BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 04:54 AM

That was way more than a page, Joe! At any rate, I wasn't really satisfied with the numbers they gave-it seems likely to me, for a lot of reasons, that a high percentage of the homeless kids are LGBTQ, but I'd really like to see solid numbers from some kind of broad survey.

Statistics on homelessness come from the point-in-time count that HUD requires all providers who receive federal funding to make, but there there is no sexual preference info, and though the count asks questions about causes of homelessness, none of the options relate to LGBTQ issues.

I don't mean to be a wonk about this, but over the years, in a variety of different circumstances, I've encountered homeless adolescents, and I know that there are a great many of them. The thing is, they don't fit into the typical idea of "homeless" which tends toward "homeless shelter" families that the press love to write about around the holidays, and that notorious older "substance abuser/mentally ill" population. They are the forgotten of the forgotten, and they shouldn't be.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 04:42 AM

Some great posts there mando man. LBGT took a bit of working out, but I got there. lesbian, bisexual, gay, transexual - yeh? Very sad about parents. I guess they're not happy with what they got. My parents wanted a doctor part time athlete - they got a guitar playing something or other.

Talking of Dominus Vobiscum


http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/lifehistoryandsongsof/id27.html

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 03:20 AM

This page gives a lot of information about LGBT youth, and clarifies the 30% figure given by mando-player 91. It might be more accurate to say that somewhere between 30 and 40 percent of big-city homeless youths identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. Whatever the case, it's a large number.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 01:59 AM

mando-player-91. I am curious where that 30% figure comes from. The number bandied about tends to be around 20%, and that is qualified as "adolescent, who are a homeless population that is very elusive because they often don't connect with the usual homeless services.

Anyway, thanks for reminding us that there are a lot of LGBTQ kids out on the street. They are a vulnerable, at risk group, and, amidst all the talk about the sanctity of marriage and all the Ake-nonsense, very much ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:37 PM

30% of homeless Americans are LBGT because their families all disowned them.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: PHJim
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:58 PM

I always wonder how some of these anti-gay folks would react to hearing that their child or grand-child was gay.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,mando-player-91
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:30 PM

Being gay is in no way a abomination how could someone even think that? As both gay myself and seeing all this hate and misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions about us LBGT I have to say this. We are all born this way we didn't chose to be gay or lesbian or bi-sexual or transgender. If there is a god and he created us then he created us LGBT. This is not a life style or we are not confused . Being gay is a gift from god.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:25 PM

Si. (I used Italian because Latin has no yes, and yes, it has no no.)

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:08 PM

Oremus.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:01 PM

Et cum spiritu tuo.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:46 PM

Dominus vobiscum.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:43 PM

Amen!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:35 PM

A great old Catholic priest that married my daughter once said in his sermon when someone asked him if Gay people are all sinners ...He said, King David also had 500 wives. Perhaps the bible isn't a very good source to consult on sexual matters ...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:23 PM

I agree with you Ebbie. As to Tunesmith, here is commentary on the real meaning of "the big dangerous fairytale"--I would figure the Rabbi Hillel was a better judge of the Bible than you.

Hillel and the Golden Rule

"Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:26 PM

Don... good stuff. Unfortunate that so many uneducated and inbred idiots don't understand same. Leads to some pretty bad stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:15 PM

I will never forget the time Pastor Shannon Anderson of Central Lutheran Church in Seattle held up a copy of the Bible and said firmly, "This is not the Boy Scout Manual. It is not a book of answers. It is a book of questions!"

Not a collection of "Final Answers," but a book that raises topics for discussion

In "The Bible as Literature" course that I took in the English Department at the U. of Washington many years ago, it was treated as a collection of legends and folk tales, much as in the previous quarter, we had studied "Beowulf." If one wished to discuss it as a religious book, those discussions had to take place outside the class.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:12 PM

God is a man, not a woman of any sexual persuasion.

A woman wouldn't leave all this shit around.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 07:57 PM

Tunesmith, when you write off the Bible as "just one big - dangerous - fairy tale," you scare me. I gather then, that you think it should be suppressed. As with many significant books, the danger lies in how they are read. The Bible is a fascinating - and valuable - collection of literature that covers the period from about 1200 BCE to 150 CE. It chronicles the story of deeply flawed people who sought to live their lives in a sometimes-rocky relationship with That Which Is Beyond. As such, it's a fascinating thing to study, and it's relevant to many who seek that same relationship.

But yes, if it's viewed as a Guide to Correct Thinking, it's dangerous. Any book that is seen as being meant to govern how people think, is dangerous. But it's not really the book that's dangerous - it's the attitude that is the danger.

I see the Bible as a chronicle of struggles and mistakes and contradictions, with a good bit of wisdom mixed in for those who can pick it out. I really don't think it attempts to dictate how people should live or how they should think.

But there are people who are afraid to think their own thoughts - if they don't get their Guide to Thinking in the Bible, they'll find some other crutch that will allow them to avoid thinking for themselves.

As to the original subject, homosexuality, I think it's clear in the Bible that at some times during the period from 1400 BCE to 150 CD, homosexuality was frowned upon. But since it really isn't mentioned in the Bible with much frequency or much vehemence, I'd reckon that it really isn't something for religious people to bother getting all upset about. Jesus got very upset about hypocrisy, and didn't say anything at all about homosexuality. Perhaps the message is that hypocrisy is the far greater sin?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:13 PM

I've often wondered why any sane person wouldn't think that the Bible is just one big - dangerous - fairy tale."punk,etc

To my mind, as long as people persist in altruism, or responding to music or falling in love, there will be belief in a higher power. We can all agree that the non-physical is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM

no one has offered proof that god was not a lesbian

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:05 PM

Joe Offer says
   
    "I've often wondered if the authors of the Bible intended it to be read as literally as many people read it today"

Well, I've often wondered why any sane person wouldn't think that the Bible is just one big - dangerous - fairy tale.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:28 PM

..and for the benefit of objective perspective...


In the UK there is apparently a significant rise in STD infections
amongst senior citizens,
resulting from a misapprehension that as pregnancy is no longer a risk
there is no need for using condoms !!!???


the daft old fuckers...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM

Olddude, what if you eventually discover that Jello is angels's food? Huh? Huh? Boy, are you going to feel silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:44 AM

Jell-o is an abomination to God

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:14 AM

Sexually transmitted disease is spread
by all kinds of ignorant selfish stupid irresponsible people
indulging in unsafe & unhygienic sexual activity.

Is that something we can all agree on ?


I ain't sucking anyone's cheesey toes
or sticking my fingers, tongue & knob in any bumholes
no matter how much someone might want me to....

and most definitely vice versa...

..my feet and arse are rank at the best of times........

In fact my mrs* is best off keeping well away from my dry scaly grimy knees as well !!!



[* not much real likelyhood anybody else would be interested these days anyway...]

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:06 AM

The statistics that giovanni is wrapping him or herself in have to include that more women become HIV positive than men.

Ignorance of AIDS and HIV was a huge issue for the gay community years ago in the same way that dirty instruments were an issue in surgery before we understood contamination. Doesn't mean surgery is an abomination to God or any other abstraction.

Said statistics include the shorter relationship time in gay partnerships than heterosexual ones. It would appear that lack of acceptance by society exacerbates fragile relationships.

So.. using statistics, and for once in the guise of a "lefty" whatever, will you and Akenaton please stop spreading AIDS?   It's your poisoning of society against a lifestyle that makes relationships less stable after all.....

zzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:55 AM

"being drawn into a lifestyle which - statistically - is not good for them"

Fucking someone with HIV is not lifestyle, it's stupidity. The stats do show that HIV infection is high in the homosexual population, but more factors could be in play than just where one's pecker ends up. While there has been concerted effort to warn people about HIV and transmission methods and said virus, there has been little effort to go beyond token 'out-reach' programs to the homosexual communities scattered around the world. Some countries impose a death sentence for being homosexual.

People have never felt truly comfortable (please note that this is a broad brush I'm painting with) mixing with other people outside their belief system, 'ethnic' group, linguistic experience, sexual comfort zone, etc. However, attitudes that isolate people do not help address the problem, whatever that problem is. IMO, when it comes to disease it is a worldwide concern, just like nuclear, biological and chemical warfare weapons. Not a problem that belongs to any specific group(s) of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:52 AM

The lifestyle I refer to is not the clean-living lifestyle of many (the majority of?) homosexuals - the lifestyle I refer to is the careless promiscuity practised by those who make the statistics so heavily weighted towards those who will have a suffering life ahead of them.

You may not think they should be warned of the dangers, but I do.

What are you afraid of? - the stats clearly show there is a problem, and you can't begin to help with a problem if for your own reasons you try to deny its existence.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:13 AM

".... being drawn into a lifestyle...."

er, no....please educate yourself about homosexuality - ignorance is dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:09 AM

Akenaton, it's clear they are, in reality, unhappy with the statistics, but lefty dogma won't allow them to admit it to themselves. In the resultant mental confusion, they lash out at the messenger.

I know the childish abuse doesn't bother you, even though they may think it does.

I wonder how people can make such loud howls of protest with their heads so firmly in the sand? - it's not about god, not about homophobia, not about anything except protecting innocents against being drawn into a lifestyle which - statistically - is not good for them.

Same goes for the drugs scene - it's the job of the responsible part of society to speak out to protect the vulnerable. It's how responsible communities work.

On a lighter note, I loved Steve Shaw's post at 6.08 on the 12th!

g

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 09:47 AM

Now, if only level-headed religious people were in the majority.......

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:32 AM

Joe, I am just coming to the end of Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", which is well written, well documented and beautifully argued. My Agnosticism is moving towards Atheism. However, when I read level headed, sensible posts like your last one, I am reminded that I have nothing to fear from the majority of level headed religious people. Thank-you for an illumintating post.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:45 AM

A flow chart with a similar message to that of the letter.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 08:50 PM

Well, EBarnacle, when you have a mystically significant number like 40, the meaning is more significant than the actual passage of time. 40 indicates a time of retreat and reflection. But note that in the story, the people spent about a year traveling from Egypt to Palestine - and 39 years settled at the base of Mount Sinai (wherever that was). Guesstimates are that the Exodus took place about 1200 BCE. The stories were passed alone orally for three or four hundred years before they first appeared in written form, and then the Pentateuch went through maybe another three hundred years of editing and rewriting before it got to more-or-less its current form. Some say the current form of the Pentateuch dates back to sometime after the return from Babylon, which was in 535 BCE.
Some say that Exodus is as much a retelling of the exile in Babylon, as it is an account of the exile in Egypt. At the very least, I think it can be said that the Exodus event, as written, is seen through the eyes of those who have more recently experienced the trauma of the exile in Babylon.
This all makes the Bible a fascinating document to study. We tend to forget, however, that it is an ancient document produced in an ancient context. You just can't take it off the shelf and let every preacher with a dimestore diploma use it as a book of instructions for daily living. There is much in the Bible that is clear and quite inspiring - but there's a lot that demands a great deal of scholarship to approach any level of understanding.
So when people tell me that the Bible prohibits homosexuality and a bunch of other stuff they don't like, I politely change to topic of discussion.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 11:26 AM

Thinking about what Joe said--The writers did not intend to have every word of the Torah taken literally. Yes and no.

People who would take a bunch of ex-slaves, have them abide in a desert for 40 years would tend to be rather strong minded, almost certainly of a fundamentalist bent and would expect everyone they brought out the other side to be as strongly adherent to the olde faith as they were. They knew they were forging a people out of malleable clay. They knew they were forming a way of life for generations to follow.

That said, it has been demonstrated that there were several writers or committees which produced various books of the Bible, including the Pentateuch. How could we not expect there to be inconsistencies based upon the interests and prejudices of the individual writers.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 08:12 AM

Well - She told me she was straight....

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 07:38 AM

god is a lesbian can anyone prove otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 06:31 AM

while we may be influenced by the climate of the times - see the different reception a racist comedian will get today compared to 50 years back - the church is supposed to be about eternal truths. bigotry, slavery, child abuse eg may be acceptable in some countries and at some times - if the role of the churches is not to give us moral guidance about our way of treating each other, then what is it for? the roman catholic church, having supported fascism in the 1940s, can't lecture anyone about morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM

yes Pete - its wrong. But that wasn't quite so obvious fifty years ago - the climate of opinion was different. And some of us got indoctrinated very deeply. Give the child til seven, and all that stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 05:28 AM

(cockermouth - a town as delightful as it sounds)

intolerance of all our differences is just wrong surely. if we try to bring our imaginary big best friend into the argument to punish the different people - it's just bullying and makes your best friend as much of a mean-spirited bigot as you are. you may be able to live with that but isn't the big best friend supposed to be perfect?

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 04:39 AM

'I think that it is a touching testimony to your love for Ake that you invest so much effort in him, when there is such a slim chance of his salvation.'

Judge not, lest you be judged (Matthew 6)
(in my opinion the toughest injunction in the Sermon on the Mount.)


Our love for Ake and all the people who put up with our occasionally nasty behaviour on Mudcat is quite unconditional. You simply don't understand the climate of opinion that we grew up with - re homosexuality. When we were kids it had the same kind of opprobrium reserved for paedophiles nowadays.

Some of us change. We reject our parents values - we realise that we are living in a different world that our parents lived in - the truths that they took to be unalterable went in the dustbin like last weeks newspaper.

For reasons of social and geographical mobility (and remember Britain is a class ridden country) some people don't change much. most of us don't change enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 12:11 AM

Hi, Ake. Just letting you know you owe me a message. Trust things are well.

B

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 11:02 PM

Having spent some time on Mudcat, I know that Akenaton can be counted on to recite his decidedly homophobic views at the drop of a hat. I suspect he's going to change them the day after Bobert votes for Mitt Romney.

I think that it is a touching testimony to your love for Ake that you invest so much effort in him, when there is such a slim chance of his salvation.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 08:30 PM

"Women were not allowed to own property."

Holy shit! My ex... ahhh, nevermind. Sad story.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 07:28 PM

As I understand it, ancient Jewish law was about inheritance not morality.
If a man died and had no son, his brother was expected to "Lie with" her and produce a son. That son was then declared the son of the dead man. It was all about inheritance. Women were not allowed to own property.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 07:25 PM

homophobia (n)- the fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 05:58 PM

Ake: "Bill...As you know, I dont deal in hypotheticals.

Well, that seems to me a clear evasion of an important question. You can collect all the facts you wish... and even if I agree that you have found accurate ones, the question remains.... for ALL those who decry homosexuality: "What difference would it make if HIV/AIDS were totally defeated?"

For many, it would make NO difference, as they totally oppose it on biblical/moral grounds. You, however, dwell on the health issues as your main concern. Very commendable, I'm sure... and I doubt that anyone here who debates you will dispute that health issues are extremely relevant and important.
What seems to draw all the fire IS that you constantly evade questions like mine and just seem to 'suggest' that homosexuals should... what?... change their behavior? Quit BEING gay? I ask how a cure and/or vaccination would affect how.. or whether.. you view the situation. I'm sorry, but " I dont deal in hypotheticals. doesn't say much.

This thread didn't even begin as a defense of homosexuality, but was merely a comment on religious views, yet you seem to respond to any mention of homosexuality with more quotations about 'statistical facts'. Can you blame us if we find that odd?

Laws and restrictions and condemnations of ANYTHING... from oil drilling to gun ownership to sewage discharge should be based on relevant facts... INCLUDING how the restrictions might change as control over the problem changes.

I have now asked you perhaps 5-6 times what you would have the authorities DO about you concerns and how that would change if the 'problem' were better controlled. You do quite a little dance to avoid a direct answer. It makes me wonder...............

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 03:19 PM

I believe that Jesus had some fairly harsh words for the Pharisees, who were the fundamentalists of their day.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: John P
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 09:55 AM

A big part of my dislike of people who engage in gay bashing on Christian grounds is the extreme dichotomy between the moral codes presented in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Inconsistently applied negative judgement on the one hand and a consistent message of love and acceptance on the other. The two don't mix, and it makes for people with moral codes that are founded on contradictions and cognitive dissonance.

I want everyone who is pushing for anti-gay laws for religious reasons to also be pressing for laws that require us, as a nation, to turn the other cheek. I'd like to see a Congressional Proclamation that the Love is the most important thing there is. And, of course, we should be constructing needles to shove all the rich folks through. Then there's eating kosher . . .

What I really wish is that the Old Testament "Christians" would come up with a different name for their hateful and judgmental religion. It sure ain't Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Homosexuality - An abomination to God?
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 09:33 AM

That rings true Joe. I recall reading in one part of the Old Testament that vegetarianism was mandatory. Then only a couple of chapters later, there was a description of which animals would be eaten at which feasts.