BS: Ayn Rand

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 03:12 PM

Deckman, I agree with you. The vitriol seems to mess up threads that could otherwise be a place of good info and input. I agree that the snide remarks we uncalled for......perhaps, he should read a little Tolstoy, as per suggested.

GfS

P.S. I just scrolled up to re-read my posts....nothing in them to warrant the issue of which you speak. Just ignorant reactions....politically based, I'm sure!
Nonetheless, I wasn't enamored by Rand's writings, though for a while, a lot of folks alluded to some of her ideas. I thought them a slice between Sci-Fi and futuristic imaginings. I liked them less than Robert Heinlein, who I thought brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 03:16 PM

Are Marx's predictions not showing signs of being realised?

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 03:36 PM

Hmm..... Truth = vitriol.

We're getting a bit Orwellian, no?

Maybe we should bring George into the discussion......

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 03:41 PM

Or Anthony Burgess?

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:39 PM

Little Hawk, I hope this answers what you asked at 21 Jan 12 - 06:08 p.m. If not, lemme know.

Frankly, I think that most people here who are calling Ayn Rand a poor writer heard bad things about her before they tried reading any of her books, and thus, started with a prejudiced eye. By ANY literary standard, she at least started out as very good writer. Her style is more in the line of writers such as Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, or Victor Hugo, at least in her earlier novels such as We the Living and The Fountainhead. But then, if you don't like Tolstoy on literary grounds, you probably aren't going to like Ayn Rand either. It wasn't until Atlas Shrugged that she went off the rails and came out with a thousand-page political polemic with the plot-style of a comic book requiring huge speech balloons. She should have bypassed Atlas Shrugged and gone straight to non-fiction, which is what she later did.

The problem is not with her ability as a writer, it's with WHAT she writes.

As to her knowledge of philosophy, whether she misunderstood or misinterpreted it is open to argument—and that argument would be based more on whether one agreed or disagreed with her conclusions than with the extent of her knowledge of philosophy in general, or lack thereof. She certainly read widely in the field and was very knowledgeable in it—able to quote people like Plato, Aristotle, Hume, Berkeley, Locke, Russell, and others right off the top of her head. And she gave one of the clearest explanations of what might be called "the division of labor" (the three major fields—Metaphysics, Epistemology, and Ethics) and the kind of questions each one asks in the formal study of philosophy that I have ever heard. And that includes in the number of philosophy courses I took as academic credits and electives at the University of Washington.

Although she trashed Fredrich Nietzsche's view of the Ûbermensch (Superman), because Nietzsche envisioned him as operating on instinct ("Blood and Bowels") rather than rationally and logically, she had a sort of Ûbermensch herself.

Nietzsche's idea of the ideal human was a lot like Conan the Barbarian on steroids.

Ayn Rand's "Ideal Man" was a supremely rational man and was, among other things, a creative genius with a faraway look in his eyes; a visionary, dressed in a business suit and carrying a slide rule. A creator. An inventor. A pioneer. Someone who could change the world for the better.

If only the leeches and the bureaucrats would leave him free to do it!

All of her heroes were extraordinarily talented, self-made men. And this is Ayn Rand's idea of what the America businessman truly is!

The Koch Brothers? Wall Street brokers? Bankers? Chairman of the Board of AIG?

The world in Ayn Rand's novels, and apparently in her mind, is a fictional world that works well only in her novels. There are, indeed, creative, visionary, talented people out there. But you rarely find them in charge of major companies.

By the same token, John Carter survived very nicely on the surface of Mars, without space suit or breathing apparatus.

But the REAL Mars isn't quite like that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 05:49 PM

Brief biography of A Rand here. A glimpse into where she was coming from, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 06:11 PM

"most people here who are calling Ayn Rand a poor writer heard bad things about her before they tried reading"...etc.
Don, I just knew The Fountainhead as a book that lots of buzz. I found the copy of the book, and looked forward to getting into this perported masterpiece. When I actually read it, I found it disappointing on many levels.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 06:45 PM

Me above, again

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 07:02 PM

Ayn Rand is the embodiment and the definition of a sociopath. Her paper thin characterizations in her novel make it impossible to recreate them as a legitimate movie. Gregory Peck had literally nothing to work with and the latest movie was a well-deserved flop.

She has nothing of value to offer society. Her polemical style of writing is not even
as prescient as Marx.

It's true she has her acolytes such as Paul Ryan and formerly Alan Greenspan ( you see how much good that did for the economy).

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 07:12 PM

I have only read "Atlas Shrugged" and not all of it. It was astoundingly tedious. And the premise???? That creative people could go on strike and not be immediately replaced. That is the single most unrealistic thing I have ever read. Watch "All About Eve" if you think Atlas Shrugged is competent writing. If you think that dominance in business is about what you create, read the history of Bill Gates, or Standard Oil, or Wal*Mart, or General Motors.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 07:37 PM

Don Firth: "By the same token, John Carter survived very nicely on the surface of Mars, without space suit or breathing apparatus.

But the REAL Mars isn't quite like that."

Boy! I could have fun with that one!!....I'll just let Don, just have a quiet smirk on his face, thinking about how he walked into that one!

Pardon granted!
wink!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 08:50 PM

Wotthehell are you talking about, GfS?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 09:10 PM

Ayn Rand taught some very valuable lessons--such as not being buffaloed by mass think, and valuing your own integrity--but using them to form the foundation of universal pragma or dicta was a bit like being a biblical literalist--not wise, not tempered, not accurate, and not very useful.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 09:26 PM

GfS, please clear up Don's great and meaningful mistake.
At this point I rather like his reference.
I have a feeling that Mr. Burroughs didn't know that Mars has a surface air pressure of about 7 millibars, so that couldn't be the great gaffe

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 09:26 PM

"Ayn Rand taught some very valuable lessons--such as not being buffaloed by mass think, and valuing your own integrity--"

That's what I got out of her writing early on, Amos. Among other things, when set upon as I described above ("When are you going to stop messing around with those cowboy songs and take your music studies seriously?"), it helped me stick to my guns.

But the more I read of her stuff, the more disenchanted I became with her.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 09:31 PM

GfS, Skivee, that was exactly my POINT!!

Gawd, you mean I have to explain a JOKE to you guys!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: number 6
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 10:12 PM

""Ayn Rand taught some very valuable lessons--such as not being buffaloed by mass think, and valuing your own integrity--"

"you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" ... Bob Dylan said that

wiLLiam

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: number 6
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 10:22 PM

I did read Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead" when I was 19. It was a suggested reading by a girl who would later in time become my wife .... the meaning of her madness was you have to read the works from the other side to formulate your own philosophical views that are on the side you are on ... hmmmm, interesting point I thought ... anyway I found it to be somewhat a dry, a tedious read but it all made sense.

"The Fountainhead" .... It wasn't entertaining, t wasn't musical, and it didn't have a beat.

wiLLiam

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,songbob
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 10:45 PM

A famous quote about Ms. Rand:

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: "The Lord of the Rings," and "Atlas Shrugged."

One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world.

The other, of course, involves orcs."

Works for me!

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 22 Jan 12 - 11:25 PM

Don, Not to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 08:41 AM

I'd never heard of her until a few months ago when a documentary on the BBC (mainly about the global crash, computer systems etc and how they all interacted). It seems she had a big influence (and still does according to the TV prog) on a lot of the IT and Computer firms in Silicon Valley.

Was she just an influence in the US or was she well knownelse where too?

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 08:48 AM

I certainly knew of her in the UK. I don't think the IT industry was more affected by her than others, apart from the fact that start-up companies tend to be more affected by current ideas than long established ones and it happens that there were numerous IT start-ups when her ideas were in vogue. So there is a correlation, but not quite in the way the programme suggested.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Ringer
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 09:54 AM

I'd never heard of her until perhaps a coupla years ago when I saw her referenced on another discussion group.

Could those who read her in their youth, when it was apparently fashionable so to do, give some idea of when that was (just so I know whether it was before my time, after my time, or just whether I was as ignorant of the zeitgeist then as I seem to be now). Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 10:57 AM

I don't think the programme was saying she only influenced IT companies but that the programme was only looking at IT companies and how they helped create the crash.

I think they were published in the forites, fifties and or sixties.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 12:46 PM

Don, let me be clearer. I liked your Barsoomian joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 01:16 PM

I read her in the late 50's and 60's.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Wyrd Sister
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 01:58 PM

The person who gave me 'Atlas Shrugged' to read (c. 1979) is now Chief Executive of the British Bankers' Association. I didn't like it then and I like the thought even less now.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 02:15 PM

IMHO there is a world of difference between AR's writing and DOestoyevsky's, or anyone comparable to him. The difference is in the depth of the characters. AR's whole intent, in creating characters like Dagney Taggart and Hank Reardon, was to embody a polemic, to put a face on a message, much like a ventriloquist uses a dummy. The result was pretty two-dimensional characters. Her weak-spined bureaucrats are similarly drawen in two dimensions with exagerrated features, cariactures of genuine human experience.

Fyodor, on the other hand, almost went too far in the other direction, but at least his people were rich in individual personality and experience, and real human passions.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 03:37 PM

I agree to a point, Amos. Atlas Shrugged is, literarily, a thousand page polemic, and the characters are little more than two-dimensional cardboard stereotypes. But she was so gung-ho on writing a world-changing novel that she lost her perspective—and her ability to evaluate her own work.

Actually, she said her favorite writer was Victor Hugo. (Sorry, Alisa baby! Nice try earlier on, but you shoulda quit while you were ahead.)

Granted, Skivee, my attempt at a joke wasn't really a knee-slapper. I was merely trying to underscore my contention that the hero-types in Ayn Rand's novels emerged triumphant in the end because the world they operated in was a fictional representation, and didn't really exist--like Burrough's Mars (aka Barsoom) that John Carter romped around on—not the real Mars.

I'm aware that there are those who think an "allegory" is a large lizard-like reptile that lives in the Everglades and "analogy" is a condition in which you sneeze a lot, but beyond that, I'm not real sure what GfS got all tittery about. Stumbling to a different drummer, I guess.

By the way, Skivee, thanks for posting the link to the Ayn Rand bio. I was aware of all this myself. In fact, her first novel, We the Living (1936) is fictional, but vaguely autobiographical in that it's based on incidents of her life in Russia before she emigrated to the United States. By the way, H. L. Mencken praised it highly. And although it's highly political, as a novel, it may very well be her best novel.

The Fountainhead was published in 1943. The movie adaptation came out in 1949. It starred Gary Cooper (not Gregory Peck), Patricia Neal, and Raymond Massey. Atlas Shrugged was published in 1957, and by that time, she had a substantial following as a result of the success of The Fountainhead, based on its theme of the importance of personal integrity and a willingness to stand or fall on the courage of one's own vision.

Not a bad theme, I'd say.

In fact—and speaking of Gregory Peck—when it comes to personal integrity and willingness to "lay it on the line"—one of my particular heroes is Atticus Finch in Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird. Gregory Peck played Atticus Finch in the movie.

If you have not read this book and / or seen this movie, your education is not complete.

But back to Ayn Rand:    Bennett Cerf, who owned Modern Library and Random House, and who published such writers as William Faulkner, John O'Hara, Eugene O'Neill, James Michener, Truman Capote, Theodor Seuss Geisel, (so must have known something about writing) also published Atlas Shrugged, even though he vehemently disagreed with much of Rand's philosophy.

I am not convinced that those who insist on trashing her ability to write are not responding much more to her objectionable ideas than they are to her actual ability to string words together.

But the upshot of the whole thing is this:   as indicated by the political philosophy of Ron Paul (although he's talking around the crucial subjects these days so as not to let it ALL hang out) and the ideas expressed (most obviously through placards) at Tea Party demonstrations, the ideas of Ayn Rand are influencing a large number of minds these days.

You are aware, are you not, that the Libertarian Party was started by a group of Objectivists (the official name of those who embrace Ayn Rand's political ideas)? And that Ron Paul has run for president before? As the Libertarian candidate?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 06:07 PM

Don, I like your analysis of AR.
Regarding the much more worthy Harper Lee, I heard a story once of writers at a party discussing her.
One writer dismissed her for only writing one book. Another author, known for prolific output, remarked, "Yes, but WHAT a book."

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 06:12 PM

The link was from Guest 999.
My comment of "me , above" was for the post betwixt. I lost my cookie several times yesterday, and I was trying to avoid confusion. fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 06:25 PM

Sometimes one's enough.

If someone were to ask me what book I would seriously nominate as "The Great American Novel," rather than some great, sweeping, panoramic saga, I would respond with To Kill a Mockingbird.

Atticus Finch = personal integrity.

Don Firth

P. S. And the movie held up to the book. Gregory Peck's portrayal of a quiet, dignified man who stood solid as a rock on his principles was superb. On a TV interview I heard him say that it was his favorite role.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 06:27 PM

Thanks for straightening that out, Skivee. And thank YOU, 999!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 07:27 PM

////Actually, Rand Paul is not named after Ayn Rand. His given name is Randall and he went by Randy until his wife started calling him Rand. ///

Yeah, I've read that a million times (it's actually "Randal" with one L) but I don't believe it. Methinks the shoe doth fit just a bit too satisfactorily here.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 01:45 AM

Don, reportedly Peck was doing scenes and noticed Lee weeping quietly behind the camera, and went up to her. When he asked her why she said she was crying because they were filming a perfect image of her book.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 12:14 PM

Is it 'normal' for 'so-called liberals' to make such a commotion out of every LITTLE nano-non-important-trivia, and blow it out of proportion such as, to whom a candidate MIGHT have named his kid after??????!!!!???
Jeez!..Get a life.....

GfS

P.S....outside of the bottle!
Un-fucking-believable!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 12:29 PM

For a look at an Ayn Rand "ideal" world rent "Mad Max After the Thunderdome"...

In her world there is no sharing... Just fighting...

No thanks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 01:18 PM

Just a thought..........

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 04:02 PM

GfS:—    "Is it 'normal' for 'so-called liberals' to make such a commotion out of every LITTLE nano-non-important-trivia, and blow it out of proportion such as, to whom a candidate MIGHT have named his kid after??????!!!!???"

No, considering the intellectual level of the average voter these days, it's definitely NOT normal.

But such bits of "trivia" give one a good indication of the premises a candidate's (or any person's, for that matter) philosophies and beliefs are based on, which, in turn, can give a pretty good clue as to how he or she would behave once in office.

Even moreso if, later on, the person tries to deny it or cover it up.

One does need to pay attention if one is going to be an intelligent voter. Or campaign worker.

Or human being.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 08:29 PM

Don: "No, considering the intellectual level of the average voter these days, it's definitely NOT normal."

Agreed!
Maybe WE the people should object to the dumbing down, of the populous, through the propaganda media, and help safeguard each other, from their antics!...Which, as you know, I've been trying to do, even on here...but ..well you know...some indoctrinations have certainly taken a strong foothold...even with people who should know better!!

GfS

P.S. We do have a vehicle........MUSIC!

I thought this was cool for a bit of honesty!

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Skivee
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 08:39 PM

I don't know if Mr. Paul named his son after Ayn, or if Romney drove for 12 hours with a diarrhetic dog on his car roof, or if Newt nailed half of DC while impeaching Clinton for his unworthy peccadilloes, or if Santorum is just a hate-filled hatey-guy.
What I do know is that, as a liberal democrat, I wish my guy was running against better people. You know, for the sake of the country and all that.
Just once I'd like to go into the voting booth and say "I don't know who to vote for; they're all so good." sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:00 PM

The Fountainhead is a very strong book. Dynamic. Place several headstrong people on a collision course and stand back tosee what happens. I couldn't work up much interest in Rand's other fiction, but The Fountainhead is a great book. In my opinion.

Odd how this degenerated into trash talking about Ron Paul's family. And I'd be curious to know who a liberal democrat considers to be "my guy." Do you mean Obama? He's not a liberal. He's a banker's representative. The banks are the new robber barons, so Obama's kind of a headstrong Randian character, in a way, working to place the interests of the banks ahead of the interests of the rabble.

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:05 PM

•Obama's 1st Chief of Staff was Rahm Emmanuel, who was on the board at Freddie Mac when it was plagued with corruption and accounting scandals

•Obama's 2nd Chief of Staff, Bill Daley (of the Chicago mob Daleys) was (is) VP at JP Morgan Chase

•Obama's 3rd Chief of Staff is Jacob Lew from Citibank, where "the unit he oversaw invested in a hedge fund that bet on the housing market to collapse."

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 10:35 PM

It's well beyond Ron Paul...

It's about an entire segment of rich people, most who have cheated and continue to cheat, who have used power and corruption to benefit them at the detriment of others...

Rand is fine with that... After all, in her perfect world it is all about dogs eating other dogs who, in turn, eat other dogs... It's all about failure by those who should have known better than to play by the rules... Tough shit... You should have cheated... You should have stole... You should have used your daddy's money to change the rules...

John Galt is no hero... He is a thug...

Ayn Rand would oppose the interstate highway system... She would have toll roads, toll sidewalks, toll air, toll gravity and toll everything else where rich people steal the poor shmo's shit and the poor shmo's labor everyday... That is Ayn Rand's "personal responsibility" world... Were the rich stay rich and everyone else just works as the rich's slave class...

Too bad, you losers... If you didn't want to be losers you should have picked rich parents... Eat shit and die you losers... Next time pick rick parents like we did...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 11:31 PM

I'm beginning to think that these current political issues REALLY ARE all about "class warfare." Ayn Rand's writing certainly go to the heart of the matter.

If there's anything I've learned from my 174 years, it's that this struggle, the rich against the poor, will NEVER end. It will go on and on and on.

These days I find that music, and catching a trout on a fly line, is quite theraputic! bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 11:35 PM

Too bad there isn't a "like" button on Mudcat!

✔^Like

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 11:36 PM

Ya' gotta do both, Bob...

Look out for yourself and your own peace of mind but know that Marx was correct... The cheated will always try to stop the cheaters... Human nature to not live like slaves...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 02:39 AM

Deckman: "I'm beginning to think that these current political issues REALLY ARE all about "class warfare."

FINALLY!!..A light bulb shineth!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: Deckman
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 02:58 AM

It's an old story!

Subject: RE: BS: Ayn Rand
From: GUEST,skivee, guesting in
Date: 25 Jan 12 - 10:47 AM

I love the depth and breadth of discussion on ms. Rand's work. Boy-oh-boy I never would have guessed that this thread would have lasted to 100.