BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 03:13 AM

The first ever Labour PM and the King.
MacDonald wrote in his diary: "King most friendly and expressed thanks and confidence. I then reported situation and at end I told him that after tonight I might be of no further use, and should resign with the whole Cabinet.... He said that he believed I was the only person who could carry the country through."

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 06:41 PM

Wouldn't "feudal" be a more accurate term for his role as arch-landlord, ratgher than "capitalist"?

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 05:57 PM

He gets a damn sight more from being an arch-capitalist arch-landlord than he does from his organic veggies, so I doubt it!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 05:32 PM

I rather imagine that if Prince Charles has any political preferences they'd be for the Greens rather than the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 03:25 PM

hello again, comrades -still we bicker, on round and round the usual circles and no progress. i am not going to a talk given by a conservative mp this evening, i am heading up the pub. i may -hopefully-exchange opinions with some folk i don't wholly agree with (though i can honestly say i have had less than a dozen conversations with people claiming to be conservatives (and this includes new labour types) since 1979-maybe i'm just lucky to have lived in the north and scotland in that time) i hope i can treat their opinions with respect and have a laugh while enjoying a few pints of jennings and playing scrabble. for those tories among you -boko?- can i ask again-assuming you aren't wealthy or royalty-why? didn't go to eton? not one of their 'set? the bullingdon boys do despise you, you know and will take away everything you rely on to keep our society decent if we let them.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,SFJ
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 12:45 PM

Try having a pint and chat with them instead. No need to be nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 11:58 AM

I am going to a talk given by a Conservative MP this evening and I shall enjoy heckling any raving lefties who spout their usual rubbish!!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Stu
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 10:34 AM



A comment which betrays an unsurprising lack of wit and imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 10:21 AM

""Bet they don't vote Labour.""

Now you are showing your ignorance.

The monarch doesn't vote. She is above and outside of the political process, and by long established tradition doesn't take sides.

Her thoughts are her own, however, if you feel competent as a mind reader.

But she never expresses an opinion.

I believe I am right in saying that those in line for the succession don't vote either.

So whoever they might favour in their thoughts, they have no influence on events, and get this straight in that ball of wool between your ears. They DO NOT cost the country a fortune, in fact the reverse.

The financial facts are a matter of public record, and indisputable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 08:30 PM

No political bias? Ha! That's rich. The royals are not only solidly right-wing but they represent everything that is traditionally hard-right in British society: unelected, privilege-ridden in every sense of the word, inherited wealth, descent from vicious land-grabbers - you name it! Bet they don't vote Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM

""I can't think of anything more undemocratic than an heriditary monarchy that represents the worst of privilege and costs the country a fortune.""

How many times do you think you'll need to re-hash that proven lie, before it becomes truth?

And a constitutional monarch does give a democracy an internaional voice devoid of political bias. I'll take that any day, rather than President Blair.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 02:15 PM

You haven't seen me with no shirt on.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 01:37 PM

I can't think of anything more hideous than an anti-monarchist.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 01:30 PM

I can't think of anything more undemocratic than an heriditary monarchy that represents the worst of privilege and costs the country a fortune. Just because people want it doesn't alter the fact that it is an intrinsically extremely undemocratic institution. Gladiators, bullfighting and public hangings have been just as popular in their time. And bingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 11:51 AM

And every time Australia ask the people if they want to get rid, they reckon she is far better than someone who actually wants the job.

Many science fiction authors, Arthur C Clarke springs to mind as one, imagine a system where either you get to run the world for a time, in the same way as jury service, or in more sci fi fashion, peoples' brains are probed and the person who least wants to be King gets the crown, like it or lump it.

Funny thing democracy if you don't believe in it. Whilst ever the majority want the status quo, Steve's comments (and others, but Steve is posting most at present) are just an opinion, not a statement of what is "wrong." it can't be wrong whilst ever people wave their flags. Or at least, whilst at least 51% do...

Me? I'm a happy democrat. (Not a Liberal democrat, but a happy democrat. In some ways I would love to be a Liberal Democrat. After all, my back gives me gip and if I joined them, I wouldn't have a backbone to give me trouble in the first place.)

That close to satire.......

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 08:38 AM

"Well if they're purely honorary and ceremonial, Don, why haven't you or I got one!"

I thought Don was The Firth of Forth?

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Jul 12 - 05:35 AM

So, Steve, you believe that it's fine for private telephone conversations to be tapped and the contents published? I don't care if it's Jack the Ripper on his phone, he still has the right to privacy. And Charles (or any of the Royal Family) is not a 'celebrity', there is a difference. Sycophancy? That's your opinion, to which you also have every right. But as for me, I just subscribe to the traditions of a millennium, and happen to like the continuity they provide. I feel they add to the stability of the nation. That's my opinion, to which I too have a right.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 06:42 PM

"it has" innit

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 06:40 PM

Come on now, Eliza. Celebs' private lives are open season. We make them as rich as Croesus and all they have to do in return is be bloody careful as to what they say in front of whom. I think it's quite healthy that we can find out what these paragons are really like (unless you want to think that all kings, queens, princes and princesses lead fairy storybook lives and you don't want the bubble pricked). And let me just ask you this. What is more ungentlemanly, his declaring that he wants to be a tampon in his wife's, er, wellyouknow, or me just mentioning the unsavoury fact, when it's has been in the public domain anyway for many a long year? Regard it not so much as ungentlemanly but more as a corrective to the outpouring of gushing sycophancy that infests this thread.

As for you, Don, you appear to think that the more you call people who disagree with you liars, the more it makes them liars. Poor chap. Turn the record over.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 01:36 PM

Their problem is that once everything they claim about the cost/benefit downside of the monarchy has been proved to be absolute nonsense, they have no other choice than to fall back on eavesdropping, rumour and downright lies.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Musket
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 01:30 PM

Haven't been on this thread for a while.

Steve Shaw answered one of my questions by differentiating between tax payers and capitalists.

I'm a capitalist. That means I can become a tax payer which allows me to help fund a social program. Or for that matter, I'm a socialist who realises you need capitalism in order to fund socialist style infrastructure in the first place. I used to call it Labour, but the world is a funny old place.

Even The USSR sold us Lada cars and Zenith cameras....

So there isn't much difference really, except perhaps the lack of a chip on my shoulder.

Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Jul 12 - 06:29 AM

The 'tampon' conversation was entirely private and was published as the result of an eavesdropper. Even to allude to it is ungentlemanly. Can't people's private lives remain so, without folk speculating about whether one is 'shagging' or with whom?

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 03:12 PM

Hellooo? Considering he once declared that he would rather like to be a tampon within the confines of his good wife's, er, fundamentosus frontalis, I hardly think we need consider that he spends his holidays in a state of celibacy. However, you're right. I have no evidence. Just a hunch. And it isn't a sin, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 02:40 PM

"shaggin'" ?

Does he take Viagra?
Haven't seen anything in the tabloids. Nor any papparazzi photos. If you have a story, let's see it.

What libelous nonsense !

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 06:04 AM

he only has the life his duties allow.

Not so. He spends, like the rest of the royals, months in every year out of public view on vast estates, luxury yachts or private tropical islands, huntin', shootin', fishin' and shaggin'. He doesn't get there courtesy of Ryanair either. Blinkers off!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 12 - 05:40 AM

""Well if they're purely honorary and ceremonial, Don, why haven't you or I got one!""

Because neither of us is heir to the throne, with the responsibility of carrying out hundreds of public engagements.

Given the job description I'd rather have my life than his, especially as he only has the life his duties allow.

He didn't choose the family he was born into, and since his birth he has been trained for a role not of his choice either.

If you didn't want to follow your parents into the family business, you didn't have to.

Not so with him. Constitutionally he cannot resign.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:08 PM

Those are purely honorary and ceremonial titles. He'd get short shrift if he tried to issue orders. Militarily he holds only such reserve rank as he may have earned in service.

The level of ignorance in some of these responses is abysmal.

Don T.

Well if they're purely honorary and ceremonial, Don, why haven't you or I got one! So next time they show up at the Cenotaph, laden with a coupla kilos of dodgy gongs on their chests, are you going to tell us again what brave and mighty warriors they all are?

Abysmal isn't a level. It's a big hole. Cue next insult from owld Don...

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:23 PM

if you like something-go for it, why just watch others do it? unless of course what you enjoy is watching sweaty, rich boys on confused horses!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:02 PM

There is a Calgary Polo Club, in Okotoks (also Calgary area. Didn't mean to slight them.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:58 PM

Bonzo, I haven't watched polo since I was in University. I wish it was more popular.

Polocrosse is the closest we get here in the foothlls of the Rockies.
http://polocrossecanada.com/about/members/millarville

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:44 PM

I don't include discussion of the noises heard in the bushes and back seats of the cars parked around the watering hole (pub- what's that?).

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:42 PM

It gave me much pleasure to watch polo at the Beaufort Club which stands next to Highgrove - excellent lunch!!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:21 PM

stick strictly to the point? why? you must be a riot down the pub-do you go out with an agenda and never deviate?

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 01:17 PM

It was a pretty good show, except for the concert by those puffed-up 'celebrities'. Not so wonderful. I turned off the TV and put on a good old lp of music from the 50s.
How tastes in music have deteriorated!

(Any way to eliminate the posts that have no bearing on the thread title?)

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 11:25 AM

it's nothing to do with ignorance to not know this stuff-life is way, way too short. the titles that lot award themselves have nothing to do with my life. or yours. i imagine they have occasional evenings around the fire looking at the big book of fatuous ceremonial protocol (i'm reminded of gormenghast)
'mummy.....shouldn't i get a new badge...i think i may be overseer of the confederation of highland ironmongers'
'would you like a new badge, dear? '
'weeeellll...i would really...and maybe a sash, too?'
(telegraph rustles, duke mutters) 'bloody idiot boy....'

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 11:10 AM

i do try to ignore the more obvious eejits on here -yes i know i am turning green and overweight while sheltering under the bridge over the cocker- however.....terribus et al-what planet are you on? ever heard of the term 99%/1%?, ever considered the life of chinese factory slaves? or families down your street? no matter what political system the 1% of the chinese are claiming to use - or here or greece or anywhere- it is the same old story. a few rich and powerful white men are running the whole show for their own benefit, while screwing the rest of the world and its people, as they always have. it isn't hard to understand. trying to justify the excesses,cruelties and luxuries of these thieves (from the time of william the conq. for f***sake!!) to the global capitalists of today is ridiculous. our brave and cheated armed forces fight wars in the name of the queen to secure cheap oil for the americans - she too, is being used. oops - just thought -you are being ironic aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 10:52 AM

""Prince Charles becomes a Field Marshal, Admiral of the Fleet and Marshal of the Royal Air Force.

Well there you go. Anyone here like to tell us how he "earned" all this? Heheh!""

Those are purely honorary and ceremonial titles. He'd get short shrift if he tried to issue orders. Militarily he holds only such reserve rank as he may have earned in service.

The level of ignorance in some of these responses is abysmal.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:07 AM

When I was in Beijing in 1988, a year before the Tiananmen protests, there was probably not enough inequality - i.e., if a doctor, wanting me to help him emigrate, told me the truth about his earnings compared with others; now they seem to have the same revolting inequality as the West...careful what you wish for..?

And re "Trooping the Colour" - how would you like to be directed about by someone tugging on either side of your mouth?; my poem "Horses for Courses?" - http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/walkaboutsverse-146-of-230.html

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:58 AM

(again) surely it is obvious that those born into the royal families around the world are no better or worse than anyone else -we all just make the best of what we are born with and what the world throws our way.
however, they do seem to have a very limited imagination when it comes to career choices -the guys play at soldiers when not visiting places, while the women like horses when not opening things. not saying it's bad -just a bit predictable. i'm grateful to mark steel for telling us that the queen mother was an expert on the trombone, but other than that - not much apparent creative talent.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:41 AM

"Slowly but slowly the lot of the average Chinese citizen is improving."

Not really, but it will improve if they can get democracy established. Whatever it is, China is not a communist state; it's more a sort of Capitalist Oligarchy, where there is a rich political elite, creaming off the top of a rich capitalist elite, a tiny weeny urban middle class and a vast reserve of what is essentially captive labour. The perfect conditions for capitalism to thrive, as the workers must not be paid the value of what they produce with their time and labour.

It's a right old mess over there, and my brother, who visits several times a year and travels well off the beaten track tells of how the state is spending vast amounts on large housing schemes, factories and shopping malls with no-one to occupy them as the cost is way out of the reach of ordinary citizens. There are huge cities we've never heard of over there, and these are expanding at an incredible rate.

Of course like unregulated capitalist societies anywhere, the scum rises to the top (see Levenson Enquiry, bankers etc). China has a chance to avoid this and sweep the board clean if it can avoid too much Anglo-Saxon influence. I welcome this, as I truly believe the Chinese, if allowed freedom of expression and speech as well as the rights we all enjoy here could be the most wonderful nation. So much potential that hasn't been pissed away for a quick buck by the likes of those whom run our societies (see Levenson Enquiry, bankers etc).

Queenies official birthday today. They have official birthday because in ye olden days if a monarch was born in wintertime the weather would often be bad, spoiling the day for the poor dears apparently. Anyhow, it's cold and slashing down today so best of luck. At least she got to hand out some medals making people members of an empire that (thankfully) has ceased to exist.

The anachronisms continue to pile up!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:36 AM

Name just one thousand!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 05:59 AM

Before advancement to high rank for ceremonial reasons, both Lt Philip Mountbatten's, and his son the Prince of Wales's naval careers followed a normal career path. His next son is a successful, and obviously militarily gifted, career officer whose promotions are in accordance with his service seniority. Likewise his son-in-law. His other son turned out to be unfitted for a military career, and was clearly advised of this by his superiors and persuaded to resign his commission ~ chucked out, in other words, with no concessions to his family relationships. His two grandsons have likewise advanced to their present ranks of Flight-Lieutenant and Captain by normal due process of promotion, and are normally employed in the duties concordant with their ranks and arms of the service with no concessions. All of these have initially completed the full appropriate training in the appropriate officer-cadet institution, Dartford or Sandhurst or Cranwell.

There has been none of the joining with the rank of Staff Colonel which could have happened in certain royalties at certain periods. Every commission, every promotion, has been worked for and earned; with the sole exception of the one who failed to keep up, and had to quit.

Yeah, yeah, we believe ya - thousands wouldn't... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:59 AM

Trooping The Colour today.
Reminds me of a previous one at height of Irish troubles.
Although a prime target for assassination, and close relatives having already been brutally murdered, no bullet proof limo.

Riding side saddle through the crowded streets, a shot was fired so close it spooked her horse.
Most of us would have dived for cover on the ground, or hunched down and spurred the horse to a gallop.

She just steadied her horse, and had it walk on.
Every nerve must have been anticipating the second shot and the bullet tearing through flesh.
But, no outward sign.
That was her duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:06 AM

To get back to the subject, it was a wonderful Jubilee in spite of all the usual whinges posted here!!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:29 AM

Dartford!!

Dartmouth, buggerit!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:27 AM

Before advancement to high rank for ceremonial reasons, both Lt Philip Mountbatten's, and his son the Prince of Wales's naval careers followed a normal career path. His next son is a successful, and obviously militarily gifted, career officer whose promotions are in accordance with his service seniority. Likewise his son-in-law. His other son turned out to be unfitted for a military career, and was clearly advised of this by his superiors and persuaded to resign his commission ~ chucked out, in other words, with no concessions to his family relationships. His two grandsons have likewise advanced to their present ranks of Flight-Lieutenant and Captain by normal due process of promotion, and are normally employed in the duties concordant with their ranks and arms of the service with no concessions. All of these have initially completed the full appropriate training in the appropriate officer-cadet institution, Dartford or Sandhurst or Cranwell.

There has been none of the joining with the rank of Staff Colonel which could have happened in certain royalties at certain periods. Every commission, every promotion, has been worked for and earned; with the sole exception of the one who failed to keep up, and had to quit.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 12 - 01:25 AM

British industry was dead long before Maggie Thatcher became Prime Minister, all she did was put it out of its misery (British steel and coal was ridiculously expensive - I think we were mining coal at £250 per ton when we could get it delivered from Australia for £8 per ton - The Coal Industry was costing £750million a day to subsidise it - that just could not go on - Scargill & Co thought that it could and should by right). What is not mentioned in your little left-wing rant is the foreign investment that she brought into the country.

The country she handed over at the end of her tenure was financially sound, other European countries followed her example, then in 1997 TB & Co came onto the scene - Now after 13 years of Labour Government how would you describe the state of the country. The totally incompetent performance of Blair and Brown has destroyed our country, the "Coalition Government" that has followed them is doing no better, but giving them their due taking over from Gordon of Cartoon they have been passed a poisoned chalice.

Every Labour Government that has been elected since the end of the second world war has diminished the country and left the country in a total mess, that the subsequent Tory Government has had to pull us out of.

As for the "Honourary" Ranks awarded to Prince Charles?? I think that might have something to do with the fact that they are required to be held so that Prince Charles can take on some of the Royal Duties that presently can only be carried out by the Queen herself (86) or by the Duke of Edinburgh (90).

Talking about "earning" things some instances for you to look into.

Harold Wilson - the man who would not let you buy your own home - came into office owning one home, left office owning five.

Neil Kinnock - the man the British would not trust with running the country - compare his "lifestyle change" between him joining Parliament and today (Where did he get his millions)

The Blairs - Both lawyers now multi-millionaires (How??)

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 08:37 PM

The Prince of Wales has been awarded the highest rank in all three military services by the Queen.

Prince Charles becomes a Field Marshal, Admiral of the Fleet and Marshal of the Royal Air Force.

Well there you go. Anyone here like to tell us how he "earned" all this? Heheh!

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 08:29 PM

Er, I think it was Maggie who shut down British industry in the 1980s and threw millions on to incapacity benefit in a cynical move to keep the unemployment figures looking acceptable. While she was at it, she wrecked hundreds of communities in working-class areas and threw working people, families, towns and villages on to the no-hope scrapheap. Just after that she deregulated the City and allowed the Big Bang (thousands of yuppies making overnight fortunes without having to do a scrap of work), which led to the Big Bust of the early 90s (exit from the ERM and hundreds of thousands of home owners, Maggie's flagship policy representatives, being pitched into the misery of negative equity).

You appear to be the archetypal right-wing revisionist. Well, it's nice to know the true colours of those you debate with. At least us lefties are proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Wonderful Jubilee celebrations
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 12 - 06:25 PM

"Well, we do have elections I suppose."

You mean those things where the "dyed in the wool" Labour voter votes Labour and the "dyed in the wool" Tory voter votes Tory, etc. Where each Party promioses to buck up and not make the same fuck-ups they made last time, but really because they are all professional politicians none of them actually give a toss about what any member of the public thinks?

Tell me who has a vested interest in keeping people down-trodden and trapped on benefits?? The answer is the Labour party.

Look at their track record since they won the election in 1945 - anyone reviewing their performance who still votes for Labour has just got to be "Brain Dead".

We've no gold reserves - Brown sold them off to buy votes
Our pensions are stuffed - Because Brown raided them to buy votes