Is it legal to video a group sing?

Subject: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Atb
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 10:35 AM

I am part of an pub sing and have been going for about 4 years. A few months ago, a new guy started showing up and taking video of all the singing. I believe he is part of the local folk society. Since these are casual events where we goof around a lot, I don't like being on video without my consent. I tried asking him to stop taping, and he made some grumbly noises about how his head blocks the camera or some rubbish.

Is this even legal?

I mostly object to the computer screen, which glows brightly during the whole session (he is using a MacBook to video.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 11:00 AM

Legal? Where? This board has an international membership and what is legal in one poster's country may be illegal in yours.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 11:02 AM

Hang around a while, I'm sure someone will be along shortly to point you to recent discussions on the subject.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: RTim
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 11:18 AM

At our club (In Woods Hole, MA, USA) we have a policy of NO Recording or Photos - without prior permission of the Performers. If they are OK, then it is ok.

I think if you set a policy, people should agree to it.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 11:24 AM

Is his laptop keyboard beerproof?

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 11:36 AM

We are in Oregon, USA.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 02:50 PM

It's not illegal to record/dvd someone without their permission, but it's bloody bad manners to do it without asking. Also, the fact that he's distracting people with the glow of his laptop indicates that he may be just a little bit short on marbles or good manners or both.

Personally, I record audio, which doesn't usually upset people. But I could imagine folks get very chary if something a bit below par was liable to end up on Youtube.

If you want to stop him just point out that some of the songs may well be copyright, and he could be in breach of copyright law. If that doesn't stop him, wait until there's a good downfall of snow and then turf him out into it.

Personally, I've been recording guest artists for over forty years. I've always asked and have only ever had one refusal. Sessions are a different proposition of course, especially if people are wandering in and out. However, a general question to the company or the MC, will usually smooth the way.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 02:51 PM

It would be unlawful in the UK.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: s&r
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM

Which laws apply Richard?

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 03:13 PM

In the UK, you are generally allowed to photograph anyone in a public place. There are extensive discussions on photography websites, and some photographers carry printed explanations of their rights to show when jobsworths try to stop them. So if you don't want to be photographed or videod goofing around, don't do it in public.

The question is whether a pub session is 'public'. I'd have thought it isn't, it's on private premises to which people are admitted, but the owner can refuse entry if he feels like it. If this visitor won't stop when it's explained to him that the musicians are unhappy about it, you should complain to the bar manager.

I think copyright would only apply if he then tried to publish it, in which case there is not only copyright in the composition but also in the arrangement (which is probably by the people in the room) and the performers also own the copyright in their performance. So if he puts it on youtube there could be a number of copyright infringements.

However it occurs to me that in 50 years time these could be seen as valuable archive recordings. IS it really that big a problem? Can't you try to agree with him what is and what is not acceptable?

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 03:57 PM

Part II Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988, sections 180 to 205B - specifically S 182.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: s&r
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 04:30 PM

Thanks Richard

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 04:33 PM

I think in the US you would have to get release forms from everybody videoed to post it on youtube. It's not often observed and would be hard to enforce. It is bad manners to video a song session without at least generally asking everyone.

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Nick
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 04:53 PM

Thank goodness I didn't record you playing Patrick Spens or you might have sued me.

Man with Tanglewood

Subject: RE: Tech: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Nick
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 05:11 PM

But on a practical note go to any concert in this country or anywhere and the chance are that there will be a video of it somewhere - or do those people with the phones have invisible children on their shoulders who are phoning people and are holding it up to get a signal.

And who knows whether that is good or bad? I'm not sure people know.

I was in a pub in Whitby a year or two ago and bumped into some Sheffield folk (Jack's Rake) who were lovely. Hour or two of trading and sharing songs. Bloke had a video camera. Somewhere there is or was a record of the happiness for me of that time - and all the errors and mistakes.

Would I like to see it again to remember that experience? On balance I think yes.

My dad borrowed a cine camera many years ago and I got a copy of some things from when I was 14-18 and it's stuff you can't buy.

In a world of moral ambivalence I confuse myself as to what is right or wrong.

I'll give you an example -

A bloke who I chat to about music is a Smashing Pumpkins fan. Oceania came out on the 19th and I listened to a little of it on his iphone in a noisy pub. Listened to it on Spotify if I choose; can download it easily for nothing if I choose. I might only listen to it once....

I find it very confusing.

Up in Arran my wife and I went to a session and the lass who ran it had a great voice and Lynne and her had a few hours of harmonies and fun where you trade songs without fear (if that makes sense?) for the pure fun of doing it. We'll meet again when we go up there and she comes to Yorkshire hopefully.

I have a recording of the second time we met up - which is never as good as the first time in a way. I would love to have the highlights of the thing that happened first time round which - unless google have real time video and sound (have they???) - is on it's way to Alpha Centauri by now.

Now there's a thought. If we could travel fast enough...

I'm not sure what is right or wrong on this

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 07:03 PM

Any one videoing me without asking is liable to have his laptop trodden on in the fracas !!

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 07:39 PM

Terry, I think thou doth protest TOO much.......you should be totally suprised and joyful if someone really wanted to catch you for posterity!

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 08:08 PM

Only if I do a Good Job mate !

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 09:23 PM

As guest peter says, the legality of it depends where you are.

Generally speaking though, to record somebody without their permission is a big no no.

If you don't approve then you should TELL him not to record you.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Genie
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 02:26 AM

Videoing and publishing/sharing the videos are two separate issues.   Regardless of the law(s), I think it is common courtesy as well as generally accepted policy in many musical gatherings to ask permission before doing either.    I don't think it's acceptable - legal or not - to put a video of someone on YouTube or the like, for public access, without their permission.

I have been videoing some song circles and informal concerts and workshops for several years now and have really not had a problem with this because I do not share/publish any video without the permission of those in the video.   It's not feasible to stop the video temporarily, to avoid recordinging a particular performer - I am using a MacBook - but when asked, I have averted the camera aperture so that I did not get any video image of the performer, just the audio. And in those rare cases where I've been asked to delete the audio as well, I have done that.

As for the glare of the MacBook screen, that's pretty easy to fix.   You can adjust the brightnness of the screen at will.   If you have the camera set up so it's a fixed visual field (not needing adjustment for each new performer), you can just darken the screen entirely. If you do need to check the screen periodically, to make sure the image is framed properly, you can still dim the screen quite a bit and still be able to see it.

My MacBook's screen is set to automatically go to black after about 3 to 5 minutes if I don't hit the space bar. So it usually "blacks out" well before a particular performance has finished.

BTW, these issues apply not just to audio/video but to still images as well.   Some of us really don't like to have gawdawful photos of us "shared" widely, especially if we are "tagged" in those photos.   I say the same principles of common courtesy should apply. ASK PERMISSION before publishing or "sharing" photos, audio files or videos, especially if you are identifying the people in question.

Genie

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 05:42 AM

This issue comes up occasionally at some of the hoots we have at our home in the Seattle area of Washington state, usa. I was startled about three years ago when one of the regular "performers" got quite irate over someone video recording her with a small phone/camera. She stopped the song, chewed out the guest, embarassed him greatly, and we've never seen him since. It caught me by surprise as I hadn't even noticed the recording.

Several of us had discussions about this event over the next few weeks ... I should mention that a lot of the people that come to our hoots are professional performers who record and tour a lot. Most people thought that I, as the host, should have "made sure" that no recording happened. I disagreed. I said that if YOU don't want want to be recorded, simply tell everyone.

Obviously good manners would dictate that permission be requested, and it often is in the sessions I'm around. But to demand that I act as a cop will make me take a much simpler approach ... I'll just stop hosting the hoots ... and I pretty much have.

In this age of increasingly improved (sneaky ?) recording devices, you will have a full time job just monitoring a large gathering to make sure no one is doing any recording.

Our hoots are very private gatherings, invitation only. As such, people are comfortable in "letting down their hair" and doing a lot of silly jamming and just goofing around. Great fun! And FUN is what they are all about.

... hope this helps the discussion ... bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 08:07 AM

The main issue is one of courtesy. Most people would feel uncomfortable continuing to record if the musicians made it clear that they weren't happy, and would stop their recording if asked. If that didn't work, some sort of sabotage would probably start - people blocking the camera, pulling faces, knocking into the equipment, etc.

Sound recording is a lot less intrusive, and it's difficult to prevent it even if you wanted to. The odd video clip on someone's mobile is not really a problem to most people, but making a film of a whole evening without permission is downright rude.

And what are they going to do with the film? I once took part in an informal event (no one was paid) with various people performing, and one guy filmed the whole thing. He became friendly with someone else I knew, and I found out months later that he had subjected them to a viewing of the whole film. It wasn't just that I minded being filmed, I also minded the way the resulting footage was inflicted on others who probably found most of it pretty boring. The actual event had its own atmosphere and intimacy, which would have been completely lost in a scrappy amateur film played back on a computer screen.

It's a sign of the times - many people don't feel they have experienced anything properly unless they've photographed or recorded or blogged it or whatever. But don't start me on that ...

Marje

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 11:55 AM

I asked our own Jed Marun if I could play with my very new Vid Cam at a house concert at Chateau Cook after the 2010 getaway- He assented and with Dennnis Cooks assistance was able to present him with a DVD of the evening . I wouldnt dream of recoirding any performer without asking first , and would always offer them a copy as well .

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: open mike
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 12:08 PM

if the person is from the folk society, what is the purpose for the video..is it to archive the event? Generally it is allowed to record in public, however, this event is on private property, although the public has access.....isn't that where the name "pub" came from? If the group has an objection to the filming, the person should stop.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 07:00 PM

Here is section 182 of the UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, 1988:

a performer's rights are infringed by a person who, without his consent—

1. makes a recording of the whole or any substantial part of a qualifying performance directly from the live performance,


2. broadcasts live, the whole or any substantial part of a qualifying performance,


3. makes a recording of the whole or any substantial part of a qualifying performance directly from a broadcast of, the live performance.

In an action for infringement of a performer's rights brought by virtue of this section damages shall not be awarded against a defendant who shows that at the time of the infringement he believed on reasonable grounds that consent had been given.

Seems pretty clear. If you don't have permission it's not lawful in the UK.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: stallion
Date: 22 Jun 12 - 07:14 PM

not really bothered although there is a dodgy u tube of us which isn't particularly flattering (only one I hear you all say - in unison!) but generally speaking people ask if it's ok, more often than not the sound reproduction isn't that good on phones n similar but hey never mind

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Marje
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 04:54 AM

The quote from the Act above doesn't specify what counts as a "qualifying performance". I suspect that an informal, amateur pub gathering, where no one is being paid to perform, would not be covered.

The original question referred to the US, but the same issues arise in the UK, so it's still worth discussing.

Marje

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge logged out
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 07:28 AM

If it is in the UK or by a person ordinarily resident in the UK it is a qualifying performance.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 09:06 AM

"Is it legal to video a group sing?"

Legal schmegal: if you don't want to be taped, say so!

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Marje
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 01:25 PM

But what is a "performance"? Six people singing Happy Birthday at a family party? One person singing Blaydon Races in a pub? Ten people joining in the chorus? The school Year Three Choir singing Away in a Manger? All of those could be by UK residents but it would be strange if it was illegal to make any sort of record or film of any of them without formally asking every individual involved.

Marje

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 08:16 PM

Here is what the act says is a qualifying performance, Marje

"A performance is a qualifying performance for the purposes of the provisions of this Part relating to performers' right if it is given by a qualifying individual (as defined in section 206) or takes place in a qualifying country (as so defined)"

On the basis of that, I would think all your examples are qualifying performances and, technically, you do have ask everyone's permission, though I suspect saying "anyone mind if I video this?" and not getting a negative response will count as permission.

The last part of the section I quoted above gives you a let out if you can show you genuinely believed you had permission.

"In an action for infringement of a performer's rights brought by virtue of this section damages shall not be awarded against a defendant who shows that at the time of the infringement he believed on reasonable grounds that consent had been given."

In practice, of course, most people don't ask everyone's permission and permission is often taken for granted by virtue of the fact that no one has objected.

I have a number of videos I have taken at various Black Bull Benders. I took them quite openly and no one complained. On the other hand, I have not made them publicly available, they remain on my computer but I will not publish them without asking permission first.

If you are interested to investigate further, the whole act is on line and accessible for free. In the UK, Simply Google "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988" and it should show up as first hit.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Marje
Date: 24 Jun 12 - 04:55 AM

The Act seems to be a bit circuitous: it says that a "performance" is defined as "(a) A dramatic performance; (b) a musical performance", etc, but without saying when simply doing something becomes "performing" it. A session is often more like a rehearsal than a performance.

It could be argued that at a certain level (a family singing Happy Birthday; the Best Man's wedding speech; some friends singing carols together) there is no "performing" taking place, as there is no paying audience. Pub sessions are a bit of a marginal case, as there is often no real "audience" and no charge is made for listening in to what is essentially some informal music-making among friends. Sometimes it even takes place in a closed room where everyone is a participant - although I suppose it could become a "performance" as soon as the guy with the camera appears and starts recording. Sounds like a good reason to send him away.

Marje

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jun 12 - 07:40 AM

Unless a camera has an option for manual record level it will sound awful, even when the video is in HD. And even then, the mic preamp sensitivity needs to be set correctly, otherwise it will distort and present numerous other problems.

Listen to what happens when the kick drum starts

Gary Allan - A Showman's Life

to say nothing of heads getting in the way - a wonderful song though!

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,atb
Date: 12 Jul 12 - 11:35 AM

I don't have an objection to sound recordings, as long as they're unobtrusive and limited to just the singing. This is a social event where I go to relax and BS, and the glowing screen reminds me of work, my boss, and hey, is this going online where my boss might see it? Who knows.

I will ask him again to stop recording and see what happens.

I agree that the sound quality can't be great, and it's certainly nothing I would want to listen back to. Besides, no notes are allowed at the singing to enhance the "being in the moment" nature of the music. The glowing screen detracts from the feeling of all being there together sharing songs.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 06:37 AM

I'm going to have to strike a dissenting note - I don't see what the problem is. Of course it all depends on the nature of the performance. At a formal performance to which entry is by permission (regardless of size or whether or not a ticket is paid for) then both the performers and the organisers are entitled to set house rules which the audience should abide by (although in larger venues these can be difficult to police).

However in a pub session or singaround the situation is very different. In my view, if you are doing something in a public place then other people are equally entitled to record, video or photograph you. The law, in the UK at least, supports that. Now you are perfectly entitled to ask them not to, but not to demand it as of right. If you are uncomfortable with it, then it should be a matter for discussion and negotiation. Good manners comes into it, but frankly it would no more occur to me to ask permission of everyone in a session to record or photograph them than it would occur to me to ask permission of everyone in the pub to play music.

How the recordings are used is another matter, and if they are published then questions of copyright arise and the performer does have legal rights.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 09:21 AM

Howard - NO UK LAW DOES NOT SO SUPPORT. GO AND READ THE SECTIONS OF THE UK ACT THAT I HAVE CITED.

Also copyright does not only affect publishing - but, for the most part, reproduction.

If you are going to tell people about the law, please make some effort to learn at least some of it.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 02:52 PM

Who cares? If someone tries to sell or broadcast the tape, that's different, requiring approval of the group and a cut of the money.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 03:59 PM

For Americans, here's the advice of the ACLU KNOW YOUR RIGHTS WHEN TAKING PHOTOS AND MAKING VIDEO AND AUDIO RECORDINGS.

It basically says you can shoot anything that happens in a public place, but in on private property, even if the public has use of the property, the owner of the property has the right to grant or withhold permission.   

I would guess(but I am not a lawyer) that this right would be assumed by anyone granted use of the property, say by rent or lease, and that right could be excercised by someone who was an agent of the owner or lessor, which would be someone that they had engaged or given permission to run a session.

Anyway, you would have had a legal right to tell video boy to stop--did he stop when you asked?

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 06:38 PM

A glowing computer screen could be annoying. Maybe stick a tea towelover it if he can't or won't turn it off.

So far as the actual recording goes I'd be inclined to say "get a life".

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 07:29 PM

Anyone else not give a monkey's bloody Mickey?

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 08:32 PM

personally i think the videoing might put me off my stride and bugger up my confidence. So i think he would probs ruin my evening. On the other hand recording preserves the tradition. So on balance it may be a good thing. I should man up.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 05:24 AM

I used to film the old step dancers James Keane and Dan Furey at the Wilie Clancy Summer School - a major Irish music, song and dance festival inMiltown Malbay, Co. Clare. These became friends of mine. They freely let me film their steps for properity. Indeed one year we filmed the only surviving dancers of the crossed-stick dance the Yellow Haired Goat. Muiris Ó Rócháin and Harry Hughes the organisers knew what I was doing, it was OK for me because what I was doing was "all for the right reasons." However then the committe changed and I kept getting harrassed by the assertive stewards about 'breaking copyright' so I gave up. I never went back, especially after James and Dan passed away. And most of the footage from the 1990s will now never see the light of day, although it may evetually go to the National Music Archives in Dublin.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 05:53 AM

Richard, I stand corrected. However this appears to be an exception for musical performances to the general principle that (so far as I am aware, and I am basing this on advice on photography forums) it is lawful to take photographs and videos in a public place.

The Act is presumably intended to cover formal performances rather than the more casual sessions and singarounds which we are familiar with. Outside concert situations it is both impossible to enforce and often impossible to comply with - will the BBC have obtained consent from all the football fans whose singing it will broadcast on "Match of the Day"? More seriously, at sessions I go to it is common practice to record and video (usually on phones rather than with the full kit) but with numbers of musicians joining and leaving the session over time it would be impractical and disruptive to seek their individual consent. But in that context I have never heard anyone object or suggest that it is unacceptable.

Even if recording is unlawful, what steps can you take to stop it? The Act refers to the performer's rights being infringed, so presumably this is a civil matter in which the police would not get involved (although some of the responses (although some of the actions suggested in this thread could lead to a breach of the peace). Presumably the performer would have to take legal action for infringement after the event. Perhaps there's a sideline for you seeking instant injunctions on behalf of disgruntled musicians - I know a judge :)

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Jack's Rake
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 06:17 AM

Putting legality aside for a moment, we've had at least two well paid wedding bookings this year on the back of the pretty crap videos of us that people have posted on you-tube.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Atb
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 11:58 PM

We asked him straight up last night. Turns out he is streaming the video to the Internet. He did not offer up the name of the site and was defensive about it. But then, the whole table was chiming in to tell him they didn't like it. I had a talk with the bartender, who told me they know exactly who he is because he also never buys anything. He was only polite to him because the staff loves us (the Morris group.)

Bartender will be taking care of it next week.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:59 AM

"Legal schmegal: if you don't want to be taped, say so!"

As far as guest artists go most seem happy enough to be filmed but Dick Gaughan ammounced on mic before her started playing in Kelso that if he saw any videos or cameras recording him then the set would end immediately. He would walk off. I thought it was a funny one. Fair enough if he didn't want filmed but what about the paying public? Should they lose out because one person produces a camera? Don't know if he'd have followed through as it wasn't tested.

As far as normal floor singers go we do have a non playing member who shoots lots of videos of others which end up on youtube. Mostly good fun, and most memebers don't mind, but again there have been issues where she seems to think the filming is more important than the what she is filming. Even had a lengthy stand off situation with one member at the mic refusing to start until she very reluctantly put the camera down. Seems just plain manners and common sense (ie less confrontational)to have prior consent rather than it being up to the performer to opt out!

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:50 AM

One of the problems with filming is that it can be intrusive, when as Allan says the person thinks the filming is more important than what is being filmed. Simple sound recording should be less of a problem.

At Chelmsford Folk Club in the 1970s and 80s there was a lovely chap, Jim Etheridge, who would be there every week with his reel-to-reel recorder and a pair of stereo mics. He'd sit in the front row with this and recorded everything, guests and floorsingers alike. His tapes are now in the Essex County Archives.

It would be nice to think they might one day be digitised and made available but that seems unlikely, but at least the recordings exist. I think that's good thing. There must be some amazing stuff in there.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 03:51 AM

Over the years I've learned that only some of my recorded output sells CDs. Now I need the income from such sales to afford to do what I do so…if someone records those songs either onvideo or audio, why would they want to buy the CD? I know people who were about to go in the recording studio to record material that, although technically trad. has been evolved by several years work, only to find that the kid in the corner at the singing session has just recorded it having done the mobile phone trick two months earlier. Is this reasonable? I don't think it is.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:26 AM

Above CJB wrote the following:

Muiris Ó Rócháin and Harry Hughes the organisers knew what I was doing, it was OK for me because what I was doing was "all for the right reasons." However then the committe changed and I kept getting harrassed by the assertive stewards about 'breaking copyright' so I gave up.

which puzzles me a bit, the WCSS committee never really changed until Muiris' death last year. What did change was the establishment of a policy that says 'no professional video-ing or sound recordings allowed without prior permission', some time during the first half of the nineties (if I recall correctly).

It seems to me if Harry and Muiris were OK, permission would have been granted without problems when requested.

That said, 'assertive stewards' puzzles me as all working in the hall for the week are students from the local secondary school, 17-19 year olds. Hardly typical 'assertive stewards' with an awareness of copyright issues.

Finally and FWIW, I have been extensively photographing at WCSS events for maybe 20-25 years. Never received a dirty look or met an assertive steward.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 10:52 AM

are students from the local secondary school, 17-19 year olds. Hardly typical 'assertive stewards' with an awareness of copyright issues.


No reason they mightn't have been assertive enough, with or without knowledge of copyright laws, There are 17 to 19 year-olds happy to throw their weight about given a chance, just as there are of any age.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 11:16 AM

Well, not my experience during 33 years at that particular event.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 04:02 PM

I don't knpow this event - but I've come across some remarkably officious stewards at folk festivals in my time. Some people are like that.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 04:33 PM

Steward is not a title I would apply to them. They're a bunch of West of Ireland teenagers holding the door, letting people in and out during concerts nad lectures and keeping the hall organised (cleaning and arranging seating etc). I have never seen one behave officiously in all those years and the organisation doesn't encourage them to behave in that way either (my son has done the job a number of years). For that reason CJB's story surprised me. I am sure a quick word with the school directors would have sorted out the problem.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 21 Jul 12 - 04:45 PM

Guitly - I once told an innocent customer that he wasn't allowed to chain his bike to the wheelchair lift.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 12 - 02:00 PM

In the UK, the Data Protection Act covers the transmission to a third party (eg YouTube, or the Bluegrass Police, etc.) of images or recordings, and if you don't have permission of the subject, it's not kosher.

In terms of protocol, there's a difference between making an audio recording (on a 24-bit digital perhaps) that you intend to share with the performers in a folk club, and which I think most would be enthusiastic about, and making a video recording to add content to your own YouTube channel or whatever.

But if the OP is just wondering about recovering or deleting the stuff already recorded, I think the US equivalent of the Data Protection Act, if such exists, might be the way to go. And anyway, Google at least are very tight about disputed copyright if you were to complain about his online postings.

Subject: RE: Is it legal to video a group sing?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 07:44 AM

I think Paul Davenport's point about performers intellectual copywright and the need to make an income from one's creative endeavours are precisely the reasons for the nature of the UK law already cited in this thread. So at any event or gathering where such a recording may be made and then broadcast, the rules must apply.

So commonsense suggests that a YT the family singing "Happy Birthday" is not likely to be robbing someone of an income, though it may be embarrassing for any number of reasons and, given the wording of the Act a person thus embarrassed could mount a civil legal case and the person recording and broadcasting would have to prove that they had reasons to assume that consent had been given.

I do also appreciate the point made by Jake's Rake that a YT clip can be good publicity, but the important issue is about consent and that is an explicit part of the UK law.