as merely the forefathers of a terrorist organization.

But most importantly this act recognized the grief and anger within Irish peoples souls at the horrific crimes committed by the brutish empire.

When I read about Dublin being closed down for her safety, I wondered whether she should have stayed at home.

But ultimately, I think that wounds need to be healed, not endlessly nursed and the queen has had to do a lot of standing around in the rain out of respect for dead Irish men and women as an act of respect and atonement.

In the process she encouraged Britain to pause and reflect and honour those who died under the Iron fist of the occupying army - Ireland has needed that and I for one was touched.

In South Africa, post apartheid, began a process of truth and reconciliation.

The queens acknowledgement of the legitimacy of Irelands heros represents the start of the truth bit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:14 PM

I wonder if she'll conclude her visit with a speech which says how much she has enjoyed her visit and meeting the fine people of Ireland but she wouldn't allow any of her heirs to marry one of them if they're Catholics.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:18 PM

Let's hope you're right lox. I'm not sure I feel that warm about the Queen and I'm English - god knows what the Irish think about her.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:30 PM

Malachy, from Irish Times.
The city centre shops were quiet. Michael Ashe, an assistant manager in Clery's department store on O'Connell Street, confirmed that business was slow, as anticipated, but said he nonetheless "definitely" welcomed the royal visitor.

Many were critical of the protest by socialist republican group Éirigí, with one woman making an unsuccessful attempt to encourage others to chant: "The Queen is welcome." Student Úna Dowling said the protest "doesn't exactly give Ireland a good face".

At the bottom of O'Connell Street, Swedish tourist Ebba Nygrem had her bag checked. "I'm a bit surprised about the whole situation," she said. "I don't even know what people are upset about."

A strawberry vendor on Henry Street, Elizabeth Walshe, complained there was "no one in town" to purchase her wares, but she also insisted she welcomed the visit.

Connolly Station was busy enough. Nearby on Amiens Street, Phyllis Kehoe from Kilbarrack was returning from a quick shopping trip to Henry Street, which she found unusually quiet and observed that trade was "very slack". Gardaí were "very friendly and chatty", she said.

Born and reared in Dublin's inner city, Ms Kehoe warmly welcomed the Queen's visit. "If we're not healed now, darling, we'll never be healed. What's done is done, as the song says."

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:31 PM

Vox pops in papers are actually completely meaningless. Just a lazy way of filling space.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:38 PM

Wasn't the queen invited to go?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:40 PM

Kevin, do you not trust IT to give a representative sample?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:48 PM

Vox pops in newspapers don't set out to be "a representative sample". A reporter just asks a few random people a question, and uses the best quotes.

It's nothing to with opinion polls, which set out to do something somepletely different.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:51 PM

And I suspect that an opinion poll on this would in fact indicate that quite a high proportion of people in Ireland feel at ease about the Queen's visit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Lox
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:52 PM

"At the bottom of O'Connell Street, Swedish tourist Ebba Nygrem had her bag checked. "I'm a bit surprised about the whole situation," she said. "I don't even know what people are upset about.""

How very revealing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:00 PM

Was the Queen invited or not?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: michaelr
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:28 PM

No, she forced her way in. It's an invasion!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Ed T
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:31 PM

Who is/was more welcome, the Queen, or the Pope? They both seem to be heads of state and of churches?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 11 - 01:05 AM

So the Irish Times has used its vox pops to suggest the exact opposite of the real situation?
Why would they?
You three, McG, Lox, Malachy, want us to believe the visit is not so popular.
Why can you find no evidence for that?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 19 May 11 - 02:04 AM

michaelr :-)

Things seemed to have gone very well, and lets hope it leads to a positive peace for the future, for everybodys sake.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 May 11 - 04:55 AM

Les....you saw the footage - the empty Croke Park.

I mean lets really cement good relations - lets put the soldiers of the Queen on the streets of Norther Ireland as goodwill ambassadors!

She's obviously as welcome as Hirohito was in England, or as the saying goes as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit.

A friendly respectful distance is what we should be aiming for - somewhere in the mid-distance, way out of sight as yet.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 11 - 05:02 AM

Croke Park was not open to the public when the Queen toured the stadium

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 11 - 05:28 AM

"So the Irish Times has used its vox pops to suggest the exact opposite of the real situation?

I don't think you read my post saying "...I suspect that an opinion poll on this would in fact indicate that quite a high proportion of people in Ireland feel at ease about the Queen's visit," Keith.

My point was that vox pops should not be treated as if they were opinion polls, not that the Irish Times were faking them. Of course some tabloids sometimes do just that, which is one reason why it's right to emphasize the distinction I made there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Seayaker
Date: 19 May 11 - 08:50 AM

There's a rumour that she has bought a bodrhan and is heading for Bannerboy's session

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 19 May 11 - 10:09 AM

A very telling image, that motorcade making its way through empty streets; the contrast between this and the enthusiasm with which President O'Bama will soon be greeted should put the British Monarchy in its place. There's something deeply distasteful in holding a Banquet for people who have known nothing but privilege whilst there are many among the population at large who struggle to make ends meet, even to keep a roof over their heads and those of their children. No doubt Ireland has to play its part in this international game, but I can't help wishing the ould Queen had been served up a plate of potatoes, in their jackets, with a wee pile of salt in the middle of a plain deal board. Scrubbed clean, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 19 May 11 - 11:58 AM

I `ad that Paddy O` Reilly in my cab the other day. `e was really into one. `is face was the colour of beetroot, just as if someone `ad nicked all the shamrock.
I said, "What`s up, Pat? You lost your shinty stick or something?".
`e said, " Nah, Jim. It`s your blooming Queen, begorrah. There she is, traipsing around Erin, up to `er neck with privilege and without a thought for all us who have suffered 800 years of tyranny".
I said, "You`re `aving a laugh, Pat. You`ve lived over `ere all your life, raised a family and the only time you shout "Come on Ireland" is at the Six Nations Rugby. If Brenda and `er mob are not to your liking, why are you still `ere".
`e said, "Jim, `ave you seen the state of their economy??".

Whaddam I Like??

Using multiple identities is not permitted. This post was done by John from Elsie's Band, also known as John from Emding. You may use one ID only.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Lox
Date: 19 May 11 - 09:09 PM

"You three, McG, Lox, Malachy, want us to believe the visit is not so popular.
Why can you find no evidence for that? "



eh?

What are you on about Keith?


Can you provide evidence of me wanting anyone to believe anything?


You have a vivid imagination or was it just a hallucination.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 May 11 - 09:40 PM

Well, at least the Queen had a day off so she could see some fancy race horses. I understand she's more fond of horses than members of her own family. Can't say that I blame her.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 May 11 - 03:52 AM

She's coming to Cork today. Lots of security operations in place, gardai everywhere, but no particular heavy vibes floating around that I've picked up on - though of course you only see whatever you happen to see, so obviously I can't speak for the whole city. But it feels calm enough and nobody that I've spoken to is complaining or protesting. Times are moving on and folks here have other pressing concerns to deal with.

I think she's due to arrive in a few hours. I was in town yesterday, will be in town again tomorrow, but am out in the farmhouse today so will miss it.

One of my ex-students played harp for her at the first official state dinner in Dublin. Why don't I get gigs like that? Think of all that free food...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Seayaker
Date: 20 May 11 - 09:23 AM

The lunchtime news showed welcoming crowds in Cork with a few union flags even, and people interveiwed thought it was a positive step forward. No crowds of protesters (and I'm sure they would have been shown as they make good television)

A very small minority of people are so emeshed in the past that they don't want to move on. That was then, this is now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: harmonic miner
Date: 20 May 11 - 09:37 AM

"...that motorcade making its way through empty streets;..."

Eh... the streets are empty because they are closed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 May 11 - 10:58 AM

The streets are indeed closed, even to pedestrians. We've been notified about this repeatedly, well in advance. I walked through the city centre last night from the music school I teach in (on one of the south quays) to the north of the river where I had a lift waiting. Even though the streets weren't yet blocked off (except that you were not allowed to park anywhere) it was like the Marie Celeste! Everybody thought there would be massive traffic congestion so they all just avoided the city centre - including my lift, who usually picks me up at school, which is how I came to be walking through town.

You really can't judge things by photos showing the streets: there are a lot of restricted access rules in place. This is the biggest security operation in the entire history of the State, involving the armed forces as well as the gardai. I've just had a harp student leave my house in east County Cork (I'm teaching privately at home today) who travelled up from the city, and she said everything was "grand". (Mind you, they had to come around the ring road, the only open through route, which avoids the centre. But they do live there.)

Like it or hate it, the fact this royal visit can take place at all tells you something about the progress that's been made in relations between the two nations. The current state of affairs is an improvement on the past one, and people's attitudes by and large reflect this. The only way the present is going to be better than the past is if people LET IT.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 20 May 11 - 11:42 AM

Eh... "empty streets".   I know very well they were closed off for security reasons; there have been complaints from Dublin shopkeepers on RTE about how much trade they'll have lost as a consequence. There were also rumours - not denied, as far as I'm aware - that armed British agents were also at hand (not unprecedented in Dublin...). While I wouldn't turn on my heel to see the Queen if she were at the end of the street, people can wave their wee flags if they want to, it's a harmless enough amusement. And, as Brendan Behan said, there are those in Ireland who would eat cooked Kenyan if they thought the Quality in England were doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 May 11 - 12:55 PM

'This is the biggest security operation in the entire history of the State, involving the armed forces as well as the gardai'

It probably was, given it lasted four days and there was quite an itinerary involved. Clare remembers what happened when George W. came to Dromoland a few years ago.

It's not unusual to go to extreme measures during these visits.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 May 11 - 02:12 PM

"Like it or hate it, the fact this royal visit can take place at all tells you something about the progress that's been made in relations between the two nations. The current state of affairs is an improvement on the past one, and people's attitudes by and large reflect this. The only way the present is going to be better than the past is if people LET IT. "

Well said Bonnie. I hope for everybodies sake that things will move forward in a peaceful manner for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: michaelr
Date: 20 May 11 - 05:16 PM

Union flags in rebel Cork? The shame of it!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:45 AM

The Irish are always moaning about something!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 May 11 - 10:15 AM

Bonzo3legs. The Irish are always moaning about something!!

Yeah. Usually about all the people who are moaning about them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 May 11 - 04:46 PM

A bomb did go off in Derry a few hours ago, in a busy shopping area on a Saturday afternoon when crowds of people were there. Fortunately, someone had phoned in a warning so they evacuated the building(s) and no one was hurt. Without that prior alert, I don't like to think what the casualty rate could have been, what permanent injuries and mutilations.

I haven't researched it, but it's hard not to think that this is a gesture seeking to make some statement about the Queen's visit. Not just that she was in the Republic, at the invitation of the President, but that the whole undertaking has been a success. The attempted bombing was reported to have been carried out by "dissident republicans opposed to the peace process". Not the British per se. The peace process itself.

The memory of the past does need to be kept alive. But the hatreds do not. One is not the same thing as the other. Only for a stroke of luck, more innocent blood would have been splattered today because of those who cannot tell the difference between the two. Now: without cheating and looking it up on Google, who can tell which of these speakers is the DUP First Minister and which is the Sinn Féin First Minister (one of them calls it Derry and the other Londonderry, a dead giveaway, so I have changed both names to Derry):   

The perpetrators of this disgusting attack have no regard for human life. The people of Derry and of Northern Ireland have made it clear in our recent elections that they have no wish to return to the dark days of the past. There is no support for those who wish to destroy and divide us with this type of evil and callous attack. They will not succeed.

- - -

Those who carried out the attack had no mandate. Those who carried it out need to realise that such an attack only hardens our resolve to ensure that peace survives and continues to flourish. The people of Derry have worked hard to build a city that is peaceful and inclusive. Their hard work will not be undone by today's mindless act.


See what I mean? They could be interchangeable. What does that tell you?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:05 PM

so the tour went with a bang, as predicted.

That's why i think it was a rubbish idea. people are pretty nice on mudcat - but even here the resentment of the English and their part in the history of Ireland is often apparent.

So what is the symbolic embodiment of English History and the lady who was head of the British Empire going to represent to Irish republicans?

To many the visit was bound to be bloody annoying and to others a positive incitement to anger. I think it was insensitive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: caitlin rua
Date: 22 May 11 - 03:02 AM

Alan, how much time have you actually spent in Ireland? More to the point, how recently and for how long? You just seem out of touch. Things aren't the same here anymore. It's not just a case of a few Mudcat people being 'nice'.

Yes of COURSE there is still resentment in some quarters, that's too obvious to even need stating. But a lot of times it's the outsiders who are seeking to cling to all the past anger. People here have new angers. And most of us are moving on. Yes, plenty are still anti-British and wouldn't welcome the Queen. But they tend to be the older population, which is dying out. And mostly they just talk and grumble. They know same as the rest of us that there's nothing realistic they can do, because the time for doing it is past and gone. The overall public reaction to her visit tells the story, even if you don't seem to want to recognise it. The proof lies in the fact that the "positive incitement" you spoke of didn't incite much. And please remember, it was our president's idea to invited her. What signal do you think refusing would have sent?

The whole Celtic Tiger thing changed Ireland forever, and that includes influencing people's political thinking. Now we have been betrayed by someone much closer to home and the old resentments and losses have been outweighed by new ones. (Note, I didn't say 'replaced by'.) But you can only handle so much emotional energy. It's a no-brainer as to which is going to come first, dealing with current and unfinished issues which are affecting us and our children's lives now, or old ones which are over & done with, that we can do nothing about.

What is this going to represent to Irish republicans? That most of the citizens of this country, even those of us who would like to see a 32-county Ireland, want to move forward in the most positive and realistic - and humane - way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:58 AM

Nice post Caitlin. As I have said on previous posts, may you all see an everlasting peace. You so deserve it.

Not very often I disgree with my very good freind Al, but most of these attrocities were done well before we were born and there is nothing we can do about it. What we can do, is make sure it doesn't happen again and move forward in a feindly way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:02 AM

A good result of this visit destroys the argument that a future head of state (of the UK) cannot be a president and that monarchy is the best bet. Mary McAleese was supberb and handled every situation with great aplomb and dignity .. and she was elected.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:33 AM

Can't agree with you there Jim.

She might be great, but who's to say what the next person might be like. Could be an evil git. I think I would prefer to stay the way things are here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:39 AM

Elections are no guarantee of anything. How do you think we got lumbered with Bertie and his pals? At least royalty's powers are limited these days.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:51 AM

A good result of this visit destroys the argument that a future head of state (of the UK) cannot be a president and that monarchy is the best bet.

I'm no fan of the royal family but I'd think say president Maggie Thatcher or president Tony Blair worse...

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: caitlin rua
Date: 22 May 11 - 06:21 AM

@Bonzo3legs:

In the immortal words of the Bard:

Don't criticise what you can't understand

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:03 AM

Well its done now anyway. As you say - what i know about ireland , you could write on a postage stamp.

Let's hope you are right and its one of the signals to a more happy and peaceful future.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:19 AM

Caitlin Rua. If Bonzo 3 Legs stopped criticising what he doesn't understand, I doubt if he'd be left with very much to say about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:21 AM

Well Arthu itis, a president has to be elected on his or her merits unlike royalty. As someone said would you go to a heredity dentist? It is impossible for someone to stand om a Repulican ticket in the UK as, if elected by thousands of people, they cannot take office without swearing allegiance to the current monarch or all of his/hers offspring. Do we have a democracy or not?

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 07:26 AM

Obviously you don't think so Jim. However there are more people that support the Royal Family than you seem to think.

I am quite happy to leave things as they are. We have so many buffoons from all parties trying to run our country. Wouldn't trust any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:09 AM

Let me see. Have I got this right? If we stick with the monarchy we have no say over who will replace the present incumbent. Irrespective of whether that person is capable of doing the job, or turns out to be the biggest buffoon on earth, we just have to suffer them? And that's good?

On the other hand, we could go for a president, democratically elected by the will of the majority, to serve for a fixed term. Under this arangement the president's tenure would be democratically reviewed by the people at the end of this period and he/she kicked out if they weren't up to the job. And that's bad? Jeez! What a topsy turvy world we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:10 AM

I have no illusion about the amount of people who support the royal family. My last point was about democracy. The present system makes it impossible to be a republican MP. If an MP has republican sympathies he/she has to take the oath of allegiance with some stupid show of disagreement like crossing one's fingers when taking the oath.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:14 AM

Glad I don't have your ideals Fred.

At this point I will stop discussing as I see little point. Not everybody has your dogmatic approach and isn't it strange that there are a very small group of people on Mudcat who just seem hell bent on getting rid of Royalty and the conservatives, just because they have such an ingrained attitude to anything that doesn't suit them.

Enjoy the rest of your debating and moaning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 May 11 - 09:02 AM

'Enjoy the rest of your debating and moaning.'

Well we don't all have the emotional outlet afforded to Aston Villa fans for debating and moaning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 May 11 - 11:07 AM

Arthur_itus; "Glad I don't have your ideals Fred"

Likewise. But isn't it a pity that those of us who want to see a republic instead of the present shambles can't enter into a democratic discussion without being accused of moaning.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 03:46 PM

Fred, I think Arthur itus realised he had no reasonable answer to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:08 PM

Sorry gents but I think it is now up to the younger generation to decide the future, not you or me. older peope may be wise at times, but they bear all the traits of being grumpy and biased.

My daughters who are 16 and 19 both like the Royal family and so do many younger people. Maybe you should listen to yourselves. What exactly is it that you want to leave younger people. It's not your call anymore, neither is it mine.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:48 PM

===But isn't it a pity that those of us who want to see a republic instead of the present shambles can't enter into a democratic discussion without being accused of moaning.===

Fair enough, Fred; a reasoned debate. a 'democratic disucussion' as you put it, is just what we need. But don't forget we once fell out because I considered it not in the best of taste, or in the best interests of reasoned debate or 'democratic discussion', when you once led off a thread with the assertion that a news item about the Royal Family had immediately made you "want to throw up". A bit more reason would be perfectly welcome; but when you, & the others over on your side of the argument, habitually express yourselves in such immoderate terms, such isn't that easy to achieve. If that isn't 'moaning' what is? And that, I take it, is precisely the attitude and mode of expression to which Arthur is referring by his use of the term.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:57 PM

That's interesting, Arthur itus as I was speaking to a nephew who said just the same. He said the young people of Scotland will be the ones who decide the next parliament and they all are for independence. The older lot are Labour although there is also a big Republican movement in the Scottish Labour ranks. I don't know whether you saw the inaugeration of the Scottish MPs but a Labour member, when taking the obligatory oath of allegiance to the Crown, said he wanted to be a citizen, not a subject. I don't know if you're coming from an English point of view but Scotland is definitely going in a different direction. This is not to say, however, that you should not have your own point of view. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:10 PM

Well I am not labour or conservative. they are all the same.

However, I do think that we should stop thrusting our long developed grudges on to other people (namely the young).

I am English and proud of it. I would rather have a Royal family than not.

I can see things going very wrong if Scotland breaks from England. However, if that's what they want, then good luck. Do we send all Scottish people that take our jobs in England, back up to Scotland when that happens?

Sometimes, I think hatred stops people thinking sensibly

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 May 11 - 05:41 PM

Deary me!

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 May 11 - 06:24 PM

"Do we send all Scottish people that take our jobs in England, back up to Scotland when that happens?"

The SNP's stance is that anyone legally living in Scotland at the time of independence would be offered citizenship, regardless of race, religion or place of birth, and if they didn't wish to take it then their rights of residence etc wouldn't be affected. I'm sure the rump UK would be no different. Besides percentage wise there are far more English born people in Scotland. 400,000 or so out of 5 million folk.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:43 AM

The number of Scottish people livig in England are 794,577

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:44 AM

That was in 2008. So probably more now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:54 AM

Interesting website http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usscotfax/society/scottish.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Stu
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:18 AM

"What exactly is it that you want to leave younger people. It's not your call anymore, neither is it mine."

No, it's all been fucked up by the oldies and now the youngsters can clear up the mess. I think you'll find they'll have lots more on their mind than dealing with a bunch of parasitic aristocrats.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:20 AM

Malachi will no doubt be posting to complain about this loss of trade when Derry was closed down last week.

"There were numerous people walking past the glass-fronted building, and if we had not evacuated that building, we would have been looking at mass fatalities."

Mr Burrows said the alert meant that "effectively the whole city centre was closed down".

"We estimate there was hundreds of thousands of pounds of lost trade," he said."

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 23 May 11 - 06:40 AM

' am English and proud of it. I would rather have a Royal family than not.'

When you say a royal family, does that mean any royal family. Not necessarily THE royal family. Would any royal family do?

the danish one is better looking - perhaps they would swap.

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 May 11 - 07:20 AM

LOL.

Perhaps the Danish ones would do me. I don't care as long as they are relatively harmless.

The thing I do not want is new vacancies for "ambitious" politicians (and perhaps their "business associates" too).

Subject: RE: BS: The Queen to visit to Irish Republic
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 May 11 - 08:08 AM

Yep, we'll have them as well Al. Good call there.