BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM

Ehmm Silas I think in this case the compound had been under observation for quite some time. The numbers of men, women and children in the compound were known.

The men would definitely be classified as combatants (armed or not)

The women would be classified as potential combatants depending on what the observation team reported

The children would be classified as non-combatants

THAT SILAS OLD SON IS HOW THE ELITE SOLDIERS WOULD KNOW

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 05:35 PM

I think you are living in a fantasy world mate.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 07:44 PM

""Wonder what they would be like in a hostage situation.""

We know exactly. Remember the female aid worker in Afghanistan?

It wasn't long ago.

Seems they tossed a grenade into a building containing a hostage and, surprise surprise, it killed her.

At first they claimed the other side killed her, but American grenade fragments would have been hard to explain away, so they came clean.

Makes you think though! If they were going to blow her up, the whole business was a bit pointless.

Still, what the hell, they got the kidnappers so that's all right then.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 12:44 AM

Fantasy world Silas?

"bin Laden's" location identified to within 12 miles by Afghan Intelligence in 2004.

"bin Laden's" location identified to the city/town they actually found "him" in in 2007.

"bin Laden's" compound identified in August 2010

"bin Laden's" presence confirmed and compound attacked on 2nd May 2011.

Now what was my fanasty world version again? Oh yes it ran something like this:

"I think in this case the compound had been under observation for quite some time. The numbers of men, women and children in the compound were known.

The men would definitely be classified as combatants (armed or not)

The women would be classified as potential combatants depending on what the observation team reported

The children would be classified as non-combatants

THAT SILAS OLD SON IS HOW THE ELITE SOLDIERS WOULD KNOW"

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 12:48 AM

Don T, that would be the rescue attempt where her captors moved her at the last minute and she broke free and hid in a room in the compound that was presumed at the briefing to be empty, or if people were detected there (infra-red) they were to be presumed as enemy?

Of course errors and mistakes are made in the real world, yes things do go wrong, except for you of course who never fail and never make any mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 05:05 AM

Yes matey, fantasy world. You know almost nothing but are very big on your assumptions.
Strikes me that the way that they differentiate between combatants and non-combatants are the ones that were shot were, the ones that were not wern't.

You will have to admit that the good old US do not have a very happy record in these matters and incidents of 'friendly fire'

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 08:19 AM

Well Silas, all things are relative including knowledge and "almost nothing" is a damn sight better than being completely and utterly clueless as you have more than adequately demonstrated that you are.

But as you have not been able to directly challenge one single "assumption" of mine (most of which are known fact) I do not think that I need respond to any more of your idiotic ramblings.

Most in the world, including myself, are absolutely delighted that this sorry piece of sh*t has been got rid off, he was undeniably a complete and utter waste of space and oxygen, the world is a far better place without him.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 08:27 AM

"Known Fact"

Really?

The only known facts are that they went in, carlessly lost a helicopter, shot dead and injred a number of people, one of which was supposed to be Bin Laden, and came out again.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 09:46 AM

Psst Silas, looks as though a few more of my assumptions were in fact perfectly correct:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/15/pakistan-arrests-five-spying-cia

"The CIA hideout in Abbottabad was set up some time after last August, when the CIA began to suspect Bin Laden could be hiding in the area, less than a mile from a major Pakistani military facility.

Watching from behind mirrored glass, CIA officials used telephoto lenses and infra-red imaging equipment to establish a "pattern of life" inside the compound and eavesdropped on voices inside. But they never conclusively identified Bin Laden."

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM

I still fail to see what relavence this has, however, as you say, they had been spying since August and still had no positive ID. Quite remarkable then that they new who were the combatants even though they could not even identify the one person they were looking for...

This quote from the same article is interesting, isn't it?
"A senior Pakistani official said the dispute represented a clash between "Pakistani hyper-nationalism and American arrogance"."

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 11:15 AM

So Silas add up the bits and pieces so far and what do you get?

1: Suspect compound under close observation for nine months, the construction of the compound was unique, eight times the size of adjacent compounds but with no telephone or internet facilities -

"The bottom line of our collection and analysis was that we had high confidence that the compound held a high-value terrorist target. There was a strong probability that it was bin Laden.";

2: Pattern of behaviour and routine of life inside the compound mapped and logged, visitors identified and no doubt checked up on. Replica of the compound built to aid training of the attack team.

3: No positive, or definitive ID on bin Laden obtained by those watching from the house nearby does not mean that there was no positive ID period. IIRC Barack Obama said that he waited until he got positive ID before giving the operation the go-ahead, that positive ID could have come from other sources;

4: US Navy SEAL Team were relieved of any order to capture bin Laden alive, if he surrendered then all well and good, if not then kill him.

5: A man shot in the face (left eye) whilst fleeing towards the threat he was confronted with? DNA for bin Laden supplied by Saudi Authorities matched that of the body 100%, bin Laden's son was present ans was also killed, photgraphs taken were run through facial recognition programmes again 100% match, bin Laden's wife identified the remains as being those of Osama bin Laden.

6: Five people were killed Osama bin Laden, Hamza bin Laden, a male courier, couriers brother and one woman.

7: None of the helicopters used in the raid were meant to land inside the compound. There was no crash, the special Chinook suffered a mechanical problem it had to land, a reserve machine was called in and the damaged machine was deliberately destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 11:47 AM

Identifying non combatants would not be as hard as you suggest Silas.
When the helicopters landed outside the compound and the shooting started, they would be the ones hiding under cover.

What would you be doing?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM

Keith, it's not identifing 'non-combatents that is the problem, its identifying 'combatents'. However, it seems to me that they wern't too bothered anyway and we have to assume that if they were shot, they were combatents.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 12:57 PM

The body count argues against tha Silas.
And, not one of the children was even injured.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM

"And, not one of the children was even injured."

And they are to be congratulated for THAT?????


A bunch of well armed highly trained troops bursts into a residential compound who's residents are almost certainly unarmed, they seem to kill indiscriminatly, but its OK becaus etyhey missed killing the kids.

What a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 02:15 PM

Silas, since when was that a "residential compound" and not a headquarters for Al Qaeda?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM

If they killed indiscriminately you would expect more deaths and a broader range of victims.
As I said, the non combatants had plenty of time to hide away.
I would be very suspicious of anyone standing to meet such an assault.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 05:26 PM

"A bunch of well armed highly trained troops bursts into a residential compound who's residents are almost certainly unarmed, they seem to kill indiscriminately"

As an execise in cock-eyed logic this takes the biscuit.

How was it the CIA Observation Team and the analysts described the place again:

"The bottom line of our collection and analysis was that we had high confidence that the compound held a high-value terrorist target. There was a strong probability that it was bin Laden."

All of a sudden it becomes simply "a residential compound" !!! What with 18ft walls, double security gates, no outside windows, no telephone, no internet connection in a 1 million US$ property!!!

"Whose resident's are most certainly unarmed"!!! What are you drinking?? I take it that you can say (straight-faced) with the same degree of certainty that high value terrorist targets always leave their guns at the office when they pack up work for the day??

"Killed indiscriminately"??? What are you talking about 24 or 25 people inside that compound and only five end up dead, the four men and one woman.

Finally figured out how bin Laden got shot in the face and how the woman got killed. Rumour central states that bin Laden used a woman as a shield. Osama bin Laden was shot in the left-eye facing what he perceived to be the main threat. Was he standing behind the woman peeking out over her left shoulder when he got shot? Did the same burst or second shot kill the woman?

5 out of 25 = 20% when there was a potential of 44% being combatants does not tally up to the firing or killing being indiscriminate.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 04:20 AM

Yes, residential compound, nothing anyone has said changes that, there were men women and children living there. High value terrorist target< well they had been watching it for nine months and were still unable to identifyu OBL. Headquaters for AQ? with no phone opr internet connection? You ARE joking?

They have confirmed that OBL was NOT hiding behind a woman - so think again Mr T and try to come up with another fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:26 AM

"headquaters for AQ? with no phone opr internet connection? You ARE joking?"
That was the significance of hte couriers Silas.

'Phone or internet opens them up to tracing.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:12 AM

It being impossible, of course, to itercept a courier...

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:23 AM

A courier could well be intercepted, but you would know it had happened, and would trust him to withold your location as long as he could.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:36 AM

Yeah right. Perhaps they had carrier pigions? Or possibly somke signals?

I really don't think it likley that this would be AQ headquaters, in fact, the very idea is laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:44 AM

Silas, you're being a total jerk, the US won this round, the terrorists lost, live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:18 AM

bobad, don't bother, I value not your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 10:29 AM

Nor anyone else's bar your own it would seem Silas

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 10:31 AM

Silas and others seem to base their understanding of commando raids on the screenplay of "The Dirty Dozen." (Or is it "Inglourious Basterds"?)

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:12 PM

Silas, the absence of 'phone and internet in an upmarket residence is an anomaly.
Who else would use couriers in preference?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 04:28 PM

"the US won this round, the terrorists lost, live with it."

What did they win ??

It's still the same sh&t as it was the day before he was shot. Is the world a safer place, has the fighting stopped, has the hatred stopped, has the paranoia stopped, is there now peace and stability in the Afghani, in Iraq .... ??

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:34 PM

For the ordinary people of both life is better now than it has been at any time since 14th April 1978 as far as Afghanistan is concerned and 22nd July 1979 as far as Iraq is concerned

As a member of the general public in both countries you stand 97% better chance of not dying a violent death today in Afghanistan and a 90% better chance of not dying a violent death today in Iraq.

Is the world a safer place? The world has never been a safe place, is it safer today because bin Laden is dead? Yes it probably is in the long term.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 07:09 PM

The world is no safer now that bin Laden has met his demise. Bin Laden's Relevance was long dead by the time the those commandos got to him. It's still a barrel of sh%t in the mideast. It's is a lot more complicated than just fighting terrorism.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 01:41 AM

The world is certainly no safer for would be terrorists, and more important for those who would, as Governments or regimes, support them.

As far as the world in general goes? The Universities of Vancouver and Uppsala disagree with you Bill, their studies (2007) indicate that the World is safer today than it was 25 years ago.

As far as Afghanistan was concerned bin Laden became irrelevant in 2001, yet we still had many ridiculing the US Government, US Intelligence Agencies and US Military over their failure to kill or capture their declared Public Enemy No.1 - Those people are not laughing now, and as information trickles out we now know that far from being clueless, inept and incompetent:

1: bin Laden's whereabouts as to area was pinpointed to within 12 miles in 2004.

2: bin Laden's whereabouts wrt the town/city and knowledge of his means of communication was identified and focused in on in 2007.

3: bin Laden's whereabouts as to his exact location was identified in August 2010.

All the result of good, painstaking, patient intelligence work.

The US Security and Intelligence Agencies identified the threat of asymmetric attacks resulting from the formation of an "axis of evil" in 1997 and reported the same to President Bill Clinton. The "Axis of Evil" was misreported in the UK media as being something involving Iraq, Iran & North Korea, whereas the "Axis of Evil" as reported to the President was:

A "rogue state" or regime with an anti-US agenda and access to WMD or WMD materials and/or technology allying itself to an international terrorist group to mount an anonymous attack on the USA that could not be traced back to that "rogue state" or regime.

Actions taken by the USA subsequent to the attacks of 11th September, 2001 sent the message to any would be terrorist group and to any would be "rogue regime" that any "axis of evil" game plan would not work. US action against Iraq in 2003 dissuaded the would be "rogue states".

As far as the fight against terrorism goes the killing of bin Laden WAS a victory, an undeniable "win" for the US that must be galling for its detractors, in this bobad is perfectly correct.

"It's still a barrel of sh%t in the mideast."

When has it been anything else? It is up to the people of the middle-east to sort out. Had the Arabs of the middle-east followed the example set by the people of Israel in 1949 then there would have been no bloodshed. However they did not, they chose to fight, they chose violence as a means to deliver impossible promises to the people they shut up in refugee camps (on land actually owned by the refugees themselves) and kept in deliberate despair and poverty, to be used as political pawns.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 09:10 AM

If you seriously think the killing of OBL will make the world a safer place you are a bigger fool than I thought you were. You must by now have some idea of the mindset of these people, do you really think that there will be no retaliation, do you not think that this retaliation will make 911 look like a fly swat, because I do.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 07:01 PM

Bin Laden charges formally dropped

Whoooops .... but we just shot him !!


biLL .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 07:39 PM

"Typically, court indictments are dismissed when the defendant dies or is convicted on other unrelated cases. Such requests to drop charges are procedural and routine."

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 09:47 PM

Bobad .... I'm aware of that. But when you stand back a bit. Look at that headline, you can't but help but ponder ... from all sides of the arguments ... the insanity of mankind.

oh well


at least he had his day in court.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 10:22 PM

I hate to agree with t-Bird but...

...bin Laden's death will certainly make recruiting a lot harder...

Glad he is gone...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 10:31 PM

Not being of the hand wringing persuasion I'll have to agree with Bobert
'Glad he is gone..."

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Jun 11 - 10:57 PM

For you guys that agree .... can we now loosen up the security at airports, and border crossings into the U.S. ... if not, then why not?


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 01:59 AM

Hey, guys, let's get down to the nitty-gritty here.

Anybody REALLY want bin Laden back?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:47 AM

"...bin Laden's death will certainly make recruiting a lot harder..."

Are you seriously suggesting that his eath will make recruitment to AQ harder?

I suggest that you look at the history of this sort of thing - particularly the aftermath of Bloody Sunday in N. Ireland.

THis 'Gotcha' mentality is for the playground, is dosent work in real life.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 10:01 AM

""As far as the world in general goes? The Universities of Vancouver and Uppsala disagree with you Bill, their studies (2007) indicate that the World is safer today than it was 25 years ago.""

So they feel the World has become safer because of something which happened between 1982 and 2007, you ignore the collapse of the Soviet Union and the subsequent end of the "Cold War", and blithely assume that the death of ObL in 2011 has caused them to come to that conclusion four years before it happened.

Stunning!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 01:31 PM

No-one assumed that Don dear.

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 11:11 AM

Hey, all you celebrants of assassination! This one's for you!
Kuma Games, Inc's video game
Kuma War 107:Osama 2011
Each player is a Navy Seal, armed to the teeth & equipped with night vision, creeping up those stairs in Abbotabad!
Per Kieth Halper, CEO of Kuma Games sez"People feel relieved that Osama's gone. To be able to re-create his death is just an added bonus."

Get Yours Today!

http://www.kumagames.com/osama_2011.html

Gee, ya think that Osama may have had something in despising the U.S. as a degraded state & exporter of cultural toxins?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Silas
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 11:24 AM

Greg, that is pretty sick. I assume it is a 'real' game?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 12:01 PM

That game .... sick.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 12:23 PM

You betcha its real!

Check http://www.kumagames.com/osama_2011.html

USA! USA! Proud To Be An Amerikun!!!

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 11 - 04:40 PM

I note with interest that I appear to have been right about the relationships between the government of Pakistan and that of the USA in relation to the US "incursion": I win the prize of, what was it, $800 million?

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:30 AM

The New Yorker Magazine has just published what appears to be a well-researched article on the raid and its planning: Click here for story

The details of this evolving story are always fascinating to the history buffs.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Aug 11 - 12:59 PM

Thanks for that Charley