BS: Skilled Work, No Worker

Subject: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:37 PM

Robots are changing the global economy.

"Human beings are also animals, to manage one million animals gives me a headache," says Foxconn CEO Terry Gou (they make the iPhone for Apple). New plants are planned, with one million robots, to supplement the Chinese work force.
The Chinese are researching robotics and could lead the industry in a few years.

Neither presidential candidate is talking about the disapearance of the blue collar worker, 15 years down the road, but industries are planning on robot replacements.

Philips Electronics (Netherlands) has hundreds of workers in China doing assembly of shavers. At a sister factory in Holland, 128 robots do the same work with a few dozen workers to program and finish off.

Tesla Motors in California has completed their robotic assembly line- robots are programmed to weld, rivet, bond and install. Their new luxury automobile will soon be on sale.

Flextronics has built a large solar panel factory in California, and advertise "Bringing Jobs & Manufacturing Back to California," but on an assembly line that runs 24 hours a day seven days a week, there are few humans, robots do the work.

Executives argue that though blue collar jobs will be lost, there wil be more skilled jobs in design, operating and servicing. This demands a better educated workforce, with skilled training- a necessity that is being addressed in fragmented, poorly designed programs. Not a topic being addressed by the candidates.

C&S, the largest grocery wholesaler, has developed a new warehouse system which requires only a few technician watchdogs over robots doing all the work. The robots move fast (rover robots at 25mph) and are computer accurate.
Hundreds of floormen, lift and pallet operators, etc., are being displaced.

Do our candidates of any stripe have suggestions and plans on training the "new" workforce?

The article, "Skilled Work Without the Worker," John Markoff, is the lead in the New York Sunday Times, National Section, August 19, 2012.

The article is full page in length, and is impossible to reproduce here, but it should be required reading for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:53 PM

When I was in school, about 60 years ago, we saw 16MM film explaining how 'progress' was going to automate many things, giving us a 30 hr. workweek and lots of vacation time. Many scenes of happy families playing and going to visit grandma in flying cars while the house was vacuumed by robots...(presumably made in factories where daddy only worked 30 hours).

At that time, Japan was barely out of war reconstruction and just showing an interest in portable radios... and China was 75% still in the dark ages.

Even in the 1950s, I didn't see how it would work... "But, teacher.... if they can make robots do the work, how many men will they NEED..even at 30 hrs. a week?"

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 04:03 PM

Read Thos. Friedman's "The World is Flat" and substitute robots for unskilled labor. The day of the unemployable prole is upon us. The only work that will be in demand will be brain work or work it does not pay to export.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 04:36 PM

What appears to be the article is at The iEconomy Skilled Work, Without the Worker
Paul Sakuma/Associated Press

A footnote says "a version of this article appeared in the NY Times ..." but it probably is pretty close to the same.

As noted, the article is "quite long" (6 pages in Word at 12pt type) and this site indicates that it's part of a continuing series. There is a link to "the rest of the story(?)".

John

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 05:07 PM

Something has to give. It is natural for a company to wish to reduce costs in manufacture, distribution, etc. The math says that if they can do the job with fewer workers, they can compete better.

But the math also says that if there are too many people not working, the market for many products will be limited... and if the cost-benefit analysis gets too far out of balance, the entire economy will shift violently in various ways.

**NO** president can just 'create jobs'... he can only seek to create conditions where companies can afford to BOTH hire and produce.

If we cannot even buy shoes ... etc...that are not made in China, we are at a severe disadvantage....

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: gnu
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 05:32 PM

No worries. There is always war. Stimulated the economy for centuries. It will again. If you don't believe me, read a newspaper or turn on your radio or TV. Read what's happening. Read some history.

Like a broken record... once more... the rich subjugate the poor. The price of cereal grain is out of site? Do the math.

Hang onto your hats over the next few years... it's gonna be a wild ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:16 PM

John, essentially the same article, same writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:15 PM

In three years or so China and India will sign a treaty of economic cooperation. Japan and South Korea might also be involved. In case you haven't checked recently, the the one-two-three-four economic powerhouses of Asia.

The US and the Western economies will very much become economic backwaters, and the US could even "Balkanize" due to the current lack of political cohesiveness.

I'm not looking forward to the future very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: MarkS
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:18 PM

I shudder, Rap, I shudder, particularly about you balkinization point.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:22 PM

70% of the US economy is based on US consumer spending... If people don't have jobs or jobs that pay a living wage then the US economy is in trouble... Seems that the things that American workers can do is fix infrastructure... Robots can't do that... This is America's future if it has one...

The people who are fighting this are not looking at the big picture... The US won't stay competitive if its trying to do it on 100 year-old infrastructure...

Time to get America's priorities in order or look like Somalia in 50 years...

You pick...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: gnu
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:42 PM

No worries, Rap. We always have war. The lads have been preparing for it in earnest for about 15 years, spending money on hardening the military resources at an extreme rate. Just took BILLIONS away from the economy to give it some extra oomph... bailout Wall Street? bail out the auto manufacturers? Bail out bullshit. Fill the war coffers.

The "wars" in Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya and Syria? Training exercises.

Now, will India side with China? Or will they hedge their bets and side (stay) with the proven track runner? That's the BIG question. Here's the answer. They will side with the Brits. The Chinese don't play cricket.

Then again, if... oh, what the hell... there are so many possibilities. No matter what, it's gonna be a ride. Buckle up.

I may consider moving to Idaho. NObody would attack Idaho.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:46 PM

Rapparee, this century will belong to the Asians.
We can hope to keep a reasonably standard of living, a la UK or the richer parts of the EU, but American dominance will soon be something in the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:40 PM

Of course it will be. In many ways it already is.

China and India won't fight each other because it would have very unwanted economic consequences. The Asian countries have a long range outlook, unlike the US, the EU, etc.

But if you REALLY want a scary scenario, consider civil war in China, and North Korea could use that as the time to renew hostilities with the South -- and yes, it could happen. If NK starts something China would, in the present situation, do whatever it could to stop it because it'd be bad for business (BTW, the new NK Premier recently visited China to discuss economic matters). But a civil war in China? You take it from there, and remember how close Japan is to Korea.

Now, about 2030 I see Scotland annexing England and Manx becoming the dominant language in Europe. Following an earthquake of huge magnitude around 2029 Wales will break off from Britain and collide with Ireland somewhere near Youghal. This same earthquake will close the shipways to Copenhagen, and Spitsbergen and the Faroes will become part of Iceland. The Orkneys will become drifting islands and eventually come to anchor in the Canaries. Unfortunately, Lichtenstein will sink below the sea, make Switzerland the naval power it was always meant to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 10:54 PM

The USA's prosperity is in decline and Canada and other nations depending on trade with them are being sucked down as well. Americans still control much of the world's wealth but it is concentrated in far to few people and places. Part of the problem is that Americans still see capitalism as a sacred cow while thy are getting screwed by it! Global corporations, often USA based , have established an international power structure above government control. Short term profit and bonuses are the goal of greedy executives and they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves! The first lesson that must be learned is that democracy and capitalism have nothing in common. Once the people demand that the government rein in this band of thieves and throw the bastards in jail things may improve but as long as they can bribe politicians with campaign ( or under the table ) contributions greed will rule the roost. As for robots they make most of a car today on Detroit's assembly lines. Trouble is the damn things don't buy any cars like all the laid off workers used to do! On and on it goes...............

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:51 PM

Apple is now the wealthiest American Corporation, but the jobs it created in manufacturing are in Asia. It did create American jobs in sales, service and applications.

As robots take over manufacture and warehousing, and the remaining semi-skilled jobs go to the cheapest source of labor, more and more people with limited skills- the "blue collar"- will be unemployable or working at the lowest level in sales, clean-up and the like.

Simply put, they do not have the education to take on, or even to be trained in, the technical, adjustable, workforce needed in the future.
I don't have any answers, but I know preparing people for the future requires changes in schools, government support programs, and single-group cultures .

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:35 PM

Wise words Sandy and Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:15 PM

Heh! We're all going to starve.
Potted meat recipes?
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:38 PM

You'll be lucky to have meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:44 PM

Better learn how to design, make and/or service robots. Then you will always have a job.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 10:04 PM

Humans aren't animals.

An interesting area of study is "man or other animals" laws. Such laws have become pervasive in modern society. Why?

In order to take away your rights.

Never abide by any law that uses the term "man or other animals." If you willingly accept the law, then you have given up your human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 09:52 PM

So what rock have you all been sleeping under for the last 20 years? I must be pretty quiet, or you would have heard about all of this a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: Ironmule
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 12:17 AM

For the last six years I've been working an assembley line that has 16 million dollars worth of robots and seven people. Two years ago they told us they would replace two of us with another robot. It had become excess on another line and was laying around so they wanted to put it to work.

We told them the job was rife with false positives in the testing and the computer controls of the robot wouldn't be able to cope. Two years of seven day weeks later, four more robots, and three more people on the line, and it's finally beginging to run smoothly.

I've forgotten half the songs I knew and haven't had a life. It's been eat sleep and work. The key thought here, is that a robot is never smarter than the human who programmed it in the first place.

GIGO

Garbage in, garbage out. The whole idea of using robots depends on the planning of the people who buy them. Really smart people run a good factory whether it has people or robots.

Having just retired from a factory run by idiots, I thought you might like to hear my rant.

Jeff Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 11:11 PM

Hi, Jeff. It's good to hear from somebody who has been on the scene.

Now that you've retired, I hope your songs come back to you. Have you picked up your instruments yet? The day after your retirement party is a good time to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Skilled Work, No Worker
From: gnu
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 10:59 PM

Ironmule... thanks.