BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc

Subject: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 08:39 AM

Democrats Are Jumping Ship

Investors Business Daily 04/20/2012

Perhaps Democrats know something the rest of us don't about Barack Obama's political fortunes. What else explains the increasing numbers who are openly defying the president on two key election issues?

The notoriously thin-skinned Obama could not have been happy with the news last week that, as the Hill newspaper put it, "an increasing number of Democrats are taking potshots at President Obama's health care law."

North Carolina's Brad Miller, who voted for the law, now laments that "we would all have been better off" if Congress had dealt with more pressing issues "and then came back to health care."

Barney Frank complained that the Democrats "paid a terrible price for health care." And Virginia's outgoing Sen. Jim Webb said the law would be Obama's "biggest downside" in the election and had cost him "a lot of credibility as a leader."

Meanwhile, stalwart Massachusetts liberal Elizabeth Warren is now calling to repeal a piece of ObamaCare — the 2.3% tax on medical devices — because, she says, it "disproportionately impacts the small companies with the narrowest financial margins."

Warren, by the way, is running for the Senate seat occupied by Republican Scott Brown, whose victory in 2010 was a result of the public's intense opposition to ObamaCare.

Former Alabama Rep. Artur Davis went furthest. "I think the Affordable Care Act is the single least popular piece of major domestic legislation in the last 70 years," he said. "It was not popular when it passed; it's less popular now." Ouch.

These Democrats are no doubt familiar with polls that show surprisingly little support for ObamaCare within their ranks. Fewer than half of Democrats think the government should be able to force individuals to buy insurance — the core element of ObamaCare — according to the latest IBD/TIPP poll. Only a little more than a third say the Supreme Court should "uphold the entire law."
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The fact that they're willing to trash-talk Obama's single biggest legislative achievement suggests they're worried about something more than how the Supreme Court will rule.

This fear is even more evident when you look at the growing opposition among Democrats to Obama's position on the Keystone XL pipeline.

Obama may have thought he'd cleverly handled the issue by putting it off until next year, and that no one would think to defy his veto threats.

But when Republicans called his bluff with a bill to force a start on construction, 69 Democrats rushed to join them, giving the House bill a veto-proof majority. The Senate bill is just a vote or two away from overcoming a Democratic filibuster.

The importance of this fight is huge. If Democrats defy him, it will severely undermine Obama's claim that he's pursuing an all-of-the-above energy strategy.

Obama came to the White House claiming that he alone was qualified to unite the country behind common objectives. The fact that he's losing support from his own party on two of the most important issues of the day is significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:05 AM

Of course the Kucinich single-payer scheme would have been better, but no-one in their right mind could want to continue the traditional US free-for-all under which "living was a thing that money could buy" ( a quote from "All my trials").

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Arkie
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:39 AM

The cost of medical care in the United States rose over 100 per cent over a ten year and continued to rise in the next decade. The country's standing in quality of medical care dropped to where there were 30 or more countries ranking higher. And medical care had reached a point where it was no longer affordable for working families. In my small town, I know of one young man who was working two jobs who had to file for bankruptcy because he could not pay the bill for his wife's illness. And his case was not the only one. Something needed to be done before more young people and elders had to make serious choices between medical care and other necessities. Good things were accomplished with the health care plan established by the Obama administration in spite of all the efforts by Republicans to sabotage and misrepresent the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:42 AM

Unfortunately, the Affordable Care Act is all the Dems could get this time around... By 2024 we will have single payer but, as per usual, the reactionaries will do everything in the book to slow down progress because that is what they do... Same folks wanted to hang onto slavery, wouldn't ride in automobiles, think that immunizations are bad for you, don't believe that man ever flew to the moon...

But the country has no choice but to fix health care and going back to what hasn't worked isn't a fix...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:03 AM

Bobert: "Unfortunately, the Affordable Care Act is all the Dems could get this time around... By 2024 we will have single payer but...."

NONSENSE!!!..Absolute NONSENSE!! They could have gone for anything they wanted...majority in the House and Senate, President who would sign it, plenty of bribes and waivers...jeez Bobert, you're whole premise is off!
I mean, I guess it means NOTHING to you that the American public doesn't want it...BECAUSE of all the non-related medical shit that is in it..you know, those nasty 'little' pesky intrusions by the government and corporations.
You DON'T seem to 'get it'..People DO NOT want government involved, and controlling EVERY aspect of their personal lives.
This 'Affordable' (misleading cue word), has more to do with CONTROL rather than 'assisting' with health benefits. The 'affordable health' nonsense was just the bribe enticement..hoping to bribe your support. IT DIDN'T WORK! Get it?.....

(nooo)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:11 AM

As per usual, GfinS, you once again have forgotten to take your memory pills...

Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman, both Dems threatened early to not vote for anything that resembled single payer... Nelson was just a blue dog with more red than blue and Lieberman the recipient of big donations from the health insurance lobby...

Go back and study your history because you are wrong as wrong can be on this one...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest freom Sanity
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:26 AM

Bobert: "As per usual, GfinS, you once again have forgotten to take your memory pills..."

You must have forgotten yours. Nelson was bribed, as was Kucinich. Single payer would have been 'better'. Obamacare has NOTHING to do with 'health'......you just can't bring yourself around to understand that, yet..and that's, too bad.
The provision you speak of, was the enticement to portray benefits for the medical industry....but now as more pages are ADDED after it was passed, that fell through the floor, as well.
This system is so wrought with deception and fraud, that certain parts need to be re-done, from the ground up.
The fact is, WE cannot afford a giant, intrusive government, whose operating costs(including bribes), can be sustained by a shrinking economy, due to the reckless disregard, to the private sector...WHICH PAYS THE BILL!
On the other hand, we also cannot afford reckless, and treasonous behavior of the private global mega-corporations, who use us as where they rent our military might, to accomplish their goals of greed.

As far as the Democrats 'bailing out of Obamacare' I wish they would have displayed more balls when the shitty thing was being passed around!
Yes! We need health care...but THIS bill should have NEVER seen the light of day!
It SUCKS!
..and if this and other administrations had been doing their job, and not accepting payoffs, we would have 'affordable health care'...right from our own pockets!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 12:19 PM

What the USA needs is a socialized health care plan such as exists in Canada and in most of western Europe. The USA can't get that, however, because it has a public who have been so brainwashed all their lives by fear of socialism...that they are largely incapable of understanding the subject and have absolutely no idea how such a health care plan would work, why it would work, or really anything about it at all.

Obama's so-called health care plan was anything BUT socialism. It was a huge giveaway to the private health care industry in the USA, enabling them to greatly increase their profits.

Public health care shouldn't even have anything to do with profit! It should have to do with giving people needed medical care which should be a CIVIL RIGHT, not something someone profits from.

Other civil rights are things like equal protection under the law...the right of free speech...the right to the religion of your choice (or none at all)...etc.

How would you like it if you could only get police protection by paying the cops $5000 or more in cash any time you might happen to need them? Or how would you like it if your house caught on fire and the fire department said, "Oh, we'll send over our guys and put that fire out...IF you pay us $1,000 in cash when we get there, and write us out a check for another $10,000. The check better not bounce, either, cos if it does, we'll sue you and take your house and every cent you've got. Are we straight on that? Okay. Fine. The fire trucks are on the way."

The reason the police and fire department will help you at present without acting as I have laid it out above is simply this: they are SOCIALIST institutions! They do what they do NOT to make a profit, but to meet a vital and immediate public need that has nothing to do with making a profit for anyone. They are funded through taxes. They treat everyone on an equal basis. No one has to pay them exorbitant fees up front to get their help in an emergency.

That is how medical care should work. A medical problem is an emergency...NOT a chance for someone to make money! It should be funded on an equal basis by every adult citizen through their taxes, and NO one should have to pay one additional red cent to get medical help, because illness is an emergency, just like if your house is on fire or someone is robbing your house and you need the police to stop him.

If everyone funds something on an equal basis, then everyone can easily afford what that costs...because most people AREN'T in need of medical care most of the time. So the cost to each person under a socialized system is affordable. Same as car insurance. Same as house insurance. Same as any kind of insurance. We all pay these things and spread out the cost that way so we can afford it....but only a few of us need to make an insurance claim in any given year...thus we can all afford the cost of such insurance, because it's spread around evenly through basically the whole population.

The American public has been brainwashed for so long by the voices of private industry that they don't get this. That's incredible. But it's true. This amounts to a public which is simply beyond help, as far as I can see, because they are the prisoners of their own insane social mythology...and they don't even know what socialism is!

The plan Obama brought in didn't even vaguely resemble socialism. It resembles a big give-away to profit-based private health care industries. And that's insane. You who are on the Right should be celebrating his wretched Obamacare. It's right up your alley, because it helps the rich in your society get richer.

And if you don't get what I mean about that...well, here's an old article from back then which explains it quite clearly:

The pure greed of Obama's phony health care reform

Read it and weep!

Look, get this: the rest of the world watches what happens in your so-called democracy and shudders with horror. And we can't do a thing about it, because the USA is the most heavily armed nation in the world, the most aggressive military power in the world, and no one can fucking well do a thing about it if the USA decides to invade some country, bomb it into ruins, and take it over. And no one can do a thing about it if a majority of Americans willingly consent to be enslaved by a corrupt oligarchy of wealthy corporates and bankers, and deluded by 2 utterly phony political parties, because they are too brainwashed to even know what's happening to them. This is what the world watches, rather like the world once watched in numb horror at what was happening in Germany in the late 30's. No one can protect you from yourselves. Hell, we can't even protect ourselves from what your government may do. But we hope to survive it.

Note: My comments above are not necessarily directed at most individuals on Mudcat, and you should know that. You're mostly a group of leftist-folkie-intellectual types here. You do not at all represent the mainstream of social thought in the USA. My comments are directed at the USA society in a much more general sense...the common average attitude in the USA...and the common average of your society is living in a dream world where "socialism" is equated with dictatorial Communism of the worst sort. That's just a dream world. It has no connection with reality.

So don't take what I said as being directed at YOU YOURSELF personally. It is not directed at you. It's directed at the common mainstream mentality of your nation, because that common mainstream is what goes along passively with supporting the status quo in the USA, and the status quo is about nothing but ensuring profits for the wealthiest few, keeping the rest of you enslaved, and achieving imperial conquest in the world outside your borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 01:15 PM

I'm beginning to think that the real base of the Democratic Party are the people with functioning long term memories.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 01:23 PM

Wrong again, GfinS... Nelson was bribed into what was finally passed, not single payer... Your statement that they could have gotten anything they wanted is not true...

But don't let facts get in the way of your hate...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: kendall
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 01:45 PM

Tyhe only people I have heard say "The whole country does not want Obama care" are republicans, those who already have health insurance, and victims of right wing fear mongers.

It's like some Americans who say, "Everyone wants to come here" That is also a crock of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 03:16 PM

Okay, a little personal note on ONE of the many things wrong with the health care (??) system in this country.

I use a wheelchair. Due to polio at an early age, I walked with forearm crutches, but some years ago my shoulders gave out (the human shoulder is not built to locomote the way I had to). To get around the hilly neighborhood in which I live, and to travel any distance at all, I have a battery powered chair (sorta like THIS), in addition to the manual chair. The power chair cost over $6,500, about twice what I paid for my first car.

My manual chair (lightweight, foldable "Quickie 2") cost over $2,000, although I can't see that it is any more complicated than a decent bicycle, which one could get for a quarter of the price.

A repairman came out from the medical equipment store where I bought the power chair to make some adjustments on the joy stick controller unit, and we got to chatting. I asked him why durable medical equipment costs so bloody much, considering. He said, quite frankly, "It's because more often than not, the patient or client doesn't pay for it, insurance companies do. And frankly, they simply stick it to the insurance companies!" Duly noted.

When my power chair needed a new set of batteries (2), I checked with the store that sold it to me and they told me they would cost about $150 apiece. After I stopped choking, I called my nephew, who worked for one of the local automotive supply stores. He came out, checked the batteries in the chair, and said, "They're standard marine batteries, the kind you would use if you had a power boat." Vroom vroom! "They should run about $75 apiece. I can get them for you wholesale, about $50, and I can install them for you." Which he did.

That was some years ago. The batteries died a few months ago. So it was necessary to replace them. Tim has a different job now, so I figured, "Oh, what the hell! I'll get them from Care Medical and pay the exorbitant price!" But then, that's one of the things I have medical insurance for.

The guy comes out, replaces the batteries, and I'm up and running again.

Then the paperwork comes in.

$700 is what they soaked the insurance company for the batteries!! Plus $60 for a service call!

And now Care Medical wants a $105 co-pay from me!

Something really stinks!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 03:21 PM

What Don said.

The US medical system is broken - but Obama's moves were a small step in the right direction.

You can't have a civilised society without healthcare.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 03:31 PM

Amen to that!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 04:35 PM

Yes, Richard, it is progress but not the solution...

I finally made it to the Medicare "finish (start) line" this year and for the first time since I left my job as a social worker in '89 I have "real" health insurance and therefore...

...health care!!!

One night I was doodling and figured that since '89 when I went into business for myself that I forked over right at $100,000 in premiums and then tried to think of what I got for it and all I could recall the insurance companies actually paying for was a shingles vaccine which cost them about $100... Other than that??? Nada, zero, zip...

One part of the Affordable Care Act, that the insurance companies hate and why they gave some much money to Dick Armey (FreedomWorks) to organize and fund the Tea Party, is a provision that the participating insurance companies will pay out 85% for health care??? I know... Horrors that health insurers have to pay out for health care...

BTW, the administrative costs for Medicare is less than 3% so you would think that the insurance companies would be happy with more than a 10% profit but 10% is chump change to them...

So down the road the US will have to revisit single payer and adopt it or just give up trying to have a healthy population able to compete globally...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 04:37 PM

Okay, here's another one. I can't vouch for this, but this is what I have been told.

Among fairly recent innovations in medical diagnosis are various kinds of scanning machines: CAT scanners, MRIs, etc. These machines are very pricey, running, so I've been told, in the millions per gizmo.

In many countries, including Canada, or so I've been told, most major population centers have these devices. But if hospital A in, say Vancouver, B.C. doesn't have one, they send you to hospital B for the necessary scan. Reciprocal agreement kind of thing.

But in Seattle alone, I know for a fact that there are many of these scanners. If Swedish Hospital has an MRI machine and a CAT scanner, Providence Hospital (a few blocks away) has to have them also. Northwest Hospital has them. The Virginia Mason Hospital has them. Valley General has them. The Polyclinic has them. They ALL have BOTH CAT scanners and MRIs ! Apparently, there are no reciprocal agreements.

I have been told that there are more CAT scanners and MRIs in the Greater Seattle area than there are in the entire country of Canada. But just about every hospital and clinic in this area is up to date with the latest equipment, by God!

And these very valuable but very expensive diagnostic devices must be paid for. So they use them a lot. Sometimes I think they'll order a scan if you have a hangnail!!

And, of course, they bill the insurance company—whose premiums keep ascending like an out of control blimp with a real gas problem.

Yeah. Something stinks all right!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 05:30 PM

The strange thing is, I understand, most Americans think that people in other countries envy them rather than pity them.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 05:33 PM

The strange thing is, I understand, most Americans think that people in other countries envy them rather than pity them.

Incisive as ever! ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 05:46 PM

We know that, McG... Only the Republicans think that everyone envies US... Or at least the ones trying to get votes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 08:19 PM

Personally, I think the OP was a conflation of hyperinflated vitriol concocted with equal parts spiteful generalization and inaccurate assertion. But that's just me, probably! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:28 PM

Amos - as usual, Saw pops in, drops a shit bomb, and sits back laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:32 PM

Saws is a troll... Nothin' new here...

Might of fact, I'd be willing to bet that Sawz is someone else here who has access to two computers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:51 PM

Bobert:Wrong again, GfinS... Nelson was bribed into what was finally passed, not single payer..."

Read again, Oh wise one!...Methinks you must be peaking on acid!

"You must have forgotten yours. Nelson was bribed, as was Kucinich. Single payer would have been 'better'. Obamacare has NOTHING to do with 'health'......"

Gosh, and you're bragging that YOUR guys could be bribed for their vote...WAY TO GO, BOBBSIE!!

BTW, Did I ever mention 'corruption'?????

Oh, and get that 'buzz' fixed......OHH I get it, You're buzzed!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:58 PM

So Bobert is buzzed from time to time. What's your excuse, Gust from Sanity? All you do is fight.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:08 PM

Speaking of shitbombs, is anybody here besides me getting totally fed-up with Gust from Insanity's perpetual ragging of Bobert--who seems to be his/her/its target du jour lately?

He/she/it can't seem to say anything without accompanying the comments with totally uncalled for and highly unimaginative insults. And as usual, the coward hides behind anonymity.

Shows the nature of his/her/its real character.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:16 PM

So, GfinS, what is you point???

You made the statement that the Dems could have had whatever they wanted...

That was a lie...

I pointed out that Nelson and Leiberman said no, no, no to single payer...

That gave the Dems only 58 yes votes... Never mind that was a majority as in "majority rule"...

Now your story is that Nelson was bribed... Hey, insane one, I don't deny that... Yes, they had to bribe Nelson to get to 60 votes for the final legislation which was a million miles from "single payer"...

BTW, I admitted that Nelson was bribed to get the final poduct...

What does this matter, insane one???

I have told the truth... You have lied...

Period!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:36 PM

Thanks, Don, but I'm all grown up and had the privilege/curse of having to represent myself in court (plaintiff) in law suits in over 50 cases so I can handle myself under fire...

GfinS has a love/hate relationship with me... Probably goes both ways... No big deal here... Yeah, she's a pain-in-the-butt but, hey, she is usually on the wrong side of arguments so who cares...

Beating her in debates is like pop-corn-with-movie-butter for me... She is easy...

So don't worry, anyone... GfinS and I have this thing figured out... No, make it "I got it figured out"... Like to keep her guessing and graspin' at straws...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:32 PM

Okay, I'm cool with that. I sort of wonder, however, if GfS has the intelligence to realize what a complete CLICKY he/she/it looks like to intelligent, civilized folk.

The downside, of course, is that there may come a time when he/she/it wants to be taken seriously for a change.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:32 AM

Don, I've noticed for a long time, that you have a fixation with asses...are you implying that bestiality should be a 'civil right'??

I don't have a love hate Jones, either, I was merely replying to his party's flag waving post...and equally, as merely, pointing out to him that he was incorrect...then he came back, wasted, and thought some Thorazine, would help. What's so insulty about that???

Don: "He/she/it can't seem to say anything without accompanying the comments with totally uncalled for and highly unimaginative insults. And as usual, the coward hides behind anonymity."

Come on, Don, you've seen the video..heard the music..you know what I am and what I look like .... ...anonymity??????...unimaginative????...hostile???? You didn't listen close enough....or could feel a thing...oh, I nearly forgot..you're an activist...too bad...
...You sparkle when you do music!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:48 AM

You're below the belt as usual, GfS, and implying things that are not the case.

No, I don't know what you look like, and I haven't listened to it all, so maybe I missed something. What I did hear sounded like cut-rate Vangelis to me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:53 AM

Well there's four, two with guitars and vocals, and two with keyboards. Cut rate Vangelis???? What next?..Yanni??


Oh, Respectfully...(but only in music....it's a higher calling, anyway)
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:58 AM

Perhaps I should give them another listen. The problem is that the way you behave in these discussions makes it difficult to listen to your music objectively.

Care to give the links again?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:14 AM

Let's take a look back . . . this thread was started by Sawzaw - that's a strike against rational discussion right there.

Then there was this Gust from inSanity post:

Bobert: "Unfortunately, the Affordable Care Act is all the Dems could get this time around... By 2024 we will have single payer but...."

NONSENSE!!!..Absolute NONSENSE!! They could have gone for anything they wanted...majority in the House and Senate, President who would sign it, plenty of bribes and waivers...jeez Bobert, you're whole premise is off!
I mean, I guess it means NOTHING to you that the American public doesn't want it...BECAUSE of all the non-related medical shit that is in it..you know, those nasty 'little' pesky intrusions by the government and corporations.

Gust forgets that the "BlueDog Democrats" were working against this as hard as any GOP member. Democrat in name only. DINO. I guess that's what they are. I hope they are all un-elected this time 'round, because they certainly squandered the Democratic majority when it existed. For some reason known only to them.

Then Bobert correctly reminded Gust that

As per usual, GfinS, you once again have forgotten to take your memory pills...

Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman, both Dems threatened early to not vote for anything that resembled single payer... Nelson was just a blue dog with more red than blue and Lieberman the recipient of big donations from the health insurance lobby...

Go back and study your history because you are wrong as wrong can be on this one...

Joe Lieberman is from CONNECTICUT. The MOTHERSHIP of all Insurance Companies. And Nelson is a fool.

Jack the Sailor nailed it with:

I'm beginning to think that the real base of the Democratic Party are the people with functioning long term memories.

Kendall wisely observed:

The only people I have heard say "The whole country does not want Obama care" are republicans, those who already have health insurance, and victims of right wing fear mongers.

Don Firth gave a CLASSIC example of why the health insurance business is corrupt and broken, and Richard Bridge observed

The US medical system is broken - but Obama's moves were a small step in the right direction.

You can't have a civilized society without healthcare.

Bobert came back in and offered a look back at his experiences with commercial (private, for profit) healthcare:

One night I was doodling and figured that since '89 when I went into business for myself that I forked over right at $100,000 in premiums and then tried to think of what I got for it and all I could recall the insurance companies actually paying for was a shingles vaccine which cost them about $100... Other than that??? Nada, zero, zip...

One part of the Affordable Care Act, that the insurance companies hate and why they gave some much money to Dick Armey (FreedomWorks) to organize and fund the Tea Party, is a provision that the participating insurance companies will pay out 85% for health care??? I know... Horrors that health insurers have to pay out for health care...

BTW, the administrative costs for Medicare is less than 3% so you would think that the insurance companies would be happy with more than a 10% profit but 10% is chump change to them...

So down the road the US will have to revisit single payer and adopt it or just give up trying to have a healthy population able to compete globally...

And I think the last word on this should go to Richard Bridge:

Of course the Kucinich single-payer scheme would have been better, but no-one in their right mind could want to continue the traditional US free-for-all under which "living was a thing that money could buy" ( a quote from "All my trials").

It was a lucid and civil conversation when Gust from inSanity wasn't flying off the handle and making unsupported charges. It still comes out a reasonable discussion if you simply skip over her drug-impaired rants.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:47 AM

Thank you, Silly, for your up to the minute re-cap.
You mean, it was only 'civil' when the parrots squawk in unison?

I also said, "Yes! We need health care...but THIS bill should have NEVER seen the light of day!
It SUCKS!"

And I am correct...and with the majority of Americans....by EVERY poll!
Including the Democrats who are 'bailing out of Obama care'!!!!
Wake up!
They voted for it because a lot of these fine upstanding 'Representatives' (of the 'who'?)...took bribes or waivers to get their vote. The bill was so fucking wonderful, that to get their vote..they wanted their state, or group, exempt with waivers..... Sounds like they really knew what was in it that it took them a WAIVER!!!..get a fucking clue!
This was a shitty bill from day one!

Nice try at being snide...but you're out of touch!

........................................................

Don: "Perhaps I should give them another listen. The problem is that the way you behave in these discussions makes it difficult to listen to your music objectively.
Care to give the links again?"

Don, perhaps it's the PERCEPTION of 'how you behave in these discussions' that has affected your objectivity....I'll buy that.
If these is a hostile vibe about me, it would SURELY be detectable in the music. Music says more, than dealing with semi-literate political diatribes. Music is a higher expression..by a long shot! Music unites,politics divide.

Ok...this one should have four videos. 'Bittersuite:Joy' is about a half hour long...in light movements, the first part has a low intro, because it was being performed LIVE, (your classical studies would tell you why)....with NO pre-programming, every note heard, is played right there.

In 'My Lady' the lyrics have multiple meanings....all accurate.
separately, or linked

Just read the notes...it's self explanatory.

Kick back...turn it up, if you're hooked up to a stereo. ..or use headphones

GfS




GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: saulgoldie
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 05:00 AM

I repeat: Ignore the trolls, and they will eventually get bored and go to another forum, until they get ignored there enough, and move on again. Just fuckin ignore them!

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:03 AM

SRS, you are entirely correct. I generally find that I miss nothing but a small bit of aggravation if I pass by GfIS's posts entirely and only read the actual discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:10 AM

No, GfinS, this bill ***HAD*** to be passed!!!

Doing nothing and allowing 45,000,000 people to either not have health care or having it and not paying for it isn't what responsible and civilized countries are about...

BTW, who pays for the health care that is provided and not paid for???

The rest of us do...

It's true that the Affordable Care Act isn't perfect but in the words of the late Ted Kennedy, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good"...

Down the road when the knuckle-draggers have figured out that people are just ignorin' their collective temper tantrum we will revisit the Affordable Care Act and move toward a single payer system similar to the countries that have already figured out that it is a lot cheaper and producing better health care...

Until then who knows what the knuckle-draggers, including the 5 Supreme Clowns, will do to "stand in the doorway and block the halls"??? That's what knuckle-draggers do...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:54 AM

Bobert, I posted a link, a while back, that included some of the provisions that made that bill, a piece of crap.
You seem to overlook,(or just can't help yourself), that there is TOO MUCH in that bill, that has NOTHING to do, with 'health care'.
...and if they really wanted a national health care bill they could have done it without all the crap.
I think some on the left, who get pandered to, just see an 'entitlement', and start drooling regardless of the freedom trashing control stuff that goes with it!!..so much, that it dwarfs anything near a benefit. This bill has too much of that shit in it....or why is everybody distancing themselves from it???? They finally found out 'What was in it', to quote Pelosi.
Now you call the Supreme Court, a bunch of clowns. HEY!
How come everybody is a 'clown' or bad guy, who opposes the bill?
Why don't you vote to elect Obama as permanent dictator, if you don't like our form of government??
...and instead of blaming everybody, who has common sense, maybe take an objective look at 'WHY'(that evil word again), growing opposition to the bill..that the Democrats passed, without reading..INCLUDING YOU!
So, once again, you are spouting off, about something you really don't know too much about, now aren't you?
Ain't the first time.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 10:20 AM

First of all, going thru a bill of this magnitude there are going to be things that folks don't like... Even Obama has admitted this and, unlike you and your Tea Party heros, has shown to be flexible as the ACA gets implemented... But then again I wouldn't expect folks as hate-filled as you understand the concept of "flexibility" as it isn't part of the oath ya'll take to hate anything and everything that Obama does...

As for the Supreme Court??? The 5 clowns (Thomas, Kennedy, Alito, Roberts and Scalia) make the "Warren Court" look like Bot Scouts...

They are not judges... They see themselves as the Supreme Congress...
They rig elections... They bust the average working class man or women every chance they can... They are nothing but puppets for all the Boss Hog, Incs in America...

It is said that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"... The Supreme Court has been in the hands of the Republican right going back 43 years... 12 of the last 16 justices have been appointed by Republicans... That is why these clowns think they are God Almighty... Do you know when the last time that Clarence Thomas asked a question of anyone before the court??? It's been years... That not justice... That is buffoonery...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:09 PM

Sooner or later the Repuglicans will have to wake up and realise that in a civilised society there are indeed things to which people are entitled. The first is legal justice and arguably the second is social justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:20 PM

Sounds like there's lots of city folks here. I have a load of sand to offer and it's free. Just come get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:21 PM

As I have said many times, I have been a "socialist" all my life and a strong supporter of what used to be one of life's miracles....our wonderful National Health Service.

It was a miracle, serving up medical treatment to all who needed it, free at the point of service.
Looking back I now see that it has been abused by everyone, patients, NHS workers, GPs, consultants, drug companies,PFI builders....

The ethos of service has gone and it has become nothing but a financial "black hole"...a money trough, from which every charlatan and crook fills their pockets.

Be very careful what you wish for Americans!
Without a complete change in the public mindset these fine idealistic ventures are set ot fail, there is no point in leaving children in charge of the sweet shop.

Little Hawk has explained that the answer is within each and every one of us....on a personal level.
All of the Parties, even nominally socialist ones are wedded to a system which says "grab what you can before someone else does"....except when said system is in the shit, then its "were all in this together", which is code for "give us your fuckin money/labour, or we will starve you out.
Someboby said, "There aint no left wing an'right wing.....there's just up wing an down wing"......Its still true, tho' the left, right, up, down have got pretty much mixed up.

Forget the labels start thinkin' like LH

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:23 PM

EEEEEEEK!!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 05:19 PM

Dont be afraid Don, thinkin' ain't nuthin' to be scared of.

The really frightening thing is that reasonably intelligent people still have faith in this crazy system.
Or perhaps you see it as self preservation.....the "there's always someone worse off than me" syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 05:20 PM

Here's the real story, Ake... The current Republican Party wants to dismantle our single payer health care program, Medicare, and privatize it...

You won't find one Democrat advocating such a radical move toward Ayn Rand's perfect world...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 06:00 PM

It's not thinking that I find scary, Ake. I do a lot of it, and do it quite well, as a matter of fact. It's the idea of thinking like Little Hawk that tends to fill one with horror!!

####

GfS—Michael—if that's you at the keyboard, you even look a bit like Vangelis.

Very nice, but I'm afraid that we're operating in different spheres. To me, these pieces just noodle around a lot and don't seem to have any kind of center or direction. Best I can describe it is "New Age Abstract Impressionism." But then, perhaps that's what you're aiming at.

Don't get me wrong. If this is a criticism, it is well intended and comes from a basis of considerable knowledge.

One of the music schools I went to was the Cornish College of the Arts (music, dance, acting, graphic arts), essentially a conservatory. Cornish has a long and interesting history, with a number of prominent graduates. Dancer Merce Cunningham, painter Mark Tobey, and newscaster Chet Huntley, among other well-known nmaes. The current faculty reads like a "Who's Who in the Arts." It's a great place for the serious practicing musician (or dancer or graphic artist or actor).

During Cornish's long history, it's had some—interesting—people pass through. One was composer John Cage. Very—um—avant garde. One of his major works was "Four Minutes and Thirty-Three Seconds of Silence" during which the musicians sat on stage and did nothing. The content of the symphony consisted of whatever environmental sounds there were. Coughing, audience shuffling their feet, any kind of ambient reverberation in the hall, a car horn beeping in the street outside. . . .

Another was "Symphony for Ten Radios." In this, there were ten small kitchen radios, each one sitting on a small table, and each tuned to a different station. The "musicians" sat at the tables and followed the score, which consisted of lots of rests. They would silently maintain a beat, then, when indicated in the score, that particular "musician" would turn the volume up or down. Every time the "symphony" was played, it was entirely different, dependent upon what each station happened to be broadcasting at the moment.

Cage was there in the late 1930s to the early 1940s. I had a much older friend who attended one of Cage's recitals at the school. My friend said that the major mistake they made during the recital was having an intermission. . . .

When I was there (1963-65), the Cornish faculty didn't like to talk much about John Cage. But Cage went over fairly well with a small, very artsy and esoteric klatch in New York City.

In addition to the usual classes in music theory and composition, and private lessons in voice or instrument, they offer courses in how to program a concert or recital, the business side of music (did you know that you could deduct the cost of guitar strings as a business expense?), and how to deal—or not deal—with agents and managers. Serious stuff for serious musicians.

Cornish College of the Arts.

Anyway. . . .

Actually, I like what Vangelis does. VERY evocative!

1492: The Conquest of Paradise.

Cosmos

Highly recommended: This is Your Brain on Music, by Daniel J. Leviton

Don Firth

P. S. Sorry for the interruption, folks. Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 07:00 PM

Don Firth,
    As I've posted, in regards to this music, it was intentionally simple, in structure...a series of 'movements, (I prefer 'vignettes') in a way that tells a story...BUT, as long as we're here, I want to THANK YOU..for your critique....YOURS is one that I value, because in this area, you know what you are saying.
As I said before, in music you sparkle!!..and one would do themselves a good turn, to take in your input, musically, seriously.......and to tell you the truth, I've been rather 'anxious' for a while, to get your feedback....so, thank you, again....and by the way, the timing was right..of all people, YOU put me in the place where your 'hit' qualifies me to 'monetize', if I choose. So far, I didn't compose it FOR money..so I won't decide about that, for a bit.
Did you listen to more than one?.....I thought the one ('My Lady') has some very nice guitar work...though, again simple..just tasty, without too much of it, and the 'lead guitar' works off the lyrics, nicely, without taking attention away from the words.
All that said, and I've got some stuff, yet to put up, online, that is VERY different...and I'd think more conventionally formed.
..and one more thing......no hostility, no resentment, or anything NEAR the perception of 'GfS'.

Thank you for taking the time...when I get home, I will save your post, and compare notes even more closely.

Regards,

GfS

Oh, and as far as the thread.....'Right Wing', and 'Left Wing' are on the same bird...and that bird, has been 'bought' and paid for, by the same owner. It was done very underhandedly, corruptly.. for the profits of that owner..not the people who were given 'promises' as a sales pitch....as a 'bait and switch' scam......some of you just haven't figured out yet, that you've been had!
But you will.....Glass-Steagal, I'm sure, was sold to you...as was 'NAFTA'..and Clinton fucked up, on both of those.....while CLAIMING it was for the 'good' of the people......question is, 'Which people'??
The banksters, who made their profits, then shut the door, behind them...BTW, same with 'Citizens United'.
Truth is, we've been screwed, and the political parties, are still insistent on saying "Thank You, do it some more!!!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 07:29 PM

Okay, I'll step up to the plate, as well...

The music is delicious... I was a closet Windham Hill junkie back in those days...

Is that your stuff, GfinS???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:31 PM

It may be a matter of my personal taste, Michael, but there were two things about "My Lady," which are actually interrelated. First, I was only able to pick up about one word out of three in the lyrics due to—what? "Overproduction?" Electronic echo and electronic sustain of the instruments. I have good speakers, plus I have a pair of pricy studio-quality headphones.

Examples of what I'm talking about: Roger McGuinn, formerly lead singer of The Birds (Seeger's "Turn, Turn,Turn") has a most interesting web site called "The Folk Den." Having focused lately on essentially traditional folk songs (as contrasted with "folk songs" written in the 1960s or just last week), It's an on-going project of his to record songs and post them on the web site for anybody to make use of.

He gives you the words and the chords he uses, along with some background notes on the song, and an MP3 you can listen to and/or download. Thank you, Roger McGuinn!

But—my one criticism of the MP3s is they are generally overproduced. He will lay down a couple of guitar tracks, then overdub his singing of the melody with his singing of a harmony line. Along with some in-computer studio effects. A simple, straightforward single voice singing the melody, accompanied by a single guitar—without all the overdubbing and in-studio and in-computer horsefeathers—would be sufficient. Fine! Very nice, actually.

Another example. I am acquainted with a young woman living nearby who has a very nice singing voice, and she writes her own songs (CLICKY). She did a CD recently and a friend of hers produced it for her, adding a guitar track (she doesn't play, herself, she just sings), a drum track (EEEK!!), and did some hanky-panky with various effects, including horsing around with Melodyne. Amazingly enough, the ten songs (kinda sparse for a CD) came through okay. The guitar was fine. But some of the other additions—especially the total unnecessary and quite intrusive drum track—definitely do not enhance Misty's efforts at all. Too bad!

Unfortunately, poor Misty has a box of about 250 CDs in a closet, out of which she has sold . . . well, not that many. I bought one from her in the spirit of "support your local musician." (Not bad, actually. Except for that @%$&ßq# drum track!!)

Just a suggestion: you might want to try recording something just "bare nekkid," just as it comes out of the voice and the instruments and listen to that very carefully and ask yourself, "If I add any effects to this, is it going to enhance it? Or is it just going to clutter it up?" Keep a raw copy and try adding whatever effects (a touch of reverb, perhaps?) you think would spruce it up. Then listen carefully to it, AND the original. Does it really help?

Experiment.

And this may sound like strange advice from one who, on these threads, keeps getting dubbed a "loony liberal," but with what one puts on a recording, it's much better to err on the conservative side than to throw in everything including the kitchen sink!

But it's your work. You have to do the deciding.

Cheers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 10:05 PM

Nah, Don... When we were young we wanted to play everything we knew in every song... Good music is knowing what not to play...

The late Danny Gatton, i.e. "World's Best Unknown Guitar Player" never got over it... Yes, technically he was maybe the best technician... Just never learned to pare down...

The other late Carlos Castaneda in his writings of Don Juan talked about the concept of seeing by not seeing... I understand this... I have a knack for finding 4 leaf clovers... If there is one among a thousand, I'll see only it... Mature musicians leave out the 3 leaf clovers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:52 PM

Don,
   You are the first person to say they couldn't understand the lyrics to that song...that being said, the song originally was done 'barefoot'(no sound processing). In the mix-down on THAT version, it was run through a TRUE stereo chorus, which split the signal, and with a VERY slight delay, from right to left(or the other way around...almost like politics, grin)...some of the fidelity or clarity was lost, but it never seemed like that much. I'm going to review it, now that you brought it up.
"Bittersuite:Joy" (the long one), also has a version, with percussion(Timpani's mostly toward in the last 'movement') and Orchestra Crash Cymbals, French Horns, and a brass section. What you heard was from an 'open mike', with just me. The fun part of it was, that, as you know, a lot of 'open mikes', guys are up there with acoustic guitars, harmonicas, sometimes a flautist...and stuff like that. When the keyboards were being carried up, and set up, most people ASS-umed they were going to hear, either blues, a Hammond B-3, or something 'honky-honky'....and what they heard, through a Mackie board, with 4200 watts, in stereo, blew their shit away!!..LOVED IT!!! another standing 'O', with tears running down a lot of their cheeks. As a player, who could ask for more?...and subsequent gigs, unless I got those two things, I thought I fucked up!..(only happened once..but it was all I needed, to FOCUS more into the nano-second of every emotion, in every note.
Anyway, Thank you again...and I'm going to be going through it, AGAIN, with a 'fine tooth comb'!

Bobert, Yes, that was me....I've got some jazz and blues, completely different, and some film soundtrack stuff, that I'll be posting soon, once I get my other computer up and running. It will be on a 'private' YouTube video, which means by permission only...and I can only do 50 people....You two, will automatically have that permission along with Little Hawk, and virtually any of my adopted Mudcat Family!
(I mean what the hell, we all bicker like family members....let's offset that, with the good times!!).
"Bittersuite:Joy" was originally written for a film soundtrack and score (which usually gets picked apart, anyway), and when 'Lightstorm' (Avatar, Titanic and others) were going over it, 911 happened...and ALL the film industry stopped EVERYTHING and ALL productions, figuring there was going to be a MAJOR change of direction. They LOVED the script..which BTW, is so absolutely timely for now, it would blow your minds...(even Paramount said it was 'ahead of it's time' but wanted the musical score, and soundtrack...BEFORE even reading the script...made me an offer, too...but I didn't want to separate the two....stupid me!)
All that stuff will be up in a bit..I think you'll like it...and BTW, I'm looking for some vocalists. I have one piece that I have reserved for Little Hawk to have first dibs.

Warmest Regards to You Guys!
(So much more unifying, than 'politics')....
Until we Bicker Again......Smiles,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:58 PM

Bobert: "... Good music is knowing what not to play..."

YES, and Don will know this...sometimes you play the 'holes'.
make it 'conversational'.
Wait till you hear the other vocals, and the stuff with a female vocalist....She'll make you know what to do...without telling you..and you'll be 'in Love'.

Same as before....,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 12:03 AM

Gust - I wish you'd stick to music. It's much more interesting than your view of politics. Seriously. You politics are so off-putting I wonder how many people actually followed your link to the music? THAT is beautiful. The politics is abhorrent.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 12:46 AM

Stilly, Most ALL politics is abhorrent! It's built on too many lies, deception and manipulations. As Adlai Stevenson once said, (He ran for President four times), "By the time a man is nominated for President, he is no longer fit for the job.".......So true...and we ALL know why!

Regards, Stilly
..Glad You Liked the Music.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 10:48 AM

Was there a warm breeze here a minute ago? Oh, it was just more hot air from a troll. Nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 11:31 AM

Mrs Carmichael had her fifth, looked at the job with repulsion,
Said to the midwife 'Take it away; I'm through with overproduction'...

Louis MacNeice

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 12:23 PM

Saulgoldie: "Was there a warm breeze here a minute ago? Oh, it was just more hot air from a troll. Nevermind."

You brought it in, now take it out.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 03:28 PM

Back to politics for a moment:

The Adlai Stevenson quote is very glib and very quotable, but, much as I liked Stevenson at the time, I fear that by making such a statement, he was committing what is known as "the fallacy of self-exclusion."

One of the problems in these political discussions, Michael, is that what both you and Little Hawk are saying (and Little Hawk somewhat more politely than you, I fear) is nothing that we "loony liberals" don't already know. You're preaching to the choir.

But we "loony liberals" are at least seeking a solution. Whereas if all you seem to be doing is blanketly condemning ALL politicians, and then do nothing but heap insults upon those who DO support (even with reservations) one politician or another over the rest, you are simply giving up and trying to encourage others to give up too! That, put bluntly, is the coward's way. Loony liberals like myself—and Bobert, for example—are not about to flop down and roll over that easily. We at least vet the various possibilities on an otherwise unappetizing menu and try to choose someone who will, if not save the country, at least not wreck it quite as quickly as some of the others. Playing for time, if nothing else.

And picking "nice guy" candidates who are simply not in the running is not an intelligent option. I like Dennis Kucinich very much and would have voted for him had he been running. But he didn't even get on the ballot. And when was the last time in the country's history that a write-in candidate—or, for that matter, a third party candidate—got elected?

I'm sure as hell not going to vote for Mitt Romney. And knowing a great deal about the beliefs of Ron Paul, I'm sure as hell NOT going to vote for HIM, even if he did say he would end the war in Afghanistan (which is an empty promise anyway).

Of viable candidates, that leaves the incumbent, Barack Obama. Unless something really weird happens at the Democratic convention.

I had great hopes for Obama early on, but among other things, he has had to contend with a Congress that is perfectly willing to see the whole country go to Hell rather than let Obama get anything through. Obama apparently doesn't have the force of personality that someone like FDR had. The Repubs hated FDR as much as they hate Obama, but somehow FDR managed to get the people behind him. Obama has not demonstrated anywhere near the charisma that Roosevelt had.

But—seriously—what are the alternatives? Rather than sitting back and smugly heaping abuse on those of us who are trying to find ways to keep our leaders from driving the country off a cliff, let's hear how YOU would at least TRY to prevent that?

Fair enough?

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, I know a number of politicians personally who are ethical, caring people, not the bribe-grubbing vermin you and others characterize them as. And I have worked on a couple of political campaigns. But I do NOT belong to any political party.

So I'm not politically naïve. Been there! Done that!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 03:48 PM

Music question, GfinS...

On another Google joint the song appears and there is a mention of two guitars... I don't hear two guitars... I kinda hear one with several layers of electronics and hear synthesizer stuff and maybe even a metalaphone???

What is the instrumentation and what electronics are used???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 04:17 PM

Don if you dont make any attempt to understand those with different political views....Tea partiers....Rednecks...Commies...Conservatives, there is no chance of change and a better society.

All you seem to see is hatred all around you.....I believe Bobert, for all his rhetoric at times has more depth, he appears to understand all sorts of folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 04:30 PM

No hatred here, Ake. More of your kind of spin. I DO understand different political view and those who hold them. Do YOU?

Judging from things you've said in the past, your solution to the problem is to storm the Winter Palace. Been done. Didn't work out that well, did it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 06:47 PM

Wrong, Ake... I don't understand wackos... I find them interesting, however...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 07:21 PM

Bobert,
I don't know what songs you're talking about?..Mine??..or something else?? If you got a link, or the name of the song, I may be able to help you out better.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:04 PM

"My Lady"???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:40 PM

OK..Two guitars, one acoustic and one electric.(if you recall in another post, when we were talking about instruments, I mentioned my Strat, made for me at the factory, and I mentioned the tone and sustain, being as it was made with very hard wood)...and that's all, and 'My Lady' was recorded LIVE, no dubbing, and the vocals were also LIVE, at the time of our playing...recorded in the back yard patio, right into the board. Mike Llona is playing a Takamine. Most of the processing, which was done 'in line' was because of the compressor (MXR, old one). Very little on the compressor side, more on the output9 like a pre-amp. Boss stereo chorus, using VERY little effect, Yamaha DM 1000 digital delay, minumal delay time and very little 'feedback'. The key to using effects, is only to shape the sound..if you HEAR the actual effect, you probably have it turned up too high.
The very most important 'effect' is your finger on the string!!!!!..and listening CAREFULLY!!
If you are trying to get a 'certain sound' on your axe, tell me what you're aimin' for...I can most likely get you there.

Your 'Delicious' just keeps being stuck in my head. Never heard that before, in describing music..or a songs.
BTW, was there one that you were more partial to?
The same effects were used for 'What Would You Care?'...we banged that out in about an hour and a half, when a producer wanted something with the same 'calling card' as 'My Lady'..he loved the unique(at the time) sound.
I need to emphasize, is the presence of your fingers, should NEVER be run over by effects.....just a little dab will do ya'!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:51 PM

Lotta electronics... Them ain't acoustic guitars by themselves... I done played in too many old time stringed bands to know that...

Come cleaner, GfinS, on the electronics... Acoustic guitars don't do this shit...

But, yeah... The sound is delicious... The only thing that I've done that approached this was on my 1908 pedal organ where I could completely control the tamber with my feet... Very "New Age-ie"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:51 PM

There's a difference between political convictions and whackos, I suggest. The whacko uses political as a trhetorical vehicle for his buried dissonance and despisal, a channel for bile. There ARE such things as political convictions around socialism, communism, and the Tea Party, for example; their positions just tend to get drowned out by the whackos.

I think, personally, that most such need to go back to Life's Laboratory and recheck their results, but I don't begrudge them their slipshod work.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:59 PM

Danged, Amos... We was having a discussion o' music and go and throw cold water over all that and...

...well, yer right!!!

What the hell is going on here???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 12:17 AM

Bobert: "Danged, Amos... We was having a discussion o' music and go and throw cold water over all that and...
...well, yer right!!!
What the hell is going on here???"

A clear and living demonstration, as what went down in the 'Why Closed threads?' thread......a CLEAR DEMONSTRATION of music unites..politics divide.
Almost forgot that there is 'allegedly' divisions, between us...but in the HIGHER realm, there is not!
..and as I've said before, 'Music is a higher calling'...wanna' be small?

Bobert, I'm not pulling your leg, there are NO synths in that piece, and if you listen closely, you can discern only two guitars..I KNOW, I WAS THERE!!!

'Delicious!'..LOVE IT!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 12:53 AM

Cecil and lansing were on the other guitars...
Sorry.
Memory of an elephant and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 04:54 AM

Meanwhile, how much longer before the lunatic fringe of Republicans etc (I know it's a fine line to draw) admit that Romney is the Republican candidate, and we can return to the simple battle between less evil (Obama) and more evil (Romney)?

Oh, and while I'm on, does anyone know what Ake really wants? I know he's against everything from Gypsies and Poles and homosexuals (well, male ones at least) to plutocrats and politicians, and would tear down everything, but what would he build?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 05:13 AM

I'm a builder, a stonemason to trade, but I cant build a good society.
That's up to you Richard, all the good folks on this forum and in the wider world.

We certainly cannot expect any political system to provide an ever higher standard of living (in financial or material terms), but if we stop hating one another because of phoney political labels and start a real dialogue, together we can build a society which can provide everyone with a "purpose in life"....Isn't that all we need to be happy and fulfilled?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 09:57 AM

Well HELLO-O-O Akenaton!!!
Ironic how when things go 'civil' there are those who, because of a bad case of 'wants' and 'gimmes' they all chime in. These are the people we should listen to?????????
If there is going to be ANY real change, for the people, its going to come up from the people, from the part inside them with compassion for their fellow man, and not by those who are obsessed with disrupting those who actually function with compassion, and care, and Love...because they ran out of thumb to suck.

....and then I get to be the one, the funnel all their resentment for..because THEY can't get their shit together!!

(and Bobert, Firth and I must be legendary, on here, for our 'political difference bickering'...music must be powerful stuff.....even more powerful than the head trips associated with political divisiveness and smugness.

A I have NO political agenda....but I DO have a musical agenda..... Jeez, that pisses of those in polarization-land!!

Oh, and to cure TIA of its bug up the ass fixation... Cecil and lansing I have since come to find out, were names used by some other musicians who stopped by the studio, and during some break time, used my computer. At the time, I had no knowledge that they posted from here. My impression from them was that they thought that a lot of the Mudcatters were just a bunch of silly, contentious wannabees with to much time on their hands, that should have been practicing their chops or doing something productive. But those posts were not authored by me.....so go meditate on your navel..or some other body part, OK?

I hope this demonstrates even further the spirit of the difference, in our little 'living demonstration'....and anyone on here can FEEL the difference of the power of it.........................that is, if you're REALLY concerned with 'Change you can believe in'.

One more thing, Bobert, I've posted before, that musicians should not be on a trip about electronics.....everything you've ever heard on the radio, T.V., CD, tape, iPod, movies, larger live gigs, have all used at least a microphone, and electronics...learn about them, as well, because what you are ultimately doing, even with no mikes,etc, is dealing with SOUND! Play the sound(s). You're axe can even sound better, if while doing so, you zoom into the sound of your instrument, even without any electronics. Some musicians only deal with 'speed' and think those are 'chops'......often it's just , as we used to call it, 'Finger-shit'.

Hey, anything I can do to help you......


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 10:45 AM

Trouble is, Ake, that that parlays into "God save the squire and his relations and keep us all in our proper stations".

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 11:47 AM

Only if you believe money and power equate to happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 11:50 AM

....and the ONLY 'profit' is what you can fold in your wallets!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 12:04 PM

Hi GFS.....Sorry, but I haven't had time to listen to your music.
I shall do so tonight, but I warn you, I'm a harsh critic   :0)

I'm sure it will be interesting and emotional...cheers A.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 03:52 PM

Akenaton: "...I'm a harsh critic   :0)"


GOOD!!!

Akenaton: "I'm sure it will be interesting and emotional..."

I hope so....grins
There are four of them.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 05:36 PM

Hate to drift off here but can you explain what you are playing thru (amps and effects), GfinS, 'cause that ain't straight up geetar... There's lotta electrons gettin' their head twisted to get that sound...
Jus' curious...

BTW, I got some reel-to-reel of new age-y stuff I did in the mid 80s on an old 1908 pedal organ I used to own...

Jus' say no, Nancy said... But did I listen to her???

Wish I still had that organ... The P-Vine has a Technics digital piano that can be clicked over to sounding like an organ but it doesn't have tamber...

Now back to the original slugfest...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 06:48 PM

Don't knock it..Technics actions are fantastic...in fact, that's what I'm playing on "Bittersuite:Joy"..Mine is a PSR1 which at the time of new was $26,000..but I got it way cheaper, and they use them religiously at the Newport Jazz Festival, one is always on stage there. they have a 32 bit sample of a Steinway full concert grand. Don't let her get off that!!!

OK, on "My Lady" I ran through a Carvin 1608 recording board, and recorded right through the board, as opposed to miking the amps. When I mike my amp, I use a Sennheiser mike...my cabinets are a Road bass cabinet(2 15's) AND an old Fender 'bastard' Bandmaster cabinet, that I replaced their crumby speakers, with 2 Carvin High Energy 12's. Unbelievable difference...spits in the milk of my friend who has a Marshall Stack, with 8 Celestion 10's..(even he thinks so!!).

Once out of the guitar, I use 5 channels on the board, yes 5!, to mix each part of the tone. I hope everyone out there is taking notes!!

What I want you to do, at your next convenience, is to mosey to your local GOOD music store, grab your geetar, electrics work better for this, but acoustics are good too, but takes a bit more 'set up'. Find TWO matching amps..EXACTLY the same, plug into a Boss(Roland) Stereo Chorus...NOT ONE WITH ONLY ONE OUTPUT..FUCK THOSE OR THROW THEM AWAY ..it MUST have TWO outputs. Plug into the effect, and if you can, run a compressor first, BEFORE the stereo chorus. Separate the two amps as far as you can...or at least 12 feet apart...match the settings on both amps to be the same. One cord to the stereo chorus..two coming out, one to each amp. DO NOT turn up the speed of the chorus up very high, just minimally, turn up the others, not all the way, (let your ears do the work, there....and play. If you can, face the speakers to face you, but WIDE..(not directly at you)....the sound should fill the room, with NO sense of direction from where the sound is coming(sorta like politics..grin)...and get back to me...anybody, and I WILL help you.
I forgot to mention, I ran a graphic Equalizer, first, when we did "My Lady"...and shape it with the mid-range lower that the highs or bass, but not peaking the highs or bass. If you work your successive volume controls, as not to overdrive them, your GAIN will be phenomenal....and leave people wondering, 'How did he get THAT sound?'
Now, if you do vocals, or for those who do, your highs and lows, on your EQ will keep from muddying up, the words. Then run your mike through a different channel(s), and you can kick the volume up on those, and none of the bass 'roll-off' will fuck with the vocals, nor will the mid-tones of the guitar interfere with the vocals. Your voice is in the mid-ranges....and overlapping them will muddy the clarity.
Try it, you'll like it.
OH, and one more thing I forgot to mention, that I left out, one the guitar, use a LITTLE reverb, but not to make it sound like you're playing in a sewer tunnel...just a bit....when you hear all that, the next thing will be the PRECISION that you play with.....which all the electronics on the planet, will not correct, when playing LIVE. You MUST do your wood-shedding homework!!!!!!!!!!
Practice, practice practice!!!..(besides it will sound so good, it should be hard to pull you away!!).
When I mike an acoustic guitar, we use 3 mikes...unless you have an on board transducer, then use two mikes and the pick-up. Run them through 3 separate channels for the blending of highs and lows, etc etc. From the board, you can assign them to where you want right or left, and mix them, so the right may have the highs, left may have the lows...and set your right and left channels about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 up from being set fully right or left. If you are using analog controls, that would be, as example, right at, let's say (ON A CLOCK DIAL) at 7 o'clock, and the left at 4 o'clock...in other words NOT fully pegged! ..lift them up about 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 UP from being opened all the way.
Try it....

Best of 'luck'(though 'luck' has very little to do with it.....other than the fact, that you got the info!

Politics, Bah Humbug!!!!!

Regards, Ol' Fart!! PLAY WELL!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 06:55 PM

OH BOBERT....."Wish I still had that organ... The P-Vine has a Technics digital piano that can be clicked over to sounding like an organ but it doesn't have tamber..."

Though it is pronouced 'tamber' it is spelled, 'timber'.

Wink!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 06:56 PM

Or even timbre

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 07:30 PM

Spellin' ain't my strong suit...

Timber, tamber or Mitt Romney's Rambler???

Thanks fir the explanation, GfinS... I ain't into that much electron bending with my style of playing which is more juke joint and tube amp but it's interesting to find out how people get their geetars to sound like they do...

Okay, now we can get back to wrestling... What's this thread about??? Hmmmmmm??? Oh yeah... Obamacare???

50,000,000 people aren't covered by any health insurance yet go to emergency rooms and get health care but they don't pay fir it??? Hmmmmm??? who does???

Answer: the rest of us do in increased health care costs that get spread around... Kinda like department stores that tactor shop-lifting in their pricing... Who pays???

Answer: the rest of us do...

Is tha ACA the final answer???

No, but it's the 1st step and the longest journey starts with a...

..single step...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 11:24 PM

If its so good explain: "BS Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc".
What do they realize that they didn't see, or willingly admit, earlier?
What do they know now, that you, a 'Democratic Party Devotee' don't know??..or didn't know, before??

As I've said on here before, about being taught HOW to think, rather than WHAT to think......

Turn on
Tune up
and drop out...

or somethin' like that..

Utilize what I gave you..at least try the stereo chorus with two amps.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 11:54 AM

GfinS,

Consider the source of this thread and you will find that it's the other half of the Mudville Obama Hate Brigade, yer very own Sawzall...

As to "how to think"??? Saying you know how and actually doing it are two different things... You seem to parrot a lot of Fox/Tea propaganda so I suspect you need a thinking refresher course...

As for amps??? Yeah, it can be cool... My Lowebow has one fat .082 bass string and it's own pickup and then 3 treble strings with their own pickup... I have been at festivals were someone from another band has lent me their bass amp and split 'um... Very cool... I like to get the song going thru the first verse & chorus with the treble strings and then bring the bass in... Makes the folks who actually are paying attention go "WTF???"...

I donno if I can talk the mean comptroller, the P-Vine, into another amp but I'd certainly like one...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:01 PM

"I donno if I can talk the mean comptroller, the P-Vine, into another amp but I'd certainly like one..."

A wise man would arrange for a tent to sleep in before said purchase.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Amos
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:10 PM

Windy horse manure does not require explanation, Gusty. That's part of how to think. You don't take arm-waving for data.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 06:58 PM

Let's get this out of the way...real quick!

Bobert: "You seem to parrot a lot of Fox/Tea propaganda so I suspect you need a thinking refresher course..."

Fox News is not my primary source for 'news'..but I turn them on, once in a while. I prefer INFO over commentary. MSNBC and NBC I find extremely weak, and VERY biased, so I don't pay them much mind, and take them with a massive 'grain' of salt. BBC sometimes, NYT sometimes, NPR, PBS, can be pretty good, sometimes...but I have my own sources, which have been HIGHLY reliable. Remember when I posted 8 months ahead of Bush's admission that we were in a recession?..and Bush comes out and says, that we've been in a recession since last December...which just happens to be, when I posted that.
Gulf oil spill??....I had mega info on that, including the gasses, and the correct leakage....and the media slowly upped their numbers..and matched mine.
Gabriel Gifford? Was right about that, when everybody was jumping the gun, as usual...
Homosexual issue...not genetic, but behavioral...turned out to right about that...
What would happen immediately if after Obama was elected..right about that..
McCain's sequestered navel mishaps...right about that...
Zimmerman?...right about that.
Even called what the stock market was going to do..before it did just that.....right again...
and right about the banksters...just that some of you haven't come to grips with their grip on the whole of American politics...
Nafta?....Right again.
The 'Federal Reserve'....even when I posted congressional hearing links, where the Democrats to the lead, in questioning them during the end of Bush's Administration and they (Dems) were correct) Bobert still didn't check them out..because the Dems ans Repubs had reversed their position, after Obama was elected...and the EXACT same argument, was now being defended by some of the left on here,..when before the 'left' was on the attack, saying the SAME thing I was saying!!
Stimulus?. What a fucking joke! They still claim they can't account for a trillion fucking dollars!....and some on here find that excusable...or something like that...jeez..a TRILLION!!..can't find it??..yeah sure!
Shovel ready???...yeah, just keep shoveling bullshit, somebody will eat it up!
Clinton?..What a piece of deceptive crap! Glass-Steagal??...then the economy collapses?....Hilary's wildly profitable 'investments'..you mean insider trading/influence peddling?
Rick Perry, and announcing he was going to run, and who was backing him...A WEEK BEFORE HE ANNOUNCED IT?!?

Want me to go on?
..and I think you think YOU are on some sort of cutting edge...maybe you think you're ahead of inside stuff, and identify with Dylan....but you're deluding yourselves.
Look guys, I'm not rooting for either side..I'm rooting for the PEOPLE, especially for those who have been victimized and blind-sided by the ONE big outfit, which OWNS both parties, and directs the national dialog in a way, that draws suspicion away from them, and has the two CONTROLLED parties, and the arguments...of which some of the most ardent supporters, of those Machiavellian 'issues' get pissed off....too bad!....If you're so 'right', why are you always wrong???
ANSWER: THEY got you 'debating' on the misleading 'issues' that they put before both sides.
Sometimes I'm with ya' ..like when I posted about 'ALEC' and nobody on here had even heard of them, or brought them up.
So I'M fucked up??????????
First of all, I DO NOT believe nearly a damn word that comes from the administration....EITHER OF THEM!!....it works!

Resectfully,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 07:43 PM

"Homosexual issue...not genetic, but behavioral...turned out to right about that..."

No you didn't. Most psychologists and geneticists have said just the opposite.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 07:45 PM

Well, GfinS... That was actually very funny... I mean, it could have been a Rush Limbaugh manifesto/rant/melt down... Now if you want to take any one of these "bird shot" issues out and discuss it then that would be cool...

I challenged OldGuy - or was it Dickey??? - to do the same and let him choose the single issue... He/she picked Katrina so I said, "Fine" and some 800 posts later seems that I was the only one left standing... And we could do that again...

But whereas you seem to get not over-playing music and leaving out stuff you don't get it talking politics and use the "gun shot" approach...

Okay, I may be wordy... But I can focus on a single issue...

I mean, if you just said, "Hey, I hate Obama - or MSNBC or bob-a-links - because ______________" then fine but rather than do that you just blow a lot of smoke up our posteriors and/or throw out so much "free association" generalized FOX/Tea "bird shot" that, no offense intended (just observation), that you appear to be a flailer???

Doesn't help your arguments, BTW...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 07:48 PM

That was hilarious. Most of those were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 09:54 PM

Must be nice to be God in your own universe. You're never wrong!

But it must also be kinda lonely. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 10:05 PM

Not lonely, Don... Loonie??? Yeah...

When folks get all eat up with FOX/Tea mythology they have lots of friends... I mean, all ya' gotta do is read down the GfinS "Bill of Particulars" - mqanifest - to see that she has a room full of mythological friends... All brought to you by the Republican/Fox Party...

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 11:47 PM

Jeez!....Don, make up your mind. The last time you posted about it you said that you never said it was genetic....that blew me away, considering we ate up over 1000 posts on it!
So....here's some reading material: Here....The Truth-O-Meter Says:
Get back to me, if you want after you read up.

Richard Bridge: "That was hilarious. Most of those were wrong."

Coming from YOU, I think that says it all!

Bobert: "Well, GfinS... That was actually very funny... I mean, it could have been a Rush Limbaugh manifesto/rant/melt down... Now if you want to take any one of these "bird shot" issues out and discuss it then that would be cool..."

Make my day!..but this time, when you start getting eaten alive, just stop and think about it....I'm NOT trying to prove ANYTHING political!
You still think, after all this time that the Democratic Party is incorruptible..no matter how much evidence I've given, and the news that breaks all the time...Now mind you, the corruption is NOT limited to one party or the other....their both all fucked up!...but you already knew that, didn't you?..You just hold onto your security blanket of looking the other way!
Oh, maybe you know where that missing Trillion dollars is...maybe the shovel ready jobs buried it, in Corzine's back yard, along with his 800 billion, he can't find...maybe Solyndra's making solar panels with it....or Pelosi's husband used it to 'upgrade' his repossessed homes business..or at least the office...or, maybe they lied about the million dollar GSA party..maybe it was more..or is was used to furnish hookers for the Secret Service....or maybe they gave it to Edwards campaign fund, to pay for his 'mistress'....or gave it to Immelt, for a lifetime supply of Chow Mein, and dim sum, or fortune cookies, for his travels,...or paying off Acorn for the trouble they went through with voter fraud...or..paid you for you upstanding partisanship...or...a lifetime supply of drugs to keep you faithful to the 'party' and 'services rendered'!..or whatever, who cares? You don't. That was more money than the cost of WWII...but duhh, drool.."I dun know where it wents."

Oh, and here's another one for you...we are not in a recession....it's a full blown depression....but because they haven't instructed you what to say, yet, it's just a little 'downturn'.

Now, as far as your pickups the way you described it, do you keep running your base line while working your top strings?...I may have come up with a solution for you....maybe unconventional, but a little innovation, and your problem may be remedied...tell me exactly what you want it to do..and not do....(I may surprise you).
....and 'No', you don't have to reply to the earlier 'amusements'(?).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 11:50 PM

You're twisting what I said, Michael. I don't have time to deal with you right now, but I'll be back tomorrow to straighten you out.

You and the truth are strangers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 02:20 AM

Chew on THIS, Michael.

Then get back to the subject at hand.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:01 AM

From the penultimate sentence of the truth o meter link:

"In reality, most scientists do believe that sexual orientation is caused by biology, rather than by choice."

You really ought to read before you link to something you think supports you.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:28 AM

Bollocks.....Mathew Parriss one of our finest journalists and a homosexual, said recently that homosexuality is in large part choice(Times).

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:34 AM

There is absolutely no evidence for a "gay gene"
If you have such evidence, publish it quickly, as it will make you famous ....and very rich!!

As I have said 179 times, if there was a genetic link it would be as obvious to todays researchers as a black sheep in a flock.
(I'm just looking at one out of the window right now!)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 08:09 AM

Read the truth o meter link.
There is a subtle but very important difference between "genetic origin" and "biological origin".
"Genetic" has not been proven.
"Biological" is greatly favored by science over "choice", although that does not rule out the occasional person who does make a choice.
That one (or several) people do not prove that *all* gays are such by choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:22 AM

Sorry, TIA, but GfinS don't "do" truth... Ya' see, one has to possess, ahhhhh, facts to "do" truth...

I mean, anyone who has ever completed so much of a semester of college economics - and passed the final - would know that the US is not in a "full blown depression"... 2.2% average quarterly growth may not be what we would like to see but it beats the heck out of actual "contraction", i.e. negative/minus% growth that George W. handed over to Obama... Actually, other that faux/Fox/flat-earth economists who all graduated from the Loonie U of Economics, real economists would classify the current economy as being in a "fragile recovery"... And this, in spite of the Republicans all out efforts to impose a failed economic model, expansionary austerity, on the economy???

So they just make up one BIG LIE after another and have their flowerly/patriotic BIG LIE organizations shout them down from the mountain top upon the GfinS's of the world who go out and repeat them like the ditto-heads that they are... "The stimulus didn't create jobs!!!" they scream... "Obama is a socialist" they gleefully scream at the top of their lungs...

And all this makes them feel all warm 'n fuzzy so like a dog barking at nuthin' in the middle of the night they just keep it up just to keep the warm 'n fuzzies going...

What these people should do is enroll in some courses at the local community college so, like that barking dog, they would at the very least know how clueless they are...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 10:15 AM

Yes Bobert.
It is called The Dunning-Kruger Effect

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 10:47 AM

Bobert,
Because I don't go along with the common thinking of the indoctrinated, you ASS-ume, that I get what I know, from Fox, or some conservative source. Has it occurred to you that YOU'VE been indoctrinated to have that very 'trigger response'?...by YOUR indoctrination? I am NOT a Republican. I am NOT 'right wing'. I an NOT a John Birch-er. I am NOT the KKK. I am NOT a Libertarian. I an NOT a Democrat....nor does ANYONE NEED to be any of those things...in fact, being NONE of those things, is a step into CLARITY!!.
Just like the 2.2% figures you quoted...how do you know that they are accurate?? Just like the 8.5% 'unemployment figures'...that only counts those receiving, or applied for unemployment benefits, it does NOT count those whose benefits ran out, or don't apply, or dropped out of the jobs market....your problem is that you believe everything these yokels tell you, as Gospel....Your music would tell you more..and if it's from the heart, might even have some TRUTH in in!

Don, Do you believe that homosexuality is genetic?..Yes or no. No maybes, no 'studies may suggest'...or 'evidence may show'...YES or NO!

Do you believe that all BEHAVIOR is genetic?..as opposed to physical traits? Do you think pathological liars are caused by genetics? Is generosity caused by genetics? Do people choose what they want to do in life, caused by genetics? Is your interest in music, caused by genetics?...Is mine??
Does Bobert's living off P-Vine genetic? Did the lady you knocked up, and raised your kid, without you, genetic? Is there ANYTHING that you people take as personal responsibility....or is it all genetic?
Excuses, excuses, excuses!.....Are the needs for excuses for fuck-ups genetic? Likewise, are the deeds done out of helping your fellow man genetic?....Do you think the inability to discern truth, genetic?..or block-bullheadedness, genetic?
Maybe, huh?
'Evidence suggests'...right in your chair!

TIA: "That one (or several) people do not prove that *all* gays are such by choice."

No, just you.

Hey Akenaton, ever get around to listening to the music?

Regards to All!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 10:50 AM

Agreed with Bobster. And the UK is now officially in a double-dip recession.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:12 AM

Yup, TIA, fits GfinS(sane) to a tee....

Actually, other than Jimmy Carter and Obama I haven't voted for any Democrats going back a long ways... Worked in both '96 and 2000 for Nader and brokered my vote in '04...

Doesn't exactly make me a Democrat...

Problem is that we have a radical train wreck of a party taken over by people who want to turn the country into AynRandLand and they must be stopped... Once that occurs I'll go back to busting on Dems like I've done almost my entire adult life...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:30 AM

"TIA: "That one (or several) people do not prove that *all* gays are such by choice."

No, just you."

Oh yeah. You are definitely an accomplished "Counselor".

Hard to know what (if anything) to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:37 AM

TIA: "Hard to know what (if anything) to believe."

Must be genetic.....shit you can't even believe your gender..those voices must be REAL loud in your head....but it's OK..It's genetic.

Yeah Baby!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 12:07 PM

When I was a social worker I sent a lot of my clients to a clinical psychologist, Dr, Paul Baxter, who I got to know quit well... Well, he had some interesting points of view on lots of subjects and we were having lunch together one day when homosexuality came up and here was his take...

Without getting into gens and DNA, he said that homosexuality came down to what gender people most wanted to be around... Then he pointed out that in every bar across the country the same men would come in after work and stay sometimes for hours talking 'n drinking with other men before going home to their wives??? See where this is going???

Just an interesting sidebar from my social work days...

BTW, I don't particularly care about the DNA, the genes or the choices... They are like arguing about how many angels can dance on the end of a pin... I do care about freedom, tolerance and folks basic "civil" (as in civilization) rights...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 01:21 PM

Some lovely arrangements GfS......very evocative.
I enjoyed them very much, although they are not the type of stuff I usually listen to.
I usually like lyrical pieces....being a nut for words and poetry.
But i think you are very talented indeed...Seascape capures the essence of the west Coast of Scotland, where I live....Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 01:53 PM

You're welcome, Ake! when I wrote that one('Seascape'), I lived right on the beach in So. California, as well, when we did 'My Lady'...you can hear the waves in both of them, but in 'My Lady' it's in the way the instruments are played, rather than using a synth to generate the crashing of the waves.
We did those even before the concept of 'New Age' music even came up, AND before MIDI was even standardized! 'Seascape' was do on a Roland Juno 60, and recorded on a Teac 3340, three tracks.

Bobert: "...Without getting into gens and DNA, he said that homosexuality came down to what gender people most wanted to be around..'

Ahem...Listening Don??

..and BTW, I'm not moralizing of casting 'value judgments' or 'moral value judgments' on it,...but, I.m not going for the load of crap shoveled out for rationalizations, either. You guys can, that's up to you....it must be genetic.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:19 PM

It has been solidly established that there is a strong biological component to sexual orientation. The assumption is that it is genetic, because it has all of the characteristics of a genetic trait, but the specific gene or genes have not yet been isolated. There is one school of thought that maintains that geneticists have been looking in the wrong place, and that the mother carries the gene(s) and this effects the timing of the release of hormones when the individual is in utero, and this determines the gender orientation of said individual.

Because the specific gene or genes has not yet been found does not mean that gender orientation is not genetic.

There are actual, measurable differences in the hypothalamus of gay and straight people. ONE of a NUMBER of factors that indicate a physiological basis for gender orientation (beyond the obvious, of course).

Sorry Ake and Michael, but those are the facts. And I can link to dozens of articles by recognized authorities in the fields of genetics, physiology, brain-science, and psychology that support what I have just written.

Why don't you two guys get a room together? Or—would that be too scary for you two?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:46 PM

So easily settled:

You can prove it's a choice...

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 04:55 PM

You know, thinking back to my callow youth, I don't remember anyone ever asking me to fill out a questionnaire.

I remember being attracted to a girl or two in my neighborhood when I was around twelve or thirteen. Then when I got to high school, the number of freshly nubile young women I found in my proximity had me chewing the edge of my desk a lot and contemplating future delights with a great deal of impatience. I was standard horny teenaged boy.

It was in high school that I first heard someone call another boy "queer." The boy in question was a bit on the effeminate side and aspired to be an actor. I didn't know what that epithet referred to and had to have it explained to me. The whole idea—that men might want to have sexual-type relations with other men, or women with women—struck me as "simply weird" and didn't appeal to me at all. I liked girls. Still do. I've been happily married for thirty-five years. To a lovely woman of infinite resource and sagacity. We share many interests: various kinds of music, we both write (I write prose, Barbara writes both poetry and prose), we enjoy the same kind of entertainment, and of course, the usual marital delights.

About twenty-five years ago, I had a long, frank conversation with a fellow I knew who was openly gay. Not effeminate or obviously "gay," but he made no secret of it, and he and another fellow had been "roommates" for years. I asked him about the "choice" matter. He put it this way:   

"Considering the kind of prejudice, both job-wise and social, that a gay man frequently encounters, and the attitudes that many people have about homosexuality, INCLUDING the fact that it can get you repeatedly beat up—or killed!—who in the hell in his right mind would CHOOSE to be gay?"

Think about it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:58 PM

No one has implied that it is a REASONED choice.
Any more than the choice to be a smoker is reasoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 06:57 PM

One has a choice what one does. One does not have a choice what one wants to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:05 PM

We lived next door to a gay couple, Jim and Gene, so I never gave it any thought...

Hey, live and let live...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:17 PM

I am of Scottish ancestry. I got that from my forebears. That was not a decision on my part, reasoned or otherwise. It just IS.

And it isn't something I can change just by deciding to.

It has something to do with genes and how I got them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:22 PM

Hmm....another cop out Richard, tho' nicely put.

Don conveniently left out the health figures in his list of "why one shouldn't practice homosexuality?."

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:29 PM

Sorry x posted Don....what the fuck has your "Scottish ancestry" got to do with homosexuality?
You're not indulging in insinuations I hope... ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:30 PM

Irrelevant, Ake. The question is whether sexual orientation is a predisposition or a matter of free choice. Health statistics is another issue. And it can be easily alleviated by encouraging homosexuals to form stable, monogamous relationships, which you and Michael are on record as opposing. So your talk of health hazards rings very hollow.

Don Firth

P. S. And PLEASE don't try to peddle that "spontaneous generation" twaddle again. Pasteur refuted that 160 years ago.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:32 PM

Heterosexual spouses/significant-others in the US are 20 times more apt to be murdered or maimed by their spouse/significant-others or in-laws than gay couples, Ake...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:39 PM

"Spontanious Generation"?....shurly shome mishtake?
I have never used the term or even know what you are referring to.

You have a very bad habit of misquoting or even lying about what other people have said.
If you can support your words by printing a post where I have promoted "spontanious generation"....whatever it is, I shall apologise.

if you cannot, i will expect you to do likewise.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:45 PM

Bob...Given the "atmosphere" dans chez Ake this evening, I fear your figures may be accurate.....:0(

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 08:12 PM

Shoot first, Ake, and then claim self defense...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 08:38 PM

LOL :0) Thanks Bob.....nuthin like a good laugh to clear the air!

Off to bed.....on my own! G' night all.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:35 PM

RESPECTFULLY!!:
Sorry Don, but you posted: "..Sorry Ake and Michael, but those are the facts..."

and these are your facts????...

Don: "..The ASSUMPTION is that it is genetic, because it has all of the characteristics of a genetic trait, but the specific gene or genes have not yet been isolated."

Where you DID go right was, (in your post)..

Don: "..There is one school of thought that maintains that geneticists have been looking in the wrong place, and that the mother carries the gene(s) and this effects the timing of the release of hormones when the individual is in utero,..."

Then you went awry with ...."and this determines the gender orientation of said individual."

Maybe the 'gender'..but you posted, 'orientation'...you either cut and pasted this and inserted 'orientation' or somebody's 'study' was very 'pre-biased'...you know, funded by someone to 'find' 'predetermined results'

Where you are pretty close, and as I've posted before, is that an expectant mother's 'disposition'(and that includes several things, which if you want, I'd be happy to go into(later) sets up RECEPTORS, in the nervous system, of the fetus. THAT determines the disposition of the child, and IS WHY some people say 'they were born that way'...they also don't have the knowledge to separate where or why those 'feelings' are coming to such said individual.
There was a pretty good film which goes into 'receptors' for the layman, that is pretty easy to understand..you may find it interesting. It's called 'What The Bleep Do We Know?'.

The receptors become 'geared' to receiving 'gratification' by certain emotional nerve impulses...much like a 'crack-baby', that is born already addicted...but the difference is, the crack baby is addicted to a artificial substance, as opposed to a sense of NEEDING gratification from an emotional need.
THIS IS NO FAULT OF THE CHILD...REPEAT: THIS IS NO FAULT OF THE CHILD!
....however, only .2% of babies who later claim being born homosexual from birth have that situation. The rest just jumped on the bandwagon. ..then the politicos expanded that claim...and that's where you and I have a difference. (besides the fact that you say you couldn't understand the words to "My Lady").
I'll continue later, I gotta go....

Regards Don,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:45 PM

Finally...

An issue that so far GfinS ain't disagreein' over???

Ya'll have at it as long as at the end of the day gay folks have every right as anyone else... Hey, if they wanta get married??? Have at it...

Ain't my bag but...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:17 AM

Ake, apparently your knowledge of biology is limited. You didn't use the term "spontaneous generation," but your endeavors in the earlier thread on this subject to create the impression that homosexual activity creates the HIV/AIDs virus is an example of that, even if you didn't know what to call it. Louis Pasteur conducted a number of experiments in the mid-1800s that established that the long-standing belief that certain "unsanitary" conditions or practices create vermin and disease by themselves simply is not true. The actual disease agent must be there to begin with.

Homosexual activity can transmit the virus the same way that heterosexual activity can. But neither activity creates the virus.

####

Michael, your reading skills are obviously remiss. I did not cut-and-paste any of that post, and I used the word "orientation" correctly. Gender orientation, not the actual physical gender of the child. You are simply not understand what I wrote. I did, however, get the information from several articles by geneticists and psychologists. Not just one article. Several.

You may not like the conclusions that authorities in the field reach, but you can't just change them or make them go away by sprinkling them with your particular brand of pixie dust.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:21 AM

Bobert: "Hey, if they wanta get married??? Have at it...
Ain't my bag but..."

Hey, I can't resist this one:....Your 'significant other'...Makes me wonder why you call her(?) 'P-Vine'!!...grins

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 04:15 AM

Don...What I did say about this issue is, that the massive rates of hiv/aids amongst the homosexual community, are as yet unexplained....there could be several answers.....extreme promiscuity which has been recorded.....the act of anal sex....the ingestion of toxic matter...I have never suggested that homosexuality "causes" the disease, no one knows what or who causes the disease, but one thing is plain, Homosexuals are massively worse affected by the disease
than heterosexuals and in the US/UK by far the worst affected sexual group.

I await your apology.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 08:48 AM

That was funny, GfinS, but as I said, ain't my bag so...

...the P-Vine is very much a women... And hot as a $3 pistol...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 11:16 AM

Are you 'bragging or complaining' that you are left with the smoking gun?
You dawg, you!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 12:56 PM

Great article in today's Washington Post by a couple of guys who for years have been neutral observers of Washington politics...

The writers: Thomas E. Mann & Norman J Ornstein...

The article: "Lets just say it: The Republicans are the problem"...

Maybe someone with better computer skill can do a blue clicky...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 01:02 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lets-just-say-it-the-republicans-are-the-problem/2012/04/27/gIQAxCVUlT_story.html

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 01:05 PM

Sorry, Bobert. I guess Mr Post doesn't like hot-links. However, Google

"Lets just say it: The Republicans are the problem"

as is and you'll be taken to the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 01:11 PM

From the article: "The GOP has become an insurgent outlier in American politics. It is ideologically extreme; scornful of compromise; unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition."

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 01:20 PM

All true, and obvious to anyone with a pretention to sentience.

However, it won't change the opinion, world view, or belief system of any of the ignorant, largely brain-dead TeaPublican jackasses currently infesting the U.S. body politic.

The boobocracy will not be swayed by mere fact.

Truth is irrelevant.

Resistance is futile.

You will be assimilated.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 03:54 PM

Not bloody likely, Ake. You have gone on record in previous threads as being unalterably opposed to same-sex civil unions or marriages. Legally recognizing unions between same-sex oriented couples rather than discouraging or forbidding them would be a strong incentive for stable, monogamous relationships. This would be a long step toward reducing promiscuity, which IS the primary cause of the spread of HIV. So don't try to tell me that you are sincerely concerned for these folks, or about the spread of HIV, if you continue to hold this position!

We DO know where the disease came from. It was transmitted to humans from African apes, possibly from bites or possibly from ingestion. This came as a result of the illegal "bush meat" trade.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 07:22 PM

Thanks, brucie...

The part about the article that I most enjoyed was Mann & Ornstein's argument that I have been making for several years now that the "both sides" crap is nothing but Republican PR trying to give them cover for some very messed up policy positions and equally messed up public behavior...

I hope the Mudville-Both-Sides-Duo of GfinS and her sidekick LH will take the time to read this article... LH might... GfinS??? No way...

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 07:33 PM

I take it that's a refusal then?
Well I'm sorry Don but you must be consigned to room 101 along with the likes of John P and the late lamented Lox

Rather harsh i will admit, but you will get used to their lies, denials and excuses.
In time it will feel just like one little happy family.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 07:48 PM

I don't know what scenario you're talking about, Ake, but if it makes you feel comfortable about being downright medieval, well, so be it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 09:06 PM

I was just headin' out fer a drink this aft, had just left the office...and there was this goddam huge CRASH!!! I hit the floor! I figgered someone had thrown a bomb or somethin'. I seen dust comin' out under the door, but all was silent.

I opened the door a crack. Looked in. What a mess. There was a big hole in the roof and a pile of wreckage on the floor in front of the desk. In that pile of wreckage was a man. He was not in good shape.

"Where the hell did you come from?" I asked. He waved a hand feebly, pointing up to the hole in the roof. "P-parachute failed..." he gasped.

"Are you a Democrat?" I inquired. He nodded weakly.

"Ah..." I said. "Bailin' out on Obamacare, were ya?"

He nodded even more weakly, and passed out. I called 911. They came in after about 5 minutes and took him off in an ambulance.

I am gonna bill Obama for the damage to my roof.

Now, just think...if that poor sucker was born in Canada, Cuba or Western Europe, they would patch him up at no charge through their public health coverage. I sure hope he has a lotta coin, cos if he don't, he might as well just jump again. This is the USA, right? The land of the "free", but they sure don't mean health coverage. Pay up or DIE, sucker!!!

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 09:12 PM

Yeah, Chongo, but who's gonna fix the hole in your roof?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 09:15 PM

Another thought, Chongo. We're just trying to ape ('scuse the expression) other, more civilized countries.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 09:26 PM

Yup, Chongz...

Former Democratic Congressman, Alan Grayson, stood up and said the Republican health care plan was to "Die"... That pissed the Repubs off so they spent $100B to defeat him... Doesn't change the fact that Grayson was right...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 11:03 PM

Another adventure with a health insurance company.

So in the mid-1970s, I'm working as an announcer for a classical music radio station. While a long cut on an LP record was playing and I had a few minutes, I got up to go to the bathroom. As I headed for the door of the control room, the rubber tip of one of my crutches slipped like the floor was greased and I landed with a resounding crash. I discovered later that the booby-trap was a small rectangle of cellophane from the top of a pack of cigarettes that someone had just dropped on the floor. But—I really buggered my knee!

This being on a Sunday, I went to the doctor the following day. The knee had swelled up and it hurt like hell! The doctor drained about 20 ccs of fluid off the knee, serum mixed with blood, prescribed some pain pills, and told me to stay off the knee as much as I could. In a few days it eased off, but I knew for several weeks afterward that I'd whanged it pretty good.

I got the bill from the doctor. I thought my insurance would cover it, but the doctor said they told him that they didn't cover things like that. At the same time, I got a notice from my health insurance company saying the same thing.

So I asked Bob McDonald, the program director and my direct boss, if the station had insurance that covered things like on-the-job accidents like that. Bob said (in his big, full, bass voice that sounds like the Voice of God) that yes, they did. But, he said, do this:

"Go to their office. They have a whole buiding complex in the north end of Seattle, and the reception room is quite big. And," he said, "it's usually crowded with people waiting to see someone about their policy. When you go to the desk and show them the letter you received and they verify that they don't cover accidents like yours, raise hell! Loudly! Make sure everybody in the reception room hears you. You'll get results.

"They always pull this kind of crap," said Bob. "Don't let them get away with it. But be sure you make a big scene in their reception room."

So I did. When the clerk confirmed that the company didn't cover accidents like I'd had with my knee, I put on my full volume bull-horn radio announcer's voice and said, "Well, if this company doesn't pay for this kind of accident, then what in the hell am I paying premiums for!??" Everybody in the reception room looked up from their magazines and indicated a great deal of interest.

The clerk turned three shades of pale, tried to shush me, and quickly called someone on the phone. She asked me to wait. Someone would be right there. In about thirty seconds, another woman came out and escorted me into one of the little conference cubby-holes down the hall. Once we got seated, she opened up a folder and said, "We're awfully sorry about the mix-up, Mr. Firth. The letter you and your doctor receive was a clerical error. Of course we cover accidents like that. We'll take care of it right away. And we're terribly sorry!"

So—next time I was at the station, I told Bob what had happened. He said, "Good for you! Bastards! They try that kind of stuff just to see if you'll buy it. If so, they're off the hook. But if you don't accept it and yell your head off, they fold up like a cheap lawn chair!"

What we need is good single payer health care like civilized countries and put those chiseling sons of bitches out of business!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 11:16 PM

Yep, he was right about that, all right. Like I said. Pay up or DIE! That is the American plan for health care.

Don, I told ya...I'm gonna send a bill to Obama for the roof. If that don't work, I'll send a bill to Romney. If that don't work, I'll use the damage for a photo-op to get public sympathy for the APP. That is bound to work. And then I'll put in a skylight...

Hmm. Maybe not the skylight. I got enemies that might take advantage of havin' a visible avenue of attack from above on me.

Nope. Definitely not a skylight.

Anyways, don't worry guys. When I get elected, the USA will finally get a single payer plan like they already have in most civilized countries these days. I will see to that. It can easily be funded, cos Canada has such a plan and health care already costs way less taxes per capita in Canada than it does in the USA, so it obviously can be done. Somebody is skimmin' off those funds in the USA. Someone is makin' billions off sick people. I am gonna find out who. And they will be arrested and put to work bustin' rocks.

That's exactly what we need to do...ape the other countries that are way ahead of us in this. That means a single payer plan, like in Canada or France...the lands where people are considerable freer than the so-called "brave and free" here in the USA.

I will also end all them stupid wars overseas by bringin' the troops home, shuttin' down outfits like Blackwater, closin' our bases in other countries, puttin' money into civil infrastructure HERE, not more weapons THERE...and when you see how much money THAT reduces the national debt by, yer head will spin.

Also, them Islamic radicals won't have no reason to bother us no more after that. They been botherin' us so far for one simple reason: because we been interferin' in their societies ever since the end of WWII, and takin' them over for their oil. Why the hell wouldn't they hate us when we do things like that to them? Anyone else would. You kick a dog long enough, one day that dog is gonna bite back!

What we do then in the USA is call the dog a "terrorist". This is hypocrisy. It wouldn't fool no monkey and it don't fool this ape either. The dog had a damn good reason to be mad!

Then there's the Federal Reserve. I am gonna take away their power to print fiat money (money that ain't backed by ANYTHING real). I am gonna give the government back the direct control of printin' the money, and it's gonna be backed by somethin' real...such as gold, silver, platinum. No more federal reserve notes. Uh-uh. They are worthless. Remember silver certificates? I do. We useta have silver certificates. They were worth their denomination in real silver. A federal reserve note is like a piece of monopoly money. It ain't worth more than the paper it was printed on. The only reason it's been workin' so far is this: everyone pretends them notes are worth somethin'. The day most people lose confidence and stop pretendin'...you can use the damn things to stuff a mattress, cos no one will give you anything for them.

It'll be like Germany in the 1920s when that happens. And don't think it can't. Every pyramid scheme finally collapses in on itself, almost everyone who played loses when it does, and that's what we got here...a giant international pyramid scheme created with fiat money (mostly in the form of debt), money that ain't worth a damn thing, cos it ain't backed up by anything real. It's a paper game. It keeps workin' as long as the people keep playin'. When they stop playin', it collapses.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 09:12 AM

This, Don, is the exact reason why every senior (or senior i the making) should be scared to death (maybe literally) of the Paul Ryan/Mitt Romney idea to privatize Medicare...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 11:52 AM

Privatizin' medicare is good for only one small group of people...the medical and health insurance industry. That is...a few rich people. Rich people fund yer election campaigns. They can also afford to pay for their own health insurance...no problem.

So guess why yer politicians are doin' things their way? Because that's where the big money is fer them and their best buddies. Just like the old days back in Tammany Hall, only it's a national situation now, not just in one big city.

LH is scared to death of yer privatized Medicare system. That's why he don't live down here in the "land of the free".

Me, I live in Chicago. I just figger I'll be one of the lucky ones and not get sick. (I smoke and drink regular to keep my immune system real strong.) I expect to die suddenly on the street of lead poisonin' one day, if ya get what I mean. Fast. Not layin' sick in bed for a long time with bills I can't pay.

LH don't expect to go suddenly (although you can never tell), so that's why he is stayin' in Canada, where it won't bankrupt him if he gets sick.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 02:04 PM

Chongo and his 'Lady-Chimp' went to the doctors to see if 'Miss Chimpy' could get some cosmetic surgery...he added a tail!

BTW, with the limits on 'medical care' being so low under this scheme...scam..ooops,, I mean 'plan' would you know if it included elective surgeries?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 04:34 AM

Yer gonna be in big trouble if I see you around Chicago, GfS. I don't go around puttin' tails on no chimps, and you won't either if ya know what's good for you.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 08:28 AM

Plus, you can buy perfectly nice clip on monkey tails for less than the cost of a box of bananas for those invites where tails are expected...

Nice thing about the clip on is that it comes with a braid option so when yer out riding on yer Harley ya clip it on the back of yer German helmet and you'll really look like a tough guy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 10:31 AM

BTW, Paul Krugman was on CBS this morning making sense... Too bad that Obama doesn't fire Ben Bernanke and let Krugman run the show... Krugman has more sense in his finger nail clippings that Bernanke has in his entire body...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 04:09 PM

Chongo (with date) in tails.

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 04:11 PM

Bobert: "BTW, Paul Krugman was on CBS this morning making sense... Too bad that Obama doesn't fire Ben Bernanke and let Krugman run the show... Krugman has more sense in his finger nail clippings that Bernanke has in his entire body..."

Perhaps you are right on this one, partially..so, let's rephrase...

Bobert: ""BTW, Paul Krugman was on CBS this morning making sense... Too bad that Obama doesn't fire Ben Bernanke!"

Fair enough?....Oh, and BTW(again), Note the LAST 'joke'.....(7:35) and note the re-action. It was brilliant! .Ever heard that before?????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 07:34 PM

Danged!!!

Get Ripley on the phone 'n stop the presses...

There may be one thing on the planet, other than music, where GfinS may agree???

Say it ain't so... And if it is so, would that make me insane, as well???

Good f'n grief...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 11:26 PM

Well HOT Damn!...the rest is just what side of the 'news' presented to you that you fill your head with!!..It's all from the SAME people's script!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 May 12 - 11:54 AM

Well, anyway...as I've said before..YES we need health care..but this bill is what we get INSTEAD..no wonder Democrats are jumping ship. The people are starting to find out what's in it...BESIDES health care(?)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 12 - 12:17 PM

Just a little aside here...yeah, that's Chongo for sure in that photo. He really goes for tall women.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 12 - 12:59 PM

The problem is that people aren't exactly jumping ship... This is just more right wing PR pablum...

As for the Affordable Care Act... If it goes down then the health care crisis in the US will never ever get fixed and the US will go down with it...

Ya have to start somewhere and this is a start...

The provision that isn't getting any press but is the reason why the health insurance companies have secretly (and not so secretly) funneled a billion $$$ into the Tea Party thru FreedomWorks and other Dick Armey organization is...

...the Affordable Care Act, once all parts have kicked in, will ***require*** health insurance companies operating in the pool to ***************pay out 85%**************** of the premiums for...

...friggin' HEALTH CARE!!!

***********************HORRORS!!!**********************

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 May 12 - 04:48 PM

Ahh, such optimism....you forgot the fucked up parts about it, and only spouted the Democratic propaganda.
Jeez Bobert, take off the blinders.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 May 12 - 05:19 PM

Okay, let's have it:   what do you consider the "fucked up" parts about it?

It's a no-brainer to say something is "fucked-up" if you don't bother specifying what you think is wrong.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 12 - 08:36 PM

Ted Kennedy said, " Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good"

Please elaborate, GfinS, the parts of the law that offend you that you think outweigh the benefits...

No rightie blue clickies... Your words, por favor...

Me thinks that GfinS is going to pull a disappearing act now...

Poof!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:52 PM

What's wrong with poofs?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:58 PM

GfS, I posed a question to you in one of my posts above which you still haven't answered. It's toward the end of the post.

Here, let me help you.   CLICKY.

Do you HAVE any answer, or do you just want to bitch and complain?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 12 - 08:06 AM

I believe we have purdy much asked the same question, Don???

The problem with the Fox ditto-heads is that while Fox has certainly programed their followers to parrot "repeal Obamacare" Fox has *** NOT*** programed them with any alternatives so...

...the ditto-heads have nothin' to parrot...

But if they were to think - I know, what's "think" mean - they would be happy to have a Republican plan in place for now and not a "European socialist" (lol) single payer plan...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 May 12 - 08:22 PM

Bobert the Terminal Democrat: "The problem with the Fox ditto-heads is that while Fox has certainly programed their followers to parrot "repeal Obamacare" Fox has *** NOT*** programed them with any alternatives so..."

It's NOT up before the Supreme Court because of Fox ditto-heads. Where the 'left' comes up with this lame shit is beyond absurdity.

Given the choice of 'free'(?) 'health care, decided by and administered by bureaucrats, and freedom....I'll go for the freedom..you obviously don't feel that way...that's up to you...but when the federal government successfully secures our borders, and deals with the economy, maybe just a little better, and get's the fuck out of everybody's business, well, maybe we'd even consider them capable of taking on anything more personal....judging for all the attorneys adds, for drug recalls...umm...I don't think the got to much o' grip on the FDA, either!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 12 - 08:33 PM

Freedom???

When we allow for-profit health insurance companies to set our national health care policy we are in serious trouble...

Freedom to be told "no" in 20 different languages... Freedom to have coverage denied... Freedom to have you insurance company to drop you because you get sick... Freedom to have your insurance company not cover stuff saying (without proof) that it was a pre-existing condition... Free to have Republican kangaroo courts side with the the insurance companies... Free to just flippin' die...

No thanks to your brand of freedom, GfinS... It's the Somalia Health Care Policy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 02 May 12 - 11:47 PM

No, Dummy! Freedom to pick who we want, when we want, and freedom to keep the government out of our shit!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 12 - 08:41 AM

That's not a rebuttal, GfinS... That is 100% USDA Choice Cop Out...

Don and I have asked you specific questions as to what your alternative is and all we get back is nonsense like the post above... This is the real world... The country has real problems that need real attention... Those problems will not and can not fix themselves...

So, again I will ask you: What is your alternative to the Affordable Care Act???

Try ***thinking*** this time...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 12 - 08:45 AM

Affordable Care does not limit your choice...except the choice to *not* have insurance, go to the emergency room, and have those of us who *do* have insurance pay for *your* healthcare.

Is that the "choice" you are defending?

Really?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 12 - 09:42 AM

Good point, GUEST...

BTW, 50,000,000 uninsured still get/consume health care... They just don't pay for most of it... Who does???

Yup, you and I in higher costs...

Maybe GfinS is one of those free-loaders who dines "freedom" as free to run up bills and make other folks pay 'um???

I donno???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 03 May 12 - 10:23 AM

Oops. Sorry. Me above.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 12 - 10:29 AM

Sounded like you above...

Mistype on my last post "dines" = "thinks"... ???... Typing with one hand can be tricky...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 12 - 10:51 AM

Bobert: "Maybe GfinS is one of those free-loaders who dines "freedom" as free to run up bills and make other folks pay 'um???"

No, that's a 'liberal'.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 12 - 11:18 AM

Still no answer/s from the resident wacko...

Normal...

So what's your ***real*** plan, GfinS??? Freedom isn't a plan... Hey, if you just want the insurance companies to set our national health care policy then just come out and say it... At least that would be honest... Short sighted 'n dumb... But honest...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 12 - 11:49 AM

I spoke too hastily....
Bobert: "Maybe GfinS is one of those free-loaders who dines "freedom" as free to run up bills and make other folks pay 'um???"

Oh, that is also a 'bankster' who Obama is all too eager to bail out, with our money!

California had a pretty good state funded medical program...till it was overrun with illegal aliens. I posted about this before...the Mexicans, yes, the illegally resident Mexicans, would go to the emergency room of several hospitals, for ANYTHING..including 'pain pills' for free. Several hospitals had to shut down those services. I was physically there, on business, when the emergency room was so packed with freeloaders, that a man died, from a heart attack, from the doctors who couldn't get to him, because they were so swamped. Everybody thought somebody else was attending him.

OK, plan.....First, before ANYTHING should be implemented, by finding, the loopholes with doctors and insurance, or govt. aid should be shut down..in other words, corruption, over billing and unneeded 'tests'. Insurance AND govt. paperwork ADDS 1/3 the cost, right at the get-go.
Billing could be set at what a person could pay, very easily. Nobody should be FORCED to buy anything, as a govt mandate. Waste and fraud is rampant, in the system; I think we could all agree on that...plus the over burden of the influx of illegals flooding the system...

Hey, I gotta go, people waiting..I'll be happy to continue this later...
..but I can say, if the federal government was doing ANYTHING near their job, and Constitutional obligation, California's health program would be going great!
Gotta go...be back, later...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 May 12 - 12:14 PM

Under the Affordable Health Care Act:

54 million people are now receiving preventive care
2.5 million young people are now still on their parents' insurance plan
Prescription costs have gone down for seniors
50,000 people now have coverage that didn't have it before

Not sure where I heard those stats.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 12 - 12:59 PM

It's pretty obvious, actually. GfinS's answer (despite the fact that he is too cute and coy to state it himself) can be found spelled out in detail by reading Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand.

Clear as a bell!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 12 - 01:52 PM

Who is going to shut down all these loopholes, corruption and billing for unesserary testing, GfinS???

The tooth fairy???

Get real here... You say you want the government to stay outta your shit then you advocate, as a first step, a plan that can not be implemented by anyone but the government...


Or are just going to ask the crooks to "Please, play nice"...

Guess again, GfinS...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 12 - 03:25 PM

BTW, every time something really messed up happens it's the government haters who are out there screaming "This should never have happened!!! Someone should have done something to prevent it!!!"

Exactly who is this "some one"???

Back Pine Grove Holler Louis was about as eat up Tea Partyin, Obama hatin', anti-government a woman as there is... She was also Mr. Clifford's daughter... When Mr. Clifford suffered his stroke and had to go into long term care, Louis was fir to be tied that Medicare only covered the 1st 90 days before Mr. Clifford would have to start spending his savings (Louis's inheritance, btw) and she was good and steamed that the mean government wouldn't chip in and pay for Mr. Clifford's care until he ran out of savings??? Yup, a real government haters pissed of because she couldn't get more of it???

And she's not an exception... I ran into this all the time as a social worker...

The hypocrisy and ignorance of the right wing is unbelievable... This isn't about differences of opinion here... It is just crazy tin foil stories and a complete lack of knowledge about real world facts...

Beam me up, Scotty...

B;~(

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 12 - 08:52 PM

Hey, I'm putting together a pretty comprehensive answer, so just hold on.
As far as corruption, I don't think the Democrats or Republicans, or any other thievin' group, such as those, would be willing to cut off their 'under the table incomes'...I surely wouldn't want those pieces of shit handling the nation's 'health care'...but then, it was NEVER about 'health' or 'care'.

You just don't see it...you still believe in the 'news media's' portrayal of our government structure, and who's greasin' who.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 03 May 12 - 09:02 PM

Just tell us your plan, GfinS, sans the "Both Sides Boogie"... Just your plan...

BTW, I'm gonna have to leave this to TIA, Don, et al... Ol' hillbilly is off to Ashville, NC, for the annual convention of the American Azalea Society... Three days of garden tours and grooving with the same people we groove with once a year... But, hey, lotta cheap (and rare) plants available...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 12 - 11:18 PM

We "...believe in the 'news media's' portrayal of our government...."

Since when, GfinS? That's a rash and inaccurate assumption on your part.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 May 12 - 11:50 PM

Don: "Since when, GfinS? That's a rash and inaccurate assumption on your part."

Since your 'rap' has always been predictable, and inline with the latest notions are being reported(read:'programmed') by the 'favored' disinformation outlets...and you seem to have a hard time 'undoing' certain mindsets, even in the face of true information. You're sorta got a 'programmed trigger response' to discount things you don't want to believe....
That's why.
Hey....Respectfully,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 May 12 - 12:29 AM

I, for one, will hold my breath awaiting the "comprehensive response".
I have heard that one before.
Memory of an elephant and all that.
In particular I remember a promise of some eye-opening revelations on the prop 9 thread.
Eyes closed to this day.

Oh well.

Have a great azalea trip Boberz. I (literally) grew up in a bigass patch of native mountain laurel on South Mountain. Good stuff.


PS
Somebody needs to Google the "Dunning-Kruger Effect"

PPS
Keeriest, why do I get sucked into this ridiculosity!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 May 12 - 12:37 AM

I wish you'd get back to music again. . . GfS is so much more gracious in that part of the conversation.

Just an observation.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 12 - 12:45 AM

Music is the only thing he knows anything about. All the rest is random noise.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 12 - 06:42 AM

Yes, I'm sure that if GfinS has a plan that it's going to be the same plan that Richard Nixon had in '68 to end the Vietnam War... So "secret" that he didn't know it... Gotta go!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 12 - 09:34 AM

Srs, YES, music!..truly a uniting force, where politics, based on nonsense, and capitalizing on people's biases, seems to ignite more dug in nonsense, even further.
I can tell, from some of the posts already, that 'the crew' already has wonderfully 'open minds' waiting to be fed...so they can 'compare' the input to their indoctrinations!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 12 - 03:58 PM

Speaking of "indoctrinations. . . .

I receive several "newsletters" in my e-mail every morning. These newsletters reflect a number of different viewpoints and political positions—so I'm not quite like one of these people who gets all of their "news" and their political position from Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and/or one particular newsletter or web site.

Read. Compare. Think. Accept nothing without question and examination.

One of the extreme conservative newsletters I get each morning (I like to keep up with what these folks are saying and just how far they will go—which is mind-boggling sometimes!) is Bob Livinston's "Personal Liberty Alerts," which contains daily attacks on liberals in general and President Obama in particular. Most of them are in an area that can only be called "vicious and hate-filled." Downright irrational, which can lead one to believe that the main thing that Livingston finds unacceptable about Obama, other than his being more or less liberal, is that Obama is not acceptably pale enough. Without saying as much, of course. But the vitriol he piles on is reminiscent of the kind of hatred one would expect from a closet KKK member.

Some of the stuff that GfinS comes off with about "loony liberals" and President Obama sounds like it came from Livingston's "Personal Liberty Alerts." THIS may be one of the "reliable sources" he speaks about, while accusing the rest of us of passively allowing the "liberal media" to "brainwash" us.

The fact that he won't answer a reasonable, direct question ("What is your solution to the problem? Who would you recommend we all vote for? And don't say Kucinich, who is not even running!") and feels he has to personally attack those who don't agree with him is that he has no solution, he just wants to bitch. This, along with political naiveté and a sad combination of narcissism and low self-esteem.

If he wants to be thought of as a thinker, he has to think. Not just envy and try to insult those who actually do.

Don Firth

P. S. Stick to music. You seem to have the hang of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 12 - 07:21 PM

Shhhhhhhhh, ya'll...

I'm 'sposed to be down in the big room with 450 other folks watching boring slides and listening to a boring old guy... But I snuck out.. Hey, they want $5.50 for a friggin' beer... Domestic??? Sticking it to folks just like GfinS's buddies, the health insurance crooks... No way... Got me a 12 pack of Natural Lite on the way and got it stuck in the frig in my room and and nice glass just like they are serving the beer in so...

Never mind...

Here's the real deal... Now GfinS says she/he/whatever ain't gonna give us her/his/whatever's plan because we are going to jump on the plan...

Well, bring it on GfinS... You don't mind jumpin' on us so you should have the balls (or whatevers) to put your plan out there... BTW, does anyone remember that very early in the deal Obama met with the Republican caucus and asked them what they wanted to see in the plan???

The Repubs didn't offer squat... Nada... Zip... Nuthin'...

Just like GfinS now... Nada... Zip... Nuthin'...

They don't have a plan... Not one single plan other than this plan: do nothin' and criticise anyone who does something...

That's their plan... That's GfinS's plan... Period...

Well, I better get back to the conference room 'cause one of by buddies is going to give a dynomite presentation in a few minutes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 12 - 09:40 PM

Don Firth: "Some of the stuff that GfinS comes off with about "loony liberals" and President Obama sounds like it came from Livingston's "Personal Liberty Alerts." THIS may be one of the "reliable sources" he speaks about, while accusing the rest of us of passively allowing the "liberal media" to "brainwash" us."

Never heard of him...Sorry, Try again.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 12 - 09:45 PM

Well, if not that, then something along that line.

I take it that you refuse to share this great source of truth so that no one else will ever be as smart and well-informed as you are.

Or do you just make that stuff up?

Don Firth

P. S. Still no straight answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 May 12 - 10:48 PM

Take a 'red'...I'm putting it together. Jeez!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 May 12 - 11:38 PM

Holding my breath.....

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 12 - 01:04 AM

Don't need a "red." Unlike some, apparently.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 05 May 12 - 12:37 PM

Boy, this is even better than roller derby. ;-) And it's on 24 hours a day too, every day. At no charge. What amazes me is...you people here are willing to do it for FREE! What a deal. For me, I mean. For the watcher, see? I keep hopin' no one here will "win"...or at least imagine that they did...cos that would bring it to an end. And then what would I do on my whisky and cigar breaks?

So...let's see...where are we here? What dazzlin' revelations have poured forth from heated brows?

TIA is holdin' his breath. Will he keel over soon from lack of air? Let's hope not. GfS is advisin' Don to "take a red". Don says he don't need one, but says GfS might. This seems unlikely since GfS is castin' Don as the one who needs one, but it's all a matter of opinion, right?

Why watch the news or the prizefights when ya can watch the political threads on Mudcat? I don't get why the whole nation is not tunin' in here daily...and why Obama don't tune in here himself so he can find out what's really goin' on in the world from the people who KNOW.

Ook! Ook!   ;-D

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 12 - 02:14 PM

I'm just asking a simple question, Chongo. Maybe GfinS is too simple to have an answer.

Just Checkin'.

Don Firth

P. S. Yuh know, Chongo, I know a Hindu holy man you might like to meet. He's known as Swami Havabanana.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 May 12 - 05:50 PM

How is the air way up there on high?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 12 - 07:01 PM

I've heard that, at an altitude of 16,000 feet, half the earth's atmosphere is below you. The Himalayas, upon the peaks of which it is traditional to sit in the lotus position and meditate and be above it all, one is considerably above 16,000 feet. The air gets pretty thin up there and the brain can become starved for oxygen, which may account for some of the weird perceptions and ideas that can occur. I think the Native Americans of the Southwest use peyote to get similar effects. Never touch mind-altering drugs myself.

Besides, sitting there in the lotus position for long periods of time can really bugger your knees. . . .

Don Firth

P. S. The world is still waiting for the Great Revelation.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 May 12 - 09:11 PM

Don Firth: "P. S. The world is still waiting for the Great Revelation."

Well, speaking of which, (and related to your 'P.S.'....I'm finding out some REALLY INTERESTING stuff. I'm getting close...being as I am actually reading it..and the one BEFORE it, that got turned down, for reasons only bigots would object to. BTW, I'm doing this VERY objectively, and having it reviewed by some VERY knowledgeable people, just to make sure. I think you're going to be in for some eye openers, some you may agree with...some you may not..in any event, I'll post my summation in not TOO long a time. There were two, and supplements,(huge)...but what the hell, I'd do it for my friends.......

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 May 12 - 10:00 PM

Looking forward to it, Michael.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 05 May 12 - 10:41 PM

I'd been tryin' to hook up with Swami Havabanana for years, Don, cos I thought I could get free fruit along with a little "Darshan" (look it up). Well, imagine my surprise when it turns out ya gotta pay $90 just to get in the door! 90 bucks is a lotta bananas. I told them bald-headed devotees that was mannin' the till and givin' out little I.D. cards for them that paid just what I thought of that shyster swami! Yup, it was quite a scene. They couldn't wait to get me outta there. They finally GAVE me a buncha free bananas just so I would go away. ;-D That is how ya win the game of self-realization in Chicago, cos the squeaky wheel gets the grease, don't it?

How is the air up here, TIA? Well...it could be better. This is only a 3-floor walkup, y'know, and it's not in what I would call the best part of town. There is a lotta pollution here from cars and stuff. And real bad noise pollution too. Yessir. And then there's all the cigars I smoke. Tell you the truth, the air in here leaves a lot to be desired.

But, hell, I never asked for a rose garden, did I? I ain't complainin'.

Now get back to work and start attackin' each other's political views, hurlin' insults, and makin' witty remarks at each other's expense. Don't hold back. It's a slow night here, and I need entertainment.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 May 12 - 01:26 AM

Bobert,

Based on this post of yours, "Ya have to start somewhere and this is a start...
The provision that isn't getting any press but is the reason why the health insurance companies have secretly (and not so secretly) funneled a billion $$$ into the Tea Party thru FreedomWorks and other Dick Armey organization is...
...the Affordable Care Act, once all parts have kicked in, will ***require*** health insurance companies operating in the pool to ***************pay out 85%**************** of the premiums for..."

I take it, and from another post, of yours, I think, you said that, as it progresses, it gets the kinks worked out..or something like that.
Would you elaborate on what you believe it would/could improve to...or what you'd like it to cover.

We are comparing some stuff, and the 'big glitch' is coming to light. Has NOTHING to do with the parties....but why they scaled back provisions on the first one(which is the one they really wanted)...to the one up now....and now the 'loopholes' to accomplish just that...from the second.

OK, the other part of your quote,..."funneled a billion $$$ into the Tea Party thru FreedomWorks and other Dick Armey organization is..."

Nope, that ain't it...it's bigger.

Respectfully and Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 12 - 07:17 AM

Just have a few minutes before we board the bus for another day of garden tours but if I have it correctly the GfinS/Teapublican plan is just as I said: no plan other than criticizing other folks plan...

Reminds me of the 4 corners offense that college basketball teams used to employ if they were ahead 29-27 at the half... They would get the tip off and then play keep away for the entire 2nd half, take no shots and the final score would be 29-27... That's why college basketball now has a shot clock...

We need a shot clock here... GfinS is trying to run out the clock with pestering and subterfuge but, like Nixon's "secret plan" in '68 for ending thr Viet Nam war, that plan is so secret that GinS doesn't even know it???

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 06 May 12 - 03:15 PM

I love it! The straw men just keep gettin' advanced by certain of the arguers here...ever intent on provin' that the OTHER guy loves the Tea Party or is a closet racist or some other such hilarious and speculative notion. Yup, just keep tellin' yerselves that the OTHER guy is a fervent supporter of whatever crazy, evil, extreme political nightmare is hauntin' your own anxiety closet, hidin' under yer bed, and terrorizin' you, and you'll keep each other busy fightin' over absolutely nothin' forever, and I will continue gettin' my daily laughs watchin' you blast away madly at yer favorite straw men that you just erected instead of realizin' that you got WAY more in common with yer supposed "evil opponents" (on this forum) than you thought you did. They ain't crazy and they ain't evil. You ain't either. Not one of you here is a supporter of the Tea Party. Not one. But just keep pretendin' that the other guy is, and you'll never have to go to the trouble of actually understandin' what he has to say. You'll never have to face that fact that he, like you, is a good person, not crazy, and not backin' crazy propositions.

And yer frantic demands for the other guy to advance "a plan" are just a buncha hot air. You want him to say something in the way of a plan not so you can come to any accord, but so you can immediately attack it and pick it apart and show how smart you are and how dumb he is. The real truth is, YOU ain't got a plan either. NO ONE here has "the plan" you ask him for. Oh...you got a few scattered notions of things that could be done here and there...and that won't be...but you sure as hell got nothin' that could be called a comprehensive plan that would straighten out the whole political/financial/social mess in America. No one here has such a plan large enough to cover this situation, not one of you, and if you think you do, you're dreamin'.

Obama doesn't either. Nor Romney. Not one of 'em really has such a plan. They're almost surely lost in the complexities, probably pretty much as the rest of us are.

What you got is not a plan but a lotta hot air, a buildup of yer anger and frustration over a lotta things you can't control, a smatterin' of knowledge and isolated facts and opinions mixed with a truckload of yer past mental habits and likes and dislikes, and some grandiose moral pretensions and a sense of yer innate superiority over anyone you regard as a political opponent of yers in any way. That does not equate to "a plan". It amounts to a political attitude based mostly on past prejudice, but it does not amount to a plan.

Don't go lookin' for other people to satisfy all yer desires for "a solution" when you can't even satisfy 'em yerselves. And don't expect 'em to have all the pat answers that would provide "a solution" when you don't have 'em yerself.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 12 - 04:06 PM

That's funny, Chongo! But to be expected, I guess.

You're talking like a monkey.

(Jayzuz! Talk about erecting straw men! That's exactly what YOU are doing. Or the guy who has his hand up your butt and is doing your talking for you, sort of like Dick Cheney was doing with Dubya.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 12 - 01:54 AM

Still reading. (Takes a while, but we're gettin' it!~)

Hey Bobert, what were you thinking they might improve it with?
The first one, and second one have some 'differences'....implementing the first one would have been bloody...but they changed some of the stuff that they may have wanted to have, but it makes me wonder about why they put that in, unless it was their goal, and were just being sneaky..however, there is some stuff that NOBODY reported, in the first one, and would have never flown.

So Bobert, what improvements were you thinking of?....and don't get into one of your Democrat/Republican rants....just what were you hoping to find?..or what improvements were you looking for, in ANY area?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Bobert
Date: 07 May 12 - 07:54 AM

This is still on you, GfinS... Your plan, por favor...

Didn't think you had one other than freedom??? That ain't a plan... Might of fact it has nothing to do with anything here... Jus' more hot air & subterfuge...

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 12 - 11:30 AM

Stop dodging the question, Bobert. You made a statement, that things were going to get 'improved'....this is relevant, because of the two bills...so I ask again:
Hey Bobert, what were you thinking they might improve it with?
The first one, and second one have some 'differences'....implementing the first one would have been bloody...but they changed some of the stuff that they may have wanted to have, but it makes me wonder about why they put that in, unless it was their goal, and were just being sneaky..however, there is some stuff that NOBODY reported, in the first one, and would have never flown.

So Bobert, what improvements were you thinking of?....and don't get into one of your Democrat/Republican rants....just what were you hoping to find?..or what improvements were you looking for, in ANY area?

GfS "

P.S.
....unless. of course YOU don't know what you're talking about...just 'somebody' will fix it....
Still reading and going over it...(shit, between all the bills and 'supplements' there's over five fucking thousand pages..but I'm getting it read....more than your fantastic Democrat 'Representatives did, before they passed it...or your Democratic bosses....or even you, so lighten up....just tell me what you're looking for in the bill, to improve.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 07 May 12 - 03:11 PM

Everybody here erects a few straw men whenever they talk politics, Don. But they don't know they're doin' it. They just can't help it. They leap to hasty conclusions about what they think the other person is thinkin'....conclusions that are actually quite unfair to the other person and depict him as a doofus/fool/racist/dummy/fanatic/fundamentalist/whatever/etc. And that keeps the hostile wheels here spinnin' endlessly.

The moment you start talkin' to someone else, you start imaginin' that you know what he's thinkin'. 2/3 of the time, yer probably wrong, but you don't realize it. And that's the source of the straw men you erect. And the other guy is probably doin' the same thing to YOU at the same time! (if he's like most humans)

But...............

As it says in the Bible, "Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone".

Any takers? ;-D I guess not, huh? I am sayin' that we ALL suffer from blindspots that we ain't aware of, Don, and that it obfuscates our understandin' of other people. You got a problem with that? Or are you the one person here who is totally free of the many imperfections and misconceptions that afflict the rest of humanity and boggle our communications? And if so, how come you ain't in charge of the Cosmos? ;-D And why ain't all the beasts of Creation bownin' down at yer feet and praisin' yer unblemished perfection?

Now, who's got "the plan" that'll fix our entire political system? Huh? Who, I ask! Don? Bobert? LH? GfS? Who's got that magic plan? ;-D None of us, that's who. Just admit it and show a little humility fer once, fer Chrissake. And after that...stop pesterin' other people to give you "their plan", cos they're the same as you...they don't know what the hell to do about the entire political situation all around us, and they're just little people tryin' their best to manage their own lives on a day by day basis. Show a little friggin' respect a change. Nobody here is obliged to give you the answer to everything, cos no one has got it.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 12 - 05:18 PM

Dearest Chongo, who writes: "Or are you the one person here who is totally free of the many imperfections and misconceptions that afflict the rest of humanity and boggle our communications?

I have a confession to make....I used to be conceited.......but now I'm just perfect!

Well written, Congo's secretary.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 12 - 07:10 PM

When in the corner try making it about the guy asking the questions...

That's Mickey Mouse, GfinS...

Just give us your ******promised***** plane and after you have done that then you may ask me anything you want and I will answer eac h and every one of them but as long as you are just playing games it is apparent to even Helen Keller from her grave that you were and continue to bluff...

I'm calling you on your bluff... Admit that you are plan-less and we can move on...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 12 - 08:59 PM

BTW, Chongz... I just got around to reading yer little monkey stuff it reminds me why you are a monkey here and no one else is...

Bunch of LH bullshit... You need to escape from him and get a real life...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 12 - 09:38 PM

Lighten up, Bobert...jeez....you always this uptight?

As far as my question about what you meant, and how you saw it 'evolving', I merely asked, because the first bill was more than likely what the wanted..but after it was sent back, for 'reconciliation' (modified), I was noting the changes, and was curious if those were changes 'up' for you, or a disappointing change. Apparently you have no opinion either way....(they didn't tell you yet, what to think?)...nothing worse than a robot with no programming....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 12 - 09:52 PM

Wrong as per usual, GfinS...

I am the most laid back ol' hippie that you'd ever meet... Ask anyone who goes to the Getaway... They'll tell you...

Jus' want you to know that watchin' you twist in the wind trying to divert attention off your plan onto me for whatever you think I've done or not done is very entertainin'... Didn't want this little subterfuge to go unappreciated but, as much as it pains me??? Yer are real pip, Alice!!!

Now, rather than try to turn the attention on me for asking what your plan is would it be too much to ask you to reveal the plan that you promised to reveal???

Are you having fun yet???

Laidback B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 12 - 10:15 PM

BTW, LH/Chongz...

Here's the real deal... You have health care... We don't...

Don't get your worshippin' collective heads too far up GfinS's posterior here thinking that mean ol' Boberdz is ganging up, or what ever you think...

GfinS said she/he had a better plan... Obama bent over backwards trying to engage the Republicans in the early days... Spent a week in meetings with them and it has come down to the Repubs just saying "Fuck you, Obama... We want your ass out and we ain't givin' you shit.. Nothing... Got it???"

That's the story here... Of course other than the US having 50,000,000 uninsured people getting crappy health care in American ER's and sticking me with the bill...

Don't get to excited to back GfinS on this one, LH... It's making you look like an insensitive, aristocratic Ayn Rand-er...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 May 12 - 10:31 PM

Bobert: "GfinS said she/he had a better plan..."

I did????
I just said I didn't like this bill.....and I'm NOT diverting attention...I'm waiting to actually finish reading the bill, that you wholeheartedly support....and never read, or know what's in it, for sure.
I only asked you what you meant in your post...and talk about 'twisting in the wind'....doesn't your neck of the woods have tornadoes?
I'm just not going to comment, until I've finished it.....(what a novel idea!)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 08:04 AM

You said you had another plan and said you were going to post it...

Period...

Still waiting...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 10:27 AM

******************************Postscript***************************

Seems every time the righties huff and puff about this or that and get called on the details and policy positions they end up at the end of the same dead end road...

Same here as elsewhere...

When cornered they always attack Obama or the messenger with mindless insults and emotive blather...

*********************************************************************

Ya'll ought to stick to music because there is no substance in parroting Koch/FOX noise... Just noise... And dangerous policy positions...

Square business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 08 May 12 - 12:07 PM

Yer erectin' straw men so fast, Bobert, that I couldn't shoot 'em all down even with a tommy gun! ;-D

Why assume all these dire things about the people yer talkin' to? Why assume they like the Republicans? (They DON'T!) Why assume they worship the Tea Party? They don't! Why call 'em "righties" and "Ayn Randers"? Seems like an unlikely prescription to me. Just becoz someone else is debatin' with you about some issue doesn't mean they have to believe in EVERYTHING that you are totally against, y'know.

By the way, GfS is definitely a "he", not a "she", I know this for a fact, so put that one to bed, okay? One less thing for you to worry about. You can thank me by sendin' a check or some bananas.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 08 May 12 - 01:02 PM

Didja notice? I just got post # 222! Hoo-Hah!

Now, let's suppose, Bobertz...that GfS does give you his plan. In detail. And you read it. And you point out, of course, all the stuff that's wrong with it. ;-D

What then?

Or are we just lookin' for braggin' rights here?

Or is it that we are addicted to talkin' and don't know how to stop?

What else could we be doin' instead?

With that in mind, I think I'll go and have lunch somewhere.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 01:04 PM

Thanks, Chongz, for layin' the gender thing to rest...

As for straw men??? GfinS has been an Obama hater going way the heck back and that has never changed... He has never once said one thing decent about Obama or any of his policies... That, IMHO, fits exactly with the Tea/FOX narrative... When GfinS is called on it he runs to "both sides" safe ground while your buddy, LH, provides cover...

This time, Chongz, I figured that seeing as GfinS offered the non-Obama-haters a glimpse of what the Obama-haters thought would be a reasonable step towards solving america's health care, yes, crisis... We've had two years of weeping and hand-wringing by the Tea Party, the entire Republican Party, sans Olympia Snow, who has quit saying that the party is wacked out, FOX news and the the wacko right... These are not straw men, Chongz...

Now here's something that maybe even your primate-lite self may understand... It goes "if it looks like a duck quacks like a duck, then it's a duck"...

GfinS has been quacking for going back long enough to be called on it...

There is such thing as reasonable debate when folks are willing to duscuss real world issues, policies, ideas... Seems other that than playing the Both Sides Shuffle or insulting people there ain't much in GfinS quiver...

Ain't about straw men... It's about real world facts, knowledge and ideas...

Like I have asked... You don't like the Affordable Care Act then give us your alternatives... Doing nothing, other than expecting people to accept person responsibility in a country where management has rigged the deck so that 1/2 of Americans now live at 125% of poverty or less is very much the world that would make Ayn Rand very happy...

If folks don't like being labeled as Tea Partiers and Ayn Randers then maybe, just maybe, they should quit parroting Tea/Rand BS... There's a thought...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 12 - 01:19 PM

Chongo's gone out to lunch, Bobert. And I gotta do the same. I'll get back to you at some point, probably.

Just a quick thought, though. I think GfS detests both the Republicans and the Democrats (the parties, I mean). He's certainly made that pretty clear for a long time. He's not for either of them. I don't think he's on "the other side" of the political divide from you...I think he's outside of it altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 12 - 03:44 PM

"Stop dodging the question, Bobert."

GfinS has claimed to be many things on these threads, but his one outstanding talent he has never mentioned.

He's a world-class acrobat!

I have never seen a more talented one.

You have to repeatedly ask him the same question over and over and when he finally realizes that he's on the spot and that you're not going to let it go, he does a marvelous back-flip and demands that YOU answer the question and implies that HE was the one who asked it in the first place!!

I think he must be trying to fool late-comers to the thread. Because he can hardly fool anyone who's actually been following it with that kind of ploy.

You really should take this on the road, Michael!

Don Firth

P. S. And to Chongo the monkey and the human he invented, their attempts to pump up their own egos by doing the "a pox on both your houses" schtick and "it's hopeless, so best just lay down and let them walk on you" (the counsel of cowardice) add nothing to the discussion, so it's best to just regard them the same way you would regard static on the radio. Annoying, but meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 04:45 PM

I like the "static" analogy, Don... I was thinkin' gnat myself but, hey...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 12 - 04:46 PM

Don and Bobert, don't you have ANYTHING better to do, 'than fear and loathing'??

If you REALLY want to do something with your time, you should read this thing....but, you won't, you'll expect someone to read it to you.

...and Bobert, when you said the music was 'Delicious', I took it you saw the video, in which case you would have known my gender, with a picture of my mug on it....Did you have someone listen to it for you?
..even got a pic of the spouse, and a grandchild playing with a butterfly, at the concert.....

Methinks you guys are a bit nervous.....join the rest of the country!
...I mean Bush fucked up running up the deficit by 4 trillion in 8 years, and he was fucked up for doing so...Obama promised change...he ran up 5 trillion in 3 years, and can't account for one trillion...but somehow, you guys bought into the political rhetoric, and have become ever increasingly stupid excuse makers..afraid of learning anything but the dictates of what 'the party' tells you...and I'M FUCKED UP?????????????????????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 12 - 05:01 PM

You accuse US of "fear and loathing" when you are the one who has frequently indicated your OWN fear and loathing of Barack Obama and the "loony liberals."

Now he's doing somersaults!!

Don't expect any kind of plan or solution from this source. GfinS has got NUTHIN'!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 06:02 PM

No, GfinS, by the time i made the "delicious" critique of your music I understood I was well aware of your gender... Don't get all warped over the critique... There is music that I consider delicious... I mentioned that I was a closet Windham Hill appreciator but I also love other "delicious" music such as Grey Eye Glancing, Enya, Declan Masterson, etc... All delicious music...

The blues??? Different story... Ain't no delicious blues songs... None!!! But I like the blues more than I like delicious music...

As for the fear and loathing assertion... Very pathetic... I neither fear or loathe you... Musically, I respect you... Politically, I feel sorry for you... You don't seem to want to learn anything new and you parrot right wing bumper sticker policy positions...

Do you have any idea what the $5T in new deficits is about??? Maybe if you were better read you'd understand that 100% of these deficits were back end boobie traps in Bush's budgets... Economists predicted them down to 5% going back to 2006... Jesus as President and Oral Roberts as VP couldn't have changed them...

See, I mean when you are trying to have a logical discussion with someone who, frankly, hasn't kept up over the years then what you get is exactly waht we get from you, GfinS: right winged Republican propaganda...

Do your homework...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 May 12 - 06:20 PM

I think forcing citizens to buy a product is unconstitutional, but if it's going to be done, then don't let the Bush/Obama people force us to do business with Hartford Insurance and the other big companies. That's fascism. Just extend Medicaire to include all Americans. The system's already in place. And no, that's not what Obamacare "basically does." His plan is fascistic collusion with the big insurance providers.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: saulgoldie
Date: 08 May 12 - 06:44 PM

So you're sitting ina pub. Guy nextya is the alcoholic equivalent of "one toke over the line." He starts babbling annoyingly. Now, if you *ignore him* long enough, he either just falls over, or he goes away out of boredom to annoy someone else. If he pokes you, you call the cops. And so it is with trolls.

Unless, of course you like to wind em up and watch em run around. Long's you don't forget that they are there for your amusement, and that they are not to be taken seriously.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 06:57 PM

Yes, Somgwronger!!!

Medicare for all...

I agree...

What we got with the Affordable Care Act is all we wer4e going to get... That is reality...

Medicare for all will be inplace in America by 2025... There is no alternative...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 12 - 07:47 PM

MY GAWD! SONGWRONGER AND I AGREE ON SOMETHING!!

Just extend MediCare.

####

I know this is a silly thing to ask, but GfinS, have you ever met a real, live politician? Have you ever worked on a political compaign? Have you ever even got up off your butt and voted? You, too, Little Hawk (realizing that you're in Canada, of course—in your case, Canadian elections).

I didn't think so.

You claim all politicians are crooks, right? Bought and paid for by special interests, right?

Well, I DO know a few politicians—personally. One is my Congressman, Jim McDermott. I don't know him well, but I've talked with him on a number of occasions, and even though he probably doesn't remember my name, I'm sure he remembers me. People around here like him. He's been re-elected several times and the last time he was re-elected, he got some 80% of the vote. He's stuck his neck out many times. Among other things, he blew the whistle on an illegal deal that Newt Gingrich and one of his cohorts were hatching up and released the story to the press--after the Senate Ethics Committee refused to do anything about it--because he felt the voters should know what their elected officials are up to. He got into deep do-do over that. But—the voters re-elected him.

Another is a member of the Washington State Legislature. He's young, and he'll probably be around for a long time. Sharp as a tack and he "knows where his towel is." One of those "loony liberals." He backs some issues that are very unpopular with the Powers That Be and he doesn't back down when things get sticky. He's a neighbor, and he and I go to the same church.

Some years ago I worked in the same office with the wife of the, then, King County Executive. I met him first at the office Christmas party, and saw him and talked with him a fair number of times after that. Among many other things, he backed a number of controversial environmental issues that prevented real estate developers from bulldozing the vast forested area east of Lake Washington and Lake Sammamish and turning it into a South San Francisco style desert of "little boxes" style houses (see song by Malvina Reynolds). In 2009, Barack Obama appointed him to be Deputy Secretary of Housing and Urban Development.

These three and a number of others.

I worked on Washington State's so-called "bottle bill" that required grocery stores and other outlets to take glass and plastic bottles back and turn them over to a recycling company. It also mandated that something similar be done to the great fluttering flood of cheap plastic bags that clutter the landfills and are NOT biodegradable. We won that.

I also worked on the "Don't Bankrupt Washington" campaign that succeeded in putting a leash on the Washington Public Power Supply System, or WPPSS (aptly referred to as WOOPS!!), that wanted to build nuclear power plants all over the state, DESPITE the fact that the sites of a number of projected plants lie along the coastline of Southwest Washington—and geologists have pointed out that just offshore is a major earthquake fault. There is a subduction zone just like the one off the coast of northern Japan that did a number on the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant that Japan is going to have to contend with for centuries to come. These geologists inform us that this fault produces a major earthquake, complete with tsunamis, about every three hundred years. And the last on was about three hundred years ago.

In addition to the probability of a major earthquake in the foreseeable future, and what it would do to a string of nuclear power plants along the coastline, the project would have all but financially backrupted the state. There are OTHER sources of CLEAN ENERGY available that would cost the state far less.

We won that one, too!

So GfinS, Little Hawk (Chongo), and anyone else possessed of similar misconceptions, don't try to tell me that it can't be done, so we may as well just give up!!

That's the way of the kind of lazy coward who simply can't be bothered.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 12 - 08:01 PM

Let me ask you this:

WITHOUT LOOKING THEM UP, can you name your two state Senators? What Congressional district do you live in? Can you name the Congressional Representative from your district.

That's WITHOUT looking them up, now!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 08:46 PM

Well, Don, having just moved to NC i'd have to admit that I didn't know all these folks but I'm learning about them and...

...voted responsibly today...

Wrote in GfinS fir dog catcher... That was a joke...

But you are entirely correct, Don...

These "both siders" are no better than "birthers"... It's all hog wash to protect them from having to roll up their sleeves, knock on doors and try to bring about the kinda world they would like to have... I've beat my knuckles down to knubs since my first campaign for Kennedy in 1960 (when I was way to young to vote)... I've knocked on thousands of doors...

But, Don, I would guess that you are entirely correct with LH and GfinS... The Both Sides Shuffle is alot easier than standing for something...

..."And then they came for me"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 12 - 09:18 PM

Yeah, Bobert, despite the fact that they don't seem very appreciative, it looks like it's up to you and me to save their sorry asses for them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 May 12 - 09:21 PM

Oh, I'm not in favor of extending Medicaire to all. I just said that it's already set up. Using it for universal health care would make more sense than letting the Big 5 insurance companies start a system from scratch, which is what Obama wants to do, no matter how he dresses it up. He's a fascist. He wants to force you to buy an insurance policy from an insurance conglomerate.

Obama is marketed as a progressive, the successor to JFK, LBJ and FDR. But he has shut down JFK's manned space flight program, he's in the process of killing LBJ's medicaire program, and he's got his sights set on FDR's social security program. He's a stone cold fascist, privatizing and shipping everything he can overseas. His "save" of General Motors has Cadillac producing cars in China next year.

Let the scales fall from your eyes, people. How do you know when Obama's lying? His lips are moving.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 12 - 09:28 PM

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 09:33 PM

Well, so much for wronger being right... ahhhh, correct... Absolutely delusional... I mean, institutional delusional...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 12 - 09:39 PM

You two 'forgot'(?) to address my comment, but then went on a semi-literate tirade bashing me....so address this AGAIN:

GfS: Methinks you guys are a bit nervous.....join the rest of the country!
...I mean Bush fucked up running up the deficit by 4 trillion in 8 years, and he was fucked up for doing so...Obama promised change...he ran up 5 trillion in 3 years, and can't account for one trillion...but somehow, you guys bought into the political rhetoric, and have become ever increasingly stupid excuse makers..afraid of learning anything but the dictates of what 'the party' tells you...and I'M FUCKED UP?????????????????????"

GfS

P.S....and I'm STILL reading this stuff.....YOU should put in the effort.....that is IF you REALLY gave a damn!!..Instead, you'd rather call names....glad the Democrats have such mature people behind them!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 12 - 09:55 PM

Where are you finding all these allegations against Obama, GfinS? Name your source.

And GfinS, you kept talking about this great plan you're putting together, and when we kept asking "Where is it?" you tell us to be patient (advising me to "take a red"), that you're working on it.

Then you accuse us of not responding to your "Great Plan."

I didn't see any "Great Plan."

Could it be that you neglected an intermediate step? Like posting the "Great Plan" that you keep accusing us of not responding to?

Or could it be that the dog ate your homework?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 09:57 PM

Yo, dog...

I don't buy into the news de jour... It is usually 100% wrong and revisionist...

I have been a news junkie going back to the 60s... I read more stuff in any given week on politics and policies in a week than most people will read in their lives...

In 2006 economists predicted the exact deficits that we are seeing today... It was written up in the Washington Post and New York Times...

Why these papers ain't stepping up and reporting those stories is between those papers and their advertisers... Both papers are loosing money... They are doing what they have to to to survive...

But those of us who aren't spinners-come-lately who have a grasp of the last 50 years know what is what...

George Bush built into his budgets $7T in additional defecits that were going to hit the next guy... Obama is that next guy... This, as distasteful to righties, is fact!!!

Do you disagree with this, GfinS??? You could do a little research and discover this all for yourself... But you won't... Easier to take drink the Tea... They, after all, know everything...

Wrong... They are morons who don't don't squat about squat...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 12 - 10:04 PM

As an African-American friend of mine commented, "This isn't the first time that a black man has had to clean up a white man's mess!"

Obama inherited this deficit from Bush, GfinS. Where have you been for that last dozen or so years?

By the way, I'm signing off for the evening. Things to do.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 12 - 10:47 PM

If there ain't some IQ from the LH/GfinS duo then I'm not all that far behind you, Don...

There is a limit to how much classless-and-free-both-sides one can take before it becomes evident that they have nothing to say because they have noting to say...

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 May 12 - 11:06 PM

All this dancing around the issue and NEVER addressing it! Where's the fucking trillion dollars??...and why are you so eager to entrust your healthcare and private information to some, either irresponsible people?...or dishonest?

...and then get so uptight, because someone is actually READING this bill, instead of parroting its wonders....ACCORDING TO THEM, who wanted NO ONE to read it, before 'passing' it?????

Now, stick to the issue.......if you can!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 12 - 11:32 PM

Still waiting for the "eye openers" promised on the prop. 8 thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 May 12 - 12:48 AM

State your sources for this information, GfinS, so that we may read it for ourselves. I know that you are biased. I'm just wondering how biased your sources are.

Don Firth

P. S. And why, GfinS, does it have to be a "fucking trillion dollars?" Agitated emotional state combine with a limited vocabulary?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 May 12 - 01:04 AM

Is this the first you've heard about it??????
Holy smokes!
Do your own homework!
I can't believe such 'astutely' mouthy political watchers have not heard about this!

GfS

P.S. ..and I don't believe I 'offered' a better plan...that was Bobert's assertion....but I think I could come up with one...but you won't like it. You guys are just typical bitchers...who just buy into any political nonsense YOUR particular party comes up with...no matter how corrupt, misleading, freedom grabbing....as long as they can buy you off with ...yet...another bullshit promise of an entitlement...and that's the plain and simple truth....
..besides, I'm not finished this thing.....then I think...how can I conduct an intelligent dialogue about this, when I'm trying to talk to people, who, out front, don't know diddlysquat about the bill...only its free!..its free!! Oh Goody-goody, Somebody else is going to pay for it...It's my 'civil right'!!

Says who?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 12 - 01:35 AM

Wow! I am amazed by how many posts you chaps have put in since I was last here. Incredible effort on the part of all of you. If you were hamsters, the exercise wheel would be completely worn out.

Anyway, nice going. It's too late now, and I'm too tired, but I will tune in again tomorrow and have fun reading it all.

See you again soon. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 May 12 - 01:43 AM

"Do your own homework!"

Yeah, that's the cop-out I expected.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 12 - 08:49 AM

I believe the "homework" comment was aimed at me, Don, for suggesting that GfinS do homework on debunking the right wing propaganda that puts the increase of deficits on Obama... Reality is that these deficits were predicted going back to 2006...

Had Obama not been forced to extend the Bush tax cuts (remember that little hostage taking) then Obama would have actually reduced the anticipated deficits by $700B...

But, of course, the GfinSs and Tea Baggers of the world don't do reality because it's easier to just parrot bumper sticker BIG lIES...

And the beat goes on... And on... And on...

Huxley would be amazed to see that the Epsilons are close to running the entire show...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 May 12 - 09:40 AM

Don: "Yeah, that's the cop-out I expected."

Cop out to what????
If you go back and read the last part of this thread...if ANYBODY should read the last part of this thread..you guys are coming unglued, and working yourself up into senile frenzy...I'm just reading this thing..Bobert is 'determined' that I'm a right winger, and Don, you are really discrediting yourself, with your usual, and predictable irrational convulsions. What is it with you guys???....Go back and read it......you may even think about apologizing for embarrassing yourselves. Unbelievable!!
BTW, I'm NOT reading any commentary, right wing or left, just the texts of the bill, and the first bill, and the supplements to the bill. I have NOT commented on the bill, itself, but only asked for either one of you to clarify things you made in your posts, that, instead of an simple answer, you give us your spasmodic political seizures. Take a look....'read 'em and weep'.
No matter how many times, I, or someone else tells Bobert, that I'm NOT into either party's politics, WHICH I'M NOT, he insists that I am, over and over again....and over and over again, and over and over again.
Don, who occasionally shows some cognizance, then projects this venom, that he bit himself with.
Are you guys really right wing shills, trying to portray 'liberalism' as a severe mental disorder? ...'cuz you're doing quite a stand-up job
!
Trying to be respectful!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 12 - 10:14 AM

Im not determined that you are right wing, GfinS... I am just observing the arguments (and language) that you use and they seem to have one thing in common: Karl Rove's fingerprints...

Nor am I coming unglued... Heck, I'm married to the P-Vine... I'm tough - lol....

As for your assertion that you are not of one party or another??? That's between you and your conscience... For someone who constantly plays the "Both Sides Shuffle" (pick your own key) you certainly are very adept at parroting Republican propaganda, including it's centerpiece "both sides" BIG LIE...

An article was written just two weeks ago by respected political writers... one represented a the right leaning think tank and the other a left leaning and their conclusion is that the problem with our government is on the Republicans... I even posted it but I doubt you bothered to read it because it ain't in what ever key you are doing the "Both Sides Shuffle" in...

As for liberals and "mental disorders"??? That's exactly the kinda stuff that I read every night at the Washington Post discussions that have been posted by the most hateful of the ObamaHateBrigade... Attack the messenger...

Yes, I'm a liberal and there is nothing that I have posted here that suggests anything but educated liberal opinions/observations... Certainly nothing that suggests any mental disorder so might as well stuff that dog back in the cage 'cause he won't hunt...

But, hey, as per usual, GfinS... Your posts are entertaining...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 09 May 12 - 10:31 AM

Is there any chance at all that you all would talk about the issue at hand instead of each other?

Here is my assessment of the health care law:

* Deeply, ruinously flawed as soon as Medicare for all was scrapped. I'm a left-wing person who has never liked the current health care law for this reason.

* As usual, a bad compromise with the right wing in order to get SOMETHING done. We get some better behavior from insurance companies and they still get all our business, at whatever rates they want. Have you ever tried to negotiate with an insurance company on the details of the contract? Free market, my ass.

* Something the right wing gets to yell "Socialism!!" about, ignoring, as usual, the lack of logic of what they are saying.

* We have an economic system that evolved to give health care only to those who have jobs and then we allowed our biggest employers to ship most of the jobs to other countries. Since these big employers clearly do not have the best interests of the American people - or our economic system - at heart, we have to pass laws to force them to behave. It's too late already, of course, to do any real good on the job front, but at least we now get to keep our insurance if we change jobs.

* Anyone with a brain knows we will have single-payer health coverage within the next few years, since nothing else works at all. I just wish the right wing would get out of the way and let us get on with it. Do they really think they can hold back the clock indefinitely?

* There seem to be two definitions of the word "civilized" floating around. The American right wing defines it as their version of American society, which not even most Americans get to share in. The rest of the Western world defines the U.S. as uncivilized, partly because we don't take care of the health of our citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 12 - 12:02 PM

"Is there any chance at all that you all would talk about the issue at hand instead of each other?"

AMEN!

Good comments, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 May 12 - 12:38 PM

Little Hawk, beat me to the punch..John, that is truly one of your better posts!
Though I could beg to differ on a couple of points, I wasn't going to, till I finished this thing. It's a LOT of reading!!!!...and deciphering the 'legal-speak'...but it's getting done......

At this point, I wasn't even going to comment one way or another...in all fairness..and as NOT to get distracted!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 12 - 12:59 PM

John P,

First of all, just about everything you have stated I have also stated at one point or another...

Where we disagree is that I believe we needed something - anything - even if it isn't perfect to jump start our nation's ability to try to fix a problem...

The Affordable Care Act is a start and, sure, I have said over and over that we will one day join the current century with a single-payer system... I have even predicted that by 2025 it will be in place...

There are some little known provisions in the ACA that are good... One that gets no public attention but is the reason that the health care insurers have thrown $100Ms at the Tea Party is that they will have to pay out 85% of the premiums in actual health care folks brought into the program... The health care insurers hate, hate, hate this provision... Medicare operates with less than 2% administrative costs yet the insurance companies are sickened at making 15%??? Where the hell else can you get guaranteed 15% on your money??? They won't tell US just how bad they are sticking US now but its alot!!!

That one provision by itself will reduce costs... Here's another aspect... If you have insurance the provider and the insurer have set reimbursement rates for various procedures, right???

So if you have insurance then your insurance company pays $1000, for instance, for a endoscopy and everyone is happy... If you don't have insurance - or have a high deductible - the cost for the same procedure is $2700??? Under the ACA with everyone insured that endoscopy is going to be $1000 for everyone... Bottom line: reduced cost of health care...

Like I have said, the ACA ain't perfect but it's better than nothing and is a small step forward for a very backward thinking nation...

As for the bickering??? Yeah, I could do without it... I would much rather be talking ideas and policy then having to defend myself from being mentally ill or whatever for the crime of paying attention to stuff and reading long articles in Washington Post daily so I have knowledge of what is going down... In other words, being educated... I know, horrors!!! An elitist!!! An eastern pinhead liberal!!! LOL...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 May 12 - 03:15 PM

One last answer to GfinS, then back to the subject at hand.

I DO know quite a bit about the National Debt and the Budget Deficit (which many people assume are the same thing, but they are not). And I come up with figures that are considerably different from those you are claiming. And the way YOU are framing it, you make it sound like Obama himself embezzled at least a trillion dollars.

That's asinine! Right Wing newsletter stuff!

####

I agree with John P.'s frustration and that Medicare should just be expanded to cover everyone. This is the way many countries who have the best health care coverage—and the best health care—do it. But I also agree with Bobert in that the Affordable Care Act is a step in the right direction. But—

The idea that if one isn't in a situation where coverage is provided, they must BUY it themselves is a) unfair, and b) a sop to the health insurance companies.

The ACA has at least knocked a few bricks out of the Republican wall. We just have to keep banging away at it until it crumbles.

But if we let people like GfinS, and our resident Canadian kibitzer persuade us that the Powers That Be are TOO powerful, "the fix is in," and that there is nothing we can do, then we ARE screwed!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 12 - 03:52 PM

Yeah, Don... The National debt and budget deficits are one of the right's favorite things to push because their PR people fully understand that most people don't understand economics and so they feel they can throw as much twisted BIG LIES out there they want... Heck, if you have to educate people *and* debunk the lies it's all but impossible...

I mean, we can't even have an academic discussion about the debt and deficits here because lotta folks are so clueless about facts *and* basic economics that they will fall back to their default propagandized bumper sticker positions...

First of all, I will once again state that the current budget deficits were built into the future going back to 2006 and before... Economists predicted the current budget deficit *and* the national debt within 5%...

Second, let's do some basic economics... We'll call this "Bonehead" Econ 001 (remedial, non credit)...

Here's a single mom with three kids working living right at the poverty level of $22,400... Her expenses are $23,000 a year which allows for nothing but survival... She has borrowed a little here and and little there and currently is making minimum payments on the one credit card she has that has a $2000 credit limit... She has used up up her available credit...

What should she now do with her paycheck???

A. Pay off debt...

B. Use it to survive...

The correct answer that this woman - who, BTW, has never taken an economics course - is B...

Same woman receives a $2000 inheritance from here uncle's estate... Now what she she do???

A. Pay off her credit card debt...

B. Save it...

The correct answer is to pay off her credit card debt... Why??? Because all she has been doing is paying interest @ 20% APR+ and little principle and there is no where she can get that kind of return on savings... She might get 2%...

This is why expansionary austerity isn't working in Europe and why it won't work here... You pay debt when you have a surplus and you borrow when you don't... Purdy simple concepts... I mean, even a chimp could learn it... But...

...seems that the Tea/FOX people ain't half as smart as that woman trying to survive with 3 kids...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 May 12 - 04:11 PM

Well put, Bobert!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:41 PM

Don Firth: "And the way YOU are framing it, you make it sound like Obama himself embezzled at least a trillion dollars."

I never implied that. Your 'off the wall assumption' is idiotic....with all due respects.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 May 12 - 06:57 PM

Shouldn't you "beep" when you back up that abruptly?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 May 12 - 09:20 PM

Naw, I fart!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 May 12 - 11:13 PM

Here's a tip, GfinS:   Instead of asserting that my "assumption is incorrect," you have to resort to personal insults, like saying that my "assumption is idiotic."

That is the sort of mind-set that prevents you from qualifying as a civilized human being. And, for that matter, ever being taken seriously.

With all due respect,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 12 - 08:15 AM

In different times we wouldn't have to take people with fringe ideologies seriously, Don, but we are looking at one political party, the Republican party, which has become very intolerant of everyone else and is using vast sum$$$ of aging, angry white men's money to purge their party of anyone who doesn't goose-step to their fringe ideology...

There's an interesting op-ed in this morning's "Charlotte Observer" by Senator Richard Lugar saying pretty much what I have just stated...

The positions that GfinS's has made known here and the tactics that GfinS has employed against opponents is very much in line with the current Republican party... And seeing that we have a fringe that is well financed, regardless of the validity of their positions, puts us in a position where we have to take them seriously...

This is not unlike what Germany went thru in the 30s... Hitler wasn't taken seriously until it was too late...

The fact that the GfinS fringe does not have any particular use for facts, economic theory, history, science, etc. doesn't mean that we should take them lightly...

What we have here is a few very rich people leading Epsilon Nation into revolt against moderate, tolerant, and problem solving governance...

May be like splitting hairs here, Don, but I take GfinS and the gang he runs with very seriously...

B~

Maybe splitting hairs her

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 May 12 - 09:01 AM

You'd think history would have taught you something. The answers that we NEED, are NOT going to be found in promoting one political party over another...especially when both are owned and controlled, by the very multinational financial moguls at the top, who you claim you are against....and YES, that means YOUR party, too! Where do you think either party gets its bread?
If you want to be 'free', be 'independent' in your thinking. If you want to be DIFFERENT, be EXCELLENT!......not an excellent liar, in their behalf~!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 10 May 12 - 10:44 AM

Hmm, one party is in favor of gay civil rights and women's health rights. The other isn't. Repeated for the 100th time. Fuck off, Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 May 12 - 11:24 AM

You think????...I bet you think 'Obamacare' will pay for transgender operations and in vitro fertilization for homosexuals, too.
Your turn!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:43 PM

Quite possibly, once the kinks are ironed out.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 12 - 04:59 PM

There were plenty of folks who wanted to be "different" and "free" in Germany in the 30's... How'd that turn out for them...

Guess again, GfinS...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 May 12 - 05:02 PM

Bobert, I agree. What GfinS says that is of any substance should be taken seriously because he parrots the extreme Right Wing line. But his rude manner of expression and the fact that he dodges or ignores direct questions indicates that he doesn't really understand what he's talking about and tries to cover his lack of real knowledge by throwing insults, hence he, personally, shouldn't be taken seriously as anything beyond a parrot.

"Michael wanna a cracker?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 12 - 07:24 PM

This is what these folks do, Don... They don't give a rat's ass about common courtesy/manners...

"You lie!!!"

"Hell no, we won't!!!"

"Hang him!!!"

So throw common civility out the window...

But wait, there's more... Here's what else these people don't give a rat's ass about:

1. Facts

2. Science

3. History

4. Economics

5. The US Constitution

6. The law

7. Democracy

8. Civil rights

9. Humanity

10. The working class

11. Justice

12. The original FCC charter

13. Playing fair

14. etc, etc, etc....

They just think that with all those billion$$$ they can bring to bare on elections that they really don't have to give a rat's ass about anything they don't want to...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 May 12 - 07:45 PM

..and Don, what exactly is your version of the 'extreme right wing'?...ANYTHING outside your narrow minds???
I'm SO NOT right wing..I just don't buy into political rhetoric, as being much of the truth. You should know that, by now.
Actually, I come from a place of being a musician, tired of good people being sucked up by political bantering...with smugness...it's absolutely asinine!
Shit, I have to put up with the bullshit from both sides..and to THEMSELVES they make sense..what's so abnormal about that...

Hey, pretty close to concluding my reading...well comparatively speaking.
I'll give you my feedback...all I can say, at this time, is a LOT of avid supporters of this bill, may not be so warmed up to it...but that's for you to decide.
Me, I'll just approach it blank..and see what it all says, and means..and why not?

Anyway, have a happy day, you two...and John P, too.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 May 12 - 08:05 PM

I'm glad you're trying to educate yourself, Michael. But judging from what you have been saying so far, I do tend to worry about WHAT you are reading. Even though Ayn Rand called her philosophy "Objectivism," there is nothing objective about it. And much of the stuff on the internet is suspect unless you know who they REALLY are. And even then, put brain in gear when reading it.

And as far as YOU accusing US of being "narrow-minded" and "smug" and all the other low-class verbiage, DO give it a rest. It makes you sound like a brainless twit who has nothing to say BUT insults. In short, a troll.

Just a helpful hint about how to make your way amoung civilized human beings.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 May 12 - 09:14 PM

Don Firth: "And as far as YOU accusing US of being "narrow-minded" and "smug" and all the other low-class verbiage, DO give it a rest. It makes you sound like a brainless twit who has nothing to say BUT insults. In short, a troll.

Just a helpful hint about how to make your way amoung civilized human beings."

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 May 12 - 09:32 PM

Have it made into a sampler and hang it on your living room wall, then read it every day. First thing in the morning is best.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 12 - 10:27 PM

Don's right... Nothin' civilized about your politics or your behavior, GfinS...

In other words, a Tea-publican...

Ain't no straw man here...

You have shown your stripes... And while your music is pretty, your soul ain't...

Square business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 May 12 - 11:09 PM

Bobert: "Don's right... Nothin' civilized about your politics or your behavior, GfinS...
In other words, a Tea-publican..."

There you go, again.....ridiculousness!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 May 12 - 11:16 AM

So, in getting back TO the topic.....why ARE the Democrats bailing out of Obamacare?

Maybe one of our ardent resident Democrats, offer a 'plausible' explanation.....beside, 'The Republicans MADE me do it!'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 12 - 12:24 PM

Just keep reading 'kay?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 May 12 - 12:31 PM

'Kay....I just took a little breather, from finishing it.

In fairness, I noticed today, in our local paper, that the local hospital has received funds, from Obamacare....though it is really appreciated, I think it would be wiser, to wait till the Supreme Court gives it's decision, BEFORE, dispersing the funds. (Creates a conflict of interest)...and if it should be struck down, what about the funds?...in all fairness, you'd think they should be reimbursed.

'Kay, back to reading............

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 12 - 12:52 PM

Parts of the Affordable Care Act are already law and public policy...

BTW, the Supreme Court is not deciding the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act but the "Romney-style" mandate...

BTW Part B, I find it very interesting that The Paul Ryan plan for Medicare is not all that different in funding aspect of the Affordable Care Act...

BTW Part 3, we are still awaiting GfinS's alternative program... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Amos
Date: 11 May 12 - 02:02 PM

GFS:

Yopur inspired generalization l acks a few grains of truth.

I am a Democrat and I am not bailing out on health care policy. The law we have acheived, as the Vice President put it, is a big fuckin' deal. It serves as a beachhead for a more refined and even more viable system, not as a final and perfect model. Intelligent Democrats have seen and said this from the beginning.

These sweeping idiotic generalizations of yours are not truthful, IMHO and are more aimed ast fomentation of discord than dialogue.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 12 - 04:20 PM

"GfinS" and "discord" in the same sentence, Amos???

How can that be???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 May 12 - 05:44 PM

Although I have no love for Obama, because of him millions of people now have access to medical help/treatment and cheaper prescription drugs. THAT is important. I would not care much if 75% of the American Congress were taken for a one-way trip to the bottom of a river, but Americans voted for what they have--mostly over-hyped ball-less wonders with fancy hairdos and fat bank accounts, accounts that grow exponentially once they get to Washington--and because they did vote for the they bloody well deserve what they've got.

Obama has tried, despite the shit around him, he has tried. I certainly respect him for that. Not much more, but even if only for 'Obamacare', he's done more for poor people in the US than any other president in decades. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 12 - 06:10 PM

Yes, brucie... He has...

The opponents of the Affordable Care Act would must like 50,000,000 of their fellow citizens uninsured...

I can't see their logic... First of all, without insurance they don't get health care early and that means ***more expense*** when they are really sick... But here's the kicker??? These folks "consume" over $100B a year in health care that they can not pay for... Who pays??? The rest of us do in higher costs...

There is no logic, other than Obama hatred, for any of the arguements made by the anti-Affordable-Care-Act wackos... Not none logical argument... Just Tea/FOX noise and lots of it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 12 - 06:33 PM

Judging by some of the sexual scandals based in Washington, they can't all be ball-less, can they?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 May 12 - 12:30 AM

Hey Hey!!..The gangs all here!!...Been reading.....Songwronger actually hit on a serious topic, but to look into that, you'd have to change the dialogue, instead of doing this political posturing, and scrapping over minutia, shouldn't the economy, and what the hell this lame duck Senate is going to pass...and hand over to the Republicans, should they win?..Also, the derivative market, which should plunge AFTER or Around election time, and how these events will co-inside,..and NDAA, and national turmoil...Jeez, remember that ol' bumper sticker, "What if they had a war, and nobody came?"....and the two sides, including a lot of you, are busy handing out invitations, to the mascaraed party?? Willing to 'fear and loath' your fellow countrymen, and mascarading as petty issues, compared to the BIG one???
That's what parties do...especially when they are controlled by the same string pullers.

Oh well, back to reading...can't take time to debate the petty!

Regards..yak later,

gfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 May 12 - 01:56 AM

Been drinking, GfinS? You're incoherent, and your spelling is even worse than it usually is. I've worked as a technical writer and editor, and even I can't figure out what the hell you're trying to say.

I hope you're not planning on driving anywhere.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 May 12 - 04:14 AM

Naw, I don't hardly ever drink..I'm just tired. Thanks for the heads up.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 12 - 08:53 AM

Nothing was actually said, Don... But it was entertaining...

Something about the derivatives market crashing... Hmmmm??? After yesterday's news from Wall Street I wonder how the GfinS's of the world can argue that we need less regulations in the financial market???

Oh well???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 May 12 - 11:56 AM

Bobert, I suggest you get a little briefing in an area that you seem a little 'light' on. People are watching the stock market, the 'jobs report', the phony unemployment numbers, interest rates, etc etc to monitor how the economy is doing...all which have very little to do with it, these days. What will be the thing to watch for, is the derivatives and the derivative market...when THAT goes, THEN a mega collapse will happen. You may or may not fully understand this, but before you start running your 'anti this party or that group' rant, do a little looking into it. Get an understanding on derivatives, the phony, speculative, mythical money, that the banksters behind the scenes keep bullshitting people with; The collateral based on nothing except the prospect of more hot air.....you know, like politics. Not going to debate the merits or flaws of it, especially when you indicate that you need a little more education on it..so look it up. This is the 'engine of hope' that keeps the oppressors propped up, and the political machine deceiving people. Just check it out.
(I just did you a favor, by pointing to the money trail...and the 'hope for money' trail.
Maybe someone, without bias,(rolls eyes), can expound on it. I've got reading to do today.....anyway a series of events will lead to this, including the engineering of the 'big power play'.....and much blaming, along lines that really have little to do with it....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 12 May 12 - 12:42 PM

Yep, you're absolutely right, GfS.

While we're waiting for our opportunity to do something about it, which party should we vote for in the next election? The one that wants to hand even more money to the bankers, or the one that wants to let us keep some of it? The one that wants to medically rape women, or the one that thinks peoples' bodies should be their own? The one that denies civil rights to the minority-of-the-day, or the one that actually believes in freedom? The one who thinks employers should own the employees, or the one that thinks employees should have some rights? The one that wants to force us to act like a perverted idea of Christians, or the one that believes peoples' moral and ethical choices should be their own?

Huh? We're waiting for your answer . . . . What do we do about the bankers???? Tell us, please. What should we do at the next election?? We are awaiting your sage guidance.

Really, if you can't tell the difference between the current crops of Republicans and Democrats, you are being purposefully blind. And unethical to the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 12 - 01:20 PM

I fully understand economics, GfinS, and at one time was certified to teach it at the high school level...

John, however, is correct... We know exactly what the Republicans will do with the keys to the car... They have shown to have no real understanding of economics... Or facts...

Obama has had to dance with Wall Street to some extent in his 1st term... Political Reality 101... He won't in a 2nd term...

BTW, if the Republicans are so smart about economics then why do they support "expansionary austerity"??? It is failing in Europe and is failing here... You want to create jobs and get this country going then get $$$ into the economy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:16 PM

I've known about derivatives for a long time. Hope mixed with an underlying greed for profit based on NO products or service. Pure vapor. In fact PBS's Frontline has been running a series for the past week or so on vapor-based speculation and what it's doing to world economies. The banks and investment companies KNOW it's a complete scam, but greed is so contagious that even THEY can't resist.

This, of course, is one of the reasons the Right Wingers hate PBS so much. Their programs such as Frontline tend to tell you what's actually going on. And we can't have THAT!!

There oughta be laws to prevent this kind of pseudo-fraud. In fact, I think there are several, but everybody ignores them.

FDR's instituting of the Securities and Exchange Commission back in the Thirties was for the purpose of stuffing a cork into this kind of speculation, and it work! Until Ronnie Reagan, to the delight of the sharks in the financial swimming pool, castrated it. Reagan couldn't actually get it rescinded, so he appointed bankers and investment brokers to the commission.

Classic "putting the fox in charge of the chicken coop."

Hello 1929 all over again! Totally predictable!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:26 PM

Bobert: "We know exactly what the Republicans will do with the keys to the car..."

Exactly so, GfS. This is why I will be working for and voting for the Democrats in the coming election. I, frankly, don't have a helluva lot of faith in their brilliant management skills, but I'd rather have them blunder around and maybe knock over a light-pole or two than have the Republicans at the wheel, knowing that they will drive full speed over the edge of the cliff!

It stinks, I know, but other than emigrating to Alpha Centauri II and trying to start all over again, it's the best we've got.

So what's YOUR idea?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:50 PM

OK!..this is where we do agree on something..HOWEVER, there is erroneous thinking going on, that the banksters, and their 'fraudulent pyramid schemes' have only infiltrated the Republicans. This is utter nonsense!..The biggest hurdle to overcome is that BOTH parties can't see beyond their ideological differences, to recognize that they(we) have both been 'had'! Obama is no more 'in charge' than Romney, Palin, McCain,...well any of them!!..They are mere figurehead PR puppets...Even Geithner, is quoted, saying as much, when he was in Europe..saying HE was in charge..and why shouldn't he think that..being from the IMF?
So what we get, and argue about, and cause divisions amongst ourselves is the 'diversion and uproar' tactics..to keep people's eyes and attentions OFF the REAL story behind the 'politics'. None of ANY of this has anything to do with 'so-called civil rights'..but rather a 'restructuring after the Chinese model', (oh goody-goody?) that Rockefeller announced as the 'ideal model'!!!....well, I guess EVERYONE is 'equal' in a sweatshop....and it's NOT because they 'respect the differences'...either 'put out, what you're told to', or fuck off and die!!!....and that includes your 'health care'!!!!!
THIS is what we are being led to...and this is why the political game in this country should NOT be believed!!...other than the FACT that BOTH sides have a hard time justifying their 'inconsistencies'!!
Stop believing the 'made up to play on your emotions' bullshit!...and it's a HUGE list, of bullshit that, as decent people, who try to care, they got each side sincerely believing, that their side is right, and the other wrong!
Music market ready!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:19 PM

GfS, what you are not grasping is that we are not as ignorant as you seem to think we are, and apparently would even like us to be.

And you're ducking the question again:

What do you suggest we do? What's YOUR plan?

If you're trying to sell a course of action that you think people should follow, now's your chance!

So—WHAT?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:20 PM

By the way, I'll be gone for much of the rest of the afternoon, so you have plenty of time to answer.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:42 PM

I don't think that GfinS get's it, Don??? Seems that he knows just enough to be dangerous and nothing more...

Restoring Glass Steagall, a 1933 act that prevents your bank from gambling with your money, would be a great 1st step... I mean, with FDIC we taxpayers are on the hook if the bets don't pan out... There's a world of difference between your bank lending to people to buy homes and finance their businesses then taking that money and gambling with the Big Boys who can take you to the cleaners in a New York minute... Pun intended...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 May 12 - 07:27 PM

..and Bobert....under whose administration was that repealed???!!!???..and for WHOM???
Methinks YOU don't 'get it'!!!
I wish you would, because the two parties, both of them, are the pawns AND the victims!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 12 - 07:38 PM

Look at the make-up on Congress... Look at the politics... The history... What was going on in Clinton's life??? Clinton was a pragmatist... That means he knew when to take a butt whupping with a smile on his face...

One has to take in the entire story/events, GfinS... Bill Clinton, 2 years earlier, was sucked into the ill-thought-out welfare reform legislation...

Things don't happen in a vacuum, GfinS... Historians understand that...

Do your homework... Spend some time reading before you attempt back lecture me on history and politics.... Do your homework... Your right wing bloggers aren't telling you the truth if you think Glass Steagall was all on Clinton and Democrats...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 May 12 - 01:00 AM

Bobert: "Your right wing bloggers aren't telling you the truth if you think Glass Steagall was all on Clinton and Democrats..."


'Your right wing bloggers', you mean everyone who isn't blinded by your backwoods mentality?????

'..aren't telling you the truth if you think Glass Steagall was all on Clinton and Democrats...'..of course not, it was banksters working through through their puppets...this one just happened to be a Democrat,
or are YOU missing something here???...or can't come up with an excuse, to blame it on SOMEONE ELSE??????????????????????????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 May 12 - 01:14 AM

"Baclwoods mentality," Michael?

Is this kind of snottiness necessary? Bloody childish!!

So you DO get your "information" from Right Wing web sites!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:20 AM

Check this out, GfinS...

Who was the spark plug in Congress that pushed thru the Gramm-Leach-Bliley legislation that ended Glass-Stegall???

How much money did Citibank throw at Gramm-Leach-Bliley???

How many Senate Republicans against Gramm-Leach-Bliley???

How many Democrats voted against Gramm-Leach-Bliley???

Please, just answer these simple questions without the usual GfinS BS, por favor...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:36 AM

You haven't answered my question, first...besides, it's impolite to answer a question with a question....Who signed it?(We all know that one), WHY? and for WHO?

..and as to your question, you seem to be continually agreeing with me, and backing up my argument to you....but don't see any lights going on!..THEY ARE BOTH puppets for the elitist global bankers! ..GET IT YET????

Do, I know it may have sounded a little 'snotty', but hey, there is no cognizant logic going on at the other end. My contention is that BOTH the leadership of BOTH the parties are under the control of the crooked banksters, and elite.....and this guy is running for Pope of the Evangelical Church of the Democratic Heretics!...and thinks I'm on the 'right'!
Holy Shit!!....(literally)

..as for your REQUEST(I take it), to come up with an alternative health care plan...let me finish up reading this whole thing first...and give me more than an afternoon, to come up with one, OK?..I'm not a food stamp office!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 11:58 AM

Slick Willie signed it... Duh... That's the part I was talking about historians and political scientists being able to weigh in all the factors that were going on... That's something you refuse to accept, GfinS...

Now just answer my questions...

It shouldn't take you too much effort to find the answers as this is an open book quiz... You can take it while preparing your alternative health care plan which, BTW, I am looking forward to reading... With an open mind as long as it is formulated with the same...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:31 PM

Okay, that's it. This has gone far enough. You're all making yourselves sick, and I'm not going to let you do it any longer.

Stop arguing NOW!

If you don't, I'll kill this dog!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: pdq
Date: 13 May 12 - 12:47 PM

"...With the passage of the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies were allowed to consolidate. The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton.

A year before the law was passed, Citicorp, a commercial bank holding company, merged with the insurance company Travelers Group in 1998 to form the conglomerate Citigroup, a corporation combining banking, securities and insurance services under a house of brands that included Citibank, Smith Barney, Primerica, and Travelers. Because this merger was a violation of the Glass–Steagall Act and the Bank Holding Company Act of 1956, the Federal Reserve gave Citigroup a temporary waiver in September 1998. Less than a year later, GLB was passed to legalize these types of mergers on a permanent basis."

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:01 PM

See how easy it is, GfinS???

Now finish the quiz or yer buddy, LH, might get a nervous trigger finger and it will be on your hands...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 May 12 - 03:17 PM

Busy day. Just checking in to see if there has been any progress.

Nope.

(I don't really expect any, actually. Hard to provide an answer when he doesn't have any, Just likes to bitch, and insult people who are more knowledgeable.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:19 PM

But GfinS says again that a plan is forth-coming... Of course we've heard that before and apt to hear it again...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 12 - 06:11 PM

That poor little dog's life is hanging by a thread, Bobert. "Be vewy, vewy cawreful what you say," to quote Elmer Fudd.

****

Now, here's another arguing addict who wants to weigh in on the Mudcat political threads. He's small, but he packs a wicked punch! Yes, this little guy is absolutely enraged about the political situation in America, and willing to take on all comers and tell them exactly what he thinks of them! The only trouble is, we need a translator, because I'm not sure what side he's on. Is he a homophobic, fundamentalist, redneck, gun-loving, racist supporter of Fox and the Tea Party? Or is he a limp-wristed, atheistic, union-loving, latte-drinking, traitorous, sexually deviant, socialist Obama-hugger? That's the question. ;-D Which absolutely awful and complete character stereotype shall we saddle him with?

Well, anyway, here's what he has to say:

And he's REALLY ANGRY!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:13 PM

Same dog I saw diggin' in my newly planted asparagus bed... Shoot the sumabich, LH, and then ship him to me... I'll grind him up and use him for fertilizer...

Send the Rocky, too... I don't eat 'um but the P-Vine will...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:23 PM

The squirrel? But...he might be on your side, Bobert. He could be a registered Democrat, after all...or an independent who is willing to vote for Obama. Don't be hasty until we get an interpreter to work out exactly what he's saying. Then we'll know if he's good or evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 08:31 PM

I'm willing to risk it, LH... Give the tree rat the gun...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:08 PM

BTW, I'd bet that Fido & Rocky's bodies arrive at my door from the Fed Ex guy before GfinS gets around to presenting an alternate plan to the Affordable Care Act...

BTW, Part 2... Looks like many Republican states have chosen to disobey federal law which requires them to set up health care insurance exchanges as part of a provision of the Affordable Care Act... Reminds me of Little Rock, Selma, Farmville...

Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the halls...

But this is what Redneck Nation does...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:20 PM

Same old meaningless static.

But that's to be expected from this source. Ignore.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:28 PM

Yup, Don... If anything, I guess we are the insane... We keep expecting the GfinS plan??? There won't be one... GfinS, as many folks have pointed out, is a bitcher and complainer, ain't a policy wonk... Ain't in GfinS's DNA... Bitchin'??? Yeah... Complainin'??? Heck, yeah... Ideas??? Are you kiddin' me???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 May 12 - 12:05 AM

Has anyone polled Massachusetts residents to see how they like their healthcare system? The "public mandate" is just a thinly-masked way to avoid the nasty word "taxes"----and so what? It's obvious that, for universal insurance to work, everyone must be covered...and everyone must pay a share.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 12 - 12:46 AM

Exactly. Same as legally mandated car insurance. Everyone needs auto insurance coverage in case of an emergency...which can incur enormous costs in personal injuries and resulting medical care. Everyone shares the cost of auto insurance. Only a few have to use it at any one time. Therefore everyone can afford it since the cost gets spread around through the whole population.

And that's exactly how it should work with national health insurance...and does, in most places. But not the USA.

I'd rather pay a small amount of money each year in taxes than suddenly be owing someone a million dollars that I don't have and can't possibly get!

Why do so many Americans not get this? I'd guess, because they've been scared by false information and just don't understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:07 AM

LH...as you know, I am basically a socialist and support the NHS in principle, but the fears of many people in the US about such a scheme are not without foundation.

Our NHS no longer funtions as a genuine public service, as it is widely abused by a new generation with different values.

Everyone has the "right" to abuse the service and most do regularly.
from drug companies, GP's, right down to the general public.

A national health service is a wonderful ideal, but people must be made to understand and appreciate the value of such a service.....a value which cannot always be weighed in personal terms.

A service which is worth more than we can take from it personally.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:17 AM

Sorry LH.....I meant to link to your last post by saying that insurance fraud has become part of life in the UK....the additional cost is added to our house and car insurance annually, which means that honest people have to subsidise the fraudsters through their insurance premiums.

As a builder i am approached regularly by people (who can well afford to pay for their repairs),to falsify insurance claims.

I'm afraid our society is fucked!.....We dont need "liberal democracy", we need another Fidel Castro!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 12 - 09:34 AM

You already know the answer to your own question, LH...

The for-huge-profits health insurance companies like things just the way they are... If you look at the vast sums of $$$ that went to Dick Armey's lobbyist firm and then funneled to FreedomWorks who then funneled the cash to the Tea Party then you understand why American's don't get it...

It's a matter of what Bill Clinton calls "microphone time" and in Amnerica he who has the most $$$ also has has the most "micropone time"...

Now people might think, "So what?"... Unfortunately, the candidate who spends the most still wins 90% of elections... Same with policies... The US has been deluged with anti-Affordable Care Act PR... Some of it comes in TV ads paid for by very patriotic sounding organization and the rest from the Tea Party 24/7 SCREAMING at US...

Here's the deal, LH... Who exactly has the money or clout on the pro- Affordable Care Act to take on the Big Boys??? No one... If Obama gets 20 seconds of face time on the evening news saying exactly what you and dick greenhouse are saying by the end of the night the haters will log in 5-10 minutes...

What America is suffering from is planned & willful ignorance and unless we reconstitute some kind of "fairness" (equal time" doctrine we are going to continue in a downward spiral...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 12 - 09:53 AM

Yup, I know, Bobert. Just as you say. It's a very sad situation.

We have a neocon prime minister in Canada who I am sure would LOVE to dismantle and privatize our public health insurance system...but he doesn't DARE to, because it would be political suicide for him to even attempt it. People here are used to having a socialized health care system, and it has massive public support, so no Canadian politician dares to dismantle it.

Damn good thing! If it wasn't for that system, a lot of people I know who've had illnesses in the family would be homeless now, penniless, living on the street....or dead...my family included (due to illnesses my parents suffered in their last few years of life).

***

Akenaton - Interesting stuff you post about the situation in the UK. Seems like a general decline in standards of honesty has gone right through your system there. I wonder where the rot started? And when? There is undoubtedly some abuse of our Canadian public health services too by people who are taking advantage...but it's not something I worry about too much. The main point is, if someone here gets cancer, liver failure, kidney failure, serious injury, etc...the care they need is covered by tax-funded health insurance that everyone pays...and that is the only sane way to do it.

To not do so would be kind of like having a fire department that only responds to calls from rich people whe can PAY BIG BUCKS for a visit from firemen...and lets the other people's houses burn to the ground...because they want you to pay them at least $30,000 on the spot just to make a "house call". That's what would happen if the fire department was a "for profit" organization.

And that would be a blatant crime against humanity, deserving of a violent revolution and the overthrow of the criminals by said humanity.

I think the present social/governmental system in the USA is richly deserving of such an overthrow...but I wouldn't recommend it. The "cure" in such a case would probably turn out to be even worse than the original ailment. Violent revolutions have a way of doing that...and they usually end up killing mostly innocent people.

One exception I'd make to that, though, was Castro's revolution. I think Cuba was way better off having that revolution succeed than they would have been having it fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:23 PM

Right on, Little Hawk!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 12 - 02:57 PM

Well, one thing is for sure and that is Cuba has universal health care and from what I have heard is purdy good...

Maybe that's why the righties want to keep the embargo going... They don't want too many Americans discovering that it is much more humanistic when it comes to health care then we are...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:09 PM

Fables of wealth.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:56 PM

I didn't mean as a war leader LH....I meant as an inspiration, that's what we need more than anything else.

Our current leaders, Obama, Romney, Cameron, Milliband are all wedded to a corrupt system, despite what they say none of them want anything resembling "CHANGE".

Anyway, we no longer have a choice, it's change or perish.....and it wont be the sort of "democratic" change to which the "liberals" pay lip service.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:00 PM

'Anyway, we no longer have a choice, it's change or perish.....and it wont be the sort of "democratic" change to which the "liberals" pay lip service.'

Hi, Ake. Tell you what, old friend, when you hit the nail on the head you hit it a good one. Trust all is well.

B

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 12 - 04:20 PM

Here are a couple sobering facts:

2/3s of bankruptcies in the US are a result of health care costs...

There over 1,500,000 in the US bankruptcies in 2011...

Now I'm sure that folks understand the concept of the ripple effect and here's how those bankruptcies effected all of US:

*100s of thousands of home fore-closers which has depressed not only the housing market, the value of existing home but the economy in general

*100s of thousands of smaller retailers effected as receivables were written off...

*100s of miilions og kids getting pulled away from their schools and friends...

*100s of millions of domestic violence & divorces...

*100s of millions of families having to move in with relatives and/or friends...

Plus suicides, murders, crime, more police hours, clogged courts, incarcerations, etc., etc....

Tell me again why we should do nothing, GfinSs of the world...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:32 AM

When did he say we should do nothing, Bobert? I don't think anyone here is suggesting to "do nothing". The primary thing that leads to the endless arguments between GfS and his loyal opposition here is simply this: he criticizes Obama and the Democrats as well as criticizing the Republicans. He says they're both wrong.

If he concentrated only on criticizing the Republicans and the Right, instead of attacking both the Right and the Left in the USA, you'd love him. ;-) But he doesn't restrict his attacks to only one partisan angle. He attacks both of them. And that's why these disputes keep arising. It troubles you that he attacks Obama and the Democrats...you hardly even notice if he attacks the Right (and he does), because you are so incensed over him attacking the Left.

Well, the thing is, from outside the USA it looks very much like those 2 parties are really serving the same imperial, military, and banking interests...but are tailoring their divisive rhetoric quite differently to appeal to 2 bitterly divided constituencies in the USA (sometimes called "liberals" and "conservatives", among other things).

And yet...they both go to war in foreign lands, they both abrogate your civil rights, they both privatize public institutions, they both bail out banksters, they both lie and grandstand to get your votes...but they deliver superficially different messages about various emotionally-charged (and sometimes very trivial) issues to manipulate different sectors in your public.

Right now, for instance, Obama is maneuvering around the issue of gay marriage. I doubt that it's an accident...or a sudden noble inspiration he got. I think it's a calculated election tactic. Romney is put in an awkward place by that tactic (he wouldn't want to be seen as a homophobe...but he wouldn't want to be seen as a traitor to the fundamentalist Christians either...so he has to tread very carefully in how he responds...his method of responding looks like it will be to barely respond at all). I think Obama's people have gambled that it will work well for them. It is a gamble, because it might backfire at the polls.

Anyway, I think it's a distraction to what they really care about in the high levels of power. They couldn't care less about gay marriage rights one way or the other (in my opinion)...it's a non-issue to most of those guys in truth...but they do care deeply about fighting wars, making money, having power, and controlling oil.

The rest is just a shiny bright ribbon tied around Pandora's Box to get the public all worked up about something that will hopefully translate into votes in November. It's the usual electoral soap opera that happens every 4 years.

And we'd all like to do something to change the way things are. But what? That is the $60 trillion dollar question, and I'm certainly not going to say that I have the answer to it, because I know darned well that I don't. Hell, I have enough trouble changing my own life in any significant way without lapsing into the incredible hubris to think that I would have a prescription all worked out for changing America!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:32 AM

So just give up, eh?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:40 AM

Little Hawk, first you say "nobody is saying 'do nothing,'" and then you say "there's nothing we can do."

???????????

What ARE you saying?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:06 AM

I had high hopes for Obama, but unfortunately he's no FDR. But then, he's had this obstructionist Congress to deal with. The vicious and mean-spirited attacks that have been flung at him right from the start give a clear idea of the nature of the opposition he's been facing.

I DO NOT buy this glib and cynical idea that he's simply been bought. Given a second term, I think he might surprise a lot of people. Especially if there are a few more Democrats in Congress.

I've met a few politicians who would not only sell you their grandmother, but who will deliver. But I also know--personally--a number of politicians who are honest and genuinely concerned for the citizens and the state of the country. They have integrity, and not only have they not been bought, they are not for sale!

I will NOT give up, thank you very much!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:35 AM

Hi Brucie Baby!!...It must be all these years with the big stone hammer! :0)

Bruce, i've been meaning to PM you just to catch up...will do so in the next few days.....my very best A.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 09:08 AM

Here's the deal, LH...

GfinS has been all over Obama for anything and everything Obama has done, tried to do, not done or has not tried to do...

Obama got the A0ffordable Care Act thru Congress and, whereas no one is saying it's perfect, reasonable people see it as a step in the right direction..

So those of us who are part of the "reasonable people" challenged GfinS to offer and alternative and GfinS agreed... That was 2 weeks ago... I mean, if GfinS had a better idea then he would have presented it by now... So, it's safe to assume that GfinS...

a. hates the Affordable Care Act

and

b. has no atlternative...

Put those two together and guess what you have, LH???

Give up???

You have nothing... In other words, just go back to before the Affordable Care Act with 50,000,000 uninsured...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 15 May 12 - 10:00 AM

I don't really care what GfS believes or doesn't. The reason everyone is down on him all the time is because he's a raging asshole. Well, OK, that and the fact that he is so unethical he can't tell the difference between Republican policy and Democrat policy. Oh, wait, that's just another way of saying he's a raging asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 10:25 AM

Tell us how you really feel, John... LOL...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:10 PM

Don, what I meant is...we would all like to see something done to change what's wrong with society. Agreed?

However, who would it be done by? And how? It looks to me like it would be done by the people who run the government, because they are the ones who enact new legislation and have the power to change what's going on in society.

So we try to persuade them to do what we think would be good to do. We try to persuade them in various ways. By voting. By voicing our opinions publicly. By writing letters. By whatever way we can work it out.

If they respond to us favorably, fine. If they don't...then what?

I'm not saying that nothing should be done. I'm not saying that nothing can be done. What I am saying is that 5 or 6 argumentative, personally critical and judgemental blathermouths on THIS talk forum here who get together to fight about it every day are NOT going to be the people who actually DO something about it! ;-)

Now, do you get what I mean? I'm seeing a lot of hubris and grandstanding here, and it's just people expressing their frustration and getting wound up.

Why should anyone here care what GfS thinks? How important can it be? Why should you care what I think and why should I care what you think...in light of the fact that it's about as important as what Mrs McGillicuddy's poodle thinks? Our petty little opinions are not WORTH fighting over with each other every day of our lives, Don. We could be happier not doing so, and we could get on with doing something more positive than endlessly trying to prove someone else wrong.

But if you think your individual activities in regards to "saving the nation" are hugely significant and will make a big difference...fine with me...get right out there and do your thing. I wish you all the luck in the world. Seriously. And I wish GfS all the luck in the world too. And you too, Bobert. ;-) We could all use some good luck now and then.

You now what the Mudcat political threads are? They're a walk through an emotionally toxic waste dump. And they're a serious emotonal and mental addiction for a few people. Addictions aren't good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:02 PM

It's important, LH, because, in essence, what is going on here is a microcosm of what is going out out there...

We have a law in place... It's called the Affordable Care Act... It was not only passed by majorities in both houses but also had to climb a steep mountain by getting not 51 Senate votes but 60 Senate votes...

Here's the rub... Many states that are run by Republicans won't even set up the insurance exchanges that the law calls for because they don't like the law...

I mean, either we are the "United States" or we aren't... I have no problems with states not wanting to obey the laws of the United States opting out of the country... If the South wants to leave, fine...

Reality is that the South doesn't want to leave because it gets more back in federal dollars than it pays in... The South just wants to think of federal law as a lunch menu...

They (we) have gotten away with all but desegregating our schools with bogus charter schools so folks have this mentality that anything they don't wnat to do they can just sandbag and sandbag some more and eventually the crybabies wear everyone out...

That is what GfinS has done here...

No, nothing that anyone says here will change what the Supreme Court will do but having these discussions is all part of the "little" things that is part of having an informed electorate that Thomas Jefferson said democracy needs...

I mean, sure, we could all just sit on our hands, play our music and make no effort and let the BS section become just the Chongz & Aches 'n Pains section but there's more to life than imaginary monkeys and bum knees... Or is there???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 01:50 PM

Little Hawk, another lecture from you that indicates that you flunked your Remedial Polical Science class.

"I'm not saying that nothing should be done. I'm not saying that nothing can be done."

So you're saying that one's efforts in the political realm are simply futile? If so, then, why even attempt?

You ARE counseling that people who are concerned with the way the country is being run are wasting their time and energy to even attempt to change it.

You can't have it both ways.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:03 PM

One Affordable Care Act coming up:

Take what Canada & the UK do, give the basics to Bernie Sanders, Barney Frank, Elizabeth Warren. Let them choose a committee to work out details relevant to the USA such as:
   Start taking a bit more in deductions (pro-rated according to income!), reduce malpractice insurance costs, prosecute Medicare fraud with a WILL, allow drug imports, get rid of all the Republican attempts at legislating abortion and contraception..... and a few more... YOU add some.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:13 PM

Oh fuck!... why dont some of the "brilliant minds" on here learn to interpret

Little Hawk is saying we are doing the wrong thing....for fuck sake!
and he is perfectly correct, playing the political game is actally regressive.

If we really want to change this shit heap, it can only be done by conducting ourselves as people, not political pawns.

It is not us aginst the conservatives, without the conservatives and their many good ideals we will change nothing.
It is "US"(lft and right and centre)against the system which prints the labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 02:32 PM

Hells Bells, Ake... Have another hit of Geritol, man...

No, what LH is saying is that everything sucks and will suck forever so sit on yer hands, play your music, don't worry and be happy...

That is what defeatist do, Ake, ol buddy...

That's what way too many people did back in the 30s in Germany...

Not striving to make a better world is irresponsible... Yer not paying for your carbon footprint if that's all you have to give...

Here in the US we have a very dangerous minority - as Hitler did in the beginning - that is advocating the privatization of everything... They've all but killed the public school system already... I mean, I'm not going to sit on my hands here or in my community... I write more letters to newspapers and congressmen in a week than most people do in a life time... I go to the demonstrations... I make my donations and...

..I post here because I think that if I throw enough FACTS at people then some will one day wake up, just as my Republican father did late in life, and say, "Fuck it... My son is right... These people really are creeps!!!"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:07 PM

Well, Ake wants us all to get together and storm the Winter Palace.

When Lenin was accused of betraying the Revolution, he responded, "What's the sense of having a revolution if you can't betray it?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:23 PM

You are right Bob...we should strive to make a better world.....but I think LH is of the opinion that we should not divide ourselves on Party political lines, our real battle is against the powers of darkness...the global capitalists, the corporations, the financial institutions and we should not allow ourselves to be diverted by political constructs.
It will be a long road and none of us will see it, but some day we will live in a world of peace and unity,where people are valued for what they contribute to society, not for the amount of money they can amass.

I heard a Chinese guy on radio today, he was asked for his opinion on the contrast between UK workers and Chinese workers.
He said that there was an enormous difference. A Chinese is ashamed to be without a job...his family are ashamed that he has no job...
He feels part of a team at work no matter how menial the task he has to perform. Chinese are encouraged to respect everyone who contributes to society from scientist to road sweeper.

The guy has lived here for a few years and reckons there is a culture of "Entitlement"....to be looked after when the system fucks up...no attachment to the betterment of society...only the urge to do well personally and of course the number who "make it big" is very small.

I suppose after another twenty years of a capitalist economy the Chinese will be just like us, "Rights" for all, a rich elite and a huge lumpen,purposeless underclass. What an aspiration!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 05:05 PM

I don't buy that either, Ake...

The UK and the USA have one thing in common: they are each wealthy and each has a problem with income disparity...

Here in the US 1/2 of the population lives ar 125% of the poverty threshold OR LESS... With the cost of living if the government were to end its social programs, the US would look like Somalia in 30 days and drop into a Depression that would make the Great Depression of the 20s and 30s look like the good ol' days... At least then people lived on farms and could grow their own food...

That isn't "entitlements"... That's basic survival needs...

As for LH, I'll stick with what I have said... We don't have luxury of allowing the Republicans enough power to destroy our safety nets... That is not an option... And make no bones about it... Given the "stand your ground laws", all the union busting and the disenfranchisement of voters these radical libertarians will do just that...

Maybe that's what you want, Ake... An insurrection... I don't... I'd rather do it Dr. King's way...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 15 May 12 - 05:51 PM

Well Bobert I was rather thinkin' Dr King's way.
The Civil Rights movement could never have succeeded without the support of the conservative majority.
Everyone knew that discrimination on grounds of colour was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bill D
Date: 15 May 12 - 06:41 PM

"Everyone knew that discrimination on grounds of colour was wrong. "

But not on grounds of 'lack of religion' or 'being female'

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 12 - 07:15 PM

And not everyone knew that "discrimination on grounds of colour was wrong"...

Still don't...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 May 12 - 11:21 PM

"Everyone knew that discrimination on grounds of colour was wrong."

But discrimination based on what naturally and involuntarily arouses you is mandatory in the name of public health.

Got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 May 12 - 11:24 PM

...and while I am here and on this topic...don't forget that before we were promised a detailed analysis and recommendations of US health care, we were promised (two years ago?) some "eye-opening revelations" from "The Counselor" regarding causes of homosexuality.

Memory of an an elephant is both blessing and curse.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 12 - 02:54 AM

AHH!..I finally got to respond to some rather amateurish nonsense from so whipped up, frustrated ideologues, who are watching their 'messiah' slip in the polls!

Little Hawk(not a parrot): "Okay, that's it. This has gone far enough. You're all making yourselves sick...."

Well, Obamacare won't be able to help them get well!..Some messiahs can heal the sick, and make the infirmed, whole again...Obama, the illusionary messiah, makes the lame, blind!
Congrats!

PDQ: ""...With the passage of the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies were allowed to consolidate. The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton."

Yes, BTW, you forgot the Tom Delay(presently in jail), was the 'hammer' to get this to Clinton, on behalf of his banking buddies. Clinton was such a great Democrat, working on the behalf of the beliefs of a lot of VERY LIBERAL(?) folks like a lot of you, could have vetoed it......ever wonder why he didn't??? (HINT: He was working for the banking buddies, too!)..Fooled ya'...didn't he??!!??
He was either VERY stupid, or very clever at deceiving the intentions of those who voted for the scumbag!...Bobert should re-think his incense burning to the Democratic party, just based on that one, alone! Stupid dick-wad(Clinton), set the groundwork to completely fuck up the economy, just for his banking pals....well, didn't he?

Don Firth: "Busy day. Just checking in to see if there has been any progress.
Nope."

That's 'progressives' for ya' 'two steps forward three steps back!'
(P.S. I'll get to it when I get to it....There REALLY IS life away from the computer!!....and I've been buried in busy..and then there is reading all the stuff, that nobody WANTS to read.....(or can't)!

Bobert: "But GfinS says again that a plan is forth-coming... Of course we've heard that before and apt to hear it again..."

'If you have reached this recording in error, try calling back a little later'

Don Firth: "Right on, Little Hawk!"

Of course!

Guest,999: "'Anyway, we no longer have a choice, it's change or perish.....and it wont be the sort of "democratic" change to which the "liberals" pay lip service.'

Hi, Ake. Tell you what, old friend, when you hit the nail on the head you hit it a good one. Trust all is well."

Kudos to both of you!

Bill D: "Take what Canada & the UK do, give the basics to Bernie Sanders, Barney Frank, Elizabeth Warren. Let them choose a committee to work out details relevant to the USA such as...."

BARNEY FRANK?????????!!!!????.....Now I know you're nuts!....He just did wonders with Fannie and Freddie....i wonder if he'll get prosecuted for corruption charges....at least he ain't runnin' again..ever wonder why? He made his crooked millions(or billions) he'll be frolicking off in 'See ya', suckers, world!'

From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 12 - 12:32 AM (too long to post again)....but right on!....Bobert could never understand that post..way too 'dialed in' and over his head! Bobert wants a cracker...to some, he is a cracker!

Don Firth: "I've met a few politicians who would not only sell you their grandmother, but who will deliver. But I also know--personally--a number of politicians who are honest and genuinely concerned for the citizens and the state of the country. They have integrity, and not only have they not been bought, they are not for sale!"

You have actually met Obama????...Integrity????....He's got more broken promises, and told more lies than just about anybody in recent history!!!!!.......but there are those who just keep stroking themselves with excuses, of how he's still their messiah....but, with the power of the faithful, he is actually able to make the lame, blind again!!

Don Firth: "Little Hawk, another lecture from you that indicates that you flunked your Remedial Polical Science class."

You misspelled 'political'...wonders never cease!....(Clue: stick to music!)

Bobert: "Here's the deal, LH...
GfinS has been all over Obama for anything and everything Obama has done, tried to do, not done or has not tried to do..."

Not so, when Amos and I went round and around, about him during the elections(I called him 'Oblabbo' at the time, because I clocked him as a liar, talking out his ass....I gave him a year, before I ever mentioned him again, on here, giving Amos AND Obama the benefit of the doubt, and to give him a chance to see if I was wrong...but like in music 'speed is a bi-product of accuracy'....I was right about him, and accurate...and time has validated my earlier position. I think I was more 'shovel ready' than he was!!!!

Akenaton: "Oh fuck!... why don't some of the "brilliant minds" on here learn to interpret
Little Hawk is saying we are doing the wrong thing....for fuck sake!
and he is perfectly correct, playing the political game is actually regressive.
If we really want to change this shit heap, it can only be done by conducting ourselves as people, not political pawns.
It is not us against the conservatives, without the conservatives and their many good ideals we will change nothing.
It is "US"(left and right and centre)against the system which prints the labels."

Right the fuck on!!!!! It's all theater, while the REAL bullshit is going on behind the scenes!! The arguments are just 'diversion and uproar' lest you hold these bastards accountable!

Tia: "...and while I am here and on this topic...don't forget that before we were promised a detailed analysis and recommendations of US health care, we were promised (two years ago?) some "eye-opening revelations" from "The Counselor" regarding causes of homosexuality."

I posted it long ago...(there is even more)..you must have missed it..go look it up!
..................................................................
......Now 'Silly Drivel Rage' posted a comment, on here, that I couldn't get to, because I was way too busy..but he called my music 'pretentious'...and that I was a 'pretentious musician'....well that post has been taken down....but if you really feel that way, I'll wager you...you bring $10,000, (not food stamps, or hippie beads), meet me here, we can arrange it, and you come down to the basement, I'll play for you, and two witnesses picked at randon...and if is ANYTHING but 'LIVE' and nobody's mind is blown....you win...if not, pay up....and put your money where your mouth is!....and BTW, I'll treat you to dinner at the best restaurant in town, afterwards!


P.S. Now some might take this wrong..and some will 'get it'...but, it is an honor to be reviled and ridiculed by some of you!......Jeez!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:10 AM

Sheeeeit!

All I do is come in here and post a news article and I am personally assaulted!

Ad Hominem 2.0:

"Personally, I think the OP was a conflation of hyperinflated vitriol concocted with equal parts spiteful generalization and inaccurate assertion."

Why not assail the facts presented with your own facts that disprove those facts you disagree with?

I think the reason might be that you have no facts to present so you attack the messenger.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:19 AM

Yo, GfinS...

Where's the beef??? Ahhhhh, the "PLAN" that you promised???

BTW, I did find your lengthy post entertaining but...

... you are dodging the issue here... Bet you are one heck of a dancer...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:48 AM

Oh, sorry, Sawz... Didn't mean to slight you...

We have thrown facts after facts after facts out here on this thread... The *FACT* that you and GfinS don't ***do facts*** is ya'll's problem, not TIA, Don, Stilly, et al or my problem...

GfinS promised to present an alternative to the Affordable Care Act... Had that actually occurred we would be having an interesting policy discussion but the right has no ideas... It is fascinated with "No"... Bring on your policy positions that deal with ***real*** policies and we can have discussions...

Sandbagging ain't a position...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 16 May 12 - 09:29 AM

I agree, Bobert. GfS and the rest of the right-wing don't seem to be able to continue any conversation past the bumper-sticker slogan stage. But there's more to the problem than that, if I may return for a moment to the asshole theory. If GfS wasn't a complete asshole all the time, these discussions wouldn't devolve the way they do. I would love to have a reasoned discussion on these topics, but it's pretty hard when GfS invades every thread and hurls imprecations at everyone he disagrees with. If the whole problem was that he doesn't have any answers he would just shut up. The real problem is that he doesn't have any answers and he's an asshole in how he talks to others. Little Hawk says we are all attacking each other, but he's wrong. GfS is attacking everyone else and starting fights. Little Hawk, of course, is one of the many who think our political stalemates are the result of both parties bickering. While not defending the many assholes amongst the Democrats, it is, by a vast margin, the Republicans who poison political dialogue in this country.

Quite like the Tea Party folks in that regard. And yes, GfS is a right-winger, at least with the social issues. Any analysis of his posts shows that. More, if you look at the other members who always agree with him and with who he always agrees, it becomes pretty obvious which pack he runs with. But even if he was a total progressive liberal, his tactics make him one with the Tea Party -- attack, no compromise, call names, attack, tell lies about others, attack, deny civil rights to minorities, attack, tell everyone else they are stupid, attack, lie, attack. If he was a simple troll, he might get ignored. But he's just enough of a real person to get taken seriously sometimes. But then he acts like an asshole again.

Get rid of the asshole and we will have better discussions. Here and as a nation as whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:10 AM

"Facts" by Bobert:

"The West Bank has the highest density of any place in the Middle East"

"When you think of it's size... Ahhhhh, no bigger than the Washington D.C. metropolitan area, it is one very packed and "concentrated" population center..."

Distric of Columbia area = 68.2 square miles Population 2006 = 581,530 Density = ?

West Bank area = 2263 sq mi population 1,714,845 June 2010 Density = ?

Do some math Bobert. You are a highly educaited college graduate aren't you?.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:41 AM

I can think of many scenarios where discrimination is not only "right" but imperative.
Colour prejudice is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:47 AM

Sorry, Sawz, but this thread is about the Affordable care Act... If you wnat to talk about other stuff then please start another thread... BTW, you have just proved John's point...

And, yes, John... It would be nice if the the No Party would step to the plate and tell US what their positions really are on health care... But they really don't have any position other then "no, no" and more "no"...

Prior to the crafting of this legislation Obama went to the Republican and asked for their input... Guess what he got??? Nothing...

Governance is all about policy and one party is will to do the heavy lifting and the the other are just crybaby freeloaders... Don't take Helen Keller to tell which party is witch...

This ain't 12 or 16 or 20 years ago... There is definately a major difference now between the parties...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 12 - 01:16 PM

Bobert: "Where's the beef??? Ahhhhh, the "PLAN" that you promised???"

You must not have understood that lengthy, but entertaining post...a addressed that question....and BTW, YOU demanded, along with Don, that I produce an alternate..and I said when I could, I may...the problem I'm having, in putting this stuff together, is, first, you don't even know what's in the original, to even compare it to..and the second is there is a LOT of stuff in this one, that, though I see the logic in it, a lot doesn't have to do with 'health care'....so let me sort it out, and stop being so pushy. I COULD give you some early observations..but I was going to wait till I read the WHOLE thing, and some supplemental stuff....and ease up...your wonderful Democratic 'representatives' didn't even do as much....and look how LONG it took them!!.....Maybe they were waiting for the highest bidder...I'm not. I just get to do it to listen to chronic whiners, argue about everything they don't know jack-shit about!


John P: "I agree, Bobert. GfS and the rest of the right-wing..."

I'm not a right winger...but you try to appear as if you are so 'left' wing that you are out of the ballpark, trying to play to the crowd.
..and BTW, in your post, that appears to have been deleted, you called me an 'absolute asshole'.....Excuse me, that's 'MISTER Absolute Asshole' to you, sir!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 May 12 - 01:32 PM

Bobert, I hear you but respectfully disagree. Over half the House and Senate are filled with millionaires. Sorry, buddy, but I don't think millionaires really have much understanding about poverty, and that's where the rubber hits the road. I recall when Martha Mitchell (the wife of AG John Mitchell under Nixon) decided to prove that people on social assistance didn't have it so tough. So, she lived for a whole month on an average welfare payment.Yeah. She could comparison shop in her chauffeur driven car and not account for the gas, or household electricity and she ended the month with a few bucks left over. What an airhead.

She didn't take into account dental or medical expenses because she was well provided for under her husband's health plans, covered by tax payers, and the Mouth of the South blandly reported that social assistance payments were more than adequate. Fawk, spare me.

I don't know that Democrats are deserting the ObamaCare plan in droves though. That sounds alarmist to this ol' boy. But neither do I think that Democrats are the answer. For sure the Republicans aren't.

Democrats used to be the party of working people, but with the new capitalism--read 'the old capitalism run by psychopaths'--I have no idea what the real answer is. IMO, shoot the fuckers and start over, but we know that won't fly. I fully expect the charade to end and that the USA will become a de facto police state before too long. I guess whoever has the most toys will win, and your country will be able to dispense with the play-acting and murder a hundred million or so of its citizens, either under the guise of responding to a natural disaster or one they manufacture. I hope not, but I think so. Keep yer powder dry and take a few with you, because I don't think the re-education camps will emulate a spring picnic.

We see similar thinking and have from every administration since.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 12 - 02:12 PM

"And make no bones about it... Given the "stand your ground laws", all the union busting and the disenfranchisement of voters these radical libertarians will do just that"

Sorry Bob i dont mean to stalk you, but isn't it clear that when capitalism is in decline(like NOW in the West), Unions are shown to be absolutely powerless and our "democratic votes" not worth the paper they're marked on.

If we cant see the contradictions,smoke, mirrors and downright lies at this juncture, there is indeed no hope for us and our stupidity will be roundly punished.

This system cannot be fixed....Perhaps the US will be sheltered from the worst effects, but Europe and the UK will not weather the storm.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 03:14 PM

Yo, GfinS... Seems yer having the same problem as yer TeaPub buddies... They're working on a plan, too, but having trouble putting it together... Actually they want you to vote for them on a promise that they will present their plan after the election...

BTW, yer buddy Sawz's Betty Ford counselor is looking for him... He is off his OCD meds...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 12 - 04:02 PM

There is little point in trying to have a serious discussion of the issues with someone like GfinS constantly interrupting with his shallow thinking and foul mouth.

Along with misquoting and misrepresenting what others say, about the best he can come up with in an effort to refute what I said in an entire post, he zeroes in on a TYPO—he, whose spelling, grammar, and punctuation verge on the illiterate. And he doesn't seem to know WHAT his political position is. He spouts Right Wing propaganda, then denies that he is a Right Winger.

I don't think he even KNOWS what his political position is. And make no mistake, everyone HAS a political position whether or not they are knowledgeable enough to analyse it, root out its inconsistencies, and be able to enunciate it clearly.

In the realm of politics—and in the realm of simple human relations—and just as a civilized human being, Michael is a couple of Chicken McNuggets short of a Happy Meal!

IGNORE HIM!!

####

I heard an excellent interview this morning on my local NPR affiliate. Local host and interviewer Steve Scher talked with former New Jersey Senator Bill Bradley, who had a LOT of good things to say. He has a new book out entitled, We Can All Do Better. Among other things, it is an appeal to citizens to educate themselves, then get off their butts and get involved in politics.

Bradley points out that the really important changes in American society and politics have almost always come as a result of people getting passionately involved. The anti-slavery movement in the 1800s that led to the Civil War and Emancipation, the Women's Suffrage Movement, the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, and the Peace Movement ending the Vietnam War—these actions forced the politicians to accede to the wishes of the citizens.

FDR used to tell citizens who were demanding changes during the Depression, "I agree with you. Now—MAKE me do it!!" By which he meant, "Give me the citizen support that I need to do this!"

This is what we need to do. Make noise. Give Obama and other politicians the popular support that they need to accomplish what we want them to accomplish—rather than doing nothing but bitching and complaining about what a lousy president Obama is and how we can do nothing because all politicians have been bought. As GfinS is doing. And Little Hawk.

Bradley points at the Tea Party and says that they managed to get some forty of the Republican candidates they favored elected to Congress in the last election. He lauds the Occupy Movement and says they have a good slogan ("We are the 99 percent!"), but contrary to what some have said, they need an agenda and they need to give strong support to political candidates who reflect their positions.

Those who sit around and claim that the "moneyed interests" are too powerful and there is no point in opposing them are greatly appreciated by—the moneyed interests. That's exactly what they want you to do: NOTHING!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 05:06 PM

Bill Bradley, in spite of being a professional basketball player, was a Rhodes Scholar if memory serves me correctly... And I read some congressman say that Bradley was always the best prepared in hearings and caucuses... A real policy wonk...

As for GfinS??? All one has to do is read the first sentence of the 2:54 post to see that GfinS had no interest in a policy discussion and I'd bet a dollar to dough nuts that there won't be any plan in any of our life times...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 12 - 05:08 PM

Hogwash, Don! Do you EVER have ANYTHING constructive to say, outside of music????...and for what it's worth, a guy in your position, would not be helped much, if at all, under Obamacare...sorry to say ol' chap, but it's true....Now let me finish this whole damn thing, so I for one, can give you an educated opinion..instead of your emotional bantering..OK?..
and knock off the childish(or second child-hoodish'), emotionally based recitation of the Democratic talking points.

Guest, 999....Your insights....dead on! I wish the phony 'liberal-ites' would wake up, and see what hand they are forcing. What they still CANNOT see or come to grips with, is they are DOING the things that they accuse the 'right' of doing!...which is EXACTLY the work of the banksters who control BOTH of them. This may well be the last ditch effort for the global banksters to seize control of everything here...with of course, the wrangling of the 'right' and 'left' factions. I'm NOT a Tea Partier, which I've said a ba-zillion times, but those who are 'slow of hearing' or understanding, can't wrap their brains, or what ever they are using, around it!...So the whine like little babies with packed diapers!

Hey, 'liberals', would you prefer a 'left-wing' police state over a 'right-wing' police state???
I prefer neither....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 12 - 06:36 PM

(Remember:    IGNORE!!)

DF

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 06:51 PM

Well, GfinS, if you don't want a right-winged police state then time for you to get your head out of their ass...

As for your assertion that we on the left are "ideologues"... You are wrong as wrong can be... There is not one liberal alive who didn't want a single payer system yet here we are having COMPROMISED and reluctantly accepting a step forward but not what we wanted...

That *********************is not******************** ideologue...

Try Websters now and then...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 12 - 07:12 PM

Okay, so I break my own injunction.

"...a guy in your position...."

Spell it out, Michael. What do you mean?
Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 07:23 PM

We don't need an injunction, Don... GfinS isn't winning anything here... Just showing just how ignorant the rude the right wing is...

Oh, that's right??? GfinS says he ain't right wing... LOL...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 12 - 07:47 PM

Excuse me, but what would be the point of guestsaying repeatedly that he wasn't a "right winger" if in fact he was.

I just don't understand what possible benefit he could gain by doing so.
I am definitely not "right wing" but I believe some of their ideals are beneficial to society.
Does that make me "right wing" in your eyes? Am I just pretending to be "left", are all my years of fighting this system a mirage?

To my mind, all who support this economic system are reactionary and mainly they come from the "liberal" fixers the great rump who attest that they can work to make things better, when it has become evident to the most politically naive that "things" are going to get steadily worse for at least a couple of generations.... that will take in your own grandchildren and in some cases great grandchildren.
All that matters to Party politicians is the continuation of "The System", for in effect, they are part of it ....bought and paid for!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 12 - 07:58 PM

Sorry, Ake, but you ain't in GfinS class/un-class... Your positions come from your heart and don't seem to match up too well with any political party...

GfinS, on the other hand, has his tent pitched squarely in the middle of the Tea Party Tent Villiage... 100% of GfinS's positions are Tea, Tea and if ya' didn't like that TEA, more Tea..

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:06 PM

"all who support this economic system are reactionary and mainly they come from the 'liberal' fixers....."

WHAT!??

You mean you flunked out of Remedial Political Science also, Ake?

(Maybe some people here are speaking a whole, strange, alien lanuguage. That would explain a lot.....)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:28 PM

Bobert "fact":

"Sorry, Sawz, but this thread is about the Affordable care Act... If you wnat to talk about other stuff then please start another thread"

Read the topic Bobert the bully. It says Etc.

And your "facts" are still fairy tales. You are the OCD candidate for Betty Ford.

Ol' Bobert don't ***do facts*** He gets all buzzed up, does what if's and fairy tales and tells people what they can post.

Folks that claim that the West Bank is no bigger than Washington DC definitely need a Betty Ford detox from the shine and weed.

By the way, have your health care costs become more affordable yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:46 PM

A CBS News/New York Times poll shows 47 percent of Americans disapprove of the president's Affordable Care Act, including 30 percent who strongly disapprove. In the poll, conducted March 21-25, only 36 percent of those questioned said they support the law either somewhat or strongly.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:54 PM

ObamaCare cost the president "a lot of credibility as a leader," said Virginia Sen. Jim Webb.

"The climate out there was really ugly because of it," said Rep. Norm Dicks, D-Wash.

Former Rep. Artur Davis, D-Ala., says ObamaCare "is the single least popular piece of major domestic legislation in the last 70 years." It will be "an albatross" for Democrats in 2012, Davis predicts.

Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., had labored in 2009 to develop a health reform plan that could win bipartisan support.

Having Republicans on board would have deflected the sharp partisan divide, but the White House short-circuited the effort because the president and his advisers grew impatient with the delay.

As it is, the health care overhaul law is in serious trouble and may either be struck down by the Supreme Court â€" in part or in full â€" or become a major issue in the 2012 elections, with a strong effort on behalf of conservatives to push for full repeal next year.

Two-thirds of the American people in a recent Washington Post/ABC News poll said they want all or part of the law to be struck down by the courts. If the Congress remains divided and President Obama is re-elected, major changes will have to be made to the law.

The cost is soaring even before most of its provisions take effect in 2014. The Congressional Budget Office now calculates the 10-year cost will be $1.76 trillion, nearly twice the $940 billion estimated when the law was enacted two years ago. In an era of ballooning federal deficits, these costs are simply unacceptable.

Further, major companies are seriously considering dropping health insurance coverage altogether to avoid the huge costs of complying with the employer mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 May 12 - 11:32 PM

Besides being 'entertaining', as Bobert posts...there was a question in the post, that is NOT being addressed, but thoughtfully avoided.
My contention is that BOTH parties a working in behalf, and at the behest of their corrupt corporate banking buddies...some of you think 'not'...so explain this, from my post....I'm all ears...

"Tom Delay(presently in jail), was the 'hammer' to get this to Clinton, on behalf of his banking buddies. Clinton was such a great Democrat, working on the behalf of the beliefs of a lot of VERY LIBERAL(?) folks like a lot of you, could have vetoed it......ever wonder why he didn't??? (HINT: He was working for the banking buddies, too!)..Fooled ya'...didn't he??!!??
He was either VERY stupid, or very clever at deceiving the intentions of those who voted for the scumbag!...Bobert should re-think his incense burning to the Democratic party, just based on that one, alone! Stupid dick-wad(Clinton), set the groundwork to completely fuck up the economy, just for his banking pals....well, didn't he?"

Key question: " Clinton was such a great Democrat, working on the behalf of the beliefs of a lot of VERY LIBERAL(?) folks like a lot of you, could have vetoed it......ever wonder why he didn't???"

Your 'thoughts'(?).

Hi Sawzaw....y' been away for a while. your posts were, once again, to the point....I don't know if the 'left' knows what to do with answering....they'll probably just smear you...that's all they know...that being said, I'm not a right winger, despite some whiner's assertions.....I think they do the repetitious, broken record, nagging thing, because their used to their ol' laddie's constant reminding them to 'lift the seat', and 'eat over the sink!'...and they're of the mindset of NOT listening!...just 'nag-driven'!

OK.......... "Clinton was such a great Democrat, working on the behalf of the beliefs of a lot of VERY LIBERAL(?) folks like a lot of you, could have vetoed it......ever wonder why he didn't???"

Well??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 May 12 - 12:46 AM

Along with my premise of our 'representatives' NOT representing their constituents, but rather the big 'special interest' money guys, and much like my Clinton question, explain this....

Bobert: "There is not one liberal alive who didn't want a single payer system....."

....except the ones who voted for it....why was that???....and just WHY? You are supporting them, but they are NOT supporting you! What gives here?

Frankly, I, who you think is such a 'right winger, Cracked Teapot' would have been supporting that, as well...even Kucinich, who i thought was more 'on'......but they didn't...ever ask yourselves, "What was in the provisions of the bill, that made that such an imperative???"...and THAT'S where the devil lurks in the details!!!...NOT in the government providing health care...all the other stuff that hinges on those 'benefits' to someone(?), for NOT having a single payer....which, same provisions puts it up in the Supreme Court!!!...AND have a LOT of VERY Sane people, bailing OUT, on supporting the bill.
Can't you understand that???

So, now you have TWO (related) questions to answer...and YOU brought it up!
Could this be as stupid, or deceptive as Clinton NOT vetoing the repeal, of Glass-Steagall??????

What are the Democrats spinning about this?..Surely, any 'concerned liberal Democrat' would have to want SOME explanation...even if it was just 'spin'....

Your turn.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 12 - 09:20 AM

Apparently you have no real understanding about politics, GfinS...

Politics has been described as the "art of compromise"... We on the left have had to do all the compromising... It's all we could get and, unlike hostage takers like you and yer Tea-buds, we'll take it over getting nothing...

This thread is about the Affordable Care Act... Not Sawz OCD or his fixations on me... Not about the Middle East... Not about Tome Delay or Bill Clinton or Monika Blewinski...

It's about the Affordable Care Act...

While your free association ramblings are entertaining they are just a ploy - defense mechanism - you are using to divert attention away from your obvious weakness which simply put is that you are clueless about the subject at hand...

You remind me of a musician who only has an hour's worth of material and is asked to perform for 2 hours so the 2nd hours is just one long, "Both Sides Shuffle" with a few key changes but the same old song...

Here's an idea for ya'... Why not Google up "Affordable Care Act" and pass over the first couple of pages where the right wing bloggers have found a way to clog up the search engines and get into the meat and taters of the act without the hate and agendas... Yeah, spend a little time acquainting yourself with the details of the legislation so that when you come back here you'll have a more interesting 2nd set that is based on, ahhhhhhh, facts rather than emotion...

In other words... Time is up on for the "Both Sides Shuffle"... We've grown tired of it... You need new material...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 12 - 10:19 AM

"The poll found that:

Fifty-six percent of Americans think Barack Obama will win the 2012 presidential election, compared with 36 percent who think Mitt Romney will win. Democrats are more likely to believe that Obama will win than Republicans are to believe Romney will. Independents are nearly twice as likely to think that Obama, rather than Romney, will prevail."

NYT referring to a USA Today poll.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 May 12 - 12:01 PM

Bobert: "Bobert: "There is not one liberal alive who didn't want a single payer system....."

....except the ones who voted for it....why was that???...

OK.......... "Clinton was such a great Democrat, working on the behalf of the beliefs of a lot of VERY LIBERAL(?) folks like a lot of you, could have vetoed it......ever wonder why he didn't???"


What??..Are you going to run and hide from an answer, as usual???

If you want somebody to support your 'cause', at least answer some questions, when they ask....Jeez.....or are we just supposed to 'fall in line', because the propaganda machine tells us to??????????

That's just the way politics works..the guys at the top want their way, and the rest of us are supposed to stay stupid, and take their 'word' for it.

Sorry.....I don't belong to ANY party of lyin' bullshitters...but I could get behind some stuff...if only I had GOOD REASON.....give me one, that outweighs the bad reasons.
That's all I'm askin' you.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 May 12 - 02:38 PM

GfinS:   "What??..Are you going to run and hide from an answer, as usual???"

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!!! Look who's talking!!!

GfinS doesn't even tap-dance around a straight question. He just ignores it entirely and blunders ahead like a blind elephant (appropriate, considering that it's the GOP symbol), and demands that others answer his questions!

He's got NUTHIN'!! Why waste time and bandwidth on this foulmouthed intellectual vacuum?

Don Firth

P. S. If you delete all the personal insults and such, GfinS's posts read like Livingston's "Liberty Alerts," which ooze with hatred for Obama and anything to the left of Atilla the Hun.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 12 - 02:52 PM

Do you have a point, GfinS???

I mean, yeah... Liberals made it be known that we wanted single payer... We didn't have the votes for it... So liberals, ahhhhhh...

...compromised!!!

Where's the smokin' gun here??? Well, there really isn't one and whatever point 6you are trying to make has nothing to do with the discussion...

BTW, Bill Clinton has never been and never will be a "liberal"... He is a Nixon Republican...

Now, do yoy want to ********************discuss**********************
policy or just continue with your rope-a-dope sandbagging???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 17 May 12 - 05:12 PM

Interesting idea, Don. Here's GfS's post of 16 May 12 at 05:08 PM with all insults and obvious misrepresentations removed:

Hogwash, Don! Now let me finish this whole damn thing

Guest, 999....Your insights....dead on! This may well be the last ditch effort for the global banksters to seize control of everything here... I'm NOT a Tea Partier . . .

If you take out the crap there's not much left.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 12 - 05:32 PM

It's all crap...

I'm waiting for the 100 mpg carburetor that the government refuses to see light of day...

Oh yeah, the 5 Jewish families that rule the entire Earth...

But no matter... GfinS is hopelessly misinformed about health care & the Affordable Care Act and that is precisely why all we get is the same old regurgitated crap...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 12 - 06:26 PM

You guys are STILL here fighting about this? Knowing what you know about Gust and his proclivity for squabbling and posturing with pure nonsense? Is there nothing else to do on these nice days? Go outside and work in your gardens, ferchristsake!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 May 12 - 06:47 PM

Stilly's right!

Like all trolls, GoofuS thrives on attention.

There's nothing to be learned from him, he's full of misinformation, and his whole purpose is to screw up any attempts at rational discourse, so if his posts go unread and unresponded to, he'll just go away and make an ass of himself somewhere else.

IGNORE!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 12 - 06:54 PM

I spent a good 8 hours working in the gardens, Magz... I come in take a break every 2 hours fir 10 minutes...

I don't let GfinS bother me at all... If I did, I'd quit posting... When boorish people attack others there comes a point where it becomes a big yawn...

The bigger issue here is that the entire Republican Party has become the party of intolerant brown shirts... They don't accept facts... The hate science... Sound familiar??? It should... This is what the Taliban is about...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 May 12 - 11:40 PM

This Hogwash is what one gets when the blusterers CAN'T answer a question straight..it's an OLD tactic...and quite childish...and now part of the act is to pretend to act so indignant. You just can't see, or admit that Obama and Clinton were just shills and puppets, for the VERY people you claim to be against...and counting on that, you got sold a bad bill of goods.

Oh, how dare GfS for asking a logical question that to answer, we'd have to THINK outside our programmed box of trigger responses!!

You're pathetically boring!...and CAN'T admit when you've run out of talking point tricks. Perhaps you can thry thinking it through.

Sorry to piss you off....but the lame are also blind!
......................................................................
......................................................................

Program note:(from another thread currently running. i just cut and pasted it...

I heard it on the 'Breaking news' today...I was going to post, when I heard it. Donna was a friend, who we met through her sound engineers. She even gave us her cat, a tortoise shell Persian, named 'Charlemagne'. Steve and Jurgen worked with her at Rusk Sound Studios in Hollywood, on Sunset. I've got some cool stories, one, I may have posted on here, not too long ago.
Truly a good person, screwed around by her label, and a true talent. she also played several instruments.
We may be offline for a few days, in attendance...just waiting to hear.
Her real name was Ladonna Day.

(In regards to the passing of 'Donna Summers').

GfS


P.S. IF, in the course of trying to answer those earlier questions, instead of choking on them, THINK it through...Oh, and Don and Bobert, Compromise?????? You were relating to policy, not integrity, weren't you???? ....because there was a LOT of bribing with waivers to get their vote!!
Funny, how those who voted FOR it, admit they never read it...and those who actually read it, were opposed to it....including Dennis Kucinich!!!!!!
I guess the bevy of parrots know better!...after all, THAT'S what they were TOLD!
Gullible saps!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 12 - 08:14 AM

Ted Kennedy said, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good", GfinS...

This apparently is not in your DNA make-up to understand... That seems to be a common trait that is running thru the entire Republican Party as it purges anyone who might find "compromise" acceptable as a means of moving forward... This "take no prisoners" attitude by you and yer Tea-buds isn't at all American in nature... It is authoritarian... America is what it is because of compromise... Yes, it can get messy but like they say, "it might be messy but its working better than anything else"...

Integrity, if defined narrowly, isn't helpful... Integrity is having the courage to accept other folks different opinions and try to find "common ground" and not "killing fields"... That's the part of American history that has worked for the nation... When we don't go that route then we don't do very well... Think 1861... Think 2011 when for strictly authoritarian principles your party pushed a rather mundane house-keeping act of raising the debt ceiling into the country's first credit downgrade in history...

No, GfinS... You are not one to lecture Don or me about integrity... We have each been on the front lines participating in the democratic process and we have done what we could when we could but...

...we are not the dictatorial authoritarians that we hear from your side of divide...

Obama offered $3 in cuts for $1 in revenue... That's what compromise looks like... Your side's answer: "No thanks... We want to win everything"... Sounds like 1860 thinking to me... Sounds like the brown-shirts in the 30s... Yes, you can argue "That's what integrity looks like"... Well, in the words of Dr. Phil, "How'd that brand of integrity work out for ya'll???'

BG~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 12 - 12:26 PM

Bobert: "This apparently is not in your DNA make-up to understand..."

"...This "take no prisoners" attitude by you and yer Tea-buds isn't at all American in nature.."
" That seems to be a common trait that is running thru the entire Republican Party as ...

" .....We have each been on the front lines participating in the democratic process and we have done what we could when we could but...

"Ted Kennedy said, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good", GfinS..."


You are the one who can't seem to get it through your thick skull!!!!What COMPLETE Brainlock!! I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN NOR a TEA PARTIER!!!!!! How many fucking times do you have to told that?????....unless..."'This apparently is not in your DNA make-up to understand...'"

So get off your taliking points aimed at the 'right'... you are aiming in the wrong direction....(not that you care)..........

That's what happens when you're a one trick pony!

GfS







BG~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 12 - 12:51 PM

Get off your TeaPub talking points and you won't get called on 'um, GfinS...

You would be amazed on just how much tea you have and continue to pour on Mudcat... Enough to sink an aircraft carrier...

If you don't realize it then maybe you just ain't paying attention...

Hate Obama??? Check...

Hate the fed??? check...

Hate what TeaPubs refer to as Obamacare??? Check...

Parrot the "both sides" PR lie??? Check...

Want our country back??? Check...

Freedom??? Check...

Check, check and more checks...

Like I've p[ointed out, "If it it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"...

You can deny as much as you like but the proof is in the pudding...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 12 - 01:56 PM

Bobert: "Hate Obama??? Check..."

Hate the fed??? check...(Hate?????....more like audit and tax the Fed!)

"Hate what TeaPubs refer to as Obamacare??? Check..."(more than Tea Partiers refer to "Affordable Health Care" as 'Obamacare'..also the Democratic party uses the name 'Affordable'..which it is clearly NOT!)

Parrot the "both sides" PR lie??? Check..." ( I believe our WHOLE of the body politic, including the Republicans are a HUGE problem, due to corruption, from your banking buddie's corrupt influence peddling).

Want our country back??? Check..."(When did I use that term???...but while we're at it, I WOULD like it pulled back from the corruption ridden parties, that are doing the bankster's bidding!!

Freedom??? Check..."(What??..You don't want freedom????..I guess a lot of our boys died in vain, huh?....Oh, I forgot, so-called liberals would trade their freedom for a 'free handout', that we cannot continue to afford).


Check, check and more checks...

Like I've p[ointed out, "If it it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"...(...ask any turkey!...BTW Look at this last statement...'p[ointed out'???........get a grip on yourself!

Now, Oh wise one....you never answered my question, about the FAILURE of Bill Clinton's option to veto a bill, that was CLEARLY to fuck over us, and give the bankers HUGE profits...at the expense of the world economy...Like to give it a whirl???....or are you going to choke on that one, too??

...and furthermore, give me some CONVINCING rap, on WHY I should back ANY political party, that DOES NOT represent the will of the people, nor my moral standards!!..but pushes through fraudulent agendas, using corrupt and deceptive tricks....Iran-Contra, the 'war on Iraq, up to, and including 'Fast and furious'..I'm sure you must have a rationale for that!

..but first, let's do the Clinton endorsement of the repeal of Glass-Steagall.....and explain to me why should I back, or believe in a party, either that fucking corrupt, or stupid!

Your ball.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 May 12 - 02:47 PM

And your viable alternative is. . . ?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 12 - 03:26 PM

Not to vote or support corrupt or stupid politicians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 May 12 - 03:46 PM

So, in short, sit on your butt and do nothing?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 12 - 05:52 PM

Nothing????..You mean, that even you, are saying that there are NO honest, competent people out there who are willing to serve their country, in a fair, honest and Constitutional way?? ..and if there are none, they are not in either one of the major parties????

You sound more like me, now...except I haven't given up all hope...yet......that's why I still write music...maybe it can reach the hearts of people, and awaken SOMETHING good.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 12 - 05:58 PM

Oh, we're back to Clinton???

Strange considering this is about the Affordable Care Act but...

... yeah, Clinton could have vetoed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley but several factors were in place:

1. Clinton wasn't and still ain't a liberal Democrat... He was more of a Nixon Republican...

2. He was coming off the Lewinski scandal which had set him back politically meaning he had no political capital...

and

3. Citicorp threw t6he BIG $$$, like $300M in lobbyist $$$ at thee bill...

Thems were the realities on the ground when the bill hit Clinton's desk... Google it every which way to Sunday and that's the story...

So what???

My telling you, GfinS, basic history ain't no Holy Grail, no smoking gun... Who cares??? How does this relate to this discussion... I mean, you might as well be asking me what position I played in baseball as a kid or the first girl I kissed??? Makes about as much sense as your question...

Oh, and 400...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 12 - 05:59 PM

..or 401...

Later...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 May 12 - 06:27 PM

You really need to take a remedial reading course, GoofuS. That's not what I said at all! As I have said in previous posts, I personally know a number of politicians, local, state, and national, who are honest and competent. Not just that, but who have displayed truly admirable personal integrity when they were under a great deal of pressure to do otherwise.

I have also met people in politics who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. And I DO know the difference.

Do you? Not so I've noticed!

But don't worry, GoofuS. Bobert and I, the Transcontinental Dynamic Duo, will save your sorry ass for you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 12 - 07:06 PM

Back in the 60s there were a lot of folks who tried to act cool so they could get laid and get stoned but graduated (or not), cut their hair and went right into being part of the folks that months before they said were the problem...

In surfing we called them ho-dads...

Phonies...

I have figured out that GfinS is much like those folks... It's easier to bitch and complain than to do the heavy lifting of keeping up with what is really going down and offering ideas...All I've heard is TeaPub talking points and cute-lite insults and put-downs of folks who do do the heavy lifting... In this case, the Transcontinental Dynamic Duo (I like that, Don - has a nice ring to it)...

But back to the Affordable Care Act...

Hey, GfinS... I'm not looking for a "2000 page" answer... Just give us an overview of your alternative....

(That, Boberdz, will never happen... Give up...)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 May 12 - 12:12 AM

Here we go again!!.....Start with the character slurs, when you have NOTHING salient for a discussion('liberal' tactic #2-b)....come on guys, get real will ya'. This country is on the brink, and you're still playing stupid 'gotcha games'....and not doing very well at it. Sounds like desperation to me!

Oh, and Bobert: (just gotta fuck with ya'....)

"Oh, we're back to Clinton???..."

Yeah, he is one of your sacred Democrat crackpots!

"Strange considering this is about the Affordable Care Act but..."

Well actually it's a lot more than that. Obamacare is part of a set-up, that has been part of some stuff that has been in the making for several consecutive administrations....hope that doesn't shock you!

... yeah, Clinton could have vetoed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley but several factors were in place:

"1. Clinton wasn't and still ain't a liberal Democrat... He was more of a Nixon Republican..."

Every administration, since November 22, 1963 have been of the same ilk....get past the party shit!

"2. He was coming off the Lewinski scandal which had set him back politically meaning he had no political capital..."

That's a cop out, if I ever heard one. JFK was fucking Marylin Monroe and he could still face down the Russians... your Billy Bob Clinton gets a blowjob from a fat ugly chick, and signs off the financial future of his country, while bombing an aspirin factory in Africa???!!!???.....and you voted for him, didn't ya'????
Now I'm supposed to trust YOUR judgments and wisdom?????

and

"3. Citicorp threw t6he BIG $$$, like $300M in lobbyist $$$ at thee bill..."

Were you trying to type something?

"Thems were the realities on the ground when the bill hit Clinton's desk... Google it every which way to Sunday and that's the story...'and you're stickin' to it'...(so the song goes).

"So what???"

Well, some people give a shit!..When you're on the dole, and a kept man, nothing is too important to you, except your opinion....that's all ya' got!

"My telling you, GfinS, basic history ain't no Holy Grail, no smoking gun... Who cares???"

See above.

"How does this relate to this discussion... I mean, you might as well be asking me what position I played in baseball as a kid or the first girl I kissed??? Makes about as much sense as your question..."

Maybe you should try connecting the dots, instead of wondering what position you were in while kissing the base of your girlfriends balls.

(Couldn't resist that one!)

Just put the WHOLE picture together..think PAST the two party illusion, and you might get a flash!

Don might even 'get it'.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:01 AM

No, connect the dots for me, insane one...

Where's your plan???

Huh???

Where's your plan???

Time is up...

Where's the plan???

(There ain't no plan, Boberdz... Just mindless free association tin-foil ramblings by someone who suffers from Aspergers Syndrome and not able to follow a conversation so changes the subject...)

You think, anon???

(No, Boberdz... I know...)

Hmmmmmmm??? Does kinda explain a lot of the bad disconnection...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:28 AM

Bobert: "Where's your plan???
Time is up...
Where's the plan???"

Hey, I'm not a fucking food stamp office! When I'm done, I'm done!!...But, so far, I have formed some opinions.

Maybe if your Democratic 'representatives?' would have read it, it might have even taken longer!..but why read it, when you can get bribed for your vote!???

See ya' on the other thread....then I got a plane to catch...probably have it finished when I get back.

Jeez!..another pushy pushy, 'gimme it NOW!!', so called 'liberal' wannabe!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:34 AM

Ramble on, insane one... Ramble on...

BTW, they have designer tin-foil hats out... Have you checked them out???

Never mind... Just sit down with a pitcher of Tea, lean back and have you a great hate ____________ (fill in your boogie man de joir) day...

I'm off to a festival myself...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 May 12 - 04:03 PM

SHEESH!! He's got NUTHIN!!!

Quelle suprise!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 12 - 05:47 PM

Actually, "Nothing" might be giving GfinS the *benefit* of the doubt... Could be on the underside of nothin'...

Awwwww, just funnin"... I'm sure that it's nothin' short of nothin'...

B:~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:38 PM

I really didn't think GoofuS would be so evasive as to take a plane out of town in order to avoid answering a straight question, but—looks like!

Anyway. . . .

On the 22nd of April, 2012 at 11:26 a.m. Mudcat time, and on this thread, GoofuS said:   "The fact is, WE cannot afford a giant, intrusive government, whose operating costs (including bribes), can be sustained by a shrinking economy, due to the reckless disregard, to the private sector...WHICH PAYS THE BILL!"

Goofus is not generally given to clear statements and this one is pretty muddy as usual, but THAT looks like a clear statement of the Republican, Right Wing, Tea Party, Ayn Rand political position.

Goofus, you've been tumbled! You have stated you position.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:52 PM

Yup, Tea, Tea and more Tea... All the while SCREAMING, "I'm not one of them!!!"

Hahahahaha...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 May 12 - 09:13 PM

Bobert:

"Saws is a troll... Nothin' new here"

Bobert:
"Enough, let me go on over there, light a stink bomb and skeee-adddle"

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 09:18 PM

Gotta love ya', Sawz...

You are such a freaky person... I mean, out there...

You have these little OCD things that you and Betty Ford's people have been trying to work out and you do really well and then...

...you fall off the wagon...

Call 1-800-BETFORD... Your counselor has already called me and told me that you went over the wall... They are worried...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 May 12 - 10:58 PM

Like I said Bobert It's buzzed up boozed up folks who say freaky stuff like this that need Betty Ford:

"I first started going over there I'd mess with em' [troll] and they'd get all upset and jump up an' down but these days they they ignore me like I'm Casper, 'er something. But I still drop by and mess with 'em jus' fir fun."

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:34 AM

Problem is that the "mandates" made the insurance companies richer at the expense of
universal health care. Obama copped out.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 12 - 02:45 PM

This is off the subject, but I just wanted to be sure that GoofuS sees THIS when (and IF) he comes back.

Ake should take a good look at it too.

Now, back to our regular broadcast. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: saulgoldie
Date: 21 May 12 - 03:02 PM

Thread aside: Why do youse guys even bother with the trolls? They offer no wisdom, no facts, no cogent argument. They only offer hostility and invective. And they mostly don't even offer anything of musical interest above the line. That is trollism, if they ever was such.

Are you hoping that if you keep at it that eventually they will somehow find their "good side" and leave their "dark side?" Maybe there is something here that I just don't get??

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 12 - 03:17 PM

Lemme relate a story that my mom loves to tell, Saul...

When I was a kid I had a dough-nut route... What that meant was a territory and once a week my distributor would meet me at a specified spot with 30 or so 1-dozen box of dough-nuts and I would knock on doors, sell them and make a couple three bucks in a couple three hours...

There was this one house on my route where the people always said, "No" and one night after my route I was telling my folks about my day and this one house came up in the conversation... So my mom asked, "If they never buy from you why do you bother knocking on their door every week?" to which I replied...

..."well, one day they may change their mind..."

Guess I'm like Don's doc in the link above in that people, if given enough time and facts, ***can** change their minds...

BTW, Saul... I purdy much ignore Sawz because, well, he has a mental condition and is obsessed with me and I don't think it's helpful for him for me to play into his problems...

GfinS, on the other hand, is at least entertaining and works hard on the insults... Of course, GfinS wouldn't admit it but, hey???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: saulgoldie
Date: 21 May 12 - 03:25 PM

OK, Bobster. Thanks. I geddit. Carry on (not that you needed my permission)...

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 May 12 - 03:52 PM

What Bobert hasn't said but I will is that he has a head harder than Ayer's Rock, no offense, Bobster.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 12 - 04:32 PM

For my part, I find Goofus to be a useful sparring partner. Let me put it this way:   I used to fence.

Note of explanation here. How could I fence if I had polio when I was two years old and walked with a leg brace and aluminum forearm crutches? One evening when I was fourteen years old, after overdosing on novels by Rafael Sabatini (Scaramouche, Captain Blood, The Black Swan) and Errol Flynn swashbucklers (some of which were based on Sabatini's novels), I dropped in on a fencing class at the local YMCA to watch some real, modern fencing as contrasted with the choreographed stuff in the movies. When I told the instructor, Katherine Modrell, who was Pacific International Women's Open Champion at the time, that I would love to be able to fence, but obviously it was impossible, she said, "Well, wait a minute. Let's see what you can do."

It turned out that I could stand in an approximation of the "on guard" position with a foil in one hand and a crutch in the other. I couldn't run up and down the strip or lunge, but Katherine reasoned that, with a strong defense and a fast riposte, I might do quite well. We tried it.

The result was that I would never win any Olympic medals, but I DID fence in tournaments regularly for a good fifteen years. By the way, these were regular competitions for able-bodied fencers, not a "Special Olympics" kind of thing. I didn't win any first place medals or trophies, but I do have a nice collection of seconds and thirds. Plus, I was considered by very good fencers as "downright dangerous. Don't underestimate him!" And I had one helluva lot of fun!

Thank you, Katherine Modrell!!

Okay!

I found that many fencers who were relative beginners or just not very good (didn't fence with their brains in gear) made good practice partners. They would attack with a great deal of ferocity, against which I could practice various combinations of parries, followed by a rapid and accurate riposte. Some of them got most upset because this guy leaning on a crutch, for God's sake, should have been a push-over. But they couldn't touch me, and fencing with them and practicing defensive tactics with rapid ripostes and counter-attacks gave me an opportunity to hone my swordsmanship skills. Sort of like practicing scales.

This kind of practice stood me in good stead when, in tournaments, I came up against really good, strong fencers.

It I take GoofuS's ill-thought-out and generally uncoordinated sallys as if they were serious and practice countering them, then when, in real life, I come up against a hard-charging Right Wing liberal-hater, I've already encountered most of the pokes and jabs they're coming off with and I'm well practiced in countering them and responding with highly accurate thrusts of facts and data.

Oh! By the way! Thanks, GoofuS, for the practice.

Touché! and all that old stuff.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:22 PM

Actually Saul is one of the few "trolls" on this forum.
He rarely has anything of value to say on any subject, other than a few cut and pastes to support his view.
His main MO is to make snide remarks and contrive to stir the shit at every opportunity.
Those whom he labels "trolls"....which is code for anyone who disagrees with the popular line, at least make an effort to explain their position, no matter how daft it may be. Saul makes no attempt to debate with anyone, but relies on mud slinging.....possibly because he has fuck all to form ideas with.

Bobert is a genuine good guy who wears his heart on his sleeve, I think he knows the system is rotten and not fit for purpose, but he has invested a lifetime....as I have, fighting against injustice and just cant bear to look backwards on all these wasted years, so just keeps on keeping on like the good soldier that he is.

Don I'm afraid has committed the cardinal sin in my book of telling untruths and misrepresentation of other member's posts on an internet forum......a hanging offence normally, but in this case i have banished him to Room 101(Orwell), where he may amuse himself with other like minded creatures(John P, Lox,cant remember the other one.

Bruce is my best cyber friend, kindness personified, open minded and open hearted, has the skill to put his ideas across without being needlessly hurtful....how I wish i could be more like him.

Saws, Sanity, little Hawk and a few others not contributing here, are
the people who put some oomph!!!! into this forum, they make it interesting and alive......wouldn't it be hellish if we all agreed with one another ALL of the time?

So its actually quite easy to spot a "troll", they cant really be bothered to formulate any contribution to the debate and are always accompanied by the smell of shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 12 - 06:26 PM

"...telling untruths and misrepresentation of other member's posts on an internet forum...."

Examples, please.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:37 PM

Better watch yer back, Ake... Don might come crashing thru yer window with foil in hand and carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey...

Don, however, ain't into fiction... He is who he says he is... His positions are well thought out... And he and I have more than our politics in common: polio... I faired better but was told I might not walk unassisted again... Tell ya what, Ake ol' buddy... When yer young and you have polio it gives you - no, makes you - deal with life that children aren't supposed to understand... They say that our brains aren't developed enough... Polio survivors know differently... No, maybe polio didn't push the hormone thing that kicks in at 13 or so but it does open up a lot of thoughts about life in general and our purpose... Purdy heady stuff for kids...

I understand that... No, Don ain't gonna lie to ya'... He will, however, bite, kick, scratch and do whatever he thinks will work... That's the nature of all of us polio survivors... We learned this early and it's now part of each and every one of us...

Square business...

Now, in Don's words, "Back to the regularly scheduled program"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 12 - 02:33 PM

Hi Bob of course its sad about the Polio, a couple of my primary school friends contracted it and survived, but i doubt if it has made them any more insightful than the next guy.
I, several years ago survived an horrific car accident in which i was almost crushed to death in slow motion, but I dont expect anybody here to treat me any better than they do because of that.

Here we are largely anonymous, no women, no men, no rich, no poor,no sick, no healthy.

We are what we write, and we can easily spot the ones with a real interest in debate, from those who just want to make mischief.

I have only 2 rules for this forum, that I and those that I correspond with, tell the truth to the best of our ability and do not try to misrepresent what our correspondent has written.

I think that it is senseless to attempt debate with anyone who does not observe these rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 May 12 - 04:43 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Bobert!

And Ake, I agree with what you said in your last post.

I was not able to go to public school early on. So the local school district sent "home teachers" two or three times a week, who would give me individual tutoring on various subjects, along with homework assignments. A lot of individual attention. As a kid, I was an avid reader, reading just about anything I could get my hands on, including going systematically through a set of encyclopedia. I had playmates in the neighborhood, but during the hours that they were in school, I had my nose in a book. I didn't go to public school until high school. Expecting to find myself behind the other kids, I learned, happily, that in certain areas I was way ahead! Including study habits.

I'm a careful reader. Indeed, as I have mentioned before, I worked for a time as a technical writer and editor, often trying to unravel what is really being said in, among other things, government documents, and translate it into understandable and meaningful English. Example of a typical government document circumlocution:   "A mistake was made." Translation:   "Somebody blew it, but nobody is willing to take responsibility."

I might note that one person's fact is another person's "untruth." I can give you a long list of examples from this forum if you insist.   And one person's "misrepresentation" might be another person's honest interpretation of what someone else said—or wrote. And that misinterpretation might very well come from the manner in which the "misrepresented" statement was framed.

If you say what you mean in a clear, straightforward manner, there is less chance of it being misinterpreted or "misrepresented."

Case in point:   many of the things you have written make you sound very much like a Marxist revolutionist. If you are not, then I suggest that you make clear what you are really trying to say.

I would make the same suggestion to GoofuS, but I think he's beyond help.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 May 12 - 11:39 PM

Screw the health care plan. I am still waiting for the promised eye opening revelations about the psychology of being gay. The counselor promised those to us about two years ago. Zero, zip, nadah. Sorry, memory of an elephant Cecil...I mean lansing...oh never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 12 - 07:38 AM

Still working on the details, I'm sure...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 May 12 - 11:00 AM

Bobert the shrink:

"I don't think it's helpful for him for me to play into his problems"

"he has a mental condition"

Bobert the Troll:

"Then I sneak out to Mudcat when them's is asleep and light stink bombs here in the Catbox... I know I shouldn't do it but "

Ya see, Bobert does exactly what he falsely claims other people do and that it is wrong when they do it.

"I know I shouldn't do it" tells us "he knows it is wrong and he shouldn't do it. The "but" tells us he cannot stop his self. He cannot control his OCD, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, a mental condition.

The only way he can relieve his distress and feelings of guilt is to project his admitted stinkbombing behavior on someone else.

Like his "facts". When confronted with the fact that his "facts" are not factual, he claims the person disproving his "facts" does not present any facts.

This is nothing personal, just an observation. Bobert is apparently a good guy with good intentions but he is just misguided by his inability to distinguish facts from spin.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 12 - 01:53 PM

Julius Sawzaw is a fine one to accuse people of throwing stink bombs. This thread, started by him, opened with a stink bomb.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:03 PM

Sorry, Saws...

Call your counselor...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:04 PM

And what would you call his LAST little bon mot, if not a "stink bomb??"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:32 PM

Referring to Sawz's last post, to be abundantly clear.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 May 12 - 04:40 PM

Ake, your remark brought a few tears to me eyes. Thank you. I have pm'ed you. RSVP, buddy, to either here or the e-mail address.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 23 May 12 - 11:07 PM

You know, GfS also suffers from a severe affliction. He has craniorectal inversion. It really has a big effect on his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: saulgoldie
Date: 24 May 12 - 07:56 AM

"Craniorectal inversion" I have been using that expression for years. I thought I wrote it. Great to hear it used by someone else!

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 12 - 04:52 PM

See what I mean?

"Craniorectal inversion"...............smell it?

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 24 May 12 - 06:31 PM

Be careful, Akenaton. You have written so many offensive posts on this site that you sound like the pot calling the kettle black. If it were worth the time I could copy and paste pages of your inappropriate and untrue insults. At least my comment was a joke. And true, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 12 - 12:28 AM

Saul Goldilocks: "Craniorectal inversion" I have been using that expression for years. I thought I wrote it. Great to hear it used by someone else!"

John P: "You know, GfS also suffers from a severe affliction. He has craniorectal inversion. It really has a big effect on his life."

Absolutely pathetic, in lieu of an intelligent discussion...but that is so indicative of these two nutcases....so I guess, if I want any shit from you two, I'll just squeeze your heads!

..and Don, you used to fence?....and all this time when you had a foil in your hands I thought you just adjusting your hat size!

Just got in...read the posts..will comment on them, and to shorten the typing time, I'll address this on briefly...Don, your link, that you thought was so earth shattering, and your 'touche'...you might mean 'douche'...I addressed that shit a LONG time ago, and you even commented on my post...let me 're-freshen' your memory, in case the 'douche' won't wash....I posted that in the mid '70's that the studies about homosexuality were going through some academic 'changes'..(depending on the funding, for the desired results)..that was when they were 'replacing' science with the more politically correct horseshit about in being genetic...then the study of genetics improved, since then and behold, they couldn't find that magical gene. YOU even posted a link, in which was done by a homosexual PhD, who also, (if you actually would have READ the whole article, stated that they could not find the gene either...this is not anything new, or earth shattering..maybe to you...but you seemed not to flash, yet, that truth is rarely 'politically correct'!~....I'm glad you liked to fence, did it a couple of times myself, but I thought Sumo wrestling would be more your speed...being as your knickers are always in a twist!....(Hey, glad to provide you both entertainment and a challenge.....when are you going to return the favor?)

Oh, and based on those 'old studies' that tried to be replaced with the new nonsense, TIA is another example of displaying classic symptoms, and providing a living example of EXACTLY what they have been saying....which I've been chomping at the bit to address...but I just got in...and need to settle in...I WILL address it...WITH great enthusiasm!!...but it won't listen, so, I'll suggest you 'cut and paste' it to your mirror, and read it occasionally...and as it starts to sink in, you can start to stop bull-sitting yourself...!!

As to Obamacare, I will post on that, but not in this post..I just got back....I'll cover all the bases.

Akenaton, Thanks for the kind words.....!! ...or should I say, 'TRUE words!!

Guest, 999....good post as well..(ooops wrong thread)....

Good night.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 May 12 - 01:30 AM

Of course, the one item that doesn't get mentioned, is that the Dems could have passed anything they wished to in 2008, by simply changing the filibuster rule on the first day the Senate was in session, and getting rid of that ghastly super-majority bullshit.
The GOP doesn't own all the assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 May 12 - 09:19 AM

Akenaton: Please check your personal messages on Mudcat.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 12 - 10:07 AM

Me thinks that polymorphous perversity has come back stronger than ever...

What ever happened to that health care plan, GfinS???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 25 May 12 - 10:18 AM

Absolutely pathetic, in lieu of an intelligent discussion...

GfS, my offer stands: a moderated debate where logic has to make sense, personal insults get you thrown out, and all facts come from mainstream news sources. And where you actually have to support what you say when its fallacies are pointed out to you. Put up or shut up about intelligent discussion. While you're at it, learn to take a joke.

You, too, Akenaton: Let's have a real debate on the subject of civil rights for gay people. I agree with your list of internet discussion irritants, although not with your assessment of me in that regard. I would add two more irritants: people who enter discussions, make unsupported statements, refuse to support them, and then wait a day or so and make the same statement all over again. Thread hijackers. Like you. The second is people who claim that everyone who disagrees with them is a member of a brain-washed herd who can't think for themselves. Like you do. If you can't maintain a debate that you start and won't deal with other people as individuals, you are just a waste of everyone else's time. Put up or shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 12 - 10:26 AM

John Pee: "GfS, my offer stands: a moderated debate where logic has to make sense...."

Are you forfeiting already???????


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 May 12 - 11:14 AM

So Bobert is saying that even though he admits to lighting stink bombs and that he shouldn't do it but can't help himself, someone else is at fault? Someone else is lighting stink bombs and has OCD.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Sounds like another Bobert "fact" like 2263 sq mi is no bigger than 68.2 square miles.

I would like to know if his health care costs have gone down under the "Affordable Health Care Act"

But he will only respond with hostile personal attacks.

He attacks me first and then claims I have some sort of OCD when I respond.

"hate Brigade"? That is Bobert's projection on me. When have I ever said I hate anything? Anybody here know when? Since when is the posting facts a hate thing? Does Bobert hate facts?

Bobert is the one who claims other people hate this or that, his opinion, his spin, and then states over and over that he hates this or that.

Bobert is the hater of things and the bully but then he projects that on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 12 - 11:22 AM

Sawzaw: "Bobert is the hater of things and the bully but then he projects that on others."

He ain't the only one, either!!!
Just look at the posts of all those 'other' 'so-called' liberals' who are no more 'liberal' than Hitler or Charles Manson!!

These are the same nitwits who think a totalitarian state is the answer to all of life's mysterious questions!!

Personally, I'd rather 'the state' get out of everyone's personal business..unless requested by that same person!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 12 - 11:54 AM

Wow!!!

Three posts in a row by GfsawS and not one on the subject of this thread...

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 12 - 12:39 PM

Yeah, Bobert - all you need is Bearded Bruce in here slinging name-calling shit and this thread will close for sure.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 12 - 12:58 PM

Well, that is the TeaStrategy... This is what the goons did at the Town Hall meetings and that's what the NRA does and thats what the 3 blind mice do here... The correct term is subterfuge... Anything but discuss the topic...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 May 12 - 01:30 PM

"Anything but discuss the topic.."

"The blues??? Different story... Ain't no delicious blues songs... None!!! But I like the blues more than I like delicious music...

As for the fear and loathing assertion... Very pathetic... I neither fear or loathe you... Musically, I respect you... Politically, I feel sorry for you... You don't seem to want to learn anything new and you parrot right wing bumper sticker policy positions...

Do you have any idea what the $5T in new deficits is about??? Maybe if you were better read you'd understand that 100% of these deficits were back end boobie traps in Bush's budgets... Economists predicted them down to 5% going back to 2006... Jesus as President and Oral Roberts as VP couldn't have changed them...

See, I mean when you are trying to have a logical discussion with someone who, frankly, hasn't kept up over the years then what you get is exactly waht we get from you, GfinS: right winged Republican propaganda..."

Again, Bobert projects what he does onto others.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 May 12 - 01:46 PM

This thread has gone completely wall-eyed. Focusses on everything but the subject. And who's fault is that?

I note that GoofuS is still dodging the issue and ladling posts out of the cesspool of his mind by indulging in such brilliant sallies as referring to John P. (a musician of considerable stature and an intelligent and thoughtful person whom I have somehow not yet met, although we both live in the same city) as "John Pee," and taking my post-ending "Touché!" and, out of the common currency of his thought processes, coming up with "douche."

If he could ever get his head out of his obsession with crotches, he probably still wouldn't be able to come up with a cogent thought.

A waste of bandwidth authored by a waste of protoplasm.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: John P
Date: 25 May 12 - 02:45 PM

GfS, my offer stands: a moderated debate where logic has to make sense, personal insults get you thrown out, all facts come from mainstream news sources, and where you actually have to support what you say when your fallacies are pointed out to you.

Until you are willing to engage in a real debate, you have nothing worthwhile to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 12 - 07:23 PM

These people won't debate policy, John... They don't understand it so they just go into their default positions of attacking the folks who have all along been talking policy...

I guess we have reached the end of another discussion with the accusers hiding in the bushes and lobbing insults...

Normal...

Yawn...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 May 12 - 09:41 PM

For nearly 50,000,000 people, it's a new day. Take that away and America will see a revolution like never before. I think even the 'dumbing down' by TV will not be able to halt it. There is always a point at which people say, "This far and no further!"

A key point in negotiation (and fighting ) is NEVER give up anything you've gained unless by doing so you will gain something greater.

I'd let GfS digest the act and its assorted footnotes and ask him when he finishes digesting said--what he's read. This shit ain't going away. There is present;y no hurry, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 12 - 09:55 PM

Best post I ever read by ya, brucie...

They say they don't like what Obama has cobbled together under the most difficult circumstances since 1860 in this country then put up or...

...shut up!!!

GfinS ain't gonna do no heavy lifting here... I would bet not only my farm but every farm in the universe that GfinS has shot yet another wad... There ain't no hiding... There ain't a lot of fixes here...

What we got was all that was there for the getting... Does it fix our health care problems??? Probably not but it is a start... The longest journey starts with a single step... So we've taken the first step toward copying other countries that have figured out health care??? Great... Step in the right direction...

Going back is like going back to slavery... That's what GfinS and his buds don't get... Why do they want America to fail???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 12 - 11:12 PM

Sawzaw: "See, I mean when you are trying to have a logical discussion with someone who, frankly, hasn't kept up over the years then what you get is exactly waht we get from you, GfinS: right winged Republican propaganda..."


What???...are you quoting Bobert??

..and guys, I've been out all day...as far as the RUSH to instantly post my observations on the bill...Which I WILL do...how come, Bobert, you don't demand the same from yourself, when Sawzaw, posts a link, and wants YOUR response...that you have become famous for, in ducking and weaving??!!??..Same with mine!!...You just go anywhere, but answering OUR questions, then pose MY response, and DEMAND that it fits YOUR time table!!...It don't work that way!...nor will my post just take a few minutes to prepare...but it's all fine, when you want to shine on others seeking YOUR response..that usually you CAN'T respond to, because you haven't done your homework to know know jack diddly squat.
I have TWO responses to lay down, one for Bobert and one for TIA....and no matter how accurate they are, you're just chomping at the bit to throw your stupid-ass talking points at them.....SO, to be fair, I will make them so IF you disagree, which is fine, at least they will be accurate, and NOT propagandized!...(You won't recognize that!).
I have absolutely NO reason to bullshit you one way or another...I find that both the right and left wings are mere puppets of the guys pulling the strings BEHIND the curtain....YOU are the dupes that believe the act on stage. I DON'T!...So I have NO agenda to put forth.

What's that????...Which way did he go?..Which way did he go??

..and next time, when someone asks a response of you, I hope you remember this thread, and why a LOT of people don't take you seriously.

..as for Don, he just makes stuff up, by putting words in people's mouths, and then arguing those words!!

..and John Pee....you should NEVER accuse others of the vindictiveness that you spout off. This must be one of the first posts you've done, that didn't go off with one of your wannabe insult rants!....People like you(plural) only do that because you ain't got shit to say!...and are just waiting for those who do, to give you an original thought...problem is, those original thoughts, ain't yours!

Psychic vampires need a host to feed off of.

Now when I'm damn good and ready, I'll post it....and if I didn't need to swat some Mudcat gnats, we could have used THIS post to start!

No insults in the above, just a direct answer....can you handle it?


Stop diverting, and let me lay it down...OK?....because if I have to address this bullshit again, YOU are the ones making it take longer..capice?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 May 12 - 12:20 AM

Standard troll tactic to avoid having to give a straight answer to a simple question. Be abusive and accuse others of not responding to HIS questions when he hasn't asked any questions, at least any that make any kind of sense. He's a somewhat less than "Artful Dodger."

As I keep saying, he's got NUTHIN'!!

GoofuS in action!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 12 - 01:10 AM

You just proved my point...AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STFU!

GfS