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BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc
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Subject: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Sawzaw Date: 22 Apr 12 - 08:39 AM Democrats Are Jumping Ship Investors Business Daily 04/20/2012 Perhaps Democrats know something the rest of us don't about Barack Obama's political fortunes. What else explains the increasing numbers who are openly defying the president on two key election issues? The notoriously thin-skinned Obama could not have been happy with the news last week that, as the Hill newspaper put it, "an increasing number of Democrats are taking potshots at President Obama's health care law." North Carolina's Brad Miller, who voted for the law, now laments that "we would all have been better off" if Congress had dealt with more pressing issues "and then came back to health care." Barney Frank complained that the Democrats "paid a terrible price for health care." And Virginia's outgoing Sen. Jim Webb said the law would be Obama's "biggest downside" in the election and had cost him "a lot of credibility as a leader." Meanwhile, stalwart Massachusetts liberal Elizabeth Warren is now calling to repeal a piece of ObamaCare — the 2.3% tax on medical devices — because, she says, it "disproportionately impacts the small companies with the narrowest financial margins." Warren, by the way, is running for the Senate seat occupied by Republican Scott Brown, whose victory in 2010 was a result of the public's intense opposition to ObamaCare. Former Alabama Rep. Artur Davis went furthest. "I think the Affordable Care Act is the single least popular piece of major domestic legislation in the last 70 years," he said. "It was not popular when it passed; it's less popular now." Ouch. These Democrats are no doubt familiar with polls that show surprisingly little support for ObamaCare within their ranks. Fewer than half of Democrats think the government should be able to force individuals to buy insurance — the core element of ObamaCare — according to the latest IBD/TIPP poll. Only a little more than a third say the Supreme Court should "uphold the entire law." mp3Subscribe to the IBD Editorials Podcast The fact that they're willing to trash-talk Obama's single biggest legislative achievement suggests they're worried about something more than how the Supreme Court will rule. This fear is even more evident when you look at the growing opposition among Democrats to Obama's position on the Keystone XL pipeline. Obama may have thought he'd cleverly handled the issue by putting it off until next year, and that no one would think to defy his veto threats. But when Republicans called his bluff with a bill to force a start on construction, 69 Democrats rushed to join them, giving the House bill a veto-proof majority. The Senate bill is just a vote or two away from overcoming a Democratic filibuster. The importance of this fight is huge. If Democrats defy him, it will severely undermine Obama's claim that he's pursuing an all-of-the-above energy strategy. Obama came to the White House claiming that he alone was qualified to unite the country behind common objectives. The fact that he's losing support from his own party on two of the most important issues of the day is significant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:05 AM Of course the Kucinich single-payer scheme would have been better, but no-one in their right mind could want to continue the traditional US free-for-all under which "living was a thing that money could buy" ( a quote from "All my trials"). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Arkie Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:39 AM The cost of medical care in the United States rose over 100 per cent over a ten year and continued to rise in the next decade. The country's standing in quality of medical care dropped to where there were 30 or more countries ranking higher. And medical care had reached a point where it was no longer affordable for working families. In my small town, I know of one young man who was working two jobs who had to file for bankruptcy because he could not pay the bill for his wife's illness. And his case was not the only one. Something needed to be done before more young people and elders had to make serious choices between medical care and other necessities. Good things were accomplished with the health care plan established by the Obama administration in spite of all the efforts by Republicans to sabotage and misrepresent the effort. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:42 AM Unfortunately, the Affordable Care Act is all the Dems could get this time around... By 2024 we will have single payer but, as per usual, the reactionaries will do everything in the book to slow down progress because that is what they do... Same folks wanted to hang onto slavery, wouldn't ride in automobiles, think that immunizations are bad for you, don't believe that man ever flew to the moon... But the country has no choice but to fix health care and going back to what hasn't worked isn't a fix... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:03 AM Bobert: "Unfortunately, the Affordable Care Act is all the Dems could get this time around... By 2024 we will have single payer but...." NONSENSE!!!..Absolute NONSENSE!! They could have gone for anything they wanted...majority in the House and Senate, President who would sign it, plenty of bribes and waivers...jeez Bobert, you're whole premise is off! I mean, I guess it means NOTHING to you that the American public doesn't want it...BECAUSE of all the non-related medical shit that is in it..you know, those nasty 'little' pesky intrusions by the government and corporations. You DON'T seem to 'get it'..People DO NOT want government involved, and controlling EVERY aspect of their personal lives. This 'Affordable' (misleading cue word), has more to do with CONTROL rather than 'assisting' with health benefits. The 'affordable health' nonsense was just the bribe enticement..hoping to bribe your support. IT DIDN'T WORK! Get it?..... (nooo) GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:11 AM As per usual, GfinS, you once again have forgotten to take your memory pills... Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman, both Dems threatened early to not vote for anything that resembled single payer... Nelson was just a blue dog with more red than blue and Lieberman the recipient of big donations from the health insurance lobby... Go back and study your history because you are wrong as wrong can be on this one... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Guest freom Sanity Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:26 AM Bobert: "As per usual, GfinS, you once again have forgotten to take your memory pills..." You must have forgotten yours. Nelson was bribed, as was Kucinich. Single payer would have been 'better'. Obamacare has NOTHING to do with 'health'......you just can't bring yourself around to understand that, yet..and that's, too bad. The provision you speak of, was the enticement to portray benefits for the medical industry....but now as more pages are ADDED after it was passed, that fell through the floor, as well. This system is so wrought with deception and fraud, that certain parts need to be re-done, from the ground up. The fact is, WE cannot afford a giant, intrusive government, whose operating costs(including bribes), can be sustained by a shrinking economy, due to the reckless disregard, to the private sector...WHICH PAYS THE BILL! On the other hand, we also cannot afford reckless, and treasonous behavior of the private global mega-corporations, who use us as where they rent our military might, to accomplish their goals of greed. As far as the Democrats 'bailing out of Obamacare' I wish they would have displayed more balls when the shitty thing was being passed around! Yes! We need health care...but THIS bill should have NEVER seen the light of day! It SUCKS! ..and if this and other administrations had been doing their job, and not accepting payoffs, we would have 'affordable health care'...right from our own pockets!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Apr 12 - 12:19 PM What the USA needs is a socialized health care plan such as exists in Canada and in most of western Europe. The USA can't get that, however, because it has a public who have been so brainwashed all their lives by fear of socialism...that they are largely incapable of understanding the subject and have absolutely no idea how such a health care plan would work, why it would work, or really anything about it at all. Obama's so-called health care plan was anything BUT socialism. It was a huge giveaway to the private health care industry in the USA, enabling them to greatly increase their profits. Public health care shouldn't even have anything to do with profit! It should have to do with giving people needed medical care which should be a CIVIL RIGHT, not something someone profits from. Other civil rights are things like equal protection under the law...the right of free speech...the right to the religion of your choice (or none at all)...etc. How would you like it if you could only get police protection by paying the cops $5000 or more in cash any time you might happen to need them? Or how would you like it if your house caught on fire and the fire department said, "Oh, we'll send over our guys and put that fire out...IF you pay us $1,000 in cash when we get there, and write us out a check for another $10,000. The check better not bounce, either, cos if it does, we'll sue you and take your house and every cent you've got. Are we straight on that? Okay. Fine. The fire trucks are on the way." The reason the police and fire department will help you at present without acting as I have laid it out above is simply this: they are SOCIALIST institutions! They do what they do NOT to make a profit, but to meet a vital and immediate public need that has nothing to do with making a profit for anyone. They are funded through taxes. They treat everyone on an equal basis. No one has to pay them exorbitant fees up front to get their help in an emergency. That is how medical care should work. A medical problem is an emergency...NOT a chance for someone to make money! It should be funded on an equal basis by every adult citizen through their taxes, and NO one should have to pay one additional red cent to get medical help, because illness is an emergency, just like if your house is on fire or someone is robbing your house and you need the police to stop him. If everyone funds something on an equal basis, then everyone can easily afford what that costs...because most people AREN'T in need of medical care most of the time. So the cost to each person under a socialized system is affordable. Same as car insurance. Same as house insurance. Same as any kind of insurance. We all pay these things and spread out the cost that way so we can afford it....but only a few of us need to make an insurance claim in any given year...thus we can all afford the cost of such insurance, because it's spread around evenly through basically the whole population. The American public has been brainwashed for so long by the voices of private industry that they don't get this. That's incredible. But it's true. This amounts to a public which is simply beyond help, as far as I can see, because they are the prisoners of their own insane social mythology...and they don't even know what socialism is! The plan Obama brought in didn't even vaguely resemble socialism. It resembles a big give-away to profit-based private health care industries. And that's insane. You who are on the Right should be celebrating his wretched Obamacare. It's right up your alley, because it helps the rich in your society get richer. And if you don't get what I mean about that...well, here's an old article from back then which explains it quite clearly: The pure greed of Obama's phony health care reform Read it and weep! Look, get this: the rest of the world watches what happens in your so-called democracy and shudders with horror. And we can't do a thing about it, because the USA is the most heavily armed nation in the world, the most aggressive military power in the world, and no one can fucking well do a thing about it if the USA decides to invade some country, bomb it into ruins, and take it over. And no one can do a thing about it if a majority of Americans willingly consent to be enslaved by a corrupt oligarchy of wealthy corporates and bankers, and deluded by 2 utterly phony political parties, because they are too brainwashed to even know what's happening to them. This is what the world watches, rather like the world once watched in numb horror at what was happening in Germany in the late 30's. No one can protect you from yourselves. Hell, we can't even protect ourselves from what your government may do. But we hope to survive it. Note: My comments above are not necessarily directed at most individuals on Mudcat, and you should know that. You're mostly a group of leftist-folkie-intellectual types here. You do not at all represent the mainstream of social thought in the USA. My comments are directed at the USA society in a much more general sense...the common average attitude in the USA...and the common average of your society is living in a dream world where "socialism" is equated with dictatorial Communism of the worst sort. That's just a dream world. It has no connection with reality. So don't take what I said as being directed at YOU YOURSELF personally. It is not directed at you. It's directed at the common mainstream mentality of your nation, because that common mainstream is what goes along passively with supporting the status quo in the USA, and the status quo is about nothing but ensuring profits for the wealthiest few, keeping the rest of you enslaved, and achieving imperial conquest in the world outside your borders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Jack the Sailor Date: 22 Apr 12 - 01:15 PM I'm beginning to think that the real base of the Democratic Party are the people with functioning long term memories. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 22 Apr 12 - 01:23 PM Wrong again, GfinS... Nelson was bribed into what was finally passed, not single payer... Your statement that they could have gotten anything they wanted is not true... But don't let facts get in the way of your hate... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: kendall Date: 22 Apr 12 - 01:45 PM Tyhe only people I have heard say "The whole country does not want Obama care" are republicans, those who already have health insurance, and victims of right wing fear mongers. It's like some Americans who say, "Everyone wants to come here" That is also a crock of shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 22 Apr 12 - 03:16 PM Okay, a little personal note on ONE of the many things wrong with the health care (??) system in this country. I use a wheelchair. Due to polio at an early age, I walked with forearm crutches, but some years ago my shoulders gave out (the human shoulder is not built to locomote the way I had to). To get around the hilly neighborhood in which I live, and to travel any distance at all, I have a battery powered chair (sorta like THIS), in addition to the manual chair. The power chair cost over $6,500, about twice what I paid for my first car. My manual chair (lightweight, foldable "Quickie 2") cost over $2,000, although I can't see that it is any more complicated than a decent bicycle, which one could get for a quarter of the price. A repairman came out from the medical equipment store where I bought the power chair to make some adjustments on the joy stick controller unit, and we got to chatting. I asked him why durable medical equipment costs so bloody much, considering. He said, quite frankly, "It's because more often than not, the patient or client doesn't pay for it, insurance companies do. And frankly, they simply stick it to the insurance companies!" Duly noted. When my power chair needed a new set of batteries (2), I checked with the store that sold it to me and they told me they would cost about $150 apiece. After I stopped choking, I called my nephew, who worked for one of the local automotive supply stores. He came out, checked the batteries in the chair, and said, "They're standard marine batteries, the kind you would use if you had a power boat." Vroom vroom! "They should run about $75 apiece. I can get them for you wholesale, about $50, and I can install them for you." Which he did. That was some years ago. The batteries died a few months ago. So it was necessary to replace them. Tim has a different job now, so I figured, "Oh, what the hell! I'll get them from Care Medical and pay the exorbitant price!" But then, that's one of the things I have medical insurance for. The guy comes out, replaces the batteries, and I'm up and running again. Then the paperwork comes in. $700 is what they soaked the insurance company for the batteries!! Plus $60 for a service call! And now Care Medical wants a $105 co-pay from me! Something really stinks!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Apr 12 - 03:21 PM What Don said. The US medical system is broken - but Obama's moves were a small step in the right direction. You can't have a civilised society without healthcare. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 22 Apr 12 - 03:31 PM Amen to that!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 22 Apr 12 - 04:35 PM Yes, Richard, it is progress but not the solution... I finally made it to the Medicare "finish (start) line" this year and for the first time since I left my job as a social worker in '89 I have "real" health insurance and therefore... ...health care!!! One night I was doodling and figured that since '89 when I went into business for myself that I forked over right at $100,000 in premiums and then tried to think of what I got for it and all I could recall the insurance companies actually paying for was a shingles vaccine which cost them about $100... Other than that??? Nada, zero, zip... One part of the Affordable Care Act, that the insurance companies hate and why they gave some much money to Dick Armey (FreedomWorks) to organize and fund the Tea Party, is a provision that the participating insurance companies will pay out 85% for health care??? I know... Horrors that health insurers have to pay out for health care... BTW, the administrative costs for Medicare is less than 3% so you would think that the insurance companies would be happy with more than a 10% profit but 10% is chump change to them... So down the road the US will have to revisit single payer and adopt it or just give up trying to have a healthy population able to compete globally... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 22 Apr 12 - 04:37 PM Okay, here's another one. I can't vouch for this, but this is what I have been told. Among fairly recent innovations in medical diagnosis are various kinds of scanning machines: CAT scanners, MRIs, etc. These machines are very pricey, running, so I've been told, in the millions per gizmo. In many countries, including Canada, or so I've been told, most major population centers have these devices. But if hospital A in, say Vancouver, B.C. doesn't have one, they send you to hospital B for the necessary scan. Reciprocal agreement kind of thing. But in Seattle alone, I know for a fact that there are many of these scanners. If Swedish Hospital has an MRI machine and a CAT scanner, Providence Hospital (a few blocks away) has to have them also. Northwest Hospital has them. The Virginia Mason Hospital has them. Valley General has them. The Polyclinic has them. They ALL have BOTH CAT scanners and MRIs ! Apparently, there are no reciprocal agreements. I have been told that there are more CAT scanners and MRIs in the Greater Seattle area than there are in the entire country of Canada. But just about every hospital and clinic in this area is up to date with the latest equipment, by God! And these very valuable but very expensive diagnostic devices must be paid for. So they use them a lot. Sometimes I think they'll order a scan if you have a hangnail!! And, of course, they bill the insurance company—whose premiums keep ascending like an out of control blimp with a real gas problem. Yeah. Something stinks all right! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Apr 12 - 05:30 PM The strange thing is, I understand, most Americans think that people in other countries envy them rather than pity them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: MartinRyan Date: 22 Apr 12 - 05:33 PM The strange thing is, I understand, most Americans think that people in other countries envy them rather than pity them. Incisive as ever! ;>)> Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 22 Apr 12 - 05:46 PM We know that, McG... Only the Republicans think that everyone envies US... Or at least the ones trying to get votes... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Amos Date: 22 Apr 12 - 08:19 PM Personally, I think the OP was a conflation of hyperinflated vitriol concocted with equal parts spiteful generalization and inaccurate assertion. But that's just me, probably! :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: artbrooks Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:28 PM Amos - as usual, Saw pops in, drops a shit bomb, and sits back laughing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:32 PM Saws is a troll... Nothin' new here... Might of fact, I'd be willing to bet that Sawz is someone else here who has access to two computers... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:51 PM Bobert:Wrong again, GfinS... Nelson was bribed into what was finally passed, not single payer..." Read again, Oh wise one!...Methinks you must be peaking on acid! "You must have forgotten yours. Nelson was bribed, as was Kucinich. Single payer would have been 'better'. Obamacare has NOTHING to do with 'health'......" Gosh, and you're bragging that YOUR guys could be bribed for their vote...WAY TO GO, BOBBSIE!! BTW, Did I ever mention 'corruption'????? Oh, and get that 'buzz' fixed......OHH I get it, You're buzzed! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Apr 12 - 09:58 PM So Bobert is buzzed from time to time. What's your excuse, Gust from Sanity? All you do is fight. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:08 PM Speaking of shitbombs, is anybody here besides me getting totally fed-up with Gust from Insanity's perpetual ragging of Bobert--who seems to be his/her/its target du jour lately? He/she/it can't seem to say anything without accompanying the comments with totally uncalled for and highly unimaginative insults. And as usual, the coward hides behind anonymity. Shows the nature of his/her/its real character. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:16 PM So, GfinS, what is you point??? You made the statement that the Dems could have had whatever they wanted... That was a lie... I pointed out that Nelson and Leiberman said no, no, no to single payer... That gave the Dems only 58 yes votes... Never mind that was a majority as in "majority rule"... Now your story is that Nelson was bribed... Hey, insane one, I don't deny that... Yes, they had to bribe Nelson to get to 60 votes for the final legislation which was a million miles from "single payer"... BTW, I admitted that Nelson was bribed to get the final poduct... What does this matter, insane one??? I have told the truth... You have lied... Period!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:36 PM Thanks, Don, but I'm all grown up and had the privilege/curse of having to represent myself in court (plaintiff) in law suits in over 50 cases so I can handle myself under fire... GfinS has a love/hate relationship with me... Probably goes both ways... No big deal here... Yeah, she's a pain-in-the-butt but, hey, she is usually on the wrong side of arguments so who cares... Beating her in debates is like pop-corn-with-movie-butter for me... She is easy... So don't worry, anyone... GfinS and I have this thing figured out... No, make it "I got it figured out"... Like to keep her guessing and graspin' at straws... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:32 PM Okay, I'm cool with that. I sort of wonder, however, if GfS has the intelligence to realize what a complete CLICKY he/she/it looks like to intelligent, civilized folk. The downside, of course, is that there may come a time when he/she/it wants to be taken seriously for a change. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:32 AM Don, I've noticed for a long time, that you have a fixation with asses...are you implying that bestiality should be a 'civil right'?? I don't have a love hate Jones, either, I was merely replying to his party's flag waving post...and equally, as merely, pointing out to him that he was incorrect...then he came back, wasted, and thought some Thorazine, would help. What's so insulty about that??? Don: "He/she/it can't seem to say anything without accompanying the comments with totally uncalled for and highly unimaginative insults. And as usual, the coward hides behind anonymity." Come on, Don, you've seen the video..heard the music..you know what I am and what I look like .... ...anonymity??????...unimaginative????...hostile???? You didn't listen close enough....or could feel a thing...oh, I nearly forgot..you're an activist...too bad... ...You sparkle when you do music! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:48 AM You're below the belt as usual, GfS, and implying things that are not the case. No, I don't know what you look like, and I haven't listened to it all, so maybe I missed something. What I did hear sounded like cut-rate Vangelis to me. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:53 AM Well there's four, two with guitars and vocals, and two with keyboards. Cut rate Vangelis???? What next?..Yanni?? Oh, Respectfully...(but only in music....it's a higher calling, anyway) GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:58 AM Perhaps I should give them another listen. The problem is that the way you behave in these discussions makes it difficult to listen to your music objectively. Care to give the links again? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Stilly River Sage Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:14 AM Let's take a look back . . . this thread was started by Sawzaw - that's a strike against rational discussion right there. Then there was this Gust from inSanity post: Bobert: "Unfortunately, the Affordable Care Act is all the Dems could get this time around... By 2024 we will have single payer but...." Gust forgets that the "BlueDog Democrats" were working against this as hard as any GOP member. Democrat in name only. DINO. I guess that's what they are. I hope they are all un-elected this time 'round, because they certainly squandered the Democratic majority when it existed. For some reason known only to them. Then Bobert correctly reminded Gust that As per usual, GfinS, you once again have forgotten to take your memory pills... Joe Lieberman is from CONNECTICUT. The MOTHERSHIP of all Insurance Companies. And Nelson is a fool. Jack the Sailor nailed it with: I'm beginning to think that the real base of the Democratic Party are the people with functioning long term memories. Kendall wisely observed: The only people I have heard say "The whole country does not want Obama care" are republicans, those who already have health insurance, and victims of right wing fear mongers. Don Firth gave a CLASSIC example of why the health insurance business is corrupt and broken, and Richard Bridge observed The US medical system is broken - but Obama's moves were a small step in the right direction. Bobert came back in and offered a look back at his experiences with commercial (private, for profit) healthcare: One night I was doodling and figured that since '89 when I went into business for myself that I forked over right at $100,000 in premiums and then tried to think of what I got for it and all I could recall the insurance companies actually paying for was a shingles vaccine which cost them about $100... Other than that??? Nada, zero, zip... And I think the last word on this should go to Richard Bridge: Of course the Kucinich single-payer scheme would have been better, but no-one in their right mind could want to continue the traditional US free-for-all under which "living was a thing that money could buy" ( a quote from "All my trials"). It was a lucid and civil conversation when Gust from inSanity wasn't flying off the handle and making unsupported charges. It still comes out a reasonable discussion if you simply skip over her drug-impaired rants. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:47 AM Thank you, Silly, for your up to the minute re-cap. You mean, it was only 'civil' when the parrots squawk in unison? I also said, "Yes! We need health care...but THIS bill should have NEVER seen the light of day! It SUCKS!" And I am correct...and with the majority of Americans....by EVERY poll! Including the Democrats who are 'bailing out of Obama care'!!!! Wake up! They voted for it because a lot of these fine upstanding 'Representatives' (of the 'who'?)...took bribes or waivers to get their vote. The bill was so fucking wonderful, that to get their vote..they wanted their state, or group, exempt with waivers..... Sounds like they really knew what was in it that it took them a WAIVER!!!..get a fucking clue! This was a shitty bill from day one! Nice try at being snide...but you're out of touch! ........................................................ Don: "Perhaps I should give them another listen. The problem is that the way you behave in these discussions makes it difficult to listen to your music objectively. Care to give the links again?" Don, perhaps it's the PERCEPTION of 'how you behave in these discussions' that has affected your objectivity....I'll buy that. If these is a hostile vibe about me, it would SURELY be detectable in the music. Music says more, than dealing with semi-literate political diatribes. Music is a higher expression..by a long shot! Music unites,politics divide. Ok...this one should have four videos. 'Bittersuite:Joy' is about a half hour long...in light movements, the first part has a low intro, because it was being performed LIVE, (your classical studies would tell you why)....with NO pre-programming, every note heard, is played right there. In 'My Lady' the lyrics have multiple meanings....all accurate. separately, or linked Just read the notes...it's self explanatory. Kick back...turn it up, if you're hooked up to a stereo. ..or use headphones GfS GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: saulgoldie Date: 23 Apr 12 - 05:00 AM I repeat: Ignore the trolls, and they will eventually get bored and go to another forum, until they get ignored there enough, and move on again. Just fuckin ignore them! Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: artbrooks Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:03 AM SRS, you are entirely correct. I generally find that I miss nothing but a small bit of aggravation if I pass by GfIS's posts entirely and only read the actual discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:10 AM No, GfinS, this bill ***HAD*** to be passed!!! Doing nothing and allowing 45,000,000 people to either not have health care or having it and not paying for it isn't what responsible and civilized countries are about... BTW, who pays for the health care that is provided and not paid for??? The rest of us do... It's true that the Affordable Care Act isn't perfect but in the words of the late Ted Kennedy, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good"... Down the road when the knuckle-draggers have figured out that people are just ignorin' their collective temper tantrum we will revisit the Affordable Care Act and move toward a single payer system similar to the countries that have already figured out that it is a lot cheaper and producing better health care... Until then who knows what the knuckle-draggers, including the 5 Supreme Clowns, will do to "stand in the doorway and block the halls"??? That's what knuckle-draggers do... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:54 AM Bobert, I posted a link, a while back, that included some of the provisions that made that bill, a piece of crap. You seem to overlook,(or just can't help yourself), that there is TOO MUCH in that bill, that has NOTHING to do, with 'health care'. ...and if they really wanted a national health care bill they could have done it without all the crap. I think some on the left, who get pandered to, just see an 'entitlement', and start drooling regardless of the freedom trashing control stuff that goes with it!!..so much, that it dwarfs anything near a benefit. This bill has too much of that shit in it....or why is everybody distancing themselves from it???? They finally found out 'What was in it', to quote Pelosi. Now you call the Supreme Court, a bunch of clowns. HEY! How come everybody is a 'clown' or bad guy, who opposes the bill? Why don't you vote to elect Obama as permanent dictator, if you don't like our form of government?? ...and instead of blaming everybody, who has common sense, maybe take an objective look at 'WHY'(that evil word again), growing opposition to the bill..that the Democrats passed, without reading..INCLUDING YOU! So, once again, you are spouting off, about something you really don't know too much about, now aren't you? Ain't the first time. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 23 Apr 12 - 10:20 AM First of all, going thru a bill of this magnitude there are going to be things that folks don't like... Even Obama has admitted this and, unlike you and your Tea Party heros, has shown to be flexible as the ACA gets implemented... But then again I wouldn't expect folks as hate-filled as you understand the concept of "flexibility" as it isn't part of the oath ya'll take to hate anything and everything that Obama does... As for the Supreme Court??? The 5 clowns (Thomas, Kennedy, Alito, Roberts and Scalia) make the "Warren Court" look like Bot Scouts... They are not judges... They see themselves as the Supreme Congress... They rig elections... They bust the average working class man or women every chance they can... They are nothing but puppets for all the Boss Hog, Incs in America... It is said that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"... The Supreme Court has been in the hands of the Republican right going back 43 years... 12 of the last 16 justices have been appointed by Republicans... That is why these clowns think they are God Almighty... Do you know when the last time that Clarence Thomas asked a question of anyone before the court??? It's been years... That not justice... That is buffoonery... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:09 PM Sooner or later the Repuglicans will have to wake up and realise that in a civilised society there are indeed things to which people are entitled. The first is legal justice and arguably the second is social justice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:20 PM Sounds like there's lots of city folks here. I have a load of sand to offer and it's free. Just come get it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: akenaton Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:21 PM As I have said many times, I have been a "socialist" all my life and a strong supporter of what used to be one of life's miracles....our wonderful National Health Service. It was a miracle, serving up medical treatment to all who needed it, free at the point of service. Looking back I now see that it has been abused by everyone, patients, NHS workers, GPs, consultants, drug companies,PFI builders.... The ethos of service has gone and it has become nothing but a financial "black hole"...a money trough, from which every charlatan and crook fills their pockets. Be very careful what you wish for Americans! Without a complete change in the public mindset these fine idealistic ventures are set ot fail, there is no point in leaving children in charge of the sweet shop. Little Hawk has explained that the answer is within each and every one of us....on a personal level. All of the Parties, even nominally socialist ones are wedded to a system which says "grab what you can before someone else does"....except when said system is in the shit, then its "were all in this together", which is code for "give us your fuckin money/labour, or we will starve you out. Someboby said, "There aint no left wing an'right wing.....there's just up wing an down wing"......Its still true, tho' the left, right, up, down have got pretty much mixed up. Forget the labels start thinkin' like LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:23 PM EEEEEEEK!!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: akenaton Date: 23 Apr 12 - 05:19 PM Dont be afraid Don, thinkin' ain't nuthin' to be scared of. The really frightening thing is that reasonably intelligent people still have faith in this crazy system. Or perhaps you see it as self preservation.....the "there's always someone worse off than me" syndrome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 23 Apr 12 - 05:20 PM Here's the real story, Ake... The current Republican Party wants to dismantle our single payer health care program, Medicare, and privatize it... You won't find one Democrat advocating such a radical move toward Ayn Rand's perfect world... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 23 Apr 12 - 06:00 PM It's not thinking that I find scary, Ake. I do a lot of it, and do it quite well, as a matter of fact. It's the idea of thinking like Little Hawk that tends to fill one with horror!! #### GfS—Michael—if that's you at the keyboard, you even look a bit like Vangelis. Very nice, but I'm afraid that we're operating in different spheres. To me, these pieces just noodle around a lot and don't seem to have any kind of center or direction. Best I can describe it is "New Age Abstract Impressionism." But then, perhaps that's what you're aiming at. Don't get me wrong. If this is a criticism, it is well intended and comes from a basis of considerable knowledge. One of the music schools I went to was the Cornish College of the Arts (music, dance, acting, graphic arts), essentially a conservatory. Cornish has a long and interesting history, with a number of prominent graduates. Dancer Merce Cunningham, painter Mark Tobey, and newscaster Chet Huntley, among other well-known nmaes. The current faculty reads like a "Who's Who in the Arts." It's a great place for the serious practicing musician (or dancer or graphic artist or actor). During Cornish's long history, it's had some—interesting—people pass through. One was composer John Cage. Very—um—avant garde. One of his major works was "Four Minutes and Thirty-Three Seconds of Silence" during which the musicians sat on stage and did nothing. The content of the symphony consisted of whatever environmental sounds there were. Coughing, audience shuffling their feet, any kind of ambient reverberation in the hall, a car horn beeping in the street outside. . . . Another was "Symphony for Ten Radios." In this, there were ten small kitchen radios, each one sitting on a small table, and each tuned to a different station. The "musicians" sat at the tables and followed the score, which consisted of lots of rests. They would silently maintain a beat, then, when indicated in the score, that particular "musician" would turn the volume up or down. Every time the "symphony" was played, it was entirely different, dependent upon what each station happened to be broadcasting at the moment. Cage was there in the late 1930s to the early 1940s. I had a much older friend who attended one of Cage's recitals at the school. My friend said that the major mistake they made during the recital was having an intermission. . . . When I was there (1963-65), the Cornish faculty didn't like to talk much about John Cage. But Cage went over fairly well with a small, very artsy and esoteric klatch in New York City. In addition to the usual classes in music theory and composition, and private lessons in voice or instrument, they offer courses in how to program a concert or recital, the business side of music (did you know that you could deduct the cost of guitar strings as a business expense?), and how to deal—or not deal—with agents and managers. Serious stuff for serious musicians. Cornish College of the Arts. Anyway. . . . Actually, I like what Vangelis does. VERY evocative! 1492: The Conquest of Paradise. Cosmos Highly recommended: This is Your Brain on Music, by Daniel J. Leviton Don Firth P. S. Sorry for the interruption, folks. Carry on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Apr 12 - 07:00 PM Don Firth, As I've posted, in regards to this music, it was intentionally simple, in structure...a series of 'movements, (I prefer 'vignettes') in a way that tells a story...BUT, as long as we're here, I want to THANK YOU..for your critique....YOURS is one that I value, because in this area, you know what you are saying. As I said before, in music you sparkle!!..and one would do themselves a good turn, to take in your input, musically, seriously.......and to tell you the truth, I've been rather 'anxious' for a while, to get your feedback....so, thank you, again....and by the way, the timing was right..of all people, YOU put me in the place where your 'hit' qualifies me to 'monetize', if I choose. So far, I didn't compose it FOR money..so I won't decide about that, for a bit. Did you listen to more than one?.....I thought the one ('My Lady') has some very nice guitar work...though, again simple..just tasty, without too much of it, and the 'lead guitar' works off the lyrics, nicely, without taking attention away from the words. All that said, and I've got some stuff, yet to put up, online, that is VERY different...and I'd think more conventionally formed. ..and one more thing......no hostility, no resentment, or anything NEAR the perception of 'GfS'. Thank you for taking the time...when I get home, I will save your post, and compare notes even more closely. Regards, GfS Oh, and as far as the thread.....'Right Wing', and 'Left Wing' are on the same bird...and that bird, has been 'bought' and paid for, by the same owner. It was done very underhandedly, corruptly.. for the profits of that owner..not the people who were given 'promises' as a sales pitch....as a 'bait and switch' scam......some of you just haven't figured out yet, that you've been had! But you will.....Glass-Steagal, I'm sure, was sold to you...as was 'NAFTA'..and Clinton fucked up, on both of those.....while CLAIMING it was for the 'good' of the people......question is, 'Which people'?? The banksters, who made their profits, then shut the door, behind them...BTW, same with 'Citizens United'. Truth is, we've been screwed, and the political parties, are still insistent on saying "Thank You, do it some more!!!!!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 23 Apr 12 - 07:29 PM Okay, I'll step up to the plate, as well... The music is delicious... I was a closet Windham Hill junkie back in those days... Is that your stuff, GfinS??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Don Firth Date: 23 Apr 12 - 09:31 PM It may be a matter of my personal taste, Michael, but there were two things about "My Lady," which are actually interrelated. First, I was only able to pick up about one word out of three in the lyrics due to—what? "Overproduction?" Electronic echo and electronic sustain of the instruments. I have good speakers, plus I have a pair of pricy studio-quality headphones. Examples of what I'm talking about: Roger McGuinn, formerly lead singer of The Birds (Seeger's "Turn, Turn,Turn") has a most interesting web site called "The Folk Den." Having focused lately on essentially traditional folk songs (as contrasted with "folk songs" written in the 1960s or just last week), It's an on-going project of his to record songs and post them on the web site for anybody to make use of. He gives you the words and the chords he uses, along with some background notes on the song, and an MP3 you can listen to and/or download. Thank you, Roger McGuinn! But—my one criticism of the MP3s is they are generally overproduced. He will lay down a couple of guitar tracks, then overdub his singing of the melody with his singing of a harmony line. Along with some in-computer studio effects. A simple, straightforward single voice singing the melody, accompanied by a single guitar—without all the overdubbing and in-studio and in-computer horsefeathers—would be sufficient. Fine! Very nice, actually. Another example. I am acquainted with a young woman living nearby who has a very nice singing voice, and she writes her own songs (CLICKY). She did a CD recently and a friend of hers produced it for her, adding a guitar track (she doesn't play, herself, she just sings), a drum track (EEEK!!), and did some hanky-panky with various effects, including horsing around with Melodyne. Amazingly enough, the ten songs (kinda sparse for a CD) came through okay. The guitar was fine. But some of the other additions—especially the total unnecessary and quite intrusive drum track—definitely do not enhance Misty's efforts at all. Too bad! Unfortunately, poor Misty has a box of about 250 CDs in a closet, out of which she has sold . . . well, not that many. I bought one from her in the spirit of "support your local musician." (Not bad, actually. Except for that @%$&ßq# drum track!!) Just a suggestion: you might want to try recording something just "bare nekkid," just as it comes out of the voice and the instruments and listen to that very carefully and ask yourself, "If I add any effects to this, is it going to enhance it? Or is it just going to clutter it up?" Keep a raw copy and try adding whatever effects (a touch of reverb, perhaps?) you think would spruce it up. Then listen carefully to it, AND the original. Does it really help? Experiment. And this may sound like strange advice from one who, on these threads, keeps getting dubbed a "loony liberal," but with what one puts on a recording, it's much better to err on the conservative side than to throw in everything including the kitchen sink! But it's your work. You have to do the deciding. Cheers. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Democrats Bailing out on Obamacare Etc From: Bobert Date: 23 Apr 12 - 10:05 PM Nah, Don... When we were young we wanted to play everything we knew in every song... Good music is knowing what not to play... The late Danny Gatton, i.e. "World's Best Unknown Guitar Player" never got over it... Yes, technically he was maybe the best technician... Just never learned to pare down... The other late Carlos Castaneda in his writings of Don Juan talked about the concept of seeing by not seeing... I understand this... I have a knack for finding 4 leaf clovers... If there is one among a thousand, I'll see only it... Mature musicians leave out the 3 leaf clovers... B~ |
