Extreme Folk guitar?

Subject: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 01:48 PM

It's what he calls it...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jm4YBXfjLQ

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 02:06 PM

Very flashy but is it folk?

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 02:36 PM

Rock noodling - very clever, very accomplished, but nothing whatsoever to do with traditional "folk" tunes.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Stower
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 03:13 PM

With this sort of playing I can hear lots of notes but no actual music. It's about being clever, not about being musical IMO.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,Azoic
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 03:19 PM

I would like to hear him playing with June Tabor

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 04:22 PM

Envy!

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 04:28 PM

I can tell you that the co-ordination required to play like that is beyond your imagination.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 04:54 PM

No Bonzo, it's not envy in the slightest - and of course it's not beyond anyone's imagination. Any reasonable pianist playing a reasonably interesting piece is using similar skills of co-ordination.

I applaud the man's expert technique - but I prefer to see content triumph over style - and I repeat that it bears no relation to anything "folk", so why give it that label?

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 04:58 PM

It's what the player calls it.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 05:15 PM

Sounds like King Crimson to me. And The King ain't folk.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 05:59 PM

He's playing something that looks vaguely like an acoustic guitar. Therefore in the eyes, ears and minds of the general music industry and media - especially in the USA - it's categorised as "folk". We are long past the point where this (ab)usage can be corrected. That's why it's best to not use the term at all. You can say it's not traditional music with more certainty though.

(It's not that extreme either, just standard rock muso noodling Try listening to Michael Chapman's "The Ressurection And Revenge Of Clayton Peacock" if you want something more adventurous)

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 07:19 PM

well i think it has origins within the English folk mowement.

I can see a relationship between Isaac Guillory, Eric Roche - and all that stuff kicks off with Davy Graham and Bert Jansch.

The instrument itself was - that twin neck thing was kicked off in Englannd with Rob Armstrong making a thing like that for Eddie Furey in the 1970s. This is the folk music scene I've experienced. If you had your head buried in the Penguin Book of English Folksongs and missed all that. You can't complain if you've only got a penguin's eye view of the subject.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 07:20 PM

Mozart to Salieri in Amadeus:    "That doesn't really work, does it?"

Also (if I remember correctly) from Amadeus:    "So many notes! So little music!"

Or from Pete Seeger:    "You don't have to play a lot of notes. Just be sure the notes you do play are important."

I look on this sort of thing as a parlor trick. I can't really see it being incorporated into real music, folk or otherwise.

Don Firth

P. S.   As the drunk at the bar yelled at the guy on the stage, "Hey, man, can you play Temptation?

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 07:54 PM

Technically good but I was bored by 1:35

CC

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jan 12 - 08:36 PM

Yes I couldn't stand very much of him twatting about like that. Still its an impressive sound - you could use some elements of it as a nice accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 03:11 AM

The instrument itself was - that twin neck thing was kicked off in Englannd with Rob Armstrong making a thing like that for Eddie Furey in the 1970s

Erm - bit earlier than that, and wrong side of the pond: quite a few models from the 50s, Bigsby, Carvin, Mosrite etc made twin necks. Some v. interesting guitars from that era...

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 03:17 AM

You wouldn't want more than 5 minutes of that would you ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 05:04 AM

Very impressive but not as accomplished musically as, say Jamie Roberts whose playing takes your breath away.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 05:05 AM

Sure I remember the guy in Dave Berry's Cruisera played a twin neck beck in '65 - sort of SG looking thing. I 'm not sure I remember seeing an acoustic twin neck prior to Rob. Rob played one at a gig at my folk club back then. not sure I've seen one since.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Silas
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 05:12 AM

Pretty clever stuff, but not all that entertaining. If you listen without watching it's a tad, well, boring, really. (And I really don't like bowl backed guitars of any description)

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,Folkalicious
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 05:44 AM

Boring! There seems to be a fashion for young guitarists to do this sort of thing 'hitting' the guitar to give the impression of drums. You've got to wonder do they do it because they don't have any friends! If you need some drums make friends with a drummer!

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 06:05 AM

Oh come on! He's not THAT bad! He's pretty competent at what he does. A guitar's a guitar. Lots of people play Ovation guitars.

Be nice to people!

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 09:46 AM

And for an encore I suppose he plays it behind his head.......?

Whatever turns you on...........................

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Bert
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 10:14 AM

Try this one

You'd better hurry though 'cos I don't know how long they'll keep that picture avaiable.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 11:20 AM

Ooh! Such sniffiness! It sounds like music to me. Clearly no Martin Simpson fans drawn into this thread...

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 01:24 PM

well MS is is with the incrowd - decorated by the queen and other authorities on folk music.

I really do think someone with those techniques at his fingertips could do some interesting arrangements of folk songs. And the soundscapes that he could summon up would be inspiring to a certain kind of songwriter.

Anyway that's what he's done with his life. He hasn't asked you for a booking. Itsa bit rude to say - you've wasted your life mate.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Stower
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 02:10 PM

GUEST,raymond greenoaken, to my ears Martin Simpson, technically excellent, also plays with feeling and knows to express a song as a slice of life. With the link the OP posted, all I hear is a cascade of notes with no musicality or emotion. There is a world of difference.

Big Al, I have no idea what you're trying to imply. Martin Simpson has been working away for decades, producing music of the highest quality, and deserves kudos for that.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 02:35 PM

Both human beings. Both done their best at musicianing. Both deserving of respect.

Sorry that you can't summon up any respect for this unknown bloke - perhaps if the Queen gave him the nod of approval, it might help.

I respect martin Simpson- can't imagine a guitarist who woulddn't beimpressed, or a songwriter who wouldn't have loved to have written -never any good with money. I've seen him a few times. I'm not sure why he doesn't warrant the abuse slung at Jack Hudson and myself - that bounder sings with an American accent! That swine's approach to traditional folk music isn't atonal andhe plays a guitar to songs that were sung unaccompanied. That cur! His arrangements are so complicated his playing sounds like clockwork!

make an effort! Tryan imagine world with a degree of equality and fairness.....can't do it. nah! didn't think you could.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 03:01 PM

>to my ears Martin Simpson, technically excellent, also plays with feeling and knows to express a song as a slice of life. With the link the OP posted, all I hear is a cascade of notes with no musicality or emotion. There is a world of difference. <

But the piece we've listened to is a puff, a whimsy, a light-hearted effusion taking pleasure in its own deftness. How much emotion do you need? And who's to say he can't turn on the existential anguish when occasion demands?

For all that, there is a certain quality to the springy percussiveness of the playing that puts me in mind of Martin Simpson. Just thought that anyone with a fondness for Mr S might be tickled by that. Wrong, I guess.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 03:33 PM

Pedantic fB here. Hello Big Al. The Dave Berry guitarist was Frank White, who played a white Gibson double-neck. John Whitney - later of Family - played the same model in black.
Back to you stringspersons.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 05:00 PM

I don't think anyone would say that he's not accomplished and yes I do have a Martin Simpson album or two.

However, I don't expect anyone in the folk sessions around here would consider the piece he's playing "Folk" in the sense of the word.

That said, it's the only piece I've heard him play as such and therefore it may not be representative.

Like big Al says, technically he plays guitar quite well and obviously through a fair bit of practice.

I still found it quite boring to listen to though.

CC

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 07:11 PM

I would imagine he could knock out the chords to Shepherds hay and the Dorset four hand reel with the best of em. Its not folk and I don't think I'd watch him very long doing instrumentals, not for the thrill of the music - as a guitarist though, I'd watch him to see if I could filch any ideas for my version of folk music, and so should you - steal wherever you can.

He DOES sound a little like the late Isaac Guillory to me, and didn't Guillory used to accompany people like June tabor. is the relationship with folk music really so opaque?

Also I take isssue with him being called unmusical. I think he's pretty nifty. If he turned up at a folkclub, I'd give him a listen.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Jan 12 - 07:19 PM

Minds me of this tune I alluded to above, among others.

WARNING... THIS is NOT "folk".

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Stower
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 02:44 AM

Big Al Whittle, are you trying to provoke a fight?! Your message certainly reads that way.

* I didn't say anyone was undeserving of respect.
* Whether someone has "a nod from the Queen" is of no relevance to me in regard to anything whatever.
* "make an effort! Tryan imagine world with a degree of equality and fairness.....can't do it. nah! didn't think you could." If you answer on my behalf in that aggressive manner then sensible conversation with you is impossible.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 03:37 AM

Dear stower

apologies if i offended.

This bloke (whatever his vision of folk music) is a fellow musician. You don't get to be able to do what he does in five minutes - it takes practice and dedication to the wood and the wire.

You said what he does shows 'no musicality'. I don't really think that was showing him much in the way of respect.

All of which left me wondering what does it take to elicit some respect from you.

So, perhaps a nod from the Queen, Martin Carthy mentioning him in an interview - a session as a backing musician for June Tabor. I thought maybe something along those lines might do it. Perhaps if he was related to someone in Steele Span......who knows...

all the above seem to carry some weight in certain quarters.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 04:08 AM

Is the genre Extreme Folk? Or is the instrument an Extreme Folk Guitar? Either way, I can't quite see it as a puff, a whimsy, a light-hearted effusion taking pleasure in its own deftness because that's how much super slick muso folk comes across leaves days anyway, yet gets much glory, laud & honour out here in the Cultural Tundra of Mudcatland where the ageing hunter gatherers cling doggedly to the old ways whilst the young bloods have settled on more fertile lands with their new fangled ploughs and cruck-frames...

As we've seen over the years this term FOLK is vexing in terms of its definition, or rather its lack of, and the OP (especally) is forever telling us FOLK is not about genre, yet dares imply this might be a Genre Issue. Hmmmm. In terms of the 1954 Definition there seems to be quite a community of cunning guitarists out there evolving all sorts of styles of playing by taking advantage of the electro acoustic dynamic whereby strumming & finger picking becomes pretty much ananthema to their craft. I met a Japanese chap in Forsyth's in MCR a few month back who was using a similar technique and he spoke of quite a scene in Toyko where this sort of thing is pretty much par for the course.

And then there's The Chapman Stick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYKB6Lag-wg&feature=related

And don't go telling me that that isn't folk because I've heard it being played in pretty much every folk club I've been to for 36 years.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 04:14 AM

Oo-er - just watched the above link and there appears to be a supernatural materialisation of an exctoplasmic manisfestation as a guitar appears in the later part of the film that wasn't there at the beginning. People of a nervous disposition watch out; the more pragmatically minded might look for the edit....

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 05:06 AM

Leaving the argument of whether it's "folk" or not on one side (I actually couldn't care less whether he calls it Extreme Folk Guitar or Extreme Jazz Guitar or Extreme Ambient Guitar - pick your own label as any would do), you have to separate out technique from content.

There are many examples of prodigious and unusual technique in performance on musical instruments and the question is always whether the technique enhances or shrouds the content - and indeed whether there is any content at all.

My first reaction on seeing this clip was, "He's doing some very clever tapping on a twin-neck guitar." Applause. My next reaction was, "What's he actually playing?". No idea. Theme? Exposition? Re-statement of theme? Dynamics? Expression? Feeling? Does it move me or exhilarate me?

In the end, all I got from it - and many of you may well have got more - was: "He's doing some very clever tapping on a twin-neck guitar."

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 05:46 AM

Just to add to the tread-drift/pedantry on twin-necks:

Big Al - I see what you were getting at - twin neck acoustics do look to be pretty rare. they must need some serious bracing to stand the strain.

I wonder what this guy sounded like though: Jack Penewell

How about this one? Something for everybody

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 05:53 AM

Regarding tapping/percussive guitar though I've seen John Gomm a few times and he's very impressive.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 06:22 AM

Strikes me this thread explores two questions: is it "folk" and is it any good? Both questions seem to have elicited somewhat priggish replies.

Will says it ain't folk because it doesn't have the familiar structure of folk melodies. Where's the A part? Where's the B part? Because folk doesn't really have a tradition of extended extemporisation, it must be something else: noodling. By contrast, Suibhne and Al suggest that since it could readily be performed in a designated folk context, ergo it's folk.

The other question – is it any good? – seems to hinge on notions of showing off and lacking emotionality. Is the former a direct consequence of the latter?

I await enlightenment on both questions. They're both worth asking.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Silas
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 07:15 AM

OK Raymond - enlightenment for you. It don't matter if it is isn't folk. Its a very clever and entertaining piece of work, but it is more a visual feast than and aural one - try listening to it without watching it and you will see what I mean.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 07:42 AM

Nice bit of trickery...

BTW, he doesn't pull this off with out open tunings and electronics...

Wouldn't pay to hear the guy because I reckon after about 10 minutes I'd feel like it was torture,,,

B~

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 07:58 AM

Yes its terribly sad. thers no real equality amongst humans when it comes to acoustic guitar instrumentals.

Theres not many who've got the whole package - great vision, dazzling technique, devotion to and interest in the nuts and bolts of guitars.

When I lived in the midlands I used to go Acoustic Avalon, a guitar exhibition every year in the autumn - organised by Sheehans music shop at Leicester Racecourse Building. I bought a beautiful Yamaha cpx15cm - the only cedar topped yamaha - there one year.

Anyway the top guitar makers get the top guitar players to play and demonstrate their stuff. One year they got ralph McTell - but usually its these guys like that chap with the twin neck - doing clever stuff - you often buy a capo and set of strings out of sheer boredom. The audience are all male - trainspotter types, guitar anoraks.

in all the time I went - Steve Hicks and Eric Roche were the only ones who really had that whole package and could sustain an hours listening. To them I'd add Gordo Giltrap and Clive Carrol - then I think you're searching. Not singing mind - just instrumentals.

The great accompanists are something else - top of that tree, I'd put Paul Downes.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 08:11 AM

Will says it ain't folk because it doesn't have the familiar structure of folk melodies.

Well, in a way, yes - except that I'd go further and say it ain't much of anything except Extreme Guitar. You could label it Extreme Jazz Guitar, for example, and then I'd dig back through my own memories of jazz from New Orleans to Coltrane and try and make some connections.

I'm not an old folk maid by any means - here's me playing a bent and twisted, jazzed-up version of "Staten Island" to make my point - and I can only applaud his technique and the hours of application he's put in to do what he does. It's clever stuff and, if I had to label it anything, I'd call it Impressionist Guitar.

What's "Extreme" about it, by the way?

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 08:44 AM

Rubbish, it's folk if you want it to be!!!!!

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 08:48 AM

Ah - the Humpty Dumpty Syndrome... :-)

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 12:29 PM

Someone posted this on Facebook which sort of seems fitting here:

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/395338_2903668863865_1024773033_32484797_539526286_n.jpg

I guess a folk guitarist comes somewhere in between... 3 chords / 3 people?

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Mar 12 - 04:50 AM

I think it is something akin to improv jazz as far as listener experience goes. Not sing (or hum) along-able but good to actively listen to (if not nearly as rich). It is definitely fun to watch.      

As far as naming the genre... I hate labels and compartmentalising. Let him call it whatever he likes if he feels the need.

Subject: RE: Extreme Folk guitar?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Mar 12 - 07:45 AM

Sounds like he wants to be a kora player or Paraguayan harpist.

Okay as wallpaper but I find the real thing more involving.