I am humbled

Subject: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 12:42 PM

Last evening I went home with a jumble of thoughts spinning in my head, triggered after having read the Thought For The Day -OCT 17th thread…

'Spaw, I felt your pain, and wanted to reach out and hug you.

I also felt the love of all your friends in the MC Café, as they rallied around, reached out and sent you their wishes and well expressed thoughts.

It occurs to me that someone capable of such deep loving as you show, and someone who can laugh and joke as easily as I have observed in some of your posts, is a person who is also going to feel deep pain as well because they have the capacity for feeling, and freely expressing, deep emotions.

Mine are locked inside by a lifetime of being a 'man', and I've been working to overcome that.

You are loved here, and I just want to say that I am amazed, envious, and humbled… You are someone who I would be proud to call friend.

This is not to exclude the rest of you Mudcatters, for I'm beginning to feel the same warmth, concern, caring and intelligence that clearly shows through your postings. This is indeed a Special community, and I'm honoured to be here.

Davey…

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:01 PM

Davey, we have all, I think, at one time or another been humbled by Mudcat. Welcome and enjoy. It's a wonderful place to be.

Humbly, Love, annap

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:17 PM

Exactly what annap said. Davey, you are special, as well. This is simply an incredible community of such high calibre people it fair takes your breath away at times. We've all felt it and don't forget, "it takes one to know one".:-)

luvyaKatlaughing

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Margo
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:19 PM

Davey, I've heard before about men feeling they must not express emotion. Indeed, some of your unexpressiveness may be part of that stigma. But be careful that you aren't fighting part of who you are. I have come to see and understand that we're all different. My husband isn't afraid to show how he feels, but man is he silent! But it is part of his personality. I, on the other hand, wear my heart on my sleeve and express much, feel pain deeply, experience great highs. It seems to be part of my personality. I have been able to temper my impetuousness, but still I do everything with bravado. Yes, you have keenly observed 'Spaw's personality. I liken mine to his. (A fact of life, whether I like it or not :o)
Margo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:28 PM

This truly is a wonderful place. I have been enlightened, musically stretched, comforted, and occasionally reduced to helpless tears of laughter by this bunch. Vive la Cat! Mud is thicker than water!
Allison

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:40 PM

I am not really sure that the people here are that incredibly sensitive, intelligent, talented, loving, etc. What I certainly believe is that the Mudcat brings out the best in nearly all who come here... and so Long Live the Mudcat Cafe!!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 01:58 PM

I loved the 'nearly' Lej. ;-)

Lo.,A.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 02:13 PM

Davey, I think we all appreciate your thoughts and be assured that it is true.........we have ALL been humbled here at times. And I don't think we're such fine folks necessarily either, but we are all pretty honest and recognize our own fallacies and foibles...but we've found a little place where we can do that and get support instead of lectures from the world's "dumbass population" which knows everything and is all too happy to share their vast knowledge with you.

I'm awful glad you're here myself, many of your postings show great insight and I'm proud to have friends like you. Cleigh sends his best.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 11:04 PM

Nah, we're just a bunch of ordinary wackos who found a great place to come out to play. I think this is how the rest of the world would look if enough people felt safe enough to express themselves deeply and to be as eccentric as we all are anyway. We're the ones who decided not to become completely buttoned down, or who know we can loosen the buttons when we come visit the Mudcat.

In fact... here, let me loosen a couple of yours...

WW

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: _gargoyle
Date: 20 Oct 99 - 11:56 PM

something to be expected from a "Davey"

It is doubtful you would find such amongst the Davids or a Daves of the world.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:50 AM

I am so happy to have found you too, folks!
Yours, Andrés Magré

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 03:06 AM

Gargoyle, how true! My grandfather, father, and older brother were all Davids or Daves--and they all had problems opening up to others. My brother, who died last year, was probably the most open, but he died without being able to communicate on the issues between us (I'm no better--I was never able to bring them up.)

seed

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 07:09 AM

Davey, we all get bottled up with our emotions; some more than others. It's an odd thing. I can feel so much love for another person, but when I go stand beside them I actually watch the layers of fluff start accumulating around me until it feels like l'm wearing a coat of armor.
At the Mudcat it is easier for me to express myself because I don't get overwhelmed and blown over by someone else's physical presents. I'd say you're doing a pretty good job yourself, expressing your feelings and how much you care for the others.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:41 AM

Davey, the essence of Manhood, in my mind, is being able to express all facets of one self. There is no use denying our essence. We were made with excessive amounts of testosterone, we are bigger and stronger and so on. That is our place in the scheme. But somehow, over the course of time we have become confused. We feel that to express our strength, we must never seem soft. We ignore what we knew instinctively as children. Ever watch a 11 or 12 year old boy take care of a little child. Protective, yet gently. Loving to the max. I had always wished that I would have had a son, that I might teach him what manhood is really about. Many that I see do fine in teaching about the masculine aspects to manhood, but completely ignore the feminine side of the young man. It is OK for us to feel our softness, as long as we don't forget our toughness as well. Done right, it seems to me, and you end up with a man that can fight like hell, when needed, yet cry at a sad song. Summon strength when needed, yet be gentle as lambs in the main. Answer aggression in an umcompromising way, yet seek peace at every opportunity. I am rambling here, but

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:45 AM

(not sure what happened there, it just submitted by itself)but, I would love to have attempted to guide a young man to adulthood, fully in touch with all aspects of himself. And fully aware of the beauty to be found in others. Making judgements based on his own senses, and not the perceptions others try to put on us........I don't know, just wandering here......................Mick

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:41 AM

Whew, Mick, you write as if it is all over, but it ain't over till its over, to launch a cliche (judging by the eyewitness testimony reported here, you ought to be able to persuade some young lady to help you further this admirable project)!! I speak not as a mocker, but as perhaps a fellow hoper for future triumph over previous experience!

Your thoughts are admirable; but life is perverse enough that if you did get a son, he would probably want to be a Green Bay Packer. ("Shit, I had one of those goddam sensitive fathers, you know the music playing, cooking types, always helping others, what a dope, makes you want to puke, pass me my rifle"). Most parents' dreams for their children seem to me to run up against the little bastards' perverse habit of having their own personalities. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:58 AM

Love your thoughts Mick. But you can of course just keep rearing wonderful daughters for those other young men to find.**BG**

Peter--Do you remember the Lenny Bruce line? "One generation saves and scrimps to buy raincoats and rubbers for their kids on a rainy day, and when it comes the kid sits out under a tree without either and digging the lightning."

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: MMario
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:01 AM

A bit of thread creep, but as a man,no, as a PERSON(!) I OBJECT to the notion that somehow it is "un-natural" or "feminine" to be a nurturing, caring person and male. and yes, I take it personaly. Having helped rear two children in the household I live in, plus approximetly 443 others I have interacted with enough to feel some "claim" emotionally; watched my brothers with THEIR kids, and friends with theirs, DAMMIT! Men ARE nurturing, at least when they care enough to buck social mores a bit and express it. (For that matter, I've met more then a few women who are about as nurturing as rocks)

*putting soapbox away*

MMario

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:42 AM

MMario, I agree. It isn't your "feminine" side that makes you loving and gentle, it's your human side. Somewhere along the line, someone decided to separate out human characteristics and assign them to a specific sex. It's a case of making a sex fit the description instead of the other way around. Thank goodness not everyone has bought into it.

Davey, don't try to fit into anyone's mold. Just be you, and learn to recognize when you're fighting with yourself. Your very words tell me you're not as locked up as you may think -"I felt your pain, and wanted to reach out and hug you." Here's my hug!

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:53 AM

For some interesting perspective on this, read "Real Boys," that describes the ever-tightening "gender straight-jacket" American boys find themselves in. There's such pressure to conform to this ideal of the man as the sturdy oak, or one made of emotional granite, coupled with an equal and opposite demand from females that boys be sensitive and thoughtful, etc. It's pretty hard to be Claude van Damme and Winky Tinky all at the same time. We have a lot of trouble in this country with finding the Middle Path, don't we?

WW

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:04 PM

Very good point MMario, my mom was a rock and my dad was a mush ball (yep, both are was, gone a long time ago when I was a littler tot that I am now).
If Dad hadn't been such a mush ball, I would have needed a chisel to find my heart.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:43 PM

Obviously it IS a human thing, but we have molded the roles into what they've become and I don't think many 'Catters would believe the societal "norm" as we're a non-conforming kid of group--folkies.

Karen and I are hardly "normal" American family......and I know a lot of people look at us as though she is supporting a bum.........well that's true but its not what I meant..........

I have always found that women in general can take things in stride better than men can....kinda' like Ma said in "Grapes of Wrath." And in general, I've noticed that men, myself definitely included, never handle being sick as well as women do. Christ, I get a cold or something and I whine around like a baby. This leads to a favorite story.

A few years ago when I had bypass surgery, I'd been feeling bad for a long time and worrying that I had heart problems, but not wanting to admit it. WARNING: If you think you're sick see a doctor! I didn't of course as I was worried that people would think I was somehow weaker (male thing) if I had a heart problem. Live and learn...fortunately I did.

In any case, I'd been moaning and whining around for days and Karen finally was totally exasperated since this seemed no different than my reaction to a cold or the flu. She said, "Look, if you're sick, let's go to the ER." It was a weekend and my doctor was gone. So we pack up the kids and off we go to the ER. Karen goes in ahead of me herding 5 kids and I follow along. We barely get in the door and were just walking to the check in desk when the ER Triage guy, who was standing in the hallway, breezes past Karen and the crew and says, "Sir, let me get you a wheelchair....Let's get this man back to # 8 STAT!!!" Karen turns and thinks (as she will tell you herself)"Christ maybe I need to take another look at him..Maybe he IS sick!" She felt really bad about it, but to me, I thought it was funnier than hell!!! Like the kid crying wolf I guess.

If you're a whining sickie, maybe you need a "Forehead Sticker" saying,

"I Whine Once If I'm Normal---Twice If I'm Having A Heart Attack"

Spaw

Subject: Lyr Add: LAYLA, LAYLA
From: Barbara
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 12:57 PM

LAYLA, LAYLA

1. The eyes of baby behold everything from under
The eyes of a young man behold his lover's face with wonder
The eyes of an old man look upon the flowing river
What of those whose eyes are one? They leave this wheel forever.

CHO: Layla, layla, this world is but a game.
Winners lose and losers win, and the game is still the same.
Layla, Layla, this life is but a play;
Those who say don't know and those who know don't say.

2. Where is the man who in his heart can really feel it?
Can he feel it in his heart and then can he reveal it?
Let him sit and sing, and face the flowing river
Snakes and arrows cannot go where sound remains forever.

Chorus

3.How can a man accept life who cannot accept dying?
How can a man achieve his purpose without ever trying?
How can a man have courage who cannot as well be tender?
He who wins is he who is learning to surrender.

4. Where is the man who in his heart can really feel it?
Can he feel it in his heart and then can he reveal it?
Let him sit and sing, and let his heart be gladder
Chants to God until the masquerade no longer matters.

Last Chorus: Layla Layla, this world is but a game
Winners lose and losers win,
And the game is still the same
Layla Layla, this life is but a play
God will not forget the one who sings his name.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Barbara
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:00 PM

Chorus between each verse, including 3 and 4.
I dunno about the world, but I sure appreciate a man who is open and shares about his feelings.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:26 PM

Barbra yur a gud woman even ifn you did make thet stupid possum Catspaw prizes so much. An senz Ima feller what doan care bout tellin yall my problems, I wuzza wundrin ifn ya cud sen me sum new longhandle droors...Catspaw keeps askin folks, but I was thinkin that mebbee I shud jez ax myselv an be right open bout the thing. See, my buttons is popped and I oanly got the wun pair an all an the laundromat folks is complainin bout my bein nekkid when I worsh em ever munth or so.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:34 PM

We treat the concepts of male and female as if they are so monolithic

But what it means to be a man comprises wisdom, sympathy, compassion, commitment, desire, ambition, thirst for justice, anger at injustice, intellect, passion, the thrill of doing something well, and having done it well the desire to do it even better, the drive to learn and pass on what one has learned, protectiveness, putting one's self at risk for a higher principal, sacrifice, revel in competition, revel in compromise, revel negotiation, setting an example that others want to follow, living for the future, sexual desire, loyalty, cunning, cleverness, mischief, aggressiveness, single-mindedness, humor, being an intellectual challenge, being a father, being a lover, being a friend, Being impartial, being rational, being irrational...etc...etc...etc...

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:58 PM

Very few men realize these things and go through life acting the part thats expected of them. I've always been involved with the (please excuse this expression - NOI)blue collar type of man, including my father, who was an Italian baker from Italy. You can't get more macho than that.

I discovered that, even though they denied it and refused to acknowledge a gentleness, it was there. I have been trained to respond to that gentleness without letting them know I know they're gentle. Silly, huh!

I think I see it more in some men than others and that may be what makes me fall in love.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 02:41 PM

Mis annap, I luv ya an right now Ime a no collar guy cuz botha my shirtz is frayed up purty bad. But see my problem ain't reely withen the shirtz az much az sittis with my longhandle droors. So mebbee you cud sen me summa yer LuvOnLine but inclewd sum nu droors too.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 03:26 PM

Cletus, I can give you lolol (Lots Of Luv On Line) but to get those droors, you'll have to drag ole 'spaw down here to Jersey ta git em.

LOL, annap

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:13 PM

One of the best descriptions of male pathology ever was someone's description of an unlamented prime minister of Canada named Brian Mulroney (a scummy bastard). He was once referred to as a "fragile father" -- the kind of male who had a front, which if it ever broke, he would fall to pieces like a guy with glass legs. I think this is part of what makes some men wary of tinkering with their fathers' emotions -- they suspect that so much energy has gone into holding the front up that there would be nothing, or an avalanche behind. But there are reticent fathers who are not fragile, just wary of expressing any emotion that isn't absolutely honest. They grew up in a world where talk was cheap, and they watched buddies die for other people's rhetoric. They may drive extroverts crazy, but ---

I don't know about the current middle aged generation of men, being one myself, but by and large they don't seem to me to be as confused as the newspapers and the chatterers seem to be making out. Or what are they being compared to -- who isn't confused? After a lifetime of hating men (everyone I grew up with I despised), and loving women (still clearly the best, not to mention the fringe benefits), I have grudgingly come around to the position that they are human, by and large. I have no idea why women are attracted to them, which is completely mysterious to me, but who I am to complain?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:24 PM

Men give us some fringe benefits too Peter T. They fix things around the house, and give us women a good reason to clean the bathroom. Things like that.
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: MMario
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:35 PM

There are women who clean bathrooms? when they live in the same household as a man? There are ACTUALLY WOMEN who DON'T make the men clean the bathroom because "it's all their mess?"

I'm telling this to my whole family! Our wives,sister-in-laws; sisters and Mom have been lying to us our entire lives!

MMario

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:39 PM

MMario, wait, let me get this straight.
You are telling me there are men on this planet living with women who clean the bathroom?.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:48 PM

Yes, MMario, it is all a pack of lies. They actually prefer whichever way you put in the toilet roll, too. They like the trail of grease across the kitchen floor when you have brought something over from the garden or up from the basement to clean it -- it gives the house character. They don't like the sofa, it's all yours. They are particularly fond of those fractional breaks in concentration during rapid changes of the channel flicker. It is all lies. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: annamill
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:50 PM

I love men. I hate man bashing. I love having a man around to cuddle with, amongst other things. ...but I don't clean bathrooms!! Well, I'm lucky, I can afford a housekeeper, or that bathroom would get preeetttyy bad. In the words of a now deceased Puerto Rican actor "It ain't my job".

I find some men very interesting, Peter. There are too many things about men that I find attractive to list them all here. It would be an interesting list though.

Love, annap

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:59 PM

annap, I would love to see a list. It has always been a big puzzle to me. I mean really, no contest. Guys are O.K. but you wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with them -- they are pretty boring, for a start, and not very deep. (I mean no offence to members of the gay population, but what do you see in each other??????).
Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 05:00 PM

I didn't mean to provoke any men bashing here either Annap
My list of what attracts me to them is pretty long too.
But now that I've learned there are some breeds that do washrooms, well, hey, my attraction list has now grown longer

Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 05:15 PM

Peter T. This is how I would answer your question.
I would create a list of all the qualities I seek in myself. Things I aspire to as being a good human being. When I find these same qualities in a man, it tends to attract me. Mix these qualities with magic, and poof, you have love.
That's how I see it
Little Neo

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 06:08 PM

Well, I seemed to have opened up a can of worms, well, actually a most informative and stimulating discussion. I'd like to reply to some of you.

Annap & Kat, thanks for your kind words.. and yes, I like it here. .

Margarita, you mentioned a stigma, and while it may be partly that, it's more likely being raised by a military father (showed no emotion) and a strongly baptist mother (kept her feelings to herself).. While both, particularly my father, freely expressed opinions, it was done in such a way as to preclude discussion.. So I had no role models who were able to demonstrate that it was OK to show your feelings. Intellectually I recognize that it's OK but I haven't had the emotional training. .

Wyo, I'd be delighted if you'd loosen a couple of my buttons, but only if I can recriprocate. .

GG.. Do you come here only to make provocative comments to get a rise out of people? .

Lil Neo, it's much easier to express things here when I have time to think out what I want to say than it is to be spontaneous when talking face to face with someone. That's the part (well, one of them anyway) that I have to work on. .

Mick, right on with your description of the facets of who a man (better make that a HUMAN) should be. Would that we all could be that way, the world would be a far better place and this discussion would be off on a far different topic. .

Jeri, thanks for the hug, and one right back to you ( ) I don't fit a mold, in fact, I think both my family (3 brothers and a sister) and those I work with (all considerably younger than I) look on me as a bit of an oddball. I'm not gregarious and outgoing, in fact the opposite, but I just can't get excited talking about sports or last night's TV episode, as I watch about one or two hours every week. I'd much rather discuss politics, the growing gap between the well off and the poor in this world and what to do about it, how religions are stifling peoples minds, in short, real solid topics that can make a difference. .

'Spaw, I can relate to not wanting to seem a 'whiner'.. I still do it. .

Jack, what you describe about what it means to be a man applies to being a human…..

PeterT .. I think you are right about some people keeping a 'front' that, if broken, would shatter them. They are so caught up in being who they think they should be, or who their parents think they should be, that they haven't found out who they want to be themselves. There is another perception among some people, also, that it doesn't do to challenge people's beliefs too strongly because 'they are who they are' or some such idea. My partner, in fact, expresses a sentiment from time to time when I suggest she challenge someone on an issue. It can be difficult, as I went through a process of being on the receiving end of such a challenge to my beliefs over a period of 2 years. It was a difficult, and painful, struggle but I came out of it with a different view of the world, not as blinkered and naïve as I had been, and a stronger person for it. .

Lil Neo and Anna, I'd love to see your lists as well. 'Spaw, yew need ta git yerself sum of that there thred stuff, and a needul, and learn yerself how ta sew. Then yew can fix yer longhandled drawers 'n not have ta keep on a-pesterin the ladies…. Mind yew, if'n they wuz willin' to do the mendin' and even help with personal fittins, then I' likely be a-changin my tune some…..

Thank yew all… Davey :>)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:54 PM

JackwicJ: I like your description and feel it is applicable to women, too, except for the being a good father bit, except I know single moms and was one, once, who have had to be both mom and pop.:-)

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:00 PM

Interesting bathroom discussion...Karen cleans the showers and tubs, I clean the crappers.....to hell with the rest of it.

And Davey, that's just Cletus using my computer when I'm not around. He's a good ol boy who a lot of Catters know. He and Paw and Buford and the Reg boys hang out around my house making pests of themselves when things are slaow at the condrum factory. If you check the Jargon thread I think you can find out all about them. The Reg boys are actually Fielding's half brothers, 3 of them...all named Reg.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From:
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:27 PM

Jer a quick larn - ain ja Davey?

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Davey
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:39 PM

Anonymous.. What am I supposed to make of that? You sound a lot like GG. There have been discussions about anonymous posters, and I can see why.. You can say anything you want, be as obscure as you wish, and hide behind your anonymity (had to get out the dictionary for that one).. So come out of yer hole and be a little more mature.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 11:22 PM

Davey--

I forgot I wasn't in the tavern. Oops.

WW

P.S. Yer on.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: harpgirl
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 09:53 AM

..I sit with grown men who cry in my office every day...they cry that they can't support their children if they are injured...they cry when their wives betray them with a lover...they cry when they get fired...they cry over chronic pain from on-the-job injuries...they cry when they lose fathers they never spoke intimately with...they cry when they finally marry and wish their mom was alive to see them being good husbands...they cry when they surpass their fathers dreams for them and when they fall short...they cry about the buddies they saw blown to bits in war...if only we could raise them in such a way that they could have an easier time sharing their deepest feelings...we do them a great disservice when we expect them to be invincible and all-powerful and all-knowing...I like and respect men....harpgirl

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: WyoWoman
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 10:39 AM

I've worked for almost 20 years in various newsrooms as a reporter and, for the past ten years or so as an editor. In each of those newsrooms there's been at least one man, usually two or three, who become what I refer to privately as my "brothers." (I can't just come out and say, "I love you, man," for a variety of reasons, but I do care a great deal for them.) I wasn't raised around boys, and my father was gone a lot, so I've always lived in very female environments. However, these newsroom guys occur emotionally to me the way I think brothers probably do -- irreverent, funny, sly, good-hearted but not with hearts on sleeves, sometimes just plain obnoxious, often helpful in a "guy" way -- and they have from the get-go helped me survive.

In the first two newsrooms where I worked, I was the only woman or only one of two women, so having this benign-butthead energy was a saving grace for me. Sometimes, as you can imagine, a newsroom can get to be a very hairy place -- stories that tear your guts out, deadlines that make you tear your hair out, angry people who seem to want to tear your heart out -- so having someone with just the right touch of gallows humor and down-deep goodness can make all the difference. It's a great compliment to me that they consider me one of the guys, and that my womanliness is in no way diminished by that view of me.(At the paper where I now work, my three "brothers" are also musicians. We get together occasionally to jam and we kid about starting a band called the Phirst Amendment. What do you think? ;-> )

On the other hand, I may have gone too far to *their* side. I sometimes get really impatient with people, mostly women, who always want to "process" everything, and who seem to think feeling matters as much as doing. I'm very action-oriented, and at this point I don't know if that's because I've spent my entire adult life in newsrooms, or if I gravitated to newsrooms because of that orientation.

At any rate, having guy-friends helps keep me balanced and I allow them, through word and deed, to coach me.

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:33 AM

All interesting. I lived in a house for awhile at university in England with a girlfriend who shared the house with 6 other females. After about 3 months, they sort of forgot that I was there, I turned into a brother or a tame animal and the whole environment changed. It got anthropologically very interesting. There were all these weird rhythms and crises and marathon talkfests and status fights and mutual what I can only call nitpicking and temperature taking that were nothing like guys in groups ever work like. I learned an incredible amount: it was also the first time in my life that it occurred to me that being surrounded by women all the time might not be total heaven!
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: MMario
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 11:59 AM

PeterT--sounds a little like growing up with 5 sisters...

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Clifton53
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:24 PM

Harpgirl,excellent summation of men's lives. I work in a factory where the macho posturing is almost comical, that is, if it weren't so sad. No one there would be caught dead crying, or even admit to having cried in the past,unless it was a grieving situation.

But you are right,when we get in this place of others depending on us, we circle the wagons, and feelings be damned. Men do indeed cry, I think as we get older it gets easier to do so. But nobody in the general population is going to see it. Why? We are raised to be that way, and sharing intimacy between each other is not only uncommon, we are taught it is unmanly. And we all wear the mask of the beast when we really want to lay down and let it go.

The child is father to the man. Clifton

Subject: RE: I am humbled
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:29 PM

Very interesting Wyo Woman. I tend to operate on a complete feeling basis. But at the same time it doesn't mean I need to process everything I feel. I am also action oriented, it's just all my action are based on feeling the right thing to do, and then doing it. It's kind of nontangible, logicless, unanalytical thinking.
I don't think my way is common, and someone who doesn't know me very well may assume I'm whimisical, but I do get many concrete, practical things completed.

People who have a need to endlessly process issues, can end up creating just that, an Endless processing of the issues

Little Neo