BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?

Subject: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:20 AM

Are they not doing a Cristina Kirshner by diverting attention from Isael's social and other problems???

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:52 AM

"Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?"

More likely just people caught between tough choices. We know that if France started firing rockets--procured from a third party--into England, the British parliament would accept the attacks with stoicism and fortitude. Would that the Israelis exemplified the English character.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:00 AM

Gosh Neuf, are you suggesting that the Hamas organisation might be under the influence of the said third party are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:05 AM

We would probably send a gunboat and six marines over there to kick the shit out of 'em.

But then we don't have a forty year record of stealing their land and blockading their supplies, effectively besieging and later bombing the hell out of them, DO WE?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:12 AM

Nice try Don but no banana. Go spread your hatred on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:16 AM

It seems to me that we in the west (at least, those of us who follow the news in papers and on the telly, etc.) only take notice of the plight of the Palestinians when they do outrageous things. In between times, they must think that we think it's great just to let 'em rot. Gaza is not France. It is a little patch of semi-derelict land that has been starved under Israeli siege and blockade for the last four years. You can't expect to make progress for your people whilst firing rockets, we sanctimoniously tell 'em. Well, they don't make progress whether they're firing rockets or not, do they. Their perception is that firing rockets gets them noticed and brings things to a head, and they're right about that. I ask you, though, what else can they do? That isn't to justify in the slightest the rockets, which are abhorrent. But, there, see, I'm falling into the trap of criticising Hamas for a recent flurry of rockets. I'm not mentioning illegal thefts of land, apartheid walls, institutional discrimination against Palestinians inside Israel, the unqualified indulgence of Israel by the west, the bankrolling of a massive and completely unjustifiable army that is in the hands of one of the most belligerent nations on earth in recent history... So whose fault is it? Israel's or Palestine's? Neither actually. It's ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:29 AM

I wrote much the same to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Steve. Don on another thread says that both Hamas and Israel share some responsibility in this. He was right on that thread. He's wrong on this one. However, I notice no one is talking about Iran's involvement either. Why so much quiet about that? Of such situations are world wars made. While I agree with much of what you've said, imo it's incomplete.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:37 AM

One can only negotiate with people who are willing to do so. More than one aim would help too.
I feel sorry for the Palestinians too, but they don't seem to do much to help themselves, and if reports are to be believed, artificial shortages are created by Hamas, and blamed on third parties, to stoke up resentment.Even Gaza itself is split.
Sit down and talk without any preconditions, just for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:43 AM

Two opposing organisations , both with an excess of Hard Liners leading them is a recipe for disaster !
What the Israelis have done to help the situation in the past has been either ignored or actively opposed by Hamas who have been bombarding Israelli civilian areas with assorted missiles for YEARS

Neither side is blameless - The Israelis are still building settlements where they have no right to a the Rockets are , in MY book , just terrorism

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:12 AM

"But then we don't have a forty year record of stealing their land"

You mean like the British did in North America....and they still haven't left.....the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:19 AM

has been starved under Israeli siege and blockade for the last four years.
Not true.
Not starved.
No blockade of food or any other civilian requirement.
Only any restrictions at all because Hamas chooses to be at war with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:30 AM

After WW2, should Europeans of Jewish faith have been given their own nation WITHIN Europe..?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:35 AM

...my poem on "Land Rights" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/476693050

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:59 AM

"One can only negotiate with people who are willing to do so"

So that rules out the present Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:29 AM

And the present Hamas authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:09 AM

Seems like 2 utterly irreconcilable attitudes, doesn't it?

In a situation like that, my sympathy is usually with the weaker party...meaning the far less well-armed and far less powerful one...the one that's suffering under the boot of military domination by a conquering foreign power. I don't think I really need to elaborate on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: number 6
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM

"In a situation like that, my sympathy is usually with the weaker party...meaning the far less well-armed and far less powerful one"

So ... if the Palestinians obtain far more powerful weapons equivilant to those used by the Israelis (and I'm sure they would if they could, and they would use them) then which side would you sympathize with?

The Israelis distrust and fear the Palestinians, and the Palestinians distrust and fear the Israelis .... why is that? ... they are not born with it ... it certainly is not in their DNA.

It's lunacy ... all this distrust, hatred and fear all a result of politikal manipulation.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:22 AM

Would those who claim that Hamas will not negotiate care to substantiate that assertion, please.

"They don't do much to help themselves" and "neither side is blameless" and "Hamas chooses to be at war with Israel"...yeah, we get lots of this kind of talk, don't we. Well here's the reality. Israel has absolutely no intention, ever, of negotiating a solution to the Palestine issue. If you build an apartheid wall and continue to steal the best bits of Palestinian land for your settlements, your hand is clearly shown. The settlements are now so widespread that the prospect of a contiguous Palestinian state has vanished. Hands up all those who think Israel will ever hand back a single settlement. Pigs might fly too. But, without giving back the land, there can be no meaningful negotiations.So it isn't going to happen. What's more, there is absolutely no political need for Israel to get round the table. Whatever outrages they choose to commit against any of their neighbours, including the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, they know they will always have the unqualified support of the US in terms of bankrolling their huge army. They know that, should anyone attack Israel, whether it be Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran, the west will rally with mighty support. They can do no wrong. They can do whatever they like and the yanks will keep the aid flowing. And the reason for that is that any politician in the US who speaks up against Israel in any way is toast. We have those powerful and totally undemocratic lobby groups such as AIPAC to thank for that. And the yanks with their dissing and their vetos make damn sure that the UN has no teeth either. And there's precious little pressure from any EU country to stay Israel's hand. But things are changing in the middle east. Egypt and Turkey are no longer Israel's friends and even Jordan is coming under pressure. If we don't intervene very soon (by threatening to withdraw Israel's military aid for starters) there is the real risk of a massive regional conflict. Mr Erdogan is the man to watch closely. I think he has ambitions to turn Turkey into a regional superpower, and Israel is somewhat in his way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:27 AM

If the English can relinquish most of Ireland about 600 years after first invasion and conquest (indeed, spurred on by terrorist bombs) and most of America after about a hundred, surely Israel can relinquish Arab lands after 65.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:28 AM

I am so fed up with men.

Let's put the Women in charge of the planet, for we give Birth, CREATE Life..we do not kill that which we have created...

Obviously, there are exceptions to this rule, such as Dilma Rousseff, who is presently bringing Genocide to the Indigenous People of the Amazon Rainforest, but...in the main, most women support Life, care deeply about the humans they have created and have the Nurturers and Lovers of our Species..

Men have been in charge WAY TOO LONG and they have fucked up badly..So, unless you can somehow clone Gandhi and the Dalai Lama, let The Women take over...then we can all grow roses instead of nuclear bombs and fecking rocket launching rockets...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:33 AM

"Would those who claim that Hamas will not negotiate care to substantiate that assertion, please."

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad"

Hamas Charter
Article 13

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM

After WW2, should Europeans of Jewish faith have been given their own nation WITHIN Europe..?

No. Why should anyone regard a religious state as a good thing?

However, what's done is done. Israel is here now, it's here to stay and we should not tolerate stupid talk of wiping it off the map, etc. Israel is full of ordinary people, Jews and non-Jews alike, who deserve peace, security and whatever prosperity they can muster. The politicians in Israel have persuaded their people that they are surrounded by hostile powers who are dying to eliminate them. This is simply not true (every problem Israel ever has with its neighbours is fuelled primarily by the Palestine issue), but hey, politicians are always at their most persuasive when they tell their people how they're protecting them from foreigners. Falklands factors and all that.

There are millions of Muslims in Europe. Should we give them their own nation?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:44 AM

Some folks disagree with you, Lizzie. Reverse chauvinism is still chauvinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

Well, bobad, there are all manner of "charters" everywhere that are routinely not adhered to. I can't think why you think Hamas would be any different with theirs. Getting round the rigidity of your "charter" is called pragmatism. Show me how Hamas couldn't, if they wanted to, be just as pragmatic as everyone else. Following the release of Gilad Shalit,Hamas has already indicated that it would like to explore the possibility of a wider and ambitious set of negotiations: Leading Hamas figures have mounted a very public campaign, one that the entire Israeli public has been exposed to, offer the possibility that they will abandon all terror and violence. Mashal's public appearances in Cairo have been especially diplomatic and humane. [The New Republic, October 24 2011]. Remember that Netanyahu is the major bock to negotiations, having said that he will not negotiate with a Palestinian contingent which contains Hamas representatives. Divide and rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:13 AM

Netanyahu, unfortunately, is the Dick Cheney of the Middle East... He is a hard-liner who thinks war first and diplomacy a last resort... He is not making Israel any safer but endangering Israel...

As long as this conflict is allowed to continue, no one is safer in the Middle East... A two state solution is there for the taking... It will one day happen so why not just get it on...

BTW, we talk about "democracy" as long a the folks get elected that we want elected... The Palestinians should not be held to a different standard... If those people actually attack Israel then, fine, go get 'um... But if they are just huffin' and puffin' then, hey, huffing' and puffin' is the M.O. in the Middle East...

I put some of the blame on Obama... He needs to be more engaged in pushing for a Israeli-Palestinian solution...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:34 AM

Obama has been a let-down for sure, but all US presidents' hands are tied, for the reason I stated. The much-vaunted two-state solution seems like a no-no to me. If it's based on the '67 borders, there will be huge resentment in Israel and lots of displaced people. If it's based wholly or even partially on the current situation apropos of settlements, there cannot be a continuous Palestinian territory - and Palestinian resentment will be fuelled because not all the land that they perceive to belong to them will be handed back. And all the evidence seems to point to Israel not being able to live in peace with a neighbouring state in any case. A new Palestine will be poverty-stricken to begin with and will need major investment, presumably by the west (we do want this thing to work, after all). More Israeli resentment.

Permit me to enter a dreamlike Utopian cloud-cuckoo land for a minute (no, I don't live there permanently). Jews and non-Jews living together as equals in a single state, with firm anti-discrimination laws in place and full democratic rights for all citizens (Jews, Muslims and Christians have had a fairly honourable record of living in reasonable harmony for millennia). A massive reduction in the size of the IDF. Ancestral lands seized since 1967 to be handed back. Some Israelis would have to be compensated, of course, but wouldn't you rather spend our dough on that than on funding their bloated military? That bloody wall demolished. The Gaza blockade lifted. And the clincher: massive investment by the west in infrastructure, agriculture and industrial development in Gaza and the more run-down areas of the West Bank. The whole shebang really.

It's OK, I've woken up again. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:46 AM

"Women were also deeply involved as perpetrators of genocide in Cambodia from 1975 to 1979, but the contrast with female perpetrators in Nazi Germany is striking. First, the Cambodian genocide was directly controlled by the Khmer Rouge, and the entire country functioned as a labor camp. Second, the scale of participation was greater: instead of the approximately three thousand (primarily conscripted) female prison guards in Germany, tens of thousands of Cambodian women served as leaders and guards, and the roots of their participation and commitment were much more varied. Perhaps the greatest motivator for female (as well as male) Cambodian perpetrators was the need to establish a more secure identity in the face of ongoing warfare. Participation also provided a means of dealing with bewildering changes in government. A further motivation arose from the widely shared fear that Khmer culture was being destroyed by both Vietnamese and Western influence. Cambodian women were involved in the whole process of destruction: enforcing the killing pace of work, maintaining close surveillance over individuals and families, using violence to whip people into line, and direct killing. Moreover, Cambodia presents one of the few modern examples of a woman (Ieng Thirith) being one of the initiators of genocide."

from

http://www.enotes.com/perpetrators-reference/perpetrators

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:46 AM

Until a 2-state solution is "negotiated" then it is not reasonable to say it's a "no-no" because of any set in stone conditions, such as returning to the '67 borders... Everything should be on the table from the jump with no one side having to jump thru hoops prior to sitting down... Pre-conceived conditions are an impediment...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:52 AM

Steve - Albania. And the migration of European Jews (many of whom directly or indirectly suffered from Nazis) has, in turn, caused much suffering (including displacement) among Palestinians.

I repeat, After WW2, should Europeans of Jewish faith have been given their own nation WITHIN Europe..?

Lizzie - I wish the Dalai Lama would tell (incredibly brave) Tibetans to stop using self-immolation; there's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:57 AM

I wasn't suggesting that there should be preconditions, but both sides come with massive historical baggage, even if you could get them round a table in the first place. I hate to sound pessimistic (I'm a very jolly chap in real life, you know), but this is simply not going to happen. The real impediment to negotiations is Israel's lack of need to negotiate. They don't have to give up a single thing - in fact, they can keep on taking with impunity. They can do what they like. There is no incentive for Israel to get round a table. All attempts so far have been complete shams. That's the current reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 11:03 AM

Astonishingly, I mostly agree with everyone. Except Lizzie.

Lizzie, it isn't about men or women, it's about who gravitates towards positions of power. You can talk about "nurturing" if you want, but all too many blokes can talk back about "vindictiveness". If women were in power in Gaza & Israel it might be better. If Other Men were in power, it might be better too.

In practical terms, those who gravitate towards power are Dominant personality types, male or female, and they will all, on both sides, be doing more or less the same thing overall. They think they're right. How else do you expect them to behave? They think they're RIGHT!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 11:37 AM

Those who say Israel will never give any land back, may care to examine the facts.

1982: Israel gives up 100% of Sinai to Egypt for peace

1993: Israel gives up land to Palestinian Authority

1994: Israel gives up land to Jordan for peace

2005: Israel gives up 100% of Gaza to Palestinians

2008: Israel offers 95% of West Bank to Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 11:50 AM

Patch Adams on a Revolution of Love and Women.......

Bruce, I did state there were exceptions to the rule, and held President Rousseff (spit!) up as an example of the Sociopathic, Power-Crazed Woman...and Ghandi and the Dalai Lama were in there too...and I take on board your link too.

I'm just sick of seeing streets/towns/cities filled with men, no women around, with them all baying for blood, shooting guns into the air and being Crazy.

I'm sick of violent films, violent computer games, violence everywhere you look...being sold to our youngsters from such an early age, surrounding them with violence to the point where they think it's normal. Violence is NOT normal.

However, I do fully appreciate that there are many Men of Peace who would not hurt anyone and do all they can to help others...

I did not mean to offend anyone...just fed up to the back teeth with Aggressive Bastards who think they have the right to send anyone to war on a whim...

I don't care which war, which side...

There have been too many tears shed by too many Mothers. Too many Babies Buried, too many sons & daughters torn apart, husbands and wives, mothers and fathers all lost...

These days we 'glorify war'.....people are infatuated and obsessed with it.

We do not Glorify Peace...

We are trying to turn women into non-maternal beings, putting their children out to be brought up by strangers and believing it's NORMAL to do this now, when it's anything *but*. Women are becoming far more aggressive, because they're being encouraged to be...We are de-valuing Motherhood in the West to an insane degree....

WHY?

WHY is this happening?

WHO is behind it?

WHO gets to benefit from it?

WHY would any society want to make itself uncaring and more aggressive, rather than a loving, maternal one?

Israel and Palestine need the women to rise up and scream out "NO MORE!".....

But do the men in control actually WANT Peace???????

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:19 PM

'Israel and Palestine need the women to rise up and scream out "NO MORE!".....'

And the men, too.

I have just finished trading a few emails with an Israeli friend. HE would agree with you as do I. I do NOT buy into the notion that women are any less aggressive than men, given the power or opportunity to be aggressive. Females can be every bit as disgusting as their male counterparts: Coulter, Bachmann, Palin, Marcos, Gandhi, Thatcher. I can continue here should it be necessary.

Here are some people trying to make a difference. Today. Now.

Alienating half your readers before you say anything substantial ain't all that clever, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:20 PM

eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth .. everyone running around guming their food blind. sooner or later someone has to say enough and work it out or their kids keep dying and for what ... hate .. hate doesn't work -it only makes things worse ..

when will it end probably not in our lifetime

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:22 PM

Like a game of cards, I will see your 50 dead and raise you 200.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:31 PM

"Let's put the Women in charge of the planet, for we give Birth, CREATE Life..we do not kill that which we have created..."

Please no no no...please no more fuckwits like Cristina botox Kirshner!!

By the way, saw Show of Hands on Thursday.......still the kings of folk!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:32 PM

I would care to examine the facts actually, John. Do expand on the 95% offer - I'm finding it rather hard to flesh that one out. I suppose if you broke into my house, stole 10 grand, then offered out of the goodness of your heart to give me nine and a half grand back, I should feel pleased with you...? And which bits are the 5% Israel would like to hang on to? Bet it isn't useless strips of desert or waste dumps... As for Gaza, Israel withdrew because the game wasn't worth the candle, and they, obligingly, trashed the settlements before they left (the trashing-of-homes-in-Gaza process that, as we know only too well, has continued to this day). Sinai was, of course, a dirty deal done between a dirty dictator (may he rot, we're all now saying, of course) and the west to keep Egypt permanently out of Israel's hair. And so on. Don't look too good when you delve, John...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:50 PM

No Steve, whatever side you dig on!
However people have a habit of believing what they want to believe, and the truth is the true casualty.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 12:51 PM

Sorry but the response by Israel and the Palestinians is a false equivalency.

Lizzie, we need more the sane voices of women. Men are always trying to show off how big their cocks (weapons) are.

We need to keep the honey-pot manipulators from doing the male dictator's bidding.
Mossad is the reason for a Paula Broadwell and her other flirtation with the Irgun.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:22 PM

"A quick look around at many other world nations will find many leaders of such stature."
:)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 01:33 PM

Putin.....worries the hell outta me, totally off his Sociopathic Rocker...

Bruce...I agree, I did write my earlier post wrongly. Sadly, it has to stand as it is, as I cannot change it, delete it, nor add an explanation to it.

So, I will now be judged by it, by some...

I would, obviously, hope that you are not one of those who would do so.

However, thank you for pulling me up about it, because I deserved to be hauled over the coals for it..

And hey, don't call me 'Lizzie' ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 02:09 PM

I hear ya, Liz. Not to worry. The world needs more peace. Just check out this audience.

http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/lXKDu6cdXLI?rel=0

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 03:29 PM

Oh Fluffy One.

Golda Meir.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

"BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?"

For doing what exactly?
Returning fire?
For sitting around in repentence, while their citizens are killed by Iranian rockets?
I'm sorry, but the basic premise of this thread is so biassed, it deosn't deserve a reasoned answer. After all the original question isn't balanced is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:16 PM

Self-help signs that you could be moving towards "Asshole" status (no person in mind, just self-help stuff) :)

1. You wildly overstate your case
2. You disrespect others who hold views different from yours
3. You really believe it's that simple
4. You think you have all the answers
5. You ignore views that do not reinforce your perspective
6. You preemptively tell others to fuck off,or use similar terms
7. You use thread titles to stimulate discourse, not discussion
8. You believe that one thread on the same topic is not enough

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:20 PM

Respect Ed ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 04:22 PM

Oh yes, I forgot that one.

Good for a # 9
;)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 05:35 PM

As for Gaza, Israel withdrew because the game wasn't worth the candle, and they, obligingly, trashed the settlements before they left
Not true.
The smashing up was done by the Gazans after they left.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:06 PM

Those cows are great, Bruce. Thank you xx :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:29 PM

Hmm. Don't think so, Keith! Buy yourself a book called In A Dark Time and read all the stuff about the usefulness of demonising your enemy. Or maybe you've learned all those tricks already.

No Steve, whatever side you dig on!
However people have a habit of believing what they want to believe, and the truth is the true casualty.

Well, John, your own very pro-Israel bias shows through very well in your posts. I'm afraid that this tired old taking-sides stuff (and why not chuck a bit of Keith-style Islamophobia into the mix) is exactly what has kept this horrid conflict afloat for all these decades. As for me, and I repeat for your benefit, the victims in this are everyone in the region, especially those Gazans who have their homes destroyed and children slaughtered and those million Israelis who are too terrified to sleep in their own beds at night. But, John, guess why we're talking about this again. Because Hamas upped their rocket-firing. In the years in which the rocket firing is minimal, we don't talk about it, do we. You'd be lucky to find half a column inch on page 23 any other time, even though the Gazans are suffering just as much then as they do now. Don't you think that the very time we should be talking about it is when things are quiet and emotions are low? But that is exactly when we forget about it. Hope it goes away, sort of thing. Hamas are a bit like internet trolls in that respect. No-one ever listens if they try to be reasonable, so... well, you know. The difference being that the trolls go away if we ignore 'em. You want Hamas to go away (so do I, actually), but ignoring them is not going to work. And, while you're taking Israel's side, think of those Israeli civilians who are in bed tonight wondering when the next bloody rocket will land. That's how much you love 'em. You're not on their side at all, are you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:44 PM

Ron, Dan, any chance of this going back on Youtube?


'Jabaliya' on Ron's Myspace page


JABALIYA
(Ron Bankley)

I caught you looking, gazing across the Strip
From the safety of viewpoints within that comfortable grip
It's hard to grasp fast shadows from the corner of your eye
They can't shout down the silence, but at least they try

There's a ringing in my ears that just won't subside
I'm losing track of the years and how many more have died
Here comes the cavalry, there goes the neighbourhood
Just a stone's throw from Calvary, where someone else got nailed real good

Still gambling at the foot of the Cross, the Crescent and the Star,
All the chosen henchmen tell us how lucky we really are....

There'll be no jambalaya in Jabaliya tonight
Not much cause to celebrate, we just wait out the fight
There's a shortage of ingredients, expedience shot out the lights
So there'll be no jambalaya in Jabaliya tonite

Out in the badlands we have little left to bet
Robber barons come to collect some neglected debt
We aimed arrows at their iron horse that drove us from our land
To confine us to the bitterness of the heavy hand

Willy Pete came calling again, blowing lots of smoke
Every time he's let out, things get burnt and broke
While the dealer shows no mercy, he wears a poker face
The stakes just got a lot higher as he palms another ace

Still gambling at the foot of the Cross, the Crescent and the Star
Pinned on the chest of frontier justice that thrust us behind bars
The slick-tongue ambassador smiles just like a stiletto
We still fail to get the joke down here in the ghetto

There'll be no jambalaya in Jabilya tonite
No happy songs and dances, chances are we might
End up on the wrong end of some retaliatory strike
So there'll be no jambalaya in Jabaliya tonight
No jambalaya in Jabaliya tonight



I caught you looking, gazing across the Strip



Ron Bankley


Jan 07-09/2009

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 07:10 PM

The problem with insanity is that it's crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:02 PM

Somehow the reality that the UN partitioned Palestine in 1949 to create what we now recognize as the *country* of Israel while the Palestinians who were displaced are forbidden from having their own sovereign country ...

...why???

Speakin' of why... Why can't we talk about this without being accused of being anti-Zionist or anti-Israel???

Let's keep things in perspective here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:38 PM

Bobster nails it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:50 PM

Being called anti-Israel, anti-Zionist (I might not mind that one too much) or antisemitic just goes with the territory if you are not ardently behind Israel's every action.

Israel exists and always will. We have to take it from there, and, actually, I'm happy with that, in spite of what I might have thought in 1948 had I been around. Israel is not Netanyahu, Olmert, Sharon or Barak. It is eight million Jews and a catching-up number of non-Jews, all of whom are in danger of being hoodwinked by hubristic politicians but all of whom deserve peace, equality and security. That's my starting point and, from there, I feel secure in calling it as I see it, whether it's stupid Hamas rocket-firing or the depressingly-routine disproportionate Israeli response.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 08:59 PM

I don't see name calling as useful to this or any discussion, Bobert, whether the name suits the person or not. To me it contributes to fewer brain cells being triggered, from great bursts of testosterone.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 09:15 PM

I'm not callin' names, Ed... I am calling the ballgame the way it is... I have been accused of being anti-Zionist and anti-Israel at the WaPo over and over for offering pro-human, pro-Israel, pro-Palestinian positions...

That was really kinda knee-jerk, man...

I ain't called no-one any names...

Reread for content...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 10:48 PM

Pertinent and pragmatic thoughts from Steve Shaw in this thread. In particular anyone still looking for solutions in the middle-east will have to give up on the two-state option. And Israel's blowing it with its one-time friend Turkey is indeed a significant development. Concern to establish influence and secure a trade route in a region dominated by the Ottomans was what drove British support for a Jewish homeland in the first place. That and intense pressure from the US, driven by Jewish interests. It remains a serious irritant in the psyche of the huge Turkish military machine.

Surely the US Zionists are a less strident mob these days, with some even beginning to take issue with Netanyahu's belligerence. Surely a re-elected Obama can afford to be more even-handed than he and other presidents were able to be? He emerged unscathed from his snubbing of Netanyahu in New York after all. And few Americans of any persuasion would thank Israel for dragging them into a war with Iran. In fact one or two serious US commentators have lately speculated that WMD capability for Iran might actually help regional stability. (The hypocrisy around all this is staggering. Pakistan for instance - partly barbaric, partly ungovernable, and with scores of nuclear war-heads at its disposal, manages to remain a key US ally.)

But we should move on from the assumption that only the US or the west in general can facilitate solutions. It might yet be China that exerts the most constructive influence in the middle-east, just as China was instrumental in ending the bloodbath in Sri Lanka.

I returned last week from a few weeks in Jordan and Jerusalem, feeling even more pessimistic than before I went. Israelis are as tense as one might expect, with their armed and supremely unfriendly checkpoints everywhere. They cannot be happy living their lives like this, and they wouldn't need to if they simply respected international law like most civilised countries manage to do. Certainly a bit of magnanimity in victory would have gone a very long way with all their regional neighbours.

The rockets raining in from Gaza should be seen, as they are seen by very many Israelis, as a futile gesture by deeply frustrated and disadvantaged people, and - until now at any rate - they have been about as effective as pea-shooters. If Hamas start hitting Tel Aviv with any consistency however, Netanyahu might yet see his strategy of provoking the hostilities for electoral advantage go pear-shaped.

And if he goes for a ground-war he will soon find out that sympathies across the region have turned significantly against Israel in the past two years. That could indeed lead to the kind of catastrophe postulated by Steve Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 11:37 PM

'Somehow the reality that the UN partitioned Palestine in 1949 to create what we now recognize as the *country* of Israel while the Palestinians who were displaced are forbidden from having their own sovereign country ...' Bobert
.,,.
They were given 'their own sovereign country' BY THAT VERY PARTITION ~ half the available territory was given to them by it. They refused it, & resorted to force of arms, with the help of 7 neighbouring Arab countries, in an attempt to abolish the offered UN partition & destroy the Jewish [Israeli] half entirely. They were defeated; so the attempts of those neighbours to help had the contrary effect. The Jews rejoiced worldwide.

Many of these, including me, have since revised their opinions of Israel in the light of what they have since become ~~ an olive-grove uprooting, wall building, minority oppressing tyranny, with whom I [we] wish to have nothing to do and do not wish to acknowledge as the state we spent so much youthful effort striving to bring into being. But can it be so surprising, thinking back to 1948, that a certain national paranoia, distrust of the bon-fides of even those neighbours who have become less hostile and fear of those [Syria &c] who haven't, should persist, resulting inter-alia in this tragic Gazan standoff which is the subject of this + another current thread?

In response to WAV [is it?] who keeps asking why the Jews weren't given somewhere else as a national home post-WW2: he doesn't make it clear if he thinks that all the Jews who had lived in the then-called Palestine ~~ some millions of them, who had by then, since the 1890s, established countless settlements as well as the entirely new populous city of Tel Aviv ~~ were to be transferred to it; and, if so, how precisely?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:00 AM

Steve Shaw, I do not need a book to know that governments lie.
Do you need to be told that terrorist groups like Hamas also lie?

From NBC.


Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

"We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke," said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. "We've tried to stop as many people as we can, but they're like locusts."

The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel's troop pullout Monday raised new concerns about Gaza's future.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM

I didn't hear you saying that about Britain when dozens of shops in our inner cities were looted and trashed in last year's riots. When you castigate a different ethnic group for doing just what we ourselves do, Keith, we call it racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM

I did not castigate them Steve.
I just corrected your assertion that it was the Jewish settlers that did the smashing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:57 AM

They were given 'their own sovereign country' BY THAT VERY PARTITION ~ half the available territory was given to them by it.

Well, you see, they were driven off their own territory, from their own homes and farms, and a massive refugee crisis was created. I'll break into your house, take it all then give you back the upstairs. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:19 AM

Bobert, I was not in any way saying you were calling folks names. I was agreeing with your previous post.Sorry if I was not clearer.

Personally, if I see a poster using terms like "terrorist Hamas", or "Zionist or anti-Zionist" anyone, I stop reading that post. I immediately see the person too biased to provide meaningful information in the discussion. But, then again, it is their choice to self-identify as such (IMO).

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:31 AM

I am not defending Israel exactly, Steve, in the passage of mine you quote ~~ but simply answering an inaccurate statement by Bobert above that the Arabs of Palestine/Israel had never been offered any sort of state. I repeat: they were, half the available land offered in 1947 by the UN, which the Jews there accepted but the Arabs rejected, insisting they must have it all ~ with the result that they got v little, & lost even that 20 years later. The question - as to whether the Jews should have been there, for 50+ years previously, at all - which I take to be the basis of your response, I admit is at least an arguable one; but not to my present purpose of refuting B's mis-statement.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:33 AM

The 'refugee crisis' you refer to, moreover, was the outcome of these events, not one of its causes. You seem to me to be a bit confused over that part of it, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:44 AM

Do I see a parallel between Maggie Thatcher and the state of Israel?
In that both of them were/are willing to fight for their beliefs, right OR wrong, and both are vilified by the liberal left!
I leave you with that idle thought, which I expect MIGHT annoy some folks.

Ho hum, c'est la vie ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:45 AM

Hellooo? I would have thought that most people reading my post would think I meant what you've just said. Which I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:53 AM

I did not castigate them Steve.

Saying darkly, and in weasel words, that "the failure...raised new concerns about Gaza's future" is, er, a sort of castigation, n'est-ce pas?

I just corrected your assertion that it was the Jewish settlers that did the smashing up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_unilateral_disengagement_plan

It was Israeli government policy to raze the settlements and that is what happened (OK, in most - but not all - cases it wasn't the settlers themselves if you want to be picky, but it was Israel, not Gazans). They left the synagogues and sold the greenhouses to the Palestinians. Truth can get in the way of a good yarn, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:51 AM

The dark words were CNN not me.
The greenhouses were smashed to bits, and other assets to, not by Israelis.
Only the residences were destroyed by Israel.
The rest was left to the Gazans.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:57 AM

Getting closer, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:09 AM

Steve,

Why did you say they should go back to the pre 1967 borders, when the LAST set of borders that the Arabs agreed to was back in the early 1920's, when the Mandate Authority gave the Arabs 77% of the Mandate territory, prohibiting ANY Jewish settlement in that 77%, and leaving the remaining 23% to be the Jewish Homeland?

Please let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:44 AM

I need to clarify something...

I posted "Screw you BB"... "BB" is the nick-name of Netanyahu so my post had nothing to do with "bb", i.e. beardedbruce...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:48 AM

""Nice try Don but no banana. Go spread your hatred on the other thread.""

Interesting response Bruce, from one who completely missed the essentially tongue in cheek nature of the "gunboat and six marines" reference to the style of diplomacy of the 19th century British Empire.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:54 AM

""So ... if the Palestinians obtain far more powerful weapons equivilant to those used by the Israelis (and I'm sure they would if they could, and they would use them) then which side would you sympathize with?""

I have no sympathy whatever for the intransigence displayed on both sides.

I just hate and despise the "Israel is in the right, can do no wrong and must not be criticised for any action, however disproportionate" blether we get whenever this subject comes up, from the hard wired little Israeli apologist cadre.

If we can't recognise that BOTH ARE EQUALLY GUILTY of crimes against humanity, how in hell can we expect them tpo realise and come to their senses.

SOMEBODY has to STOP!

The side that does so will gain immensely.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:18 AM

Israel did stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:54 AM

Bollocks!

There has been no period since 2001 when the Gaza borders haven't been controlled by Israel.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:58 AM

Not very well controlled.
A thousand rockets so far this year.
How did they get in?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:29 AM

You don't suppose it was because Israel wanted them to get in, do you, Keith? Nah, I'm being silly... Coo, can't your mind race sometimes!

The '67 borders have frequently been on the table in talks. Don't you think a two-state solution based on those borders is at least worth talking about? That is more than strident enough for Israel already, innit. As I keep saying, we do this thing settled one day, don't we?

Well yes, Don, equally guilty. If you like. But that gets us nowhere. To work out proportionate guilt we have to decide how far to go back, and we do that every time and it never works. The intransigence we see on the surface may not always reflect what goes on behind the scenes. If we can get them both to stop shooting for a while that will be a little victory of sorts. There are people of good will trying to bring that about and you can bet your life that the two sides are having conversations of some kind at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:30 AM

do want this thing

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 10:43 AM

Steve,

I know for a fact that there are NO groups in Israel that would not accept a two-state solution based on the 1924 border.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:14 AM

The 1924 partition "agreement" gave rise to people like the Stern Gang, a plucky little bunch of freedom fighters (or were they terrorists) fighting for a fairer slice of the mandated territories (Ring any bells?)
They infamously planted abomb in the King David hotel in Jerusalem, which killed some British officers, and other personnel. They were doing what several other organisations fighting on behalf of their dispossesed people, have done before, and will continue to do in the future. Mainly because life ain't fair.
Now it crossed my mind to wonder where those who tend to sympathise with the underdog, would have stood in relation to that little local difficulty?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:17 AM

Magic, of course. Don't be so abjectly asinine, Keith. Israel's control of Gazan borders is a subtle but hugely damaging weapon. If you're not intelligent enough to work out how & why then, quite frankly, you're way too dumb for your opinions to be worth a damn.

I'm not on the side of the Israelis or the Gazans. I am bloody sure, though, that 99% of them, Jewish or Arab, want nothing more than to be left alone. Left alone to get on with their lives, raise their kids, and hope that their kids have a better life than they have. It's the 1% of fucking idiots that keep getting in the way!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:18 AM

It is all nuts, I only know that if the rocket firing doesn't stop it will get even worse. For me, if someone put a bullet through my window where my wife and family life, I respond with a Ma Deuce but that's just me. I pray the talks work so no more kids get killed

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:29 AM

Joghn,

NO, you are incorrect.

"The 1924 partition "agreement" gave rise to people like the Stern Gang, a plucky little bunch of freedom fighters (or were they terrorists) fighting for a fairer slice of the mandated territories (Ring any bells?)
They infamously planted abomb in the King David hotel in Jerusalem, which killed some British officers, and other personnel. They were doing what several other organisations fighting on behalf of their dispossesed people, have done before, and will continue to do in the future. Mainly because life ain't fair."

It was the 1948 Partition OF THE MANDATE PALESTINE JEWISH HOMELAND that lead to those activities.

THAT was NEVER accepted by the Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:46 AM

Irgun and the Stern Gang (many of the members and descendants of which went on to run Israel, and a few of whom are still around, unfortunately) were dyed-in-the-wool Zionists who were not fighting for land that they had just been made refugees from or against repression. They are in no way comparable to today's armed supporters of the Palestinians' cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 12:11 PM

Sorry if I got my dates mixed up, but it doesn't invalidate the remainder of my post.
Steve surely they are both fighting for what they regard as their ancestral homeland?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 12:30 PM

treaties no treaties here is how it works, How did Britain get Scotland or Ireland through force ... How did the US get the western lands from Mexico .. through force .. Man's greed and need to acquire what someone else has. That is why you need a military to keep what you have sadly. History is just that, it is history .. it is what it is. Now all we can hope for is someone blinks and starts talking. Israel is not going away .. Nor is the Arabs. They either learn to accept what it is or die both of them .. all sad

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 12:32 PM

Custer once told the great chief George "you are a miltary defeated people, you have no right"

terrible terrible .. but true .. man's greed

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 12:36 PM

When you are confronted with a superior military, you either talk or you die .. that is the brutal truth about man's inhumanity to others. There is NO fair

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 12:40 PM

by the way and after they killed Custer (with just cause) The storm swept over the Native American people and the slaughter was unthinkable. That is the nature of man

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:00 PM

Beardedbruce: "It was the 1948 Partition OF THE MANDATE PALESTINE JEWISH HOMELAND that lead to those activities.
THAT was NEVER accepted by the Arabs."

So, let me get this straight..the 'left' loves the U.N....
But thinks it made a mistake giving back the land to Israel after the Holocaust....
Israel inhabits the land, and makes it thrive...
The Arabs launch missile attacks on Israel..
Israel defends itself...
Now the 'left' thinks that Israeli leaders are assholes....
Maybe the U.N. is full of shit!...OR
Israeli leaders should just let missiles fall on it citizens.
One or the other.

Maybe the 'left' has an inherent mental illness.

You guys figure it out..it seems like you want it both ways.

Which is it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 01:08 PM

last post was mine...forgot to sign in. you can take the other one down.


Beardedbruce: "It was the 1948 Partition OF THE MANDATE PALESTINE JEWISH HOMELAND that lead to those activities.
THAT was NEVER accepted by the Arabs."

So, let me get this straight..the 'left' loves the U.N....
But thinks it made a mistake giving back the land to Israel after the Holocaust....
Israel inhabits the land, and makes it thrive...
The Arabs launch missile attacks on Israel..
Israel defends itself...
Now the 'left' thinks that Israeli leaders are assholes....
Maybe the U.N. is full of shit!...OR
Israeli leaders should just let missiles fall on it citizens.
One or the other.

Maybe the 'left' has an inherent mental illness.

You guys figure it out..it seems like you want it both ways.

Which is it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:06 PM

It ain't either. For a start in your obviously one-eyed self-serving "timeline" you missed out "Arab people feel oppressed by ruling Jewish Nazis". (Now there's a pair of words that ought to push a few peoples buttons. But as olddude more or less says, if you think Israel wouldn't be behaving that way if they thought they could get away with it, you don't know much about human nature. And yes, the Arabs would do exactly the same. If they thought they could get away with it.) It goes between "Israel inhabits.." (like the land wasn't doing anything before it became Israel) & "The Arabs..." (as if they start launching missile attacks for the fun of it).

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:11 PM

Well, they'll be knocking off for Christmas soon!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:23 PM

'However, U.S. President Barack Obama and Israeli President Shimon Peres said the first step toward ending hostilities is for militants to halt rocket attacks on Israel.
"They can stop any suffering in one second," Peres said. "Stop shooting and that's it."'

from

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/19/world/meast/gaza-israel-strike/?hpt=hp_c1

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:44 PM

We all know that 999 but as long as as there are those who, like many of our posters, blame only Israel, they will not stop because that is the audience Hamas is playing to.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 02:58 PM

Steve surely they are both fighting for what they regard as their ancestral homeland?

Of course! All you have to do is ignore absolutely every other detail!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:03 PM

For a start in your obviously one-eyed self-serving "timeline" you missed out "Arab people feel oppressed by ruling Jewish Nazis". (Now there's a pair of words that ought to push a few peoples buttons. But as olddude more or less says, if you think Israel wouldn't be behaving that way if they thought they could get away with it, you don't know much about human nature. And yes, the Arabs would do exactly the same. If they thought they could get away with it.) It goes between "Israel inhabits.." (like the land wasn't doing anything before it became Israel) & "The Arabs..." (as if they start launching missile attacks for the fun of it).

We could, perhaps, keep the discussion sane (I've already been called antisemitic on another forum!!) if we are more careful about saying who is doing what to whom. Talking in vague terms about Arabs and Jews is useless or worse. Talk instead about the leaders who do these things. The vast majority of "Arabs" and "Jews" are sick to the back teeth of all this all over again. They want peace and security. Worth remembering.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:29 PM

Steve Shaw: "(I've already been called antisemitic on another forum!!)"

Well on this one the accusation was misguided by a wannabe know-it-all......Jews and Arabs are both Semites!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 03:57 PM

Worth remembering, Steve? Yeah. I was the one who said it at 11:17 today. If you look closely, you'll also see that the post of mine you're quoting was immediately after (and in direct response to) GfS who is talking tripe, not for the first time on this board. I'm not at all sure why you are quoting my post. Which suggests you might make your point a bit more carefully! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:00 PM

There is no morality to war ... every side thinks they are right. It is all about abject killing of the other guy ... namely all about force. We have laws what is a law, words on paper, what makes the laws work? .. force and threat of force.

If the world was filled with moral people, no wars, no need for laws but since it is all about greed no matter who it is, we get this stuff. It occurs in every aspect of our lives. Corporate folks gambling our retirements on a loophole to line their pockets. I read where Carnegie was worth the equal of 100 billion dollars when he died. But he paid his workers 1 dollar a day for 6 / 12hr days at the furnace. Is that right no but he did it. Greed , the same thing that starts wars. Wanting what the other guy has

I would think if you don't have the military, probably not a good idea to shoot rockets cause if you do, then your kids die because ya can't bring down a jet with a rock...

War is the result of pure evil greed nothing more and as long as there are people it will exist. Anyone can use any reason to justify it but if you are on the weaker side of the military you will pay the price

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: skarpi
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:23 PM

why did Hamas started this war ? ....and why did Isreal shoot back ...
and what about Syria .....

on FB goes pictures of children who have been shot to death ..in Gaza ....why did we not seen the children of Syria ...

this is a stupid world ...and humanity is worth nothing ...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:31 PM

The military in democracies fights wars because civilian leaders decide the soldiers should fight those wars. Look to the leaders. There lies the problem--no double entendre implied (or needed, imo).

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:33 PM

Raedwulf: "I'm not at all sure why you are quoting my post. Which suggests you might make your point a bit more carefully! ;-)"

You might do your homework, too....but, when it comes to 'calling names' it's generally a free-for-all in here, with people like you talking out their ass!

GfS

P.S. That doesn't mean that Steve hasn't earned some 'name calling'...but in this one, not so fast!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:40 PM

Sorry for the misrepresentation, Raedwolf old chap. I was just trying to make the point that we need to focus our ire on the real perpetrators and not berate whole ethnic groups. I'll let that one stick whilst apologising for any implied attribution of words that wasn't correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:44 PM

There's a saying round the Middle East, which refers to Jews and Arabs. It goes thus. "Same face, same race"

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 04:49 PM

why did Hamas started this war ?

Pointless to point it out, maybe, but Hamas did not start the present conflict.

On 8 November, the IDF made a short-range incursion into Gaza after finding more bombs along the border, leading to a gunfight with the Popular Resistance Committees. During the clash, a 13-year-old Palestinian boy was killed according to Palestinians "by machine-gun fire, either from IDF helicopters or tanks that took part in the incident." [wiki]

That's what started this whole thing off. Israeli troops inside Gaza killing a 13-year-old with all the latest hardware. I know how important it is not to let facts get in the way of a good yarn.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:01 PM

In spite of your assertions to the contrary, I hold no brief for either side. However I would point out tha Wiki is updated (sic) by unidentified contributors, so I wouldn't rely on that site for accuracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:17 PM

A thoroughly facile point, GfS, about their all being 'semites'. 'Antisemitism' by universal usage refers only to hostility to Jews, however many other possible pedantic-semantic-etymological interpretations you may pretend to think it has. Don't be disingenuous.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:30 PM

misosmetism?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:44 PM

Whaddya got against miso?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:45 PM

"the IDF made a short-range incursion into Gaza after finding more bombs along the border, leading to a gunfight with the Popular Resistance Committees."


HOW DARE the Israelis object to being blown up! What do they think they are, Palestinians??????

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:46 PM

The 1947 UN plan simply gave away large parts of "Palestine" (for want of a better word) to become a Jewish state. Unsurprisingly the Palestinians want their land back.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:46 PM

Let's not loose sight that this latest round of hostilities between Israel and the Palestinians was started with the Israeli air strike inside Gaza of Ahmed Jabari...

The day before that there were no missiles being fired at Israel by the Palestinians... Nor the day before... Nor the day before that... Nor last week... Nor last month... Or month before that... Or, or...

Yeah, as we parrot that Israel has a right to defend itself we do need to keep this in our thoughts...

Kinda reminds me of the Zimmerman/Martin case...

Oh, and before some Netanyahu apologists steps up and says, "Yeah, but Jabari was this or that, blah, blah, blah" there is an Israeli credible source who claims that Jabari had been involved in negotiating a "permanent truce agreement with Israel"...

Hmmmmmmm????

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 05:55 PM

1.
Bobert, you are wrong.

The Palestinians TARGETED an Israeli soldier IN Israel ( in a jeep) and launched a number of rockets at Israeli civilians BEFORE the Israeli strike you mention ( See Editorial page, WASH POST on Saturday.) WashPo says it is the Palestinian's fault.




http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/11/18/Bloggers-Catch-More-Dead-Child-Fak




Robert,

So YOU repudiate the treaty that ended WW I AND established the Mandate of Palestine?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:00 PM

"The day before that there were no missiles being fired at Israel by the Palestinians... Nor the day before... Nor the day before that... Nor last week... Nor last month... Or month before that... Or, or..."



This "BOBERT FACT" is false, and a lie.

To have a difference of opinion is one thing, to make up lies to support one's opinion is vile.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:05 PM

Yes he was, Bobert. That killing was a needless outrage.

Bruce, of course the Israelis object to being blown up, though I think the Gazans in recent years have a fair bit to object to as well. Hundreds of women and kids slaughtered, homes and infrastructure demolished, white phosphorus, living under siege... Having said all that, even if you object to being blown up you should be slightly more careful than they were to avoid shooting a child with machine guns from a helicopter gunship. Of course, the IDF has never really shrunk from killing children, occasionally even with long-range remote-controlled unmanned rifles pointing into Gaza. Gosh, and those hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets left all over the place in southern Lebanon, lest we forget.

I don't rely too heavily on wiki for accuracy, John, just to get me in the ballpark occasionally. But you'll find that story corroborated all over the media if you look.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM

"BB" is the nick-name of Netanyahu so my post had nothing to do with "bb", i.e. beardedbruce...

I think most people write his nickname "Bibi". Avoids confusion!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:14 PM

Using "Breitbart" as a source is like using Hitler as source for Jewish rights, bb...

Find a reliable source... Breitbart ain't one... It is a right wing propaganda machine...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:27 PM

Bobert, it's more honest, IMO, to challenge the content of a source rather than the source itself as all sources are biased to some degree.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:37 PM

MtheGM: "A thoroughly facile point, GfS, about their all being 'semites'. 'Antisemitism' by universal usage refers only to hostility to Jews, however many other possible pedantic-semantic-etymological interpretations you may pretend to think it has. Don't be disingenuous."


Ya' think?

From this Bobby Fischer site......remember how stupid and disingenuous he was?
"Reporters gaped incredulously at one another. Asked if he supported the United Nations' sanctions against Yugoslavia, Fischer launched upon an attack of the UN for rescinding "a pretty good resolution against Israel about Zionism is racism. ..." He was merely warming up to the subject. "'Do you regard yourself as an anti-Communist fighter?' First of all, we have to understand what communism is. I mean, to me, real communism, the Soviet communism, is basically a mask for Bolshevism, which is a mask for Judaism." And when asked about his being widely characterized as anti-Semitic, Fischer replied, "In the first place, this term anti-Semitism is a nonsense term, because my understanding is that the Arabs are also Semites, not only the Jews, so I don't know what that means. I'm definitely not anti- Arab."

Waving,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:48 PM

Yo, Bobad...

Google up Breitbart...

They are a right wing propaganda machine...

Heck, I can't disprove the report about Hamas targeting the Israeli jeep driver but...

... they just make shit up all the time...

Google 'um...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 07:54 PM

It is a bit of a crap source, bobad. I've never seen it before but it looks like sensationalism gone beserk to me. When you say to challenge the content of the source, you're kind of asking us to waste a lot of energy reading shite and then having to explain back why it's shite. Like Guffer's shroud video, sort of style. Avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:00 PM

Yo Bobert Google "Israeli jeep hit" and you will find scores of reports of this incident including one from the International Herald Tribune. Like I said I don't get hung up on the sources I try to find corroborating evidence for the content.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:13 PM

Two little boys in the back seat of daddy's car are fighting.

Dad: "Hey you guys... stop it!"

#1- "He hit me first!"

#2- "Well he pushed me!"

#1- "He was on MY side of the seat and wouldn't move!"

#2- "It isn't YOUR seat, and I wasn't hurting you!"



----------------

"They fired first!"

"Well, they had bombs aimed at us!"

"All we wanted was OUR land back!"

"That land was given to US in 1948!"

"That wasn't fair.. our ancestors lived there WAY before that!"

"But in 1924..."

"Yes, but in 1873..."

"We have records dating to 672!"

"Our people were sent here by God over 2000 years ago!"

"And OUR people lived here when they came!"

"We trace OUR people to The Garden of Eden!"

(insert favorite dates) .... and so it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:15 PM

Yeah but you're kind of tacitly dignifying whichever source you give. We don't know about your corroborating. You need to tell us about it. John forced me to defend my source for a similar kind of incident even though it was wiki. I can't complain. I don't mind tacitly dignifying wiki most of the time but I wouldn't give you a quote from the Daily Sport and expect you to believe it just because it came from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:16 PM

Mine was to bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:25 PM

Okay, bobad... Breitbart "may" have it somewhat correct... Let's put it this way... If I am Hamas and I am going to kill "one" Israeli in the Jeep and have thousands of rockets and lots of small arms I should be ab;le to pull that off, right???

But seems, like the Gulf of Tonkin incident that there was no-harm-no-foul but a nice hot war on everyone's hands...

This is all bull shit...

Look at the timing... Right after the election

Tell me that this isn't isn't the first step toward Israel attacking Iran...

Tell me...

No, this is all about using the Palestinians as pawns in their game to invade Iran... Next thing we'll be hearing is how Iran is supplying the Palestinians and...

...watch how soon Netanyalu has the US sucked into another Middle East War...

I would bet on it!!!

So, if you want another Iraq then keep following the crumbs that Dick Cheney/Netanyalu war-crumb-line...

This is what this is about...

Helen Keller can see this from her grave...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:39 PM

Israel could find itself surrounded by some very large enemies this time. That could the difference. I thought Bibi was going to attack Iran before the US election, but worried internal voices in his own government stayed his hand. He won't want this lot on the boil for too long if he's still intent on attacking Iran. If he does attack he will immediately alienate Turkey and Egypt, neither of whom is exactly a minnow. That nice Mr Erdogan will be getting hourly updates, you bet. I don't think playing another Gaza war card will win him his election, not this time. There is a limit to what ordinary Israelis will be prepared to put up with. Fine patriotic talk from Bibi don't mean diddley when half the country is cowering under their beds every night. It wasn't quite like that last time.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 08:45 PM

We kinda seein' this the same, Steve...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,songster
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 09:49 PM

Hamas is doubling down on the Algerian playbook of the 50s.(See the quasi-documentary 'Battle of Algiers') They are committing terrorism on both Israeli and Palestinian civilians and provoking a response, preferably one they can characterize as out of proportion. They are playing to the resurgent Arab street of the somewhat more (small d) democratic states of North Africa.
It is amusing to see the righteous indignation of so many who have become accepting of the much greater violence visited by the Syrian junta on their civlians. Amusing, but, not ha-ha funny.
Meanwhile, I can't blame Israel for defending her civilians.
If Israel didn't have the 'iron dome' missile defense working in her favor, I'm pretty sure there would be a much higher Palestinian casualty rate.
Hamas is playing a shoot-the-moon strategy that is killing a lot of people. They perceive it as to their advantage to keep the Palestinian body count front and center.
Sooner or later the world will pay attention to the next round of violence in Libya, or Syria, or Georgia, or China, and the Palestinians will have been screwed yet again. But at least by their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:26 PM

Don't know why I'm bothering to argue with that leading intellectual guru on this thread, GfS; but heigh-ho it passes the time.

So you can cite that well-known brilliant chessmaster & later loony Bobby Fisher on your side of the argument, eh? & that is supposed to settle my semantic hash is it. Just try reading his wiki entry, about how he ultimately lost his marbles to the extent that countries were striving not to let him in.

Any more such infallible linguistic authorities to cite in support of your eccentric interpretation of a well-known term of universally recognised application?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Nov 12 - 11:27 PM

Fischer ~ sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:47 AM

Bobert
Let's not loose sight that this latest round of hostilities between Israel and the Palestinians was started with the Israeli air strike inside Gaza of Ahmed Jabari...

The day before that there were no missiles being fired at Israel by the Palestinians... Nor the day before... Nor the day before that... Nor last week... Nor last month... Or month before that... Or, or...

Please note the date of this report.
It is when the current missile barrage began.
The Guardian, October24th
More than 70 rockets have been fired into southern Israel from Gaza since the departure on Tuesday(previous day!) of the emir of Qatar, whose visit to the Gaza Strip was seen as a boost for its ruling faction, Hamas. Three foreign agricultural workers were injured and several buildings were hit.

Four militants were killed in resurgent Israeli air strikes overnight as a short period of calm ended. Three were members of Hamas's military wing, the Ezzedin al-Qassam brigades, according to reports on its website.

Hamas, which normally distances itself from rocket fire from Gaza, has claimed responsibility for some operations in recent days. "These holy missions come in response to the repeated, continuous crimes of the enemy against our people, which killed four and injured 10 in the past 48 hours," it said in a statement.

Israel's defence minister, Ehud Barak, said he would order whatever action was necessary to stop rocket fire from Gaza. "If a ground operation will be necessary, there will be a ground operation. Nobody is eager for this but we will act as we are required to stop this wave and to increase the effectiveness of the operation

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:37 AM

It is amusing to see the righteous indignation of so many who have become accepting of the much greater violence visited by the Syrian junta on their civlians. Amusing, but, not ha-ha funny.
Meanwhile, I can't blame Israel for defending her civilians.

Well I don't mind telling you that I'm indignant about many of Israel's actions in recent days. But, as far as I recall, you've never asked me (and I should like to know whether you've asked anyone else on this thread) whether I've become accepting of the violence of the Assad regime. For your information, I haven't become accepting of it at all. In fact, I'm fuming at the west's abject failure to intervene. I suggest you research matters a bit more carefully in order to avoid making such unsupportable and unfair assertions.

As for Israel's defending of its citizens, well after all these decades of not getting on very well with its its neighbours it's come to a situation in which half the Israeli population is living in daily fear of being rocketed. Some progress. Some defending.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:47 AM

so think who are they who will gain from this ?? Iran ? Isreal or Hamas or is it who is gaining selling weapons to Hamas ? to start this ...

it won´t matter what I think ...but Iran ...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:19 AM

""We all know that 999 but as long as as there are those who, like many of our posters, blame only Israel, they will not stop because that is the audience Hamas is playing to.""

And we know also that as long as as there are those who, like many of our posters, blame only Gaza's Palestinians, they will not stop because the audience is only getting the Israeli side of the story.

Bobad, have you ever, for one millisecond, considered the possibility that Israel is ever in the slightest degree, at fault?

I thought not!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:07 AM

And we know also that as long as as there are those who, like many of our posters, blame only Gaza's Palestinians, they will not stop because the audience is only getting the Israeli side of the story.

That is very apposite, especially in relation to the US. There's a right-wing bloke on a.n. other forum with whom I disagree on just about everything, except this. He tells me that you will not find a significant media outlet there that is not enthusiastically in Israel's camp. That good old Israel lobby, AIPAC et al., sees to that. In the Land of the Free the media is, in effect, censored. Gagged. One side of the story indeed. There's a horrid article in today's Guardian written by an Islamophobic Israel zealot, infuriating to read, but a couple of days ago, by way of a valiant attempt at balance, there was a relatively measured article from a Hamas representative. You still have to dig hard to find fair coverage, but at least it's there somewhere this end.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:04 AM

Bobert,

My apologies on one point. The WashPo article was in FRIDAY's paper.

Washington Post Friday 16 November 2012 Page A20

"The immediate cause of the exploding conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip was a series of attacks by Palestinian militants, including a missile fired at jeep carrying Israeli soldiers inside Israel, and a rain of rockets against Israeli towns - more than 180 in the course of a few days. Israel could not but respond, and when it did, it chose to deliver a strategic blow: the assassination of Hamas's military commander, Ahmed Jabari, and airstrikes against scores of sites where the Palestinians had stored a large arsenal of rockets and missiles, including Iranian-built models capable of hitting central Israel."



I have to wonder about those supporting Hamas in this case- the ISRAELIs target military HQ, arsenals, and military leaders, and the firng points of those rockets and missiles. Hamas has been targeting the civilian population of Israel, and even then have killed a number of Gazans with those missiles and rockets that misfire and fall into Gaza.

Yet NO ONE has a complaint about Israeli civilians being attacked, or Gazans being killed by Palestinian rockets.


Looks to me like a bigoted effort to criticize Israel, and Israel alone.



Now, tell me why the initial border for any peace talks should NOT be the last one ACCEPTED by the Arabs, back in 1924 or so. Unless the effort is to cripple or destroy Israel, of course- THAT seems to be acceptable to many here.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:17 AM

Here is the Guardian piece, "Hamas Leaves Israel No Choice" that infuriated Steve.
No Islamophobia, just putting Israel's case, which is unacceptable to Steve.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/19/hamas-leaves-israel-no-choice


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 08:41 AM

skarpi - Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:47 AM has it right.

The next thing will be a nuclear device given to Hamas by Iran, and the resultant explosion will kill 85% of the Israeli population ( ALL, not just the Jews) and most if not all the Palestinians from fallout. Israel will then destroy the surrounding Arab nations, and the destruction of the oilfields will lead into WW III, as China loses all access to oil ( It will take 75+ years to put out the fire.) Since Israel will have been destroyed, not only Jerusalam will be removed from contention, but Mecca will also be turned into a radioactive glass plain.


And those supporting Hamas here can take what joy in it that they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 09:22 AM

After WW2, should Europeans of Jewish faith have been given their own nation WITHIN Europe..?

I'd have given them Austria. Not as warm as Palestine but the ski-ing's better.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 10:27 AM

I ask again, then, Chris B, as this query wasn't answered last time when I addressed it to WAV from whom this brilliant idea first emanated ~~

Would that have involved & included transferring from then-named Palestine the 1-2 million Jews who had been settling there since the 1890s

- establishing some hundreds of kibbutzim & other settlements, cultivating the Negev into a blooming productive land when everyone had assured them that it was just an unusable desert, and building from scratch the flourishing & populous metropolis of Tel Aviv

- to this new-established Austrian colony for the Jews?

If not, then what use would it have been proleptically to have obviated the present situation?

If so ~~ HOW??

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 10:45 AM

""this is all about using the Palestinians as pawns in their game to invade Iran...""

If that were so, are the Gaza Palestinians not "smart enough" (as Helen Keller) to clearly see that? If so, what would be the gain for the Palestinians,in being knowingly complicit in continuing to be such a pawn of the parties you refer to?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 11:11 AM

I have read all of the above posts ,and ,unless I missed something , nobody seems to have mentioned the not unimportant fact (in my view ,anyway ) that HAMAS have consistently and vehemently denied Israel the right to exist as a nation & a country.Under the circumstances ,therefore , there can never be a resolution to the present problem as long as HAMAS continue with this attitude ,other than a totally military one .As for Iran ,and its attitude ; well ,they must share some blame also,with their talk of "wiping Israel off the face of the Earth" , or whatever , and they are not even Arabs !!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 11:32 AM

Lets do a little review here...

When I made the assertion that Palestinians weren't sending rockets into Israel until after the Nov 14th assassination of Ahmed Jabari what I meant (which maybe wasn't as plain as it should have been) was missiles targeting civilians like we have seen since the assassination...

The single anti-tank missile fired at a military target patrolling Gaza (why was it there?) is just smoke and mirrors for the Netanyahu/Cheney assault on Gaza...

I mean, lets keep things in perspective... Incidentally, 4 Palestinians were killed in the "Gulf of Tonkin" jeep episode and no Israelis...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:37 PM

Bobert, Please learn to read...

YOU state:"was missiles targeting civilians like we have seen since the assassination..."


The article said:
"and a rain of rockets against Israeli towns - more than 180 in the course of a few days."
BEFORE THE ISRAELI ASSASSINATION. THE HAMAS ROCKETS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TARGETED AT CIVILIANS IN ISRAEL.


I have to yell because you keep making statements without any regard to the facts THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN PRESENTED.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:52 PM

Unreported killings by Israel:

http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/palestine-and-israel/2027-who-is-doing-the-killing-in-gaza-noam-chomsky-and-others-challenge-the

Pretty easy to see who the real aggressors are in this conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 12:54 PM

Bobert,

Incidentally, , ALL the Israelis killed so far have been CIVILIANS, as opposed to something about 50% ( as claimed by HAMAS, which includes dead Syrian, Israeli and other children.)


So just keep things in perspective, and stop making obviously false claims that the facts refute, just to browbeat others into agreeing with your opinion. You are abetter person than that, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:25 PM

Bobert,

"The single anti-tank missile fired at a military target patrolling Gaza (why was it there?) "

You have a problem with the Israelis patrolling WITHIN ISRAEL along a border with a known history of attacks and bombings? YOu want to remove all police from the inner cities, too?

Are you intentionally wanting Israelis to be killed, or is it that you just don't care about people who might be Jewish? ( since a number of the Israelis killed have been Moslem, and the rockets that have been aimed at the Israeli civilians have been aimed at ALL ISRAELIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:39 PM

The Jihadists in Gaza are duty bound to kill Jews.
The only ones within reach are on the border, so exchanges there are frequent and nothing to do with the current Israeli action.
That is the result of their other means of killing Jews, the rockets.
The current barrage, now admitted by Hamas, has been going for weeks, closing schools and businesses and terrorising a third of the population of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:58 PM

""Yet NO ONE has a complaint about Israeli civilians being attacked, or Gazans being killed by Palestinian rockets.


Looks to me like a bigoted effort to criticize Israel, and Israel alone.""

Either you haven't bothered to read the whole of this thread or you are a bloody liar.

Which is it Bearded Bruce? Too lazy to bother, or just plain dishonest?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:59 PM

What puzzles me is how can a people who suffered so much at the hands of an extremist regime during WW2 now believe that it has a moral right to act in a similar way by occupying someone else's country and systematically exterminating its people? One thing is certain, it couldn't have happened without US complicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:24 PM

by occupying someone else's country
It is not.
and systematically exterminating its people?
Are you being serious?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 02:41 PM

Whose country, leveller? At the time of the main Jewish 'occupation', 1890-1940, it was first off part of the Ottoman Empire. The land on which settlements, towns, cities, were established was acquired entirely by purchase from its legitimate owners ~~ presumably mainly Turks, with no objections raised by the overall authority, the Ottoman government, until 1917; when the Turks, Germany's allies in WW1, were expelled by British forces under General Allenby, who put in place a military administration until, after the war, the internationally authorised body the League of Nations gave a Mandate to govern the territory to the British government; which lasted until the withdrawal of the British and the proclamation of the State of Israel in 1948. During the Mandate, purchase and settlement of land continued. Obviously many Arab villages, whose country, NB, it had never been in any sort of political or governmental sense, were less than friendly to their new Jewish neighbours; tho this was by no means universally the case, as many such benefits as more modern agricultural methods to the joint benefit of both communities occurred. And there were of course the well-known problems of 3-way conflicts of interest, leading to hostility, repression, refusal of landing rights for refugees from European persecution leading to terrorist outbreaks and so on. Of all this I am sure you are aware - I realise I am simplifying a complex situation but am confident you will recognise what I mean here.

Do you really consider all this as an illegitimate invasion of other people's sovereign territory and consequent persecution of a particular demographic within it, equivalent to the invasions and atrocities carried out by the Nazis throughout Europe in the late-30s/early-40s?

Come now.

The behaviour of the Israelis over the past couple of decades, as I never tire of saying, has been a vast disappointment to the expectations of many, like me, who worked for its establishment. But all these invidious and offensive comparisons with the goings-on in Europe over the time leading up to the State's establishment just will not wash.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 03:56 PM

Well, you make some good points, Michael, but I am hoping that your characterisation of Israeli behaviour as a vast disappointment was intended as masterly understatement. Israel is more than capable of not only occupying someone else's country but also of carrying out what is tantamount to ethnic cleansing. Read about their treatment of the Bedouin in the Negev, going on ever so quietly and nastily below the headlines.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/05/bedouin-negev-israel

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:24 PM

Could it be explained why the lack of political or governmental ownership of a country by its occupants, presumably previously subject to some sort of occupation by others, somehow makes it OK for people, in some cases holding deeds to properties in the cities, to be displaced from their homes?

Why people with olive trees hundreds of years old in their orchards are regarded as transients with no claim to live in their homes?

Using the Ottoman empire as the model for who actually owned the land could mean that the Greeks can't be seen as the owners of Greece, the Egyptians of Egypt, the Albanians of Albania, and anyone who has lived under any other political system than a democracy in which they were involved as vulnerable to any other group who takes it into its head to walk in and take over as freeholder, and eject the dwellers in the land in the way the original Israelites did the original occupants of the disputed areas. They didn't, however, claim that they hadn't lived there or hadn't governed themselves. Just that God had over-ruled that arrangement.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 04:39 PM

""Using the Ottoman empire as the model for who actually owned the land could mean that the Greeks can't be seen as the owners of Greece, the Egyptians of Egypt, the Albanians of Albania, and anyone who has lived under any other political system than a democracy in which they were involved as vulnerable to any other group who takes it into its head to walk in and take over as freeholder, and eject the dwellers in the land in the way the original Israelites did the original occupants of the disputed areas""


Let's ectend that perspective to the original peoples of North and South America, Australia and other locations in the world where original peoples (and even original settlers) have been displaced from their land. There are surely a multitude of similar examples to draw from, globally.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:00 PM

"Let's ectend that perspective to the original peoples of North and South America, Australia and other locations in the world where original peoples (and even original settlers) have been displaced from their land."

Not really comparable surely, for while some descendants of survivors do remain, in most cases cited above, the vast majority of such indigenous peoples were exterminated with the invasion of European settlers over two hundred years ago?

That is not the case with the indigenous occupants of Palestine, who while not as yet exterminated by modern European settlers (not for want of trying mind you), now currently exist imprisoned in their own increasingly diminished indigenous lands, in one of the most densely populated regions on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:00 PM

Have no idea what you think you are saying, Penny. The Ottoman Empire wasn't any sort of 'model' of anything; they were the legitimate, internationally recognised government of that particular territory at the time under consideration, just as the government of the United States is at present the government of the United States and the government of France is the government of France. I have, frankly, not the remotest idea of what you are on about; and I do not believe you have either. Nobody 'walked in and took over' anything. They bought the land, with money, in an agreed two-way transaction, from the people who owned it and had the legal right to sell it -- just as the blouse you are wearing belongs to you, not to Harrods or Selfridges or Macys or Bloomingdales or Marks & Spencer or whoever you bought it from, because you gave them a mutually agreed sum of money for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:06 PM

Steve,

Care to comment on the actions of the ARAB occupiers of the West Bank from 1948 to 1967?

Or the mass expulsion of Jews from ARAB countries ( a larger number than the Palestinians who left Israel on their own[Check the present Moslem population of Israel vs the Jewish population of the Arab nations])

I grew up across the street from a Palestinian family from Ramallah- THEY were driven out in 1948 by the Moslems since they were Christian.

Are you willing to allow the Arab countries to act in a manner that you would prohibit Israel from doing? If so, why? Isn't that the definition of bigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:07 PM

Steve, compared to their brethren in surrounding countries, especially Egypt, the Israeli Bedouin are the lucky ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:36 PM

Latest article from the Guardian in the UK:

It's Palestinians who have the right to defend themselves

Some excerpts from the article:

The way western politicians and media have pontificated about Israel's onslaught on Gaza, you'd think it was facing an unprovoked attack from a well-armed foreign power.

***

In fact, an examination of the sequence of events over the last month shows that Israel played the decisive role in the military escalation: from its attack on a Khartoum arms factory reportedly supplying arms to Hamas and the killing of 15 Palestinian fighters in late October, to the shooting of a mentally disabled Palestinian in early November, the killing of a 13 year-old in an Israeli incursion and, crucially, the assassination of the Hamas commander Ahmed Jabari last Wednesday during negotiations over a temporary truce.

****

to portray Israel as some kind of victim with every right to "defend itself" from attack from "outside its borders" is a grotesque inversion of reality. Israel has after all been in illegal occupation of both the West Bank and Gaza, where most of the population are the families of refugees who were driven out of what is now Israel in 1948, for the past 45 years.

***

Gazans are an occupied people and have the right to resist, including by armed force (though not to target civilians), while Israel is an occupying power that has an obligation to withdraw – not a right to defend territories it controls or is colonising by dint of military power.

The world in general is becoming less afraid to utter these obvious truths out loud. Zionism's long extended "free ticket" to commit naked aggression, land robbery, ethnic cleansing, and colonization on the basis of lingering western historical guilt over the terrible WWII Nazi atrocities against the Jews appears to be coming to its inevitable end. "That dog won't hunt" much longer, folks. Palestinians are equal human beings to anyone else, and they're doing what anyone else in their desperate position would do. Like the desperate captive Jews in the Warsaw ghetto in 1944, they are fighting back with their very meagre weaponry against a mighty occupying imperial aggressor force...as best they can.

If they did not so resist, it would be beyond belief.

What would Israel do if a foreign group suddenly assassinated their top military commander and treated them as they treat Gazans? They'd fight that foreign group, that's what they'd do....only they're armed to the teeth with one of the world's foremost military forces. They are not the victims in this situation. They are the great power provoking it. They are the armoured hand holding the club and the whip. Gazans are like the "Jews" or the "Gypsies" (in the WWII sense) of the present era...they live miserably under the whip of Israeli military power. Of course they resist. Anyone would.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:43 PM

LH,



Care to comment on the actions of the ARAB occupiers of the West Bank from 1948 to 1967?

Or the mass expulsion of Jews from ARAB countries ( a larger number than the Palestinians who left Israel on their own[Check the present Moslem population of Israel vs the Jewish population of the Arab nations])

I grew up across the street from a Palestinian family from Ramallah- THEY were driven out in 1948 by the Moslems since they were Christian.

Are you willing to allow the Arab countries to act in a manner that you would prohibit Israel from doing? If so, why? Isn't that the definition of bigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:46 PM

From yesterday's Guardian:

Hamas leaves Israel no choice

Israel will not allow the lives of its citizens to be endangered. If only Gaza's leaders felt the same, writes Israel's deputy minister of foreign affairs

Hamas's charter includes the aspiration that "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews)". While many concentrate on its death-cult worship, its bloodthirsty killing of adversaries, or its contempt for women, Christians and homosexuals, it is this aspiration for genocide that is at the root of Hamas activities. This is the primary reason why Hamas, the governing regime in Gaza, will never recognise or accept a peace accord with Israel in any form.

Since Israel left Gaza in 2005, thousands of rockets have rained down on Israeli cities and towns in deliberate contravention not just of international law, but all humanity and morality. While some might suggest the so-called blockade is the cause of the attacks, it is actually a consequence. The restrictions were only implemented two years after Israel left Gaza, when it was clear that instead of building a "Singapore of the Middle East", Hamas was interested in importing stockpiles of weapons from places like Iran. Instead of building a future for its people, Hamas built an open-air prison for the million and a half inhabitants who fell into its grasp.

However, Gaza was never enough for an organisation whose raison d'etre is the annihilation of Israel, and whose charter begins with the ominous warning that "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it".

Every rocket from Gaza is a double war crime. First, the rockets are aimed at civilians; second, they are fired from built-up civilian areas, often close to schools, mosques and hospitals. And about 10% of Hamas rockets fired from Gaza don't reach Israel, exploding in Gaza. Mohammed Sadallah – a four-year-old killed on Saturday, his body displayed in a press conference with Ismail Haniyeh, Hamas's leader – was, according to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, most likely killed by an errant Hamas rocket.

Hamas leaders frequently declare that their people actively seek death. Fathi Hamad, a senior member of Hamas, stated in 2008 that "for the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women and children excel. Accordingly we created a human shield of women, children and elderly. We seek death as you [Israelis] desire life."

Hamas seeks conflagration and war. Death and destruction is seen as a win-win calculation, as any Israeli death is considered a glorious achievement and every Palestinian death that of a "holy martyr", providing badly needed propaganda locally and internationally. Seemingly there are not enough deaths for them, so Hamas's military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, has been busy sending out pictures of massacres in Syria, claiming they were taken in Gaza.

Israel has been left with little choice but to root out this nest of hate and destruction. No nation on earth would allow a third of its population to live in constant fear of incessant fire emanating from a neighbouring territory. Our government exercised restraint. We gave the international community time to act. However, there was a deafening silence, demonstrating to Israelis that we had to take action to protect our citizens.

Those who refused to condemn the attacks on Israeli citizens have no right to condemn Israel's response to establish peace and quiet for its citizens. This is the basic obligation of any sovereign nation, and we will continue taking any action necessary to achieve this aim.

In the face of this undeniable truth, the usual accusation is that Israel is responding with "disproportionate force" or carrying out "collective punishment". I urge all who make this accusation to consider that Israel has successfully targeted in excess of 1,300 weapons caches, rocket launchers and other elements of Hamas's terrorist infrastructure. Yet despite this, the number of Palestinian casualties remains around one for every 13 strikes, the majority killed being active members of Hamas and combatants.

Israel will not allow its citizens' lives to be endangered. The international community must call on the Palestinian leadership in the Gaza Strip to take the same approach with its own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 05:48 PM

LH,


Do you acknowledge that HAMAS is guilty of war crimes, in siting weapons in civilian homes, hospitals, and schools?

Have you thought about calling for THEM to stop?

When you start mentioning the facts that the Palestinians are treated far better by the Israelis than they were by the Jordanians ( from 1948 to 1967) and that Egypt has a border with Gaza, and if Gazan's are starving it is equally EGYPT'S fault, you can take Israel to task for it's imperfections.



And why should the border for the two state solution NOT be the last one accepted by the Arabs, from 1924 or so? The 77% of the Mandate territory the Arabs were given was in proportion to the ENTIRE Moslem population- and JEWS were forbidden to settle in the Arab portion.

And why should the Palestinians get any land or compensation for their 640,000 refugees from the formation of Israel when the 820,000 Jews who were driven from Arab nations got nothing?

Look at the number of Arab Moslems who stayed in Israel, and the number of Jews allowed to remain in Arab nations- WHO WOULD YOU SAY conducted the ethnic cleansing?


The attacks ON Hamas are aimed at the military infrastructure- the attacks BY Hamas are aimed at civilians. IF the Israelis wanted to kill civilians, they could just do what other nations in the area have done- which they do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:03 PM

Steve, compared to their brethren in surrounding countries, especially Egypt, the Israeli Bedouin are the lucky ones.

Pretty crass, Keith, even for you. Perhaps you'd like to rethink that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:06 PM

Excellent post, LH.

Like the desperate captive Jews in the Warsaw ghetto in 1944, they are fighting back with their very meagre weaponry against a mighty occupying imperial aggressor force...as best they can.

The terrorist is easy to identify. The terrorist is the one with the small bomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM

""Not really comparable surely""

Very comparable, as it relates to the PennyS post.


That is not the case with the indigenous occupants of Palestine, who...are currently exist imprisoned in their own increasingly diminished indigenous lands, in one of the most densely populated regions on earth.

The territory of Palestine historically comprised more than gaza - taking in what is now Israel, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jordan. So, as dire as conditions may now be in Gaza, many Palestians live in other areas under different conditions than you refer to (in Gaza).

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 06:31 PM

Bet that was hard work, bobad, reproducing a whole newspaper article and saying nothing yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:00 PM

""Palestinians constitute about one-half of Jordan's population (about 2.2 million Palestinians), and most of these Palestinians are Sunni Muslim. A people without a sovereign state of its own, Jordan's Palestinian community is comprised of those who found themselves under Jordanian rule when part of Palestine was incorporated into Transjordan upon its foundation in 1946 and those who fled to Jordan as a result of Israel's 1948 War of Independence and the 1967 Six-Day War, in which Israel occupied the Palestinian-populated West Bank and Gaza Strip. Palestinians range from prominent individuals assimilated fully into Jordanian society to impoverished refugees.""

Source

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:07 PM

Why are Israeli military out riding the borders of Gaza???

If you had someone with a big gun walking 'round and 'round your house you might get pissed... No??? I would...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:18 PM

GUEST,CS stated

""while some descendants of survivors do remain, in most cases cited above, the vast majority of such indigenous peoples were exterminated with the invasion of European settlers over two hundred years ago?""

Fact check for Canada does support this statement.

""Although estimates vary of the Aboriginal population of Canada at the time of the arrival of Europeans, anthropologists give a tentative figure of about 350 000 INDIANS. Thereafter, the number of Aboriginal people declined dramatically owing to disease, starvation and warfare...and continued to decline until 1920 . Since then, however, it has increased at a rate faster than that of the general population: between 1996 and 2006, the Aboriginal population grew by 45%, compared with 8% for the non-Aboriginal population. According to Statistics Canada, in 2006 there were approximately 1, 172 790 aboriginal people in Canada. ""Source;Canadian Encyclopedia

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:26 PM

That's right. A lot of people don't realise how little Gaza is. You could walk across it in two hours or less and cycle its length in less than an hour. There are constant hassles in the border area between armed Israeli troops acting like thugs and ya-booing from Gazan teenagers. Kids getting shot on very slender pretexts is commonplace in the border area, even occasionally by unmanned remote-control weapons. You don't have to be doing too much wrong in Gaza to be condemned to summary execution. Yeah, you can get riled by kids chucking stones and making shooting noises at you as they point sticks. I suppose you can also get riled seeing soldiers taunting you and threatening to kill you like fish in a barrel in your open prison (especially when you are almost certain to have known friends, relatives and teachers killed by the same army). Talking of provocation, an old bloke in Gaza was photographed carrying a placard that read You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all but say that I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:27 PM

That was to Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:31 PM

Yeah, Steve... This idea that vamping on Palestinians makes Israel safer is lunacy on crack... There is no logic in this yet the US has been wedded to this shit for 60 years...

When do the adults get a voice???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 07:32 PM

The Ottoman empire was the established authority for about 800 years - but it was no longer an authority from which domain could legitimately be acquired, in the aftermath of the first World War, when the mandate was first imposed. The mandate was an illegal occupying force. It had no proper authority to create a Jewish state. The illegal Jewish occupation has continued since 1947 and been illegally extended.

Of course the Palestinians fight their invaders.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:30 AM

The Mandate did not "create a Jewish state", Richard. The United Nations did. The Jews of then-Palestine accepted their partition. The Arabs, encouraged by all the surrounding Muslim states, didn't, leaving it to these states to launch a joint invasion. The forces of 7 nations simultaneously invaded at 7 different points on the border, attacking a comparatively small group of Jewish settlers dating back to the C19. Who gave them a bloody nose and drove them back across the border and then stayed put in the additional territory they had thus acquired. What would you have had them do? Go back to the UN-resolved bit & wait for the other lot to try again? The refugees, so-called, were meanwhile instructed to leave by the invading powers and told they could return when it was all over: do you really think the Israelis should then have said, 'OK, you can come back now', creating a fine 5th Column, when it wasn't even they who had pushed them out in the first place?

Those are the realities of the "refugee problem" and the "Israeli War Of Independence". The first was created by the Muslim invaders themselves, not by the Israelis. The second was a war of defence, not of 'independence' ~~ which they already had by UN resolution and de facto recognition from most UN members, including the USSR & the USA.

Get the historic facts right first, please, before making inaccurate judgments on what happened in 1948, and the aftermath thereof.

~M~

This is in no way to justify all that has happened since, when Israel has acted unacceptably in ways too many to numerate & has lost the support it initially had from many in the international Jewish community ~~ tho, as to Gaza, they are clearly just this once mainly in the right of it, but there is another thread ongoing to go into all that so I shan't pursue that part of it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:44 AM

The UN had no power so to give Palestinian land to a Jewish state. As you rightly say, the inhabitants (other than the beneficiaries of the Jewish state) have never accepted that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 01:15 AM

It wasn't "Palestinian land", Richard, as there was no such thing at the time ~~ no Palestinian state. Up to 1917 it had been Ottoman-Turkish colonial land; then it became British Mandated territory under the League of Nations, which no longer existed and the British wished to withdraw. So the UN clearly, by then-universally* accepted world authority for the settlement of such disputes, had inherited from the now-defunct League the responsibility to decide on how the territory should be disposed when the British left.

~M~

*most of the Muslim countries which set out to destroy Israel were members of the UN & thus notionally bound to abide by its decisions

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 01:20 AM

If the UN didn't have the 'power', then who do you think did, Richard?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 03:22 AM

OK, MtheGM, I may have over-egged it a little but my father was always very critical about the way that the state of Israel came into being. He knew the middle-east well, did most of his war service there, spending time on the staff of General Alexander. He had many friends there and after the war considered taking up a civilian position. Unfortunately, I can't ask him for his comments as he's no longer with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 04:29 AM

"Have no idea what you think you are saying, Penny." "I have, frankly, not the remotest idea of what you are on about; and I do not believe you have either."

Thank you for taking the trouble to assume that I am not intelligent enough to post here and inform everyone else of your assessment.

My point was, and is, that there were, and are, people whose families have lived in the disputed territories time out of mind, that these places were not empty, and that families have been expelled from their homes and their land to enable the expansion of Israel, despite their having legal title to their homes and land.
This is regardless of their status with regard to nationhood.

"The Ottoman Empire wasn't any sort of 'model' of anything; they were the legitimate, internationally recognised government of that particular territory at the time under consideration, just as the government of the United States is at present the government of the United States and the government of France is the government of France."

My reference to the Ottomans was to the fact that that Empire had been the rulers of the area before the mandate, and that it was their loss of sovereignty that left the area politically stateless. Obviously this happened in other areas as well. Since the Ottomans were not the original rulers of the areas they governed during the existence of the Empire, and did not rule in the interests of the indigenous peoples there, I feel it is reasonable to regard them, despite contemporary international recognition, as questionable rulers. You should have heard the Greek guide on the tours I took the other year on the subject of legitimacy of their rule.

"Nobody 'walked in and took over' anything. They bought the land, with money, in an agreed two-way transaction, from the people who owned it and had the legal right to sell it"

I don't dispute that the first Jewish settlers (as opposed to the ones already there) paid legally for the property they settled in. But there are Palestinian people now who still have the paperwork for the properties they held under the Ottomans but are denied the right to occupy those properties, so how did that happen? The way things are done have changed. And there are people who see the trees their families have nurtured over centuries torn up by settlers. Is that nobody walking in and taking over?

" -- just as the blouse you are wearing belongs to you, not to Harrods or Selfridges or Macys or Bloomingdales or Marks & Spencer or whoever you bought it from, because you gave them a mutually agreed sum of money for it."

Shameful argument. What about the house I have bought? My car? Why use the example of women's clothing? Are you trying to use a way of putting me down as a gurlie with no brains? BTW, I get my blouses from Oxfam. The previous owner has donated them. We both mutually agree to support people whose lives have been harmed by situations not of their making, and Oxfam enables the legal transfer without hurting anyone.

And that argument does not answer the case of the people of Deir Yassin, where title did not seem to pass with the usual legal conveyancing.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:07 AM

Penny ~~ I was going at first to write 'house'; but it occurred to me that I had no way of knowing whether you owned your home or rented it or had a mortgage on it or whatever, but thought it reasonable to assume you owned your clothing: I assure you I should have made the same point re a man's shirt had it been a similar post from a man that I was answering. {I get some of mine from Oxfam, btw; many are from Tesco, & I have a few James Meades for special occasions.}

The Ottomans had been the rulers there for 500 years. The Arabs had lived in their villages there purely at Turkish will & pleasure; whatever your Greek guide's opinion of them ~~ there is a long & ongoing tradition in Greece of resentment of the years of Turkish rule, in fighting against which Lord Byron was killed in 1824. The Palestinian indigens were not expelled by the Israelis, but told to move out by the Muslim 1948 invaders ~~please scroll up to my post of 12.30 AM where this very point is addressed.

I agree with you about the disgraceful destruction of Arab property, especially olive groves & homes where bombers have been suspected of hiding, of more recent years; and have no defence of the present Israeli government's treatment of its Arab minority. It is this which has caused me to disown any sort of support for the regime as it now exists. But this is a separate question from that as to what happened in 1948. You seem to me to have confused these two discourses ~~ the departure of many Arabs in 1948 at the instruction of the invading neighbour countries to give them room to manoeuvre, as they thought; and the olive-grove uprooting, wall-bulding, shameful behaviour of more recent years, which has alienated so many of Israel's erstwhile supporters, including me.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 06:55 AM

Steve, it was not crass to make that point about Bedouin.
Jim and I discussed it last year.
This will take you to it if you wait.
thread.cfm?threadid=140399#3240142

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:31 AM

It was crass to suggest that the ethnically-cleansed Bedouin (what else would you care to call the process?) in the Negev were "lucky" because Bedouin were treated worse somewhere else. If a burglar breaks into your house and steals all your stuff but refrains from shitting on your carpet it hardly makes you "lucky" in any sense of the word I can think of. Underneath your remark, of course, is the suggestion that that the IDF are somehow just a little kind to the Bedouin who they evict from their ancestral lands and trash their villages.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:54 AM

They are more than a little kind.
They are granted far more rights and enjoy much better conditions.
Start a thread or restart the old one

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:59 AM

From Wiki.
"Ismail Khaldi is the first Bedouin deputy consul of the State of Israel and the highest ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service.[85] Khaldi is a strong advocate of Israel. While acknowledging that the state of Israeli Bedouin minority is not ideal, he said

I am a proud Israeli - along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deals honestly. By any yardstick you choose -- educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation -- Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East"

I also read that, every year, between 5 and 10% of all Bedouin males reaching the required age VOLUNTEER for the army of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:59 AM

""Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East"

I also read that, every year, between 5 and 10% of all Bedouin males reaching the required age VOLUNTEER for the army of Israel.""

So Israel is the least worst oppressor of minorities.

Well HUZZAH! and BULLY FOR THEM!

I might be impressed if that weren't as bad an indictment as calling them the worst.

Oppression is totally unacceptable per se, and presenting it as a sliding scale won't alter that!

Weasel words!

As for the volunteers, if cannon fodder is the only way to eat regularly, I suppose it's a case of needs must.

I'm just surprised that Israel trains men who might later be using that training against them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:12 AM

MtheGM, thanks for that.

I feel betrayed in a way. I thought the founding of Israel was great, that kibbutzes (sp plural?) were a wonderful idea, that making the desert bloom was brilliant etc etc.

And then all the rest of it, as you agree.

I cannot see what good end can be brought to what is going on. Everyone seems to be blind to the condition of others. No, correction, the people in power on both sides - I know that there are many Israelis who wish things were different. And the settlers, wherever they have come from, seem to have had an empathy bypass. Jewish survivors of the Shoah don't seem, when they speak out, to support the expansion.

The state of the area seems to me to be the greatest argument against the existence of the God all the participants claim to base their beliefs on. It's a bloody mess, and the peace has to start where we are, and not back in 1947. When the founders of the nation were behaving rather like terrorists themselves. Bombing the King David Hotel wasn't exactly acquiring property through normal conveyancing. (I didn't know that when I was growing up.)

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:31 AM

Wrong, Robert.

PLease check- it was Turkey, as the successor power to the Ottoman Empire that signed the treaty. IF you do not acknowledge it's validity, you must also deny the validity of Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:35 AM

Indeed, Penny. 'Betrayed' is the very word. I am glad we have found some common ground and the disagreement between us on the matter is not as great as first appeared.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:04 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 20 Nov 12 - 01:58 PM

""Yet NO ONE has a complaint about Israeli civilians being attacked, or Gazans being killed by Palestinian rockets.


Looks to me like a bigoted effort to criticize Israel, and Israel alone.""

My response:- "Either you haven't bothered to read the whole of this thread or you are a bloody liar.

Which is it Bearded Bruce? Too lazy to bother, or just plain dishonest?

Don T."

Since you are so keen on repeatedly demanding answers to your posts, how about you answering THIS one?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:15 AM

DonT,

""Either you haven't bothered to read the whole of this thread or you are a bloody liar.

Which is it Bearded Bruce? Too lazy to bother, or just plain dishonest?


I HAVE read the entire thread.

YOU are too lazy to bother answering my questions, AND YOU are entirely dishonest.




Why 1967 borders, instead of the last borders that the Arabs agreed to (~1924)?

Why should Palestinians who left in 1948 get what the greater number of Jews driven out the did not get?


Why should Israelis be held to a standard you refuse to hold Palestinians to?





You keep showing your bigotry, then attack ME instead of either defending YOUR statements or attacking the facts I present- THIS MAKES YOU BIGOTED SCUM, Like GregF and his "black and Democratic" means "Dumb Ni**er"

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:18 AM

There is a very good book by James Barr called "Line in the Sand" which explains the struggle which formed the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:20 AM

DonT's FIRST POST:



From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:05 AM

We would probably send a gunboat and six marines over there to kick the shit out of 'em.

But then we don't have a forty year record of stealing their land and blockading their supplies, effectively besieging and later bombing the hell out of them, DO WE?

Don T.

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Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:12 AM

Nice try Don but no banana. Go spread your hatred on the other thread.

****************************************************************************


Note both the comment and the bigotry DonT has expressed from the start of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:20 AM

I'm just surprised that Israel trains men who might later be using that training against them.
That is probably why Egypt prohibits them from joining its army.
Israel does not have that problem however.
Funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:25 AM

"Why should Palestinians who left in 1948 get what the greater number of Jews driven out the did not get?"

I'm genuinely confused about this statement. Were these Jews that you speak of driven out of Palestine alongside Arab Palestinians. If so then were they not also Palestinians - simply Jewish rather than Arab Palestinians?

From what I understand of the region, indigenous Jews and Arabs lived side by side as friends and neighbours prior to the religious partitioning of the region by the UN and the gifting of it to (primarily European and American) Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:27 AM

DonT,



I just hate and despise the "Palestinians are in the right, can do no wrong and must not be criticised for any action, however disproportionate" blether we get whenever this subject comes up, from the hard wired little Hamas apologist cadre.




BTW, any comments on the 5-10% of the ANTI-PERSONNEL rockets ( aimed at CIVILIANS) that Hamas launches and which fall onto GAZA? I have to presume ( from the silence until now) that THOSE dead Palestinians are not worth talking about...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:38 AM

Juicy Brucie (et al)

Turkey had no legitimate right to confer power over what is now Israel, and Gaza. Only governments or rulers from those regions could have done that. The UK, the League of Nations or UN had no legitimate right to grant land occupied by Palestinians for a Jewish state.

Don's original statement is also right. He correctly states what Israel has done to Gaza.

You are largely right CS - although the friendship bit was probably scarce!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:46 AM

Guest CS,

The history of Palestine is somewhat convoluted- and many here do not bother looking at the facts before making judgements.

There was a Zionist resettlement of "the Holy Land " starting in the 19th Century, as anti-semitism increased in Europe. At the END of WW I, the victorious Allies restructured the lands of the Ottoman Empire, with France getting the Syrian and Lebanese parts, and England getting Mandate Power over the remainder of the Mid-East. The treaties ENDING the war were signed by the new Turkish government, as the successor power to the Ottoman Empire.
The Mandate Palestine territory was formed with the express purpose of being "the Jewish Homeland" by these treaties.

Many Jews settled in Mandate Palestine, buying land from the owners of record ( Mostly absentee Turkish landlords) In about 1924, the Mandate Power, Great Britain, tired of the fighting going on between the Jews and Moslems, declared that 77% of the Mandate Plestine territory would be reserved exclusively for Moslims, and no Jew could own property there or live within that portion. The remaining 33% was to be the Jewish Homeland of the Mandtae's original intent ( Areas determined by proportional populations. Unfortunately, there were NO restrictions on Moslims owning or living in the "Jewish Homeland", and many stayed there for the higher standard of living.
In 1948, when the UN further divided it , the new state of Israel agreed to this set of borders, while the Arab League attacked the new state of Israel, telling all Moslims in the area to flee and the would be given the land after the AL had destroyed the Jews. Some Arab Moslims did flee, about 640,000, while a large number stayed in the areas under Israeli control.
Jerusalem and the West bank were under Jordanian control fro 1948 until 1967- During which time there was no effort made to settle the Palestinian refugees. The remaining Jewish populations of the Arab League countries were driven out ( about 820,000) and had their property confiscated.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:49 AM

Then you had best get back to the trenches and wait for the chlorine gas, since you repudiate the treaty ending WW 1.

ANd since the nations of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, et al are illegitimate ( according to you) you had best let them know they need to vacate immediately

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:49 AM

But Richard, what about the land occupied by Jews, who by 1948 were as large a demographic in the region as the Arabs as a result of accepted and paid for immigration since the C19, which was not resisted, but led to the situation described by CS to which you have expressed agreement? They too had to be accommodated in any settlement; and, I ask you again, if the UN at that date were not the competent authority to put forward a settlement, who were?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:50 AM

Richard, I've just tried to find it on YouTube with no success unfortunately, but there's a video out there - originally posted by a traditional Jewish organisation opposed to the occupation by European settlers - where a very aged Jewish man remembers how things were prior to the partition. He recalls how prior to the UN carving up the land, Jewish and Muslim Semites lived together in peace, how they all lived side by side with no religious animosity, and how Jewish and Muslim neighbours would care for one another's children.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:52 AM

Thanks M

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM

CORRECTION:

"The remaining 33% was to be the Jewish Homeland of the Mandtae's original intent ("


Should be "The remaining 23% was to be the Jewish Homeland of the Mandtae's original intent ("

Soryy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:02 PM

The British Mandate for Palestine, or simply the Mandate for Palestine, was a legal commission for the administration of the territory that had formerly constituted the Ottoman Sanjaks of Nablus, Acre, the Southern portion of the Beirut Vilayet, and the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, prior to the Armistice of Mudros. The draft of the Mandate was formally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922, amended via the 16 September 1922 Transjordan memorandum[1][2] and which came into effect on 29 September 1923[1] following the ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne.[3][4] The mandate ended at midnight on 14 May 1948.
The document was based on the principles contained in Article 22 of the draft Covenant of the League of Nations and the San Remo Resolution of 25 April 1920 by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War.[1] The mandate formalised British rule in the southern part of Ottoman Syria from 1923–1948.
The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."[5] The mandate document formalised the division of the British protectorates - Palestine, to include a national home for the Jewish people, under direct British rule, and Transjordan, an Emirate governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the Hashemite family.[1]

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:06 PM

The Treaty of Sèvres (10 August 1920) was the peace treaty between the Ottoman Empire and Allies at the end of World War I. The Treaty of Versailles was signed with Germany before this treaty to annul the German concessions including the economic rights and enterprises. Also, France, Great Britain and Italy signed a secret "Tripartite Agreement" at the same date.[1] The Tripartite Agreement confirmed Britain's oil and commercial concessions and turned the former German enterprises in the Ottoman Empire over to a Tripartite corporation. The open negotiations covered a period of more than fifteen months, beginning at the Paris Peace Conference. The negotiations continued at the Conference of London, and took definite shape only after the premiers′ meeting at the San Remo conference in April 1920. France, Italy, and Great Britain, however, had secretly begun the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire as early as 1915. The delay occurred because the powers could not come to an agreement which, in turn, hinged on the outcome of the Turkish national movement. The Treaty of Sèvres was annulled in the course of the Turkish War of Independence and the parties signed and ratified the superseding Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
The representatives signed the treaty in an exhibition room at the famous porcelain factory[2] in Sèvres, France.[3]
The treaty had four signatories for the Ottoman Empire: Rıza Tevfik, the grand vizier Damat Ferid Pasha, ambassador Hadi Pasha and the minister of education Reşid Halis who were endorsed by Sultan Mehmed VI.
Of the Principal Allied powers it excluded the United States. Russia was also excluded because it had negotiated the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk with the Ottoman Empire in 1918. In that treaty, at the insistence of the Grand Vizier Talat Pasha, the Ottoman Empire regained the lands Russia had captured in the Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878), specifically Ardahan, Kars, and Batumi. Sir George Dixon Grahame signed for Great Britain, Alexandre Millerand for France and Count Lelio Bonin Longare for Italy.
Among the other Allied powers, Greece did not accept the borders as drawn and never ratified it.[4] Avetis Aharonian, the President of the Delegation of the Democratic Republic of Armenia, which also signed the Treaty of Batum on 4 June 1918, was a signatory of this treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 12:10 PM

The League Mandate system was tailored to match the colonialist ambitions of the British and French in fact, while paying lip service to the American wishful thinking about self-determination. In accordance with the principles of the Balfour Declaration and Article 22 of the League Convenant, the League of Nations drew up the Mandate for Palestine. The document underwent several transformations. Arab pressure and riots in Palestine had brought about the Churchill White Paper of 1922, which again reiterated the right of the Jews to a Homeland in Palestine. At this time, Britain detached all of the area east of the Jordan river from Palestine and gave it to the Hashemi family as an independent Arab state. Many historians believe that this was a sop to the Hashemites, who had lost Syria to the French and Saudi Arabia to ibn Saud. As noted above, others believe that Transjordan was never a part of Palestine. Maps drawn by the Zionists and presented for consideration during deliberations regarding the mandate included a part of the territory that was allocated to Transjordan. Article 25 states:

ART. 25. In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions, and to make such provision for the administration of the territories as he may consider suitable to those conditions, provided that no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provisions of Articles 15, 16 and 18.

Therefore, it is not possible to claim that the Mandate did not include those territories, but they had a special status. The article provides that " no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provisions of Articles 15, 16 and 18." The establishment of Transjordan ultimately violated the provisions of Article 15, since Jews were not allowed to buy land or live there, and subsequent British restrictions on immigration of Jews and of Arabs also violated provisions of Article 15, That article states:

ART. 15. The Mandatory shall see that complete freedom of conscience and the free exercise of all forms of worship, subject only to the maintenance of public order and morals, are ensured to all. No discrimination of any kind shall be made between the inhabitants of Palestine on the ground of race, religion or language. No person shall be excluded from Palestine on the sole ground of his religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:15 PM

""Why 1967 borders, instead of the last borders that the Arabs agreed to (~1924)?

Why should Palestinians who left in 1948 get what the greater number of Jews driven out the did not get?


Why should Israelis be held to a standard you refuse to hold Palestinians to?""

Your claim I said any one of those things is a bloody lie. If not, you prove it by reproducing any such comment under my name.

You don't even have a clue who said what, so how much store can be set by anything you post?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:24 PM

Posted by Bearded Bruce.

""But then we don't have a forty year record of stealing their land and blockading their supplies, effectively besieging and later bombing the hell out of them, DO WE?

Don T.

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Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 18 Nov 12 - 06:12 AM

Nice try Don but no banana. Go spread your hatred on the other thread.

****************************************************************************


Note both the comment and the bigotry DonT has expressed from the start of the thread.""

The "gunboat and six marines" was quite obviously a tongue in cheek reference to the popular idea of 19th C British Diplomacy, and in any case referred to a hypothethetical French action.

Irrelevant to BB's point.

As for the rest, nice try Bruce but TRUTH is by definition not bigotry.

Your lies, however,................

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:31 PM

""He recalls how prior to the UN carving up the land, Jewish and Muslim Semites lived together in peace, how they all lived side by side with no religious animosity, and how Jewish and Muslim neighbours would care for one another's children.""

And that, C.S. is pretty much a description of how things were between Arab and Jew two thousand years ago, in spite of being under Roman rule.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:35 PM

I've heard a theory that Israel set off this latest round of hostilities to test out "Steel Dome", a new anti-missile system and also a warm up for going war with Iran...

Not sure those theories are wrong...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:40 PM

Yeah, there's that, Bobert. And it also might have had something to do with 1400 rockets fired into Israel during 2012, and the latest 20 having been fired into Israel since the truce. Israel hasn't broken the truce. Hamas already has.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:48 PM

If ya' take out the missiles fired over this latest shoot out, brucie, I don't think a single one has fallen in an occupied area or killed one Israeli civilian or soldier...

I mean, we've had this discussion before... I want sane policies that are peaceful and don't kill or hurt people...

I do not believe that the policies of Netanyahu are sane... Neither do one shit load of Israelis so what I am saying ain't like a foreign language...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:54 PM

Right. If Hamas breaks the truce or fires the rockets, well, so what. That is what you're saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 07:58 PM

If only this was about those bloody rockets. That would simplify things hugely. Unfortunately, there's the siege, the blockade, the theft of land for settlements, the bulldozing of thousands of homes, the helicopter gunships, the slaughter of kids near the border, the slaughter of 1300 civilians in two weeks as opposed to thirteen Israelis in ten years, the apartheid wall, the dividing of families, the destruction of farms, the white phosphorus, the assassinations, the road blocks, the discrimination, the imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians without charge or trial... but sod all that, eh. Jeez, a few rockets trump all that lot, yeah?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:10 PM

That's not what I am saying at all, brucie... What I am saying is that the militaristic/colonial policies of Netanyalu are not making anyone safer... They are exacerbating the situation... And I'm not the only one saying this... Lots of Israelis are, too... But we don't hear about those folks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:18 PM

Those who supply the weapons to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 08:34 PM

And who supplies weapons (or, at least, the money for weapons) to Israel? That's a pretty futile argument, Bruce. Yeah, we don't don't like Iran or Syria much. But the US?? Vietnam...Cambodia...Chile...Nicaragua...Iraq...and let's talk about propping up evil right-wing military dictators: Pinochet, Salazar, Saddam in the 80s, Mubarak... The idea of doing your dirty deeds by proxy at a distance is far from being the monopoly of inconvenient Islamic regimes, unfortunately.

I do take your point but you can't make that point very well without putting the other side. We all hate Hezbollah, but Hezbollah control a country that has its whole southern region strewn with US-manufactured and US-supplied cluster bomblets that are blowing kids' legs off to this very day. I mean, cast out the plank, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:29 PM

This is an amazing depressing thread.

So now there is a fragile truce, brokered by the Arab Spring Egyptians. So shall we wish them well or shall we hope they will all blow themselves to hell?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:34 PM

That was a depressing post, Charley...

I'd like to think that the Islam Brotherhood will look at this as an opportunity to become a moderate voice, i.e. pragmatists... With the Egyptian military sitting in the background thinking it has the ultimate veto authority this was a major step forward from the bad old days...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 09:48 PM

For those of you who keep saying how many people and groups groups in Israel want 'peace at any cost', please be informed that there are presently "People protesting in Sderot, Kiryat Malachi and other areas against the governments ceasefire agreement."

In the vernacular, tell it to the marines.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 10:04 PM

No one is saying that Israelis are out actively protesting for peace, brucie... What you will find is a solid number of Israelis who have opposed Netanyahu's policies toward the Palestinians... Those numbers go up and down but there is always this minority who believe that Israel is making a mistake by not pushing a "2 state" solution...

I ain't making this shit up... Google it and you will find that I am in agreement with the Israelis of peace... They represent a lot of Israelis, brucie...

Square business...

Shalom...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Nov 12 - 11:12 PM

An interesting read ... for those that may be interested

The 'third intifada' is apparently over, and Israel won

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:06 AM

If only this was about those bloody rockets. That would simplify things hugely. Unfortunately, there's the siege,
No siege.
the blockade,
only of military supplies, and they still get thousands of missiles in.
the theft of land for settlements,
IDF forced all settlers out at gunpoint.
the bulldozing of thousands of homes,
Not since last ceasefire so irrelevant.
the helicopter gunships,
They are ubiquitous. Most armies have them.
the slaughter of kids near the border,
Made up
the slaughter of 1300 civilians in two weeks as opposed to thirteen Israelis in ten years,
You know they are all civilians?
Civilians have been killed because Hamas illegally site it positions among them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 02:30 AM

On the "arsehole" scale, where do you place Hamas throwing a bomb into a bus full of Jews, maiming a young girl, and all Gaza celebrating, and firing rockets into Israel after the ceasefire?

Just Jew killers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:23 AM

By the time of the treaties to which you refer, Juicy Brucie, there was no Ottoman Empire and it had lawful power over nothing. Look at the dates. Turkey at most had lawful power over Turkey. Saudi Arabia, for example, illustrates a local established regime being externally recognised. No such case can be made for Israel.

The "blockade" impedes (and I infer is intended to impede) legitimate trade by Gazans. It is ostensibly about arms but in fact about much more, including medical supplies.

The League of Nations or UN were as competent to propose a settlement as anyone else, but it needed consent from those affected, and it did not have that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:40 AM

It is ostensibly about arms but in fact about much more, including medical supplies
How do you justify this statement Richard?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:01 AM

Regardless of the fairness of it all, regardless of previous and current colonial and other interests, outside who who wrote what historic account and all the "huffing and puffing" (locally and on mudcat), the situation is what it is.

I'd wager that neither group is going anywhere else, and what ocurred will not be rolled back. The parties in question will either have to learn to "get along" or blow the shit out of each other... and maybe a few of their friends. Outside all the media clips, all sides know that, and cease fires just delay reality for another day, and future mudcat "dust up".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 06:48 AM

Bit confusing having two such similar threads going simultaneously as this & the Vilnai-Gaza one: much overlap of material.

Please see there my ongoing query as to how they get the weapons into Gaza but complain the Israelis are blockading them from other essential supplies. Some blockade to let all those rockets in, eh! And what is the role of Egypt, whose border runs along a fair bit of the Gaza Strip. Are they letting the Gazans bring weaponry in but not food? If so, why? If not, then what is going on, please?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:16 AM

Mthe GM, I suspect there are various views on the question you ask, here is one, from CNN:


""Israeli officials say the missiles launched by Hamas and Islamic Jihad into Israel's two largest cities, Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, are Iran's rockets, which Israelis believe were shipped by Iran in separate pieces like a doomsday Ikea package. They were sent by sea to Sudan and then moved through Egypt and into tunnels to Gaza, where they were assembled for firing at Israel with the help of Iranian operatives on the ground in Gaza. Iran and Sudan have denied that such a smuggling operation exists"".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 07:44 AM

Thanks, Ed. Seems good explanation, however much denied; they are certainly getting in somehow despite the iniquitous Israeli blockade which is reducing all those poor Gazans to walking skeletons [not - see Bobad's link on the other thread]. But I am still exercised why they can't get food & stuff in that way as well, if they are as starving as poor benighted old Jim keeps maundering on about (tho why anyone is still taking any notice of him, if they are, god knows).

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 08:47 AM

I could go all conspiratorial and say that the Israeli regime needs Hamas to be firing rockets at it. As I said, you're never better loved at home than when you can say to your citizenry that you're defending them against foreign savages, even though the regime, by dint of all its actions against Palestinians for decades, constantly puts its people in harm's way, the very opposite of what they're saying.

It's all crap, of course....I mean, heaven forfend! But it's one answer to your question, Michael...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM

No it isn't quite, Steve ~ tho thank you. It's a good answer to other possible questions, but not really SFAICS to the one as to why they don't bring food in by the Sinai tunnel if they can bring missiles in that way. Still nobody seems to have tackled that one.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:03 AM

I daresay Stevie and MGM would have disapproved of the tactics adopted by the UK government during WW2. While the population of Britain was forced to undergo strict food rationing ,their government was importing tons of military hardware from the USA.If Churchill had really cared about the English speaking people as much as he made out, he'd obviously have surrendered to the Germans,wouldn't he?

"An Economic Intelligence Service of the League of Nations publication from 1942 details the importance of rationing during wartime, stating, "the control of consumption is a necessary condition…[for] the effective mobilization of resources for war purposes."[1] Governments who effectively employed rationing programs domestically were better able to manage resources for their war efforts abroad."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:10 AM

Here's a nice read from yesterday's Grauniad. Biased, of course.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/20/palestinians-have-right-defend-themselves?INTCMP=SRCH

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 10:20 AM

I was in the UK thruout WW2, mayomick. Were you? Thanks for your post, but its relevance eludes me entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:16 AM

No, I wasn't born until 1952 , MGM . But, as you would be aware, they had very strict food rationing during WW2 in the UK .The German navy made it difficult to import food , but the UK was able to import munitions from the USA to continue the war effort . Most British people at the time thought that this was important for the survival of the UK . Did you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:22 AM

Of course I did But I honestly can't see the relevance of the comparison you are making about the WW2 situation re rationing & weapon imports, and the topic of this thread. Could you expound or clarify, please, mayomick?

~M

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:49 PM

MGM, I was referring to your own comments mocking the "walking skeletons" in Gaza :"they can get the weapons into Gaza but complain the Israelis are blockading them from other essential supplies" ……….. "they don't bring food in by the Sinai tunnel if they can bring missiles in that way".

During WW2 William Joyce announced on German radio that food rationing was so bad in Yorkshire that people there had resorted to eating grass.(they were actually eating dock leaves , which the stoic yorkies at the time called a Yorkshire speciality )


Did you ever hear Lord Haw Haw saying anything like this : "They can get weapons over from the other side of the Atlantic ,so why can't they bring in enough food "?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 12:53 PM

MtheGM
If tunnels are involved, I suspect some land transport (and possibly sea transport), and deception, would be involved - to avoid detection and action by the Israeli's. If it were so, I suspect that additional material transported this route may add to the possibility of detection.

Additionally, one can only speculate on the length and size (possibly limited in nature) of the structures. Significant volumes of food may be more complex to transport through them?

But, unlike others who post as if they know local conditions, I don't have a direct route to Hamas to offer anything else on this - other than what I read from possible biased, or unreliable sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:14 PM

""How do you justify this statement Richard?""

If Richard needs to justify every utterance, how come you don't feel it necessary to justify the following from you

""the slaughter of kids near the border,
Made up
the slaughter of 1300 civilians in two weeks as opposed to thirteen Israelis in ten years,
You know they are all civilians?
Civilians have been killed because Hamas illegally site it positions among them.""

You know they not all or mostly, or even half, civilians?

NO!

You know that the reports of children killed near the border are made up?

NO!

You jump on every criticism of Israeli actions with a bucket of whitewash and a religious fervour.

You are spouting propaganda fed to you by the Israeli press and Media, without thought or question.

We know that Hamas have killed Israeli civilians and we deplore it.

You know that Israel has killed Palestinian civilians and you applaud it as a plucky and honourable self defence mounted by Goliath against David.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:22 PM

Good work, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 01:34 PM

delightful to have script from
wakabouts verse, i have missed you.WALKABOUTSVERSE 76 OF 230

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing,
From the Second World War,
It's that most peoples learnt
To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
Steps only bigots rue.

But, for some indigenes
(Outnumbered much-too-much),
It has all come too late
For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
Is to respect land rights.

(C) David Franks 2003

    02:29
       Like

Comments
Post a comment...

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Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:24 PM

Don, not even Hamas claims they are all civilian deaths as claimed by Steve, so yes I DO know that they are not.
Steve referred to "the slaughter of kids near the border"
That IS made up.
I do not spout any-one's propaganda Don.
I did put Israel's side of the story to balance the Jihadists' propaganda being spouted by you lot.
Why do you never want to be told Israel's side of the story Don?
Make your head hurt?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:31 PM

The mystery of the food imports is no mystery.
They do not bring it in through the tunnels because they can bring in as much as they like through the border with Israel, above ground, on big trucks, so why ever would they want to.
Likewise medical supplies.

Blaming everything on Israel is just propaganda and shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:32 PM

We get "Israel's side of the [bloody] story" thrust down our throats all the time in case you haven't noticed, Keith. In fact, the yanks, who bankroll Israel's military, get nothing but. And we are not spouting jihadist propaganda any more than you are spouting ultra-Zionist propaganda. We are not mouthpieces for anyone else, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:37 PM

In my opinion both sides are at fault.
Jewish people have been persecuted for centuries,hence their desire for a safe homeland, and since their homeland has been formed, they have been attacked
PRIOR TO 1967 from the Golan heights, Hence the israeli desire to keep the G H in their control, if the Syrians had not attacked them PRIOR TO 1967, perhaps the whole situation would be different

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 03:55 PM

"since their homeland has been formed"
Nice piece of passive construction there from GSS. It's a pity the Israelis weren't as passively constructive when forming their state.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 04:51 PM

mayomick, the israeli did not form their state on their own, stop being obtuse
On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favor of a Partition Plan that created the State of Israel. The British reliquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews soon after. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War, established the state of Israel as an independent state, with the rest of the British Mandate of Palestine split into areas controlled by Egypt and Transjordan.

In 1949, Israel signed separate cease-fire agreements with Egypt on February 24, Lebanon on March 23, Transjordan on April 3, and Syria on July 20. Israel was able to draw its own borders, occupying 70% of Mandatory Palestine, fifty percent more than the UN partition proposal allotted them. These borders have been known afterwards as the "Green Line". The Gaza Strip and West Bank were occupied by Egypt and Transjordan respectively.

While the establishment of the state of Israel was seen by Christian Zionists as a sign that God was fulfilling his promises to Abraham and Jacob, the early political leaders of Israel were primarily secular. David Ben Gurion, Israel's Prime Minister from the founding of Israel until 1963, represented the secular Ideals of the early Zionists. For practical reasons, Ben Gurion accepted the boundaries that excluded the ancient Jewish lands of Samaria and Judea in the West Bank. The early Israeli leaders also agreed to a divided Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:43 PM

Not completely because many of the arseholes are American so-called leaders.

The U.S. taxpayer is financing the Israeli partisan war.

The U.S. muscled the U.N. in its support of Israel.

I think Ben Gurion would be horrified at what has happened to Zionism. He would think that Netanyahu is a complete arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:47 PM

Strirnsinger ~~ I agree about that at least [Ben Gurion's probable view of Netanyahu]. As I never tire of saying, that is my present view. But no reason to falsify the past history, as the likes of Carrol spend their time doing.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 05:57 PM

I didn't say that the zionists acted alone GSS . They had a lot of support internationally when they robbed the Palestinians'land. It didn't make it right though . "A land without people for a people without land" is how they described it at the time - as if the Palestinians weren't people .

UN security resolutions didn't "form" Israel any more than ancient maps or biblical claims did , or desires for a homeland . It was through events like the Deir Yassin massacre that "their homeland has been formed".Israel was creaed and has been sustained throughout its history through war . The events in Gaza are a continuation of that

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 12 - 11:25 PM

Deir Yassin was indeed a shameful episode, but one which occurred in a war that was none of the Israelis' seeking in which they were fighting for survival of their new State against invasions by 7 different hostile armies. Wars give rise to shameful episodes, alas:
I shudder when I think of what British forces did in pre-independence Malaya, eg; but it was the sort of thing that sort of situation gives rise to. I have written much above, & on the Vilmai thread, about the validity of the UN Resolution; nobody at the time denied their right to enact the Partition; just some countries, many of them UN members, explicitly tried unsuccessfully to prevent the putting of it into effect by force of arms without ever denying the organisation the right to have passed the Resolution. See what I said in my last post about 'falsifying history'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 12:00 AM

"Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?"

No.

Do you still beat your wife?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:02 AM

Stringsinger: "Not completely because many of the arseholes are American so-called leaders.
The U.S. taxpayer is financing the Israeli partisan war."

YOU ARE CORRECT!!....

Let's look at this part a little closer, too...:

"The U.S. taxpayer is financing the Israeli partisan war."
                                    Libyan revolt..
                                    Shaw of Iran
                                    Vietnam
                                    Guatemala
                                    El Salvador
                                    Korea
                                    Iran-Iraq war
                                    Iraq
                                    Afghanistan
                                    Bosnia
                                    Croatia
                                    Falkland Islands
                                    Columbia drug Cartels
                                    Mexican drug cartels
                                    Panama (Noriega)
                                    Laos,Cambodia
                                    Golden Triangle
                                    PLO
                                    Hamas
                                    Palestine
                                    Yemen
                                    Saudi Arabia
                                    Iran-Contra
                                    Grenada
                                    Bay of Pigs Invasion
                                    Egypt
                                    Muslim Brotherhood
                                    Fast and Furious
                                    Jeff Immelt taking $500B to China
                                    Halliburton's Gulf war contractors
                                    Obamacare

....and the taxpayer didn't have shit say in it!

..at least the Israeli leaders are holding a cease-fire agreement....let's see who breaks it first...and fuck the excuses!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 03:31 AM

Just two examples of blockade affecting things other than arms:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/20/world/meast/gaza-ship/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Mavi_Marmara

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 04:28 AM

Wrong Richard.
Obviously shipping has to be searched for weapons, but the cargo was all delivered.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 07:10 AM

Shaw of Iran

Huh? Never been near the place.
                                    
....and the taxpayer didn't have shit say in it!

Taxpayers get to elect or chuck out governments that make the decisions. If you know of a better way, let's hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:14 AM

Yup, this was an expensive cease fire for the US taxpayers... $1.6B to Eqypt and $55M for more "Steel Dome" missiles for Israel to replenish the ones they shot up... And those are just the costs that have been made public...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:03 AM

But the Mavi was taken at gunpoint in international waters. Following that other ships (mostly) won't go. It's called "a chilling effect" amongst those who think.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:25 AM

Yes because it was attempting to go into Gaza unchecked.
Vessels delivering to Gaza unload at an Israeli port and Israel delivers the cargo.
That is how it has been done for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:48 AM

The "chilling effect" comes from those who hide weapons in the food supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 10:53 AM

>>>"Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?"

More likely just people caught between tough choices. We know that if France started firing rockets--procured from a third party--into England, the British parliament would accept the attacks with stoicism and fortitude. Would that the Israelis exemplified the English character. <<<

I think that if The UK had been blockading France for many years the French might have reason to lob a missile or two.

I think that if British Bobbies and SAS waltzed into Paris and arrested a 28 elected officials and other leaders, it would at least be reported in our media.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 01:43 PM

GUEST,999: "The "chilling effect" comes from those who hide weapons in the food supply."

And firing from hospitals, schools, churches, mosques, using women and children for human shields etc etc.....and we send them money, while condemning their activities!

No wonder everybody is confused!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:17 PM

We send Israel three billion a year for their weapons so they can have the fourth biggest army in the world, and they bulldoze homes, terrorise civilians with helicopter gunships, make aggressive incursions at will into territory they're supposed to have withdrawn from, use illegal white phosphorus, build a massive apartheid wall, divide families, make it next to impossible for Palestinians to travel, steal their best land, destroy their infrastructure and then ban building materials from entering Gaza. Apart from that, they're the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 02:32 PM

into territory they're supposed to have withdrawn from~~~
,..,.,
They withdrew from if, Steve [in the process disrupting the lives and ambitions of a considerable demographic of its own population, legitimately, at the time, settled there] for the express purpose of enabling the inhabitants to establish a sort of Singapore-like enclave in which to be self-governing; whereupon said inhabitants proceeded to demonstrate their bona-fides and good intentions by electing by a large majority a Hamas administration, standing on an explicit programme of armed aggression against those Israeli neighbours who had thus voluntarily ceded the territory to them.

So that's all right then, is it?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 05:09 PM

White phosphorous smoke is not illegal.
Every army in the world uses it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:01 PM

""Wrong Richard.
Obviously shipping has to be searched for weapons, but the cargo was all delivered. ""

EVENTUALLY!

And much of it in unusable condition due to the delay.

You keep saying that there is NO Israeli restriction of imports into Gaza, so tell us what is the list of banned imports (such as cement and butter) about then?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:06 PM

And today, according to the BBC News, they shot dead a Palestinian man inside Gaza, who simply approached the Gaza side of the fence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:30 PM

So...what does the U.N. Security Council have to say about this??
That should be VERY interesting because besides being in the U.N Security Council, what do these FIVE countries have in common?
The United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia and China?

Come on guys, give it a shot!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:36 PM

A Palestinian man is dead after being shot by Israeli forces close to the Gaza border.

The BBC reports he was the first to be killed since a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel began on Wednesday night.

The Israeli Defense Force said a group of about 300 people had approached a fence in a no-go area east of Khan Younis on Friday and some attempted to break through.

Warning shots were fired at the group and more shots were fired when they did not respond.

Hamas said the shooting was an violation of the ceasefire.

The BBC shootings near the border happen fairly often

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:48 PM

"White phosphorous smoke is not illegal.
Every army in the world uses it."

Does every army drop it on civilians? On refugee camps? On schools?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 06:52 PM

Does every army hide it's fighters, weapons and ordinance among civilians, in refugee camps and schools?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 08:23 PM

into territory they're supposed to have withdrawn from~~~
,..,.,
They withdrew from if, Steve [in the process disrupting the lives and ambitions of a considerable demographic of its own population, legitimately, at the time, settled there] for the express purpose of enabling the inhabitants to establish a sort of Singapore-like enclave in which to be self-governing; whereupon said inhabitants proceeded to demonstrate their bona-fides and good intentions by electing by a large majority a Hamas administration, standing on an explicit programme of armed aggression against those Israeli neighbours who had thus voluntarily ceded the territory to them.

So that's all right then, is it?

~M~

Well, Michael, I could almost rest my case by saying that the electorate in the US were stupid enough to elect Dubya twice and that the electorate here elected Thatcher three times. The electorate in Gaza are like the electorate everywhere else. They are ignorant about the detail of almost every policy and intents of the parties seeking their votes. If you had to pass a rudimentary exam in knowing the issues in just about any democracy on the planet, about 95% would fail and wouldn't be allowed to vote. So let's see what you're suggesting here. The people in Gaza who elected Hamas, unlike every other electorate on the planet, are incredibly prescient. They have intimate knowledge of all Hamas's policies and intentions, unlike any other electorate on earth. Therefore, when Hamas are elected, we can blame the electorate. That is what you are saying. Do you know something, Michael? That is exactly the Israeli position, exactly their justification for the collective punishment visited by Israel on all the people in Gaza. That means the kids who never voted and all those people who either didn't vote as well as those who voted against Hamas. And all those who did vote for Hamas because they were being offered resistance against what most reasonable people in the west regard as a horrid, repressive foe. Well done, Michael. For all the "disappointment" you've expressed about Israel's actions, you are actually giving them 100% support, fully aligning yourself with their treatment of Gaza. At least we now know where you stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 08:50 PM

White phosphorous smoke is not illegal.
Every army in the world uses it.

Hamas haven't used it. But of course Hamas are not really an army, are they. They are too small to be an army and they don't have very good weapons. A few rockets, really. So, instead of calling them an army, let's call them terrorists. Yeah, that's good. They have rockets but are too small to be an army, therefore they must be terrorists. But at least they're terrorists who don't use white phosphorus.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 09:51 PM

So...what does the U.N. Security Council have to say about this??
That should be VERY interesting because besides being in the U.N Security Council, what do these FIVE countries have in common?
The United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia and China?

Come on guys, give it a shot!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 11:16 PM

'Michael. For all the "disappointment" you've expressed about Israel's actions, you are actually giving them 100% support, fully aligning yourself with their treatment of Gaza.'
.,,.,.
And you in response Steve are fully aligning yourself with the firing of missiles at the civilian populations of TelAviv & Jerusalem & all points between. I see no incompatibility between my overall disappointment with the way the hopes we all had in the emergent state in 1948 have been grossly perverted, and the fact that they seem to me, solely in this specific Gazan instance, to have mainly the right of it. Intelligence, Steve, surely resides in SFAP judging each specific case on its merits; the opposite in deciding in advance that, eg in this instance, the Gazans must be right & the Isrls wrong becoz they are the ones who uprooted olive trees & built fences.

Still no real response to my question as to why all these essential medical & nutritional supplies can't get in by same route as the missiles, apart from good old predictable J Carroll's 'guns not butter' one. Any other suggestions of a reply to this imo simple & obvious question.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 12 - 11:31 PM

OK, you guys who think the U.N. is the cat's ass....

So...what does the U.N. Security Council have to say about this??
That should be VERY interesting because besides being in the U.N Security Council, what do these FIVE countries have in common?
The United States, United Kingdom, France, Russia and China?
What is it??

Come on guys, give it a shot!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:29 AM

Terrorism is not to do with an organisations size. It is about indiscriminate attacks on civilians.
There are white phosphorus incendiaries and white phosphorous smoke munitions.
Israel used smoke to protect its soldiers in Gaza 4 years ago after giving warnings to stay indoors.
It has never used incendiaries.

I have explained this to you all before, but you need to keep telling these discredited lies to make any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:33 AM

You keep saying that there is NO Israeli restriction of imports into Gaza, so tell us what is the list of banned imports (such as cement and butter) about then?

Years out of date is what it is Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:17 AM

EVENTUALLY!

And much of it in unusable condition due to the delay.

You just made that up Don.
Why would an impartial bloke like you do that?

The Marmara cargo was delivered within days to the Gaza border.
Obviously the cargo from the other ships that complied with Israel got through quicker.
There were no perishables on board.
Hamas left it all uncollected at the border for two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:25 AM

Terrorism is not to do with an organisations size. It is about indiscriminate attacks on civilians.

Jeez, Keith, then Israel wins hands down on both counts.

And every time, every bloody time, you fire any sort of weapon into an urban area you are indiscriminately attacking civilians (naturally, the twisted language of warfare tries to make it not so: "surgical attacks" and "smart bombs", etc). Whether or not you claim that as your intent makes not one jot of difference to those slaughtered innocents (oops, sorry, Michael doesn't think Gaza contains any innocents, so that's OK then). Name me a war in which that has never happened. How about leaving hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets (US-supplied) scattered all over southern Lebanon, still blowing kids' feet off today. Is it terrorism, Keith? Over to you for a bit more revisionism...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:37 AM

And you in response Steve are fully aligning yourself with the firing of missiles at the civilian populations of TelAviv & Jerusalem & all points between. I see no incompatibility between my overall disappointment with the way the hopes we all had in the emergent state in 1948 have been grossly perverted, and the fact that they seem to me, solely in this specific Gazan instance, to have mainly the right of it. Intelligence, Steve, surely resides in SFAP judging each specific case on its merits; the opposite in deciding in advance that, eg in this instance, the Gazans must be right & the Isrls wrong becoz they are the ones who uprooted olive trees & built fences.

Sorry, Michael, but you were implying, quite strongly it seems to me, that the actions of Israel on Gaza's population on this occasion were justified on the grounds that the electorate voted for Hamas, so they had it coming. Know what, Michael? I remember all too well how all those eejits who, after 9-11, suggesting that the yanks had had it coming, were quite rightly shot down on forums everywhere. You seem to forget as you get all enmeshed in your lofty, principled stand that this is actually about flesh and blood. Putting the blame, as you did, for Hamas's actions on the ordinary people who voted for them just stinks.

And, as a matter of accuracy, I have never condoned the firing of rockets. I try to understand why it's done by those desperate people but I have never said that targeting civilians with rockets is justified. I don't think it and I haven't said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:24 AM

every time, every bloody time, you fire any sort of weapon into an urban area you are indiscriminately attacking civilians

No. Not if your enemy is illegally siting its positions there, and providing you give warnings, and provided you do all you can to minimises civilian casualties.

Israel gave warnings, and there was about one death for every thirteen Israeli strikes.
And, only about half of those were civilians.
And, even some of those were willing to be human shields or martyrs.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 07:28 AM

Cluster bombs were used in Lebanon, and some bomblets did not explode on impact. (but not hundreds of thousands)

The hazard was not recognised back then.
Israel has never used them since.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 08:30 AM

Let's keep some things in perspective..,.

Some argue that since Gaza is essentially Palestinian that that amounts to it being an independent state... Problem is that with Israel keeping it encircled militarily, Gaza is just one big prison camp...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 08:36 AM

"Israel keeping it encircled militarily"

They have a reason for doing so......maybe you can figure it out.

Here's a clue:

List of brigades attacks against Israel

    16 April 1993: A Hamas suicide car bomb kills two in Mehola Junction bombing.
    19 October 1994: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus in Tel Aviv, killing 22 and injuring 56. Hamas claims responsibility.[14]
    25 December 1994: A suicide bomber detonates at a bus stop in Jerusalem, wounding 12.[14]
    9 April 1995: Two suicide bombers detonate in Gaza, killing one American, seven IDF soldiers and injuring 50. Hamas and Islamic Jihad both claim responsibility.[15]
    21 August 1995: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus, killing one American, four IDF soldiers and injuring 100. Hamas claims responsibility.[15]
    21 March 1997: A Hamas suicide bomber detonated at a Tel Aviv sidewalk café, killing three women and wounding 46.[15]
    4 September 1997: Three suicide bombers detonate in Jerusalem, killing four and injuring up to 200. Hamas claims responsibility.[16]
    27 August 1998: A bomb in a garbage bin explodes in Tel Aviv during rush hour injuring 14. Hamas claims responsibility.[16]
    19 October 1998: Two grenades thrown into a crowd at the Be'er Sheva bus station during rush hour injuring 59. Hamas claims responsibility.[17]
    29 October 1998: A Hamas suicide car bomber attempts to ram a school bus head on near the Gush Katif Junction. An IDF jeep escorting the bus blocked the bomber who detonated the vehicle, killing the driver of the jeep and injuring two others. Six people in the bus received light injuries.[17]

Beginning of Second Intifada September, 2000.

    1 January 2001: A Hamas suicide car bomber detonates in the city of Netanya, injuring 59. One victim died seven days later.[18]
    14 February 2001: A Hamas suicide bomber plowed a bus into a crowd and detonated, killing 8 and injuring 21.[19]
    4 March 2001: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates in the city of Netanya, three killed and 68 injured.[18]
    28 March 2001: A Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up amidst a group of students waiting at a bus stop in Qalqilya in the West Bank. Two killed and four injured.[18]
    22 April 2001: A Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up Kfar Saba killing one and injuring 50.[18]
    18 May 2001: An Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up at the entrance of a shopping mall in the city of Netanya. Five people were killed with more than 100 injured.[18]
    1 June 2001: A suicide bomber linked to Hamas kills 21 and injures 76 in the Dolphinarium massacre in Tel Aviv.
    9 August 2001: A suicide bomber detonates in Jerusalem killing fifteen and wounding 130 in the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing. Hamas and Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine both claimed responsibility.
    4 September 2001: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates in West Jerusalem injuring 15.[18]
    26 November 2001: A suicide bomber detonates at the Erez Crossing injuring 2. Hamas claimed responsibility.[20]
    2 December 2001: A suicide bomber boarded an Israeli bus traveling from the Neveh Sha'anan district in Haifa, paying the driver with a large bill he then blew himself up killing 15 and injuring 40. Hamas claimed responsibility.[20]
    4 December 2001: Two suicide bombers detonated one after the other followed by a car bomb in a mall in West Jerusalem. 11 killed and more than 130 injured. Hamas claimed responsibility.[20]
    9 March 2002: 11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded in the crowded Moment cafe in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[21]
    31 March 2002: A suicide bomber kills 15 and injures over 40 in an Arab restaurant in Haifa in the Matza restaurant massacre. Hamas claimed responsibility.[22]
    10 April 2002: Six IDF soldiers and two civilians were killed and 22 injured in a suicide bombing on a bus near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[22]
    7 May 2002: 16 people were killed and 55 wounded in a suicide bombing in a crowded pool hall in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv. According to the Israeli government, Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[23]
    19 May 2002: Three people were killed and 59 injured when a suicide bomber disguised as a soldier, blew himself up in the market in Netanya. Both Hamas and the PFLP took responsibility for the attack.[23]
    18 June 2002: A suicide bomber detonates on a bus in Jerusalem in the Patt junction massacre. The attack kills 19 people and wounds over 74. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
    16 July 2002: Nine people were killed and 20 injured in a terrorist attack on a bus traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel. An explosive charge was detonated next to the bullet-resistant bus. The terrorists waited in ambush, reportedly wearing Israeli army uniforms, and opened fire on the bus. Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the DFLP, Hamas and the Islamic Jihad all claimed responsibility for the attack.[24]
    31 July 2002: Nine people, including five Americans, were killed and 85 wounded when a bomb detonated by a cell phone exploded in the Frank Sinatra student center cafeteria on the Hebrew University's Mt. Scopus campus. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack but expressed regret for the death of the Americans.[25]
    4 August 2002: Nine people were killed and some 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus at the Meron junction in the Galilee. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[26]
    19 September 2002: Six people were killed and about 70 wounded when a terrorist detonated a bomb in a bus opposite the Great Synagogue in Tel-Aviv. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    10 October 2002: One man was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board a bus across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    27 October 2002: Three soldiers were killed and about 20 people were wounded in a suicide bombing in Ariel. The victims were killed while trying to prevent the terrorist from detonating the bomb. The terrorist was identified as a member of Hamas.[citation needed]
    17 May 2003: A suicide bomber detonated himself next to a pregnant Israeli woman and her husband at a public square in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility.[citation needed]
    19 May 2003: A suicide bomber on a bicycle attacked an Israeli checkpoint on the Gaza Strip. Hamas claimed responsibility.[citation needed]
    11 June 2003: A Hamas Palestinian suicide bomber, dressed as an ultra-Orthodox Jew, detonated his explosives belt on a bus in downtown Jerusalem. Palestinian terrorists have attempted 11 suicide bombings and murdered 23 Israelis in the last 4 days, since Palestinians "accepted" the "roadmap for peace" and the end of violence.[citation needed]
    14 January 2004: A violent suicide bomber blew herself up at one of the entrances to Gaza's main Erex crossing terminal to Israel, killing three Israeli soldiers and a civilian and wounding twelve others. Hamas and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Fatah) jointly claimed responsibility. Hamas stated it used a woman suicide bomber for the first time in order to counter Israeli precautions.[citation needed]
    17 January 2004: The armed wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for an attack in which two gunmen infiltrated Kiryat Arba, near Hebron, and killed a settler and wounded two others. The armed attackers knocked on the door and opened fire inside when it was answered.[citation needed]
    29 January 2004: A suicide bomber blew up a bus near the prime minister's residence, killing ten bystanders and wounding at least fifty. Prime Minister Sharon was not home at the time of the bombing. The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. Hamas has also claimed responsibility for the bombing and denounced al-Aqsa. Hamas has also sent a picture of the suicide bomber to the media to verify their claim.[citation needed]
    14 March 2004: Ten Israeli civilians and two Palestinians suicide-bombers were killed when they blew themselves up at the southern port of Ashdod. One bomb went off at a citrus fruit packaging factory and the other at an office just outside the perimeter of the port. A cache of grenades was found later hidden in a bag with a false bottom. Hamas and the al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the blasts, stating they were in retaliation for recent members deaths in Jenin.[citation needed]
    28 June 2004: Two Israelis were killed and about fifteen others were injured when two home-made Qassam rockets landed on Sederot. Hamas has claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    29 June 2004: A Palestininan rocket attack near a kindergarten in Sederot killed a child and a man. More than ten people were injured. Hamas has claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    25 July 2004: children were injured when an anti-tank rocket was fired at a community center in Neve Dekalim. The rocket was fired from Khan Yunis and came as thousands of people were gathered at the center to protest against the Gaza disengagement plan. The children were playing in the yard outside of the center when the rocket struck. The Al-Qassam Brigades, a Hamas-linked militant group, claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]
    31 August 2004: Two buses near the Beersheba municipality building were blown up by a suicide bomber. The suicide bomber took advantage of the fact that the two buses were standing together. He blew up a bomb on one bus and then exploded a second bomb on the second bus. At least fifteen people were killed and around eighty-five injured. The military wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, saying that it as a response to the assassination of Yasin, a leading Hamas official.[citation needed]
    7 September 2004: A rocket was fired at the Sederot settlement. One person sustained slight injuries. The military wing of Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.[citation needed]

End of Second Intifada.

    27 February 2008: In February, 257 rockets and 228 mortars were fired from the Gaza Strip into the western Negev causing five injuries and on 27 February the death of a 47 year old student at Sapir College. Hamas has previously claimed responsibility for rocket barrages

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:36 AM

Cluster bombs were used in Lebanon, and some bomblets did not explode on impact. (but not hundreds of thousands)

The hazard was not recognised back then.
Israel has never used them since.

"The hazard was not recognised back then."



Bwahahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:20 AM

Here's an excellent comment from one Duncan McFarlane, on the Guardian website, in the comments under the latest article about Gaza/Israel by Jonathan Freedland (with whom I disagree on most points).

Palestinian terrorist groups targeting civilians is not justified, but as Israeli peace campaigner Gershon Baskin points out almost every ceasefire breakdown is the result of Israeli pre-emptive strikes, which they claim are based on intelligence of an impending attack on Israel - in the 2008/2009 Gaza war and the recent war the escalation was triggered by Israeli ground raids into Gaza, claimed to be to prevent tunnels (to capture soldiers in 2008, to set IEDs under Israeli border patrol routes in 2012).

This could all be ended by both sides agreeing to adopt the plan drawn up by Baskin and Palestinian Deputy Foreign Minister Ghazi Hamad under which, during ceasefires, Israel would share intelligence on Palestinian armed groups' plans to attack Israel and break the ceasefire with Egypt. Egypt would then tell Hamas, who would have 48 hours to stop the attack and avoid Israeli pre-emptive strikes.

As Efraim Halevy, the former head of Hamas, has said, Hamas are credible at maintaining and enforcing ceasefires - and Israel is so strong militarily compared to the Palestinians that it can afford to take a chance and see if the plan will work. The risks if it doesn't work are minor - the potential benefits to both sides massive.

The israeli government holds Hamas responsible for any attack from Gaza by any group, while simultaneously trying to destroy Hamas' ability to govern and police Gaza by targeting police, police stations and jails - and carries out pre-emptive attacks during ceasefires.

Maybe that is because so far every Israeli government has decided it wants to keep taking the majority of West Bank land and water more than it wants peace. Netanyahu's government has accelerated settlement, even East of Israel's barrier wall (these eastern settlements illegal not just under international law like all West Bank settlements, but Israeli law too).

Peace would require concessions and compromise. Keeping the focus on Gaza by refusing to negotiate with Hamas - or even with Abbas and Fatah on their behalf - despite Hamas winning the 2006 legislative elections, is a way of distracting from the accelerating israeli land grab in the West Bank.

(if you read the comment on the website, many of its passages are actually links)

Israel doesn't want peace. As long as they refuse to enter meaningful talks (not the sham talks that are routinely set up by the US/Israel axis), they can go on not only not making compromises but also taking more and more land. As long as Israel and the US insist that they won't talk to a "terrorist organisation" there can never be meaningful talks. Abbas is now useless. Talks with him are talks with the oily rag. So Israel won't talk, because they know that talks mean compromises on the table. They never have to make even the smallest compromise, because they know that whatever they do, no matter how outrageous, the money supply for weapons from the US will never dry up (nice work, AIPAC).

Here's Jonathan Freedland:   http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/23/gaza-wearying-conflict-end-time

Here's one of the lins from Duncan McFarlane's comment:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html?pagewanted=1

Do read the whole thing. It was penned by a reasonable and sane man who had engineered the release of Gilad Shalit last year and who was right in the thick of negotiations for a ceasefire before all this erupted. Dwell for a while on just how bloody wantonly, crassly stupid the Israeli leadership has been. Also, ask yourself, having read it, whether you still think Hamas are never capable of being pragmatic. As Freedland said (one of the points I do agree with him on), you don't get anywhere just talking to your friends. You have to talk to your enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:22 AM

links

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 10:43 AM

So why is the U.N. doing nothing much?..either in Israel or Syria??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:01 PM

The United Nations--an organization in which I once placed great hope and trust--has become the United Nothings. Each year it seems to become more so. imo

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:14 PM

The UN has routinely had all its teeth pulled by the USA. Years of being briefed against, not having its dues paid and having its resolutions vetoed and ignored have made it what it is. The blame lies squarely with your southern noisy neighbour.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:23 PM

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/11/23/roy/sctFniw6Wn2n9nTdxZ91RJ/story.html

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 12:57 PM

Thanks Richard.
It is written by Sara Roy, author of "Hamas and Civil Society in Gaza: Engaging the Islamist Social Sector." who lives in a Universe where Gaza is still occupied.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 01:35 PM

yes 300

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 02:04 PM

Ahh..999, and Steve(I can't believe it)..the U.N. question I was asking, "So why is the U.N. doing nothing much?..either in Israel or Syria??" has to do with the 'Security Council'....
What do those five countries, United States, United kingdom, France, China and Russia, have in common, besides being on the 'Security Council'....what is is they have to gain...by prolonging doing anything?...there, or almost anywhere else?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:28 PM

Is it that they all have nuclear weapons GFS?

The most significant thing in my opinion is the positions taken by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah since the Israeli assault began. None have offered nearly so much support for Hamas and Gaza as they did during Operation Cast Lead three years ago . This can only be because they are aware that Hamas, which is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood , moved its international HQ to Qatar earlier in the year to join the emerging anti-Syrian , anti-Iranian, Sunni consensus being constructed in that country under the guidance of Saudi Arabia and the watchful eye of the US - Israel's main ally . The Muslim Brotherhood in Syria is very much part of that emerging consensus .

Because the Israelis didn't send in ground forces ,Hamas is able to sell the past eight days of slaughter as some sort of a victory for itself and the people of the enclave. But it was nothing of the sort. In the same week that he announced dictatorial powers for himself ,it was Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood President, Mohammed Mursi that negotiated the ceasefire between Gaza and Israel, with the approval of Washington ,because it allows the US to concentrate on its strategy of regime change in Syria and then Iran. This explains the words of Netanyahu in agreeing to the ceasefire, , "We also have other fronts. We must take into account the entire picture."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:36 PM

In other words, yes the Israeli leaders are complete arseholes (unless that's an oxymoron lol) , but they are not stupid

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 03:38 PM

mayomick, I'm glad you took a shot at it!!
You're sorta close..but this may cast a different light on the U.N.'s 'Security Council's' agenda..
U.S., U.K., China, Russia, and France ARE the world's largest and near only, traders of arms, both black market and 'over the counter'(legitimate)!
It accounts for a tremendous amount of their GDP along with the illegal drug trade!!!
Yes, times are tough..but no matter what ideology they taut, Socialism, communism, Fascism..they've ALL made a bundle of the capitalistic arms and drug trade!!!!!
Think they will vote against their financial interests????!!!!???

True Story!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 05:40 PM

The problem with the UN is that any one of the Security Council can veto anything that the majority wants... And with so many different national interests that occurs over and over...

BTW, I am curious as to why Netanyahu seems to have given up as much as he is reported in the cease-fire/truce agreement...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:43 PM

""The Israeli Defense Force said a group of about 300 people had approached a fence in a no-go area east of Khan Younis on Friday and some attempted to break through.""

1. What right have the Israelis to set up no go areas on the Gaza side of the fence?

2. "The Israeli Defence Force said"......well that'll be the truth then, for the more gullible onlooker.

3. 300 people try to break through a fence in the face of IDF border units..........What is wrong with this concept?

4. The Israelis are worried enough to shoot into the crowd, but only hit one man.............incredible. They need re-training.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 06:48 PM

""Still no real response to my question as to why all these essential medical & nutritional supplies can't get in by same route as the missiles, apart from good old predictable J Carroll's 'guns not butter' one. Any other suggestions of a reply to this imo simple & obvious question.""

You had a response from me on this subject, which you chose to ignore, so what is the point of asking?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:29 PM

Bobert, the way I see it :
Gaza is a surrounded pawn on the chessboard as far as Netenyahu is concerned . For Israel and America the strategic enemy is Iran .To isolate Iran they have deal with the Assad regime in Syria . At the same time they must prevent the overwhelming anti-Israeli sentiment in Egypt from translating itself into a pro-Iran movement. .

Public opinion in Israel was strongly against a ground invasion, but not against a continuation of the war on Gaza by air . The Israeli government calculated that it could only proceed by either continuing its air campaign or by making a deal of some sort with Hamas . The former course would enrage "the Arab street" from Egypt to Syria , thereby threatening the Saudi-backed Sunni alliance being put in place to deal with Iran . The most sensible thing for Israel to do was allow Egypt to re-assume the role of policing access to Gaza that it used to play under Mubarach .

Israel cannot act independently of its major ally and sponsor , and knows that Washington has designs for the region as a whole.A lot of leftists talk about the Israeli tail wagging the American dog ,but that's not the way things are: America tells Israel what to do , not the other way around . Continued bombing of Gaza would upset America's overall calculations without achieving anything more than senseless slaughter. For some in Israel that would be enough,of course, but, for now at least, Netenyahu "must take into account the entire picture". The diplomatic custodian of that entire picture is the American State Department.

Hillary Clinton expressed the State Department's views this way on her visit to Cairo two days before the ceasefire was announced :

"Egypt's new government is assuming the responsibility and leadership that has long made this country a cornerstone of regional stability and peace."

Electorally, Netenyahu and Liebermann have done enough to ensure Israel's bomb-them-back-to-the-Dark Ages vote in next year's election. I really can't see what Netenyahu is supposed to have given up.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 09:40 PM

I agree... Seems that Yetanyahu folded after several phone conversation from Obama...

As for Egypt??? I see this more as a temper tantrum of the Murbarak supporters who are duping a few disgruntled leftists into joining in as they are pissed that things ain't happening as fast as they would like...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 12 - 11:56 PM

Bobert: "Seems that Yetanyahu folded after several phone conversation from Obama.."

Don't fool yourself, Ol' Bobert!
Israel's sense of national survival does not mirror ours.
Frankly, if I were Netanyahu, I'd say about anything to Obama to get that fool off the phone!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:33 AM


1. What right have the Israelis to set up no go areas on the Gaza side of the fence?

All israel's border fences are set on their side of the border with a no-go area within their territory.
Apart from security, it enables them to do maintainance on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:15 AM

All Israel's border fences are set on what they have unilaterally decided is their side of the border with a no-go area within the territory they have usurped.
Apart from security, it enables them to do maintenance on both sides, which is what you have to do when you've constructed a huge open prison and decreed exactly how many calories each Gaza inhabitant is entitled to.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:54 AM

Miko Peleds grandfather signed Israel into existence.

His Father was a war hero in the 1947 and 1967 wars.

His niece was killed by palestinian a suicide bomber.


His critics call him a self hating Jew.


They say the same thing about Norman Finkelstein and Max Blumenthal.


I suppose that easier than engaging with the facts.


Miko Peled speaking on October 1st this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:02 AM

Steve Shaw, Israel did not decide where the border with Gaza lies.
Why claim it did?

Why do you people all make stuff up about Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:20 AM

"Steve Shaw, Israel did not decide where the border with Gaza lies.
Why claim it did?"

Keith A of Hertford

Please explain how you think the "borders" of Gaza came about.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:42 AM

I think they were decided between Egypt and Israel in 1948 when Egypt controlled Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 10:12 AM

You think? You are calling Shaw a liar and you "think?"

Be ashamed!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 10:40 AM

Acthally, Jack, he DOESN'T think - therein lies the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 10:45 AM

I was just repeating your word "think."
It is a fact that the Gaza border with Israel was agreed between Israel and Egypt, who controlled it, in 1949.
The boundaries are defined by the "1967 borders"
The Palestinian negotiators claim a return to those lines as the boundary for a future Palestinian state. The Arab League has supported these boundaries as the borders of the future State of Palestine in the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 11:09 AM

So Greg, it is not me who does not think, and Steve was quite wrong to make that false claim.

Why can you people not discuss this without making stuff up and being offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:08 PM

Try a little more thinking, Keith, and a little less emoting. Just an outsider's observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:14 PM

Thinking?????
Most of it is 'left wing' rhetoric that they just repeat, as if it was fact.
The 'right wing' does the same thing...however, when a foreign country starts lobbing missiles into your country, both sides, left or right, WILL defend themselves.
When the 'left' starts Israel bashing('cause that's in their talking points), they might consider that Israel, if it was all that bad, could have blasted their enemies to oblivion a LONG time ago..but hasn't, have they?...and REPEATEDLY, it is the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc etc, who has launched attacks into Israel's borders......but that doesn't count, does it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 12:49 PM

Greg, most of the emoting has come from the anti-Israelis about their supposed evil deeds.
I do think out my posts (exception when sidetracked onto WW2 RAF bomb construction)
It is the anti-Israelis who have to make up crimes that should do more thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 01:44 PM

"anti Israeli"

Such an easy accusation to make.

What about Miko Peled?

Is he anti Israeli?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:17 PM

The governments of Israel and Hamas are trying to keep the truce.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:26 PM

Yes, Bruce, they are....now to see who breaks it.
Stay tuned.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 02:40 PM

First you say Israel did not decide the boarders, then you say that they set the boarders in partnership with the Egyptians, then you say they decided the boarders in conquest in the 1967 war, (which is my understanding) then you contradict your first two, conflicting statements by saying that the Palestinians want to go back to the boarder that Israel and Egypt set?

Shame on your bold faced lies. Shame on your stupidity. Shame on your lack of respect of the people on this forum by not thinking before you type and for not even bothering to read your own previous lies before typing in new ones.

Shame
Shame Shame!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM

Jack dear.
It is a fact that Egypt and Israel agreed the border over sixty years ago.
The border stood until the 1968 war so it is referred to as the 67 border.
That is the border accepted by all the Palestinians, and the 1967 borders are what they are demanding elsewhere, but they are already in place between Israel and Gaza.
I do not tell lies Jack, and in this discussion I wouldn't need to anyway.
I expect you would like to apologise.
Why is your side of this discussion so offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM

Keith dear,
You say "It is a fact that Egypt and Israel agreed the border over sixty years ago."

Would you be so very kind as to state precisely when any such border agreement was signed ,my hearty good friend? The reason I make my inquiry is that it has always been my firm belief that no border had been agreed between Egypt and Israel until the signing of a peace deal between the two countries in 1972 .

I will most certainly not accuse you of lying ,my dear friend , but of taking something of a shortcut,shall we say, in your presentation of the facts.

The armistice agreements reached in 1949 were clear that they were not creating permanent borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated:

"The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:24 PM

Who are these "anti-Israelis", Keith? I'm certainly not one. In fact, I'm extremely pro-Israeli. I want every Israeli citizen to live in peace, prosperity and security. I'm anti those people who put ordinary Israeli families in harm's way. The people who claim to be protecting ordinary Israelis are actually the same people who make it impossible for them to live honest, peaceful lives. That is not me or Hamas or anyone else outside Israel. It is Mr Netanyahu and his mates, and his predecessors, and his supporters in his administration, and all those people in the US, led by AIPAC, who lean on their administration to arm Israel to the teeth. Actually, Keith, when I come to think of it, I'm a damn sight more pro-Israeli than you will ever be.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 01:18 AM

Mick. how refreshing to be spoken to with courtesy.
Thank you.
You are right of course that the boundaries agreed in 49 were not created as international borders at that time.
Since then those same borders, agreed between Israel and Egypt, the controlling authority of Gaza, have become accepted by all parties, including every Palestinian faction,
They are part of the "green line" that Palestinians want a return to, but in Gaza already have.

I hope you will agree that I was right to clarify Steve's intemperate claim that "Israel unilaterally decided" the Gaza border.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 03:05 AM

Steve, if you were "pro-Israel" you would not join in the slandering of Israel with made up crimes indulged in by all the Israel bashers because it inconsiderately refuses to commit any real ones.

Israel had not "unilaterally decided is their side of the border " as you falsely stated.

My reply " they were decided between Egypt and Israel in 1948 when Egypt controlled Gaza. " was the actual, factual truth.

You have yet to acknowledge this and allowed Jack's completely unjustified assault on me to stand, i.e.
"Shame on your bold faced lies. Shame on your stupidity. Shame on your lack of respect of the people on this forum by not thinking before you type and for not even bothering to read your own previous lies before typing in new ones.

Shame
Shame Shame!!!! "

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:07 AM

the slandering of Israel with made up crimes indulged in by all the Israel bashers because it inconsiderately refuses to commit any real ones.

What a jaw-dropping, incredible comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:23 AM

""It is a fact that the Gaza border with Israel was agreed between Israel and Egypt, who controlled it, in 1949.
The boundaries are defined by the "1967 borders"""

That horse seems to be pushing the cart!

The borders were decided in '49 and defined by the '67 border.

That doesn't make sense unless you believe in time travel.

Apart from which, the '67 border was decided by the winners of a war grabbing territory from the losers, n'est ce pas?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:26 AM

""and REPEATEDLY, it is the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc etc, who has launched attacks into Israel's borders......but that doesn't count, does it?""

I'm sure the Palestinians would see that as trying to escape a concentration camp set up by a neighbour.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:31 AM

""ultimate settlement of the Palestine question." ""

That phrase has some very unpleasant connotations, which, in the light of recent events make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:48 AM

Israel Bashers ...

... I wonder - Is Miko Peled an Israel Basher? Or Norman Finkelstein? Or max blumenthal? or any one of an increasing number of American and Israeli Jews who are becoming less easy to convince of the Hasbara mantra?

No They aren't - and use of the term "israeli Basher" is an easy way out that is losing its short term power to mislead as the truth about the operational reality of the Zionist dream not only endures, despite attempts to suppress it, but is compounded with each election campaign ... er ... I mean war ... er ... I mean massacre.

Well thankfully Finkelstein was right that this latest crisis was not going to escalate. Clever man.

He was right about the rest of it too.

All Israeli sources of course ... because in this debate Arab sources are assumed to be unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:55 AM


The borders were decided in '49 and defined by the '67 border.

That doesn't make sense unless you believe in time travel.

Apart from which, the '67 border was decided by the winners of a war grabbing territory from the losers, n'est ce pas?

No Don.
When people talk of the 67 boundaries, the mean BEFORE the 67 war.
That is what the Palestinians want a return to.
Prior to the 67 war, Gaza borders were as agreed in 49.
Those are the current boundaries of Gaza and no-one in the world is challenging them except for some Mudcat members.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:02 AM

"Prior to the 67 war, Gaza borders were as agreed in 49.
Those are the current boundaries of Gaza and no-one in the world is challenging them except for some Mudcat members."

People aren't challenging "the borders of Gaza", they are challenging the borders of Palestine.

This includes the west bank.

This includes the challenge to Israeli settlements.

And in contrast to "some mudcat members" challenging this, in fact the international community has challlenged this explicitly in the form of UN resolutions.

So perhaps it would be more accurate to say "some mudcat members, and about 180 countries worldwide".

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:22 AM

On this thread we are discussing Gaza.
All discussion has been about Gaza, and 340 posts is a bit late to start discussing an even bigger subject.
If you want my opinion on other boundaries in the Middle East, start another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:26 AM

Well, the Gazans and Israelis seem to be doing better than the people who post here. Incidentally, yesterday the Iranians were loading a ship with missiles. Israel suspects the end users will be in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:33 AM

Clipping- Islamic edict makes violating Gaza cease-fire a sin:


Cease-fire

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 08:37 AM

Good article, Ed. I read it yesterday somewhere. Sanity may yet prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 11:05 AM

Assuming that we all know that Israle won the 67 war. Keith has utterly obliterated his own points.

He has said.

"Israel did not set Gaza's borders."

He has said that in 1949, Isreal "agreed to the borders." So Keith is saying that they had a a large hand in setting them even then.

Then in 1967 the Borders of Gaza, became wherever the victorious army "Israel's" decided to stop. Since then Israel has guarded the borders, including the sea, and not only decided the boundaries but what could pass though them. Then until very recently Israel set the boarders WITHIN gaza, by allowing "settlements and giving them military support.

But lets go back to Keith's statement that Palestine want's to "go back to" the 1967 boarders? That statement proves (in the context of a disagreement with the speaker) that the boarders have changed. All we have to do in that case is consider who set the post 1967 boundaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 01:05 PM

"On this thread we are discussing Gaza."

ha ha - how funny - what an excellent way of avoiding having to explaiin a flaw in your reasoning.

In your mind the issue of the 67 borders in relation to Gaza is a separate subject in isolation.

There is only one topical debate on the question of 67 borders and it is not about Gaza - only Keith would try to pretend otherwise.

Mr Grumpy says that I am late joining the discussion.

... and? ...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 01:18 PM

Something the rest of you might find interesting.

Here is a collection of testimonies of IDF soldiers who have broken their silence to condemn IDF actions in Gaza.

Amongst other things they describe the blockade as punishment.

Presumably they are also Israel Bashers/Haters.


IDF Testimony

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 02:02 PM

""All discussion has been about Gaza, and 340 posts is a bit late to start discussing an even bigger subject.
If you want my opinion on other boundaries in the Middle East, start another thread.""

So you, Keith, don't think that what happens in the West Bank would have any bearing on the likely actions of Hamas in Gaza.

I sure wish I had your smug certainty of always being right.

It certainly reflects both the dishonesty and arrogance of the Israeli government, and your own dishonesty in stating that Israel have committed no crimes and behaved honourably, simply because their internationally recognised crimes took place elsewhere than the bit you wish to focus on.

When you made that statement it did not finish with "in Gaza", did it?

Your intention obviously to gloss over what you cannot justify.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,songster
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 02:19 PM

Apropos those who are disappointed that the Israeli casualties are not higher:

too bad the Israelis have iron dome Department

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:24 PM

Isn't "Iron Dome" just something that allows the Israelis to practice their "self-deportation" from Palestine policy with a little fewer consequences for Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 04:57 PM

We were talking about the Gazan border where someone died a couple of days ago.
I said, correctly that the fence was inside Israel's border.
Steve then said that Israel had unilaterally set the border.

The border was decided and agreed in 49 by the government on either side.
Egypt and Israel.
Not unilateral

They have since been accepted by everyone concerned.
You people hardly count.

The Palestinians demand Israel withdraws to the "green lines" pre 67 war.
In Gaza they already have.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:00 PM

I understand that you all want to move away from the specific case of Gaza, because you can not make a case over Gaza.

Fine, but I am not discussing any other topic on this thread.
Start a new one and I wil gladly debate any issue with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:03 PM

Keith. Once again , the borders were not agreed in 49 .

The 1949 Egyptian-Israeli Armistice agreement stated:

"The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:16 PM

Lox that is simply appalling, and I'm tempted to break the one page rule and copy/paste the whole thing.

In fact, if Keith & Co don't take the trouble to read it, or if they try to claim it is all lies, I damn well will do so.

I'd like some comment from the "Israel is merely defending itself" brigade, bearing in mind that US and UK troops have been tried and punished for similar actions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:21 PM

You can check the Armistice Agreement lodged with the UN here:
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/9EC4A332E2FF9A128525643D007702E6
Convention générale d'armistice entre Israël et l'Egypte
Here are the relevant articles ,1V and V

Article IV

With specific reference to the implementation of the resolutions of the Security Council of 4 and 16 November 1948, the following principles and purposes are affirmed:

1. The principle that no military or political advantage should be gained under the truce ordered by the Security Council is recognized.

2. It is also recognized that the basic purposes and spirit of the Armistice would not be served by the restoration of previously held military positions, changes from those now held other than as specifically provided for in this Agreement, or by the advance of the military forces of either side beyond positions held at the time this Armistice Agreement is signed.

3. It is further recognized that rights, claims or interests of a non-military character in the area of Palestine covered by this Agreement may be asserted by either Party, and that these, by mutual agreement being excluded from the Armistice negotiations, shall be, at the discretion of the Parties, the subject of later settlement. It is emphasized that it is not the purpose of this Agreement to establish, to recognize, to strengthen, or to weaken or nullify, in any way, any territorial, custodial or other rights, claims or interests which may be asserted by either Party in the area of Palestine or any part or locality thereof covered by this Agreement, whether such asserted rights, claims or interests derive from Security Council resolutions, including the resolution of 4 November 1948 and the Memorandum of 13 November 1948 for its implementation, or from any other source. The provisions of this Agreement are dictated exclusively by military considerations and are valid only for the period of the Armistice.

Article V

1. The line described in Article VI of this Agreement shall be designated as the Armistice Demarcation Line and is delineated in pursuance of the purpose and intent of the resolutions of the Security Council of 4 and 16 November 1948.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question.

3. The basic purpose of the Armistice Demarcation Line is to delineate the line beyond which the armed forces of the respective Parties shall not move except as provided in Article III of this Agreement.

4. Rules and regulations of the armed forces of the Parties, which prohibit civilians from crossing the fighting lines or entering the area between the lines, shall remain in effect after the signing of this Agreement with application to the Armistice Demarcation Line defined in Article VI.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:26 PM

November 25, 2012

"There is no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders," President Barack Obama said at a press conference last week. He drew on this general observation in order to justify Operation Pillar of Defense, Israel's most recent military campaign in the Gaza Strip. In describing the situation this way, he assumes, like many others, that Gaza is a political entity external and independent of Israel. This is not so. It is true that Israel officially disengaged from the Gaza Strip in August 2005, withdrawing its ground troops and evacuating the Israeli settlements there. But despite the absence of a permanent ground presence, Israel has maintained a crushing control over Gaza from that moment until today.

The testimonies of Israeli army veterans expose the truth of that "disengagement." Before Operation Pillar of Defense, after all, Israel launched Operations Summer Rains and Autumn Clouds in 2006, and Hot Winter and Cast Lead in 2008 -- all involving ground invasions. In one testimony, a veteran speaks of "a battalion operation" in Gaza that lasted for five months, where the soldiers were ordered to shoot "to draw out terrorists" so they "could kill a few."

    Israeli naval blockades stop Gazans from fishing, a main source of food in the Strip. Air blockades prevent freedom of movement. Israel does not allow building materials into the area, forbids exports to the West Bank and Israel, and (other than emergency humanitarian cases) prohibits movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. It controls the Palestinian economy by periodically withholding import taxes. Its restrictions have impeded the expansion and upgrading of the Strip's woeful sewage infrastructure, which could render life in Gaza untenable within a decade. The blocking of seawater desalination has turned the water supply into a health hazard. Israel has repeatedly demolished small power plants in Gaza, ensuring that the Strip would have to continue to rely on the Israeli electricity supply. Daily power shortages have been the norm for several years now. Israel's presence is felt everywhere, militarily and otherwise.

    By relying on factual misconceptions, political leaders, deliberately or not, conceal information that is critical to our understanding of events. Among the people best qualified to correct those misconceptions are the individuals who have been charged with executing a state's policies -- in this case, Israeli soldiers themselves, an authoritative source of information about their government's actions. I am a veteran of the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), and I know that our first-hand experiences refute the assumption, accepted by many, including President Obama, that Gaza is an independent political entity that exists wholly outside Israel. If Gaza is outside Israel, how come we were stationed there? If Gaza is outside Israel, how come we control it? Oded Na'aman

    [The testimonies by Israeli veterans that follow are taken from 145 collected by the nongovernmental organization Breaking the Silence and published in Our Harsh Logic: Israeli Soldiers' Testimonies From the Occupied Territories, 2000-2010. Those in the book represent every division in the IDF and all locations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.]

More to follow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 05:30 PM

1. House Demolition
Unit: Kfir Brigade
Location: Nablus district
Year: 2009

During your service in the territories, what shook you up the most?
The searches we did in Hares. They said there are sixty houses that have to be searched. I thought there must have been some information from intelligence. I tried to justify it to myself.
You went out as a patrol?
It was a battalion operation. They spread out over the whole village, took over the school, smashed the locks, the classrooms. One was used as the investigation room for the Shin Bet, one room for detainees, one for the soldiers to rest. We went in house by house, banging on the door at two in the morning. The family's dying of fear, the girls are peeing in their pants with fear. We go into the house and turn everything upside down.
What's the procedure?
Gather the family in a certain room, put a guard there, tell the guard to aim his gun at them, and then search the rest of the house. We got another order that everyone born after 1980... everyone between sixteen and twenty-nine, doesn't matter who, bring them in cuffed and blindfolded. They yelled at old people, one of them had an epileptic seizure but they carried on yelling at him. Every house we went into, we brought everyone between sixteen and twenty-nine to the school. They sat tied up in the schoolyard.
Did they tell you the purpose of all this?
To locate weapons. But we didn't find any weapons. They confiscated kitchen knives. There was also stealing. One guy took twenty shekels. Guys went into the houses and looked for things to steal. This was a very poor village. The guys were saying, "What a bummer, there's nothing to steal."
That was said in a conversation among the soldiers?
Yeah. They enjoyed seeing the misery, the guys were happy talking about it. There was a moment someone yelled at the soldiers. They knew he was mentally ill, but one of the soldiers decided that he'd beat him up anyway, so they smashed him. They hit him in the head with the butt of the gun, he was bleeding, then they brought him to the school along with everyone else. There were a pile of arrest orders signed by the battalion commander, ready, with one area left blank. They'd fill in that the person was detained on suspicion of disturbing the peace. They just filled in the name and the reason for arrest. There were people with plastic handcuffs that had been put on really tight. I got to speak with the people there. One of them had been brought into Israel to work for a settler and after two months the guy didn't pay him and handed him over to the police.
All these people came from that one village?
Yes.
Anything else you remember from that night?
A small thing, but it bothered me -- one house that they just destroyed. They have a dog for weapons searches, but they didn't bring him; they just wrecked the house. The mother watched from the side and cried. Her kids sat with her and stroked her.
What do you mean, they just destroyed the house?
They smashed the floors, turned over sofas, threw plants and pictures, turned over beds, smashed the closets, the tiles. There were other things -- the look on the people's faces when you go into their house. And after all that, they were left tied up and blindfolded in the school for hours. The order came to free them at four in the afternoon. So that was more than twelve hours. There were investigators from the security services there who interrogated them one by one.
Had there been a terrorist attack in the area?
No. We didn't even find any weapons. The brigade commander claimed that the Shin Bet did find some intelligence, that there were a lot of guys there who throw stones.

Comments?.........or do you need more?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:06 PM

I don't doubt that at all, Don. Bad shit happens in war and warfare. I was about to PM you and I'll now do so. The IDF cannot be whitewashed in this any more than can the various groups who attack Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:34 PM

Yes - Very upsetting.

I was sent that link by Miko Peled who is a friend of mine.

I feel its important to spend more time listening to my Israeli friends than to bother about non Israelis who worry about alleged anti Israeli sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:53 PM

"There is no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders," President Barack Obama said at a press conference last week. He drew on this general observation in order to justify Operation Pillar of Defense, Israel's most recent military campaign in the Gaza Strip.

In that case, surely the day is imminent that Pakistan retaliates against the US, considering the death, destruction and misery caused by those unmanned drone attacks from outside its borders...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM

It's good to see you back, Lox.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:13 PM

Amongst other things they describe the blockade as punishment.

Indeed. Those soldiers could have said collective punishment, an Israeli government speciality. Those horrid Gazans voted for Hamas so they've got it coming (OK, Michael?). Well let's just have a quick look (I stand to be corrected on the fine detail, which seems hard to come by). The population of the Gaza strip is about 1,600,000 souls. At least half the population is too young to vote. The turnout of eligible voters was under 75%. More than half of those who turned out voted for parties other than Hamas. By my reckoning then, being generous, maybe about three or four hundred thousand Gazans at the very most voted for Hamas. Out of at least four times that many citizens of Gaza. To me, Mr Simpleton here, that looks like a policy of collective punishment, which is undeniably what that blockade is, which is utterly unjustified and utterly inhumane.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Nov 12 - 07:16 PM

Never far away :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 01:15 AM

Mick, I know the 49 agreement was not intended to be permanent at the time, but the agreed border for Gaza was not controversial or disputed and has since become accepted by everyone, except a few folkies.

So, they were not set unilaterally by Israel as claimed by Steve.
It was a bilateral agreement between the only two parties concerned.
I was not lying, as claimed by Jack.

Everyone was happy with that agreement, so there was no reason ever to change it.
After 67 all the Gazan Palestinians wanted was that border back.
Israel has obliged.
What is the issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 02:49 AM

Are Some Soldiers Arseholes?
Yes.
And some are consumed with hate.

There have been almost identical accounts of British soldiers searching houses in Northern Ireland.
There have been much worse accounts of US soldiers in Iraq.
Remember whole families murdered, one family gunned down after the rape and murder of their 14 year old girl?

No doubt some Hamas fighters do bad things too, but they could never go public.
Remember the fate of the 4 "spies" last week?

If only Hamas would call off the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 04:34 AM

The Israeli soldiers accounts describe systematic abuse not isolated incidents.

Hamas have only been in power since 2006 - the 'war' has been going on much longer than that - sop they can't have started it.

Besides, Miko Peled and many other Israeli Jews like him, in addition to many non Israeli Jews, seem quite sure that it was their country that is the aggressor and the conqueror.

Arab testimony is of course unreliable, as we all know, and therefore inadmissable, since they are, according to Netanhyahu, an inferior culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:06 AM

On the subject of the borders and the buffer zone,

The provisions of the current truce include freedom for Palestinian fishermen to fish up to 6 miles out from the shore as opposed to the 3 miles they have been forced to make do with in recent times as well as freedom to return to farm their lands in the buffer zone.

Not that this has deterred the IDF, who despite the ceasefire have been firing on farmers and fishing boats in these areas.

I wondered whether this news might be of any use to those of you discussing the border/buffer zone question.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:10 AM

""I don't doubt that at all, Don. Bad shit happens in war and warfare. I was about to PM you and I'll now do so. The IDF cannot be whitewashed in this any more than can the various groups who attack Israelis.""

Precisely my continuously repeated point Bruce.

BOTH TO BLAME!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:18 AM

""There have been almost identical accounts of British soldiers searching houses in Northern Ireland.
There have been much worse accounts of US soldiers in Iraq.
Remember whole families murdered, one family gunned down after the rape and murder of their 14 year old girl?""

I think I just forestalled that comment by menytioning it in connection with that Israeli's evidence.

Two glaring differences:-

1. The US and UK crimes were committed by small squads run amuk, while the Gaza crime was "a batallion operation".

2. THe US and UK criminals were tried and punished by their own side when caught. There is no record, to my knowledge of an Israeli BATALLION being even criticised.


Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:30 AM

It isn't so simple as "both to blame". This incredibly lopsided "conflict" is fuelled entirely from outside. Smuggled rocket parts keep Hamas going and three billion a year military aid (unconditional, of course) from the US makes Israel feel immune. Naturally, Israel gets great comfort and encouragement from us in the west who hardly ever dare criticise even their worst outrages in Gaza, whilst simultaneously condemning in far stronger terms those satanic yet ramshackle rockets that nearly always miss. Apportioning blame is (apart from being useless in terms of making progress) impossible without including outside influences in the reckoning. The balance of such influences between the two sides is reflective of the disproportionality of Israel's response to its irritating neighbour. None of this is intended to let anyone off the hook, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:49 AM

Nowhere did I say anything about both being equally to blame Steve, but it does take two to make a fight.

My main concern is in confronting those who wish to demonise Hamas and Gazans, while at the same time trying to misrepresent Israel as a squeaky clean victim.

You know who you are.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 05:53 AM

2. Naval Blockade

Unit: Navy

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2008

It's mostly punishment. I hate that: "They did this to us, so we'll do that to them." Do you know what a naval blockade means for the people in Gaza? There's no food for a few days. For example, suppose there's an attack in Netanya, so they impose a naval blockade for four days on the entire Strip. No seagoing vessel can leave. A Dabur patrol boat is stationed at the entrance to the port, if they try to go out, within seconds the soldiers shoot at the bow and even deploy attack helicopters to scare them. We did a lot of operations with attack helicopters -- they don't shoot much because they prefer to let us deal with that, but they're there to scare people, they circle over their heads. All of a sudden there's a Cobra right over your head, stirring up the wind and throwing everything around.

And how frequent were the blockades?

Very. It could be three times one month, and then three months of nothing. It depends.

The blockade goes on for a day, two days, three days, four, or more than that?

I can't remember anything longer than four days. If it was longer than that, they'd die there, and I think the IDF knows that. Seventy percent of Gaza lives on fishing -- they have no other choice. For them it means not eating. There are whole families who don't eat for a few days because of the blockade. They eat bread and water.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:03 AM

We shot at fishermen

Unit: Navy

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2007

There's an area bordering Gaza that's under the navy's control. Even after Israel disengaged from the Strip, nothing changed in the sea sector. I remember that near Area K, which divided Israel and Gaza, there were kids as young as four or six, who'd get up early in the morning to fish, in the areas that were off-limits. They'd go there because the other areas were crowded with fishermen. The kids always tried to cross, and every morning we'd shoot in their direction to scare them off. It got to the point of shooting at the kids' feet where they were standing on the beach or at the ones on surfboards. We had Druze police officers on board who'd scream at them in Arabic. We'd see the poor kids crying.

What do you mean, "shoot in their direction"?

It starts with shooting in the air, then it shifts to shooting close by, and in extreme cases it becomes shooting toward their legs.

At what distance?

Five or six hundred meters, with a Rafael heavy machine gun, it's all automatic.

Where do you aim?

It's about perspective. On the screen, there's a measure for height and a one for width, and you mark where you want the bullet to go with the cursor. It cancels out the effect of the waves and hits where it's supposed to, it's precise.

You aim a meter away from the surfboard?

More like five or six meters. I heard about cases where they actually hit the surfboards, but I didn't see it. There were other things that bothered me, this thing with Palestinian fishing nets. The nets cost around four thousand shekels, which is like a million dollars for them. When they wouldn't do what we said too many times, we'd sink their nets. They leave their nets in the water for something like six hours. The Dabur patrol boat comes along and cuts their nets.

Why?

As a punishment.

For what?

Because they didn't do what we said. Let's say a boat drifts over to an area that's off-limits, so a Dabur comes, circles, shoots in the air, and goes back. Then an hour later, the boat comes back and so does the Dabur. The third time around, the Dabur starts shooting at the nets, at the boat, and then shoots to sink them.

Is the off-limits area close to Israel?

There's one area close to Israel and another along the Israeli-Egyptian border… Israel's sea border is twelve miles out, and Gaza's is only three. They've only got those three miles, and that's because of one reason, which is that Israel wants its gas, and there's an offshore drilling rig something like three and a half miles out facing the Gaza Strip, which should be Palestinian, except that it's ours… the Navy Special Forces unit provides security for the rig. A bird comes near the area, they shoot it. There's an insane amount of security for that thing. One time there were Egyptian fishing nets over the three-mile limit, and we dealt with them. A total disaster.

Meaning?

They were in international waters, we don't have jurisdiction there, but we'd shoot at them.

At Egyptian fishing nets?

Yes. Although we're at peace with Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:17 AM

There are two threads ongoing on Israel, the 'arseholes' one and the 'Vilnai.. Shoah' one. I am posting this on both.

I have previously posted on both in defence of Israeli policy in Gaza, which has led some, understandably, to question the wholeheartedness of the rejection I have long professed of any identification with present-day Israel, a vast disappointment to many like me in my generation of Jews and its successors. I still feel that the Israeli position on the Gaza situation is understandable in the circumstances, and maintain my mystification as to how weapons but not food can get in.

But I shall no longer pursue this attitude; nor will I contribute any further to, or even open again, either of these threads.

This decision follows my horror at reading Lox's link on one of the threads to the members of the IDF's accounts of their colleagues' behaviour in carrying out searches, which consisted largely of maltreatment of the occupants of houses chosen to be searched. These activities were, I shame to say, learnt from the behaviour of British troops occupying Palestine under the Mandate. I have related before, on another thread, the stories my family learned from an Israeli friend who stayed as a houseguest with us in the late 40s, soon after Israel's Independence, of her friend's having experience a search by British soldiers, which consisted, with their sergeant's consent & encouragement, of nothing but shitting on the floor and then using the family's personal clothing to wipe their bums. And these, I repeat, were British soldiers, oh the shame! It seems the way soldiers go on in such situations

But, be that as it may, I still cannot countenance the tales in Lox's link of Israeli soldiers going on in any such fashion, mistreating innocent occupants of houses they have chosen to search, destroying things, and so on, whoever or wherever their predecessors in such conduct might have been.

So, I repeat, I leave this thread and its companion: with my curse on what Israel has become as my final words.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 09:36 AM

Nowhere did I say anything about both being equally to blame Steve, but it does take two to make a fight.

My main concern is in confronting those who wish to demonise Hamas and Gazans, while at the same time trying to misrepresent Israel as a squeaky clean victim.

You know who you are.

We are not disagreeing in any substantial way. But I think in this case it has taken more than two, not to make the fight necessarily, but to keep the flames fanned. If you're looking around for blame, it isn't hard to pick out the US as a massive culprit in all this (along with the lily-livered EU with their "moral" support). They bankroll Israel's military unconditionally but do very little effectively in return to broker peace (most "efforts" to do this are a complete sham organised by the US/Israel/AIPAC axis, with nothing meaningful on the table for the Palestinians). The US/Israel perpetual love-in is highly irresponsible, and is behind not only this conflict but all other conflicts in the middle east in which Israel or the west have been involved. We do nothing to make Israel into a grown-up, responsible nation. I actually believe that that makes most Israelis far more miserable and insecure than they need to be. It encouraged the hubris that led to the egregiously-stupid assassination of Ahmed al-Jabari, a man who was involved in looking for a long-term ceasefire and who had brokered the release last year of Gilad Shalit.

Until we western thickos realise that Israel wants water and land for settlements far more than it wants peace, and redress that imbalance by making aid conditional, this tragedy will go on and on without end. Guaranteed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 09:53 AM

"The balance of such influences between the two sides is reflective of the disproportionality of Israel's response to its irritating neighbour."

Disproportionate it is. Like the man with his boot pressed down upon another mans neck, who complains when his victim tries to bite his ankle.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 10:12 AM

disproportionality of Israel's response

Because there were few Jews killed by the rockets?
Only because a third of the population were living in shelters!
A school was hit (again).
No children died because instead of being at school with their friends they were huddled, terrified, underground and had been for weeks.
Businesses and services shut down.
That is not acceptable, and the absence of many actual dead Jews does not make it OK.
The response was intended to stop the rockets, but it only reduced them, so not that disproportionate.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:12 AM

""Only because a third of the population were living in shelters!
A school was hit (again).""

While the Gazan civilians die on the surface, because the building materials to construct shelters are denied them.

And more than one school has beeen destroyed in Gaza, some by heavy artillery, some by air strike, and at least one that we know of by a Battallion strength search party of a village, which seems to have left nothing unbroken in its wake, without finding either weapons or the fighters who are supposed to be using them from behind civilians.

No possible justification can be accepted for that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:20 AM

Shoot to Kill

Unit: Engineering Corps

Location: Rafah

Year: 2006

During the operations in Gaza, anyone walking around in the street, you shoot at the torso. In one operation in the Philadelphi corridor, anyone walking around at night, you shoot at the torso.

How often were the operations?

Daily. In the Philadelphi corridor, every day.

When you're searching for tunnels, how do people manage to get around -- I mean, they live in the area.

It's like this: You bring one force up to the third or fourth floor of a building. Another group does the search below. They know that while they're doing the search there'll be people trying to attack them. So they put the force up high, so they can shoot at anyone down in the street.

How much shooting was there?

Endless.

Say I'm there, I'm up on the third floor. I shoot at anyone I see?

Yes.

But it's in Gaza, it's a street, it's the most crowded place in the world.

No, no, I'm talking about the Philadelphi corridor.

So that's a rural area?

Not exactly, there's a road, it's like the suburbs, not the center. During operations in the other Gaza neighborhoods it's the same thing. Shooting, during night operations -- shooting.

It there any kind of announcement telling people to stay indoors?

No.

They actually shot people?

They shot anyone walking around in the street. It always ended with, "We killed six terrorists today." Whoever you shot in the street is "a terrorist."

That's what they say at the briefings?

The goal is to kill terrorists.

What are the rules of engagement?

Whoever's walking around at night, shoot to kill.

During the day, too?

They talked about that in the briefings: whoever's walking around during the day, look for something suspicious. But something suspicious could be a cane.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:26 AM

Her limbs were smeared on the wall

Unit: Givati Brigade

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2008

One company told me they did an operation where a woman was blown up and smeared all over the wall. They kept knocking on her door and there was no answer, so they decided to open it with explosives. They placed them at the door and right at that moment the woman came to open it. Then her kids came down and saw her. I heard about it after the operation at dinner. Someone said it was funny that the kids saw their mother smeared on the wall and everyone cracked up. Another time I got screamed at by my platoon when I went to give the detainees some water from our field kit canteen. They said, "What, are you crazy?" I couldn't see what their problem was, so they said, "Come on, germs." In Nahal Oz, there was an incident with kids who'd been sent by their parents to try to get into Israel to find food, because their families were hungry. They were fourteen- or fifteen-year-old boys, I think. I remember one of them sitting blindfolded and then someone came and hit him, here.

On the legs.

And poured oil on him, the stuff we use to clean weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 11:50 AM

Hamas savages execute six "collaborators" and drag the body of one through the streets of Gaza, and the world press is indignant mostly silent.

To see how subhuman Hamas is, watch this video. It is not for the faint of heart. Earlier today, Hamas terrorists seized six Gaza residents whom they accused of being "spies" for Israel. The accusation was likely false, but we will never know. Be that as it may, the Hamas sadists pulled six men out of a van on a busy Gaza street, forced them to lie down on the street, and shot them dead. The mob of Palestinians that had gathered then stomped and spit on the pile of bodies. The Hamas men tied one of the six bodies to the back of a motorcycle and dragged it through the streets of Gaza City, in a scene reminiscent of The Wild Bunch.

Go here if you think your stomach can handle it!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:04 PM

Son of Hamas Leader: Hamas Atrocities Led Me to Convert

Musab Yousef exposes Hamas' tactics when dealing with their own. He now lives in California, with a Fatwa on his head.

Video

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:09 PM

Hamas Use of CHILDREN in Gaza as Human Shields

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 12:15 PM

"Subhuman"

"Sadists"

"Palestinian mob"

What helpful language. Have you read those accounts in Lox's link yet? Care to give any similarly emotional characterisations for those on the other side? And, after you've done all that, do tell us how much you think you've helped.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 02:48 PM

Don, agree nothing justifies inhumanity.

Building materials are allowed under aid agency supervision.
Hamas chooses missiles above food, so it would choose bunkers before shelters.

Now, what would be a proportionate response to the rocketing of Southern Israel.

If the response had been less, would they have reduced rocket fire, or increased it retaliation.
We now know they had plenty to fire.

How can the response be disproportionate when it only slightly reduced the rocketing?
Why did no-one object to the rocketing until, weeks later, Israel responded?
Why doesn't Hamas just call off the war and bring peace and prosperity in its place?
Israel wants nothing from Gaza but an end to the attacks.
Agree?
Or, what do you think Israel wants from the place they walked away from?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:50 PM

"Hamas savages execute six "collaborators" and drag the body of one through the streets of Gaza, and the world press is indignant mostly silent."

Not true.

It was front page news everywhere I looked.

And it was disgusting and savage and an affront to humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:50 PM

Isn't it telling that Israel is the only "Democracy" that has immigration, expulsions, subsidized sects of religion studying baby makers and unnatural artificial "boarders" in order to keep a single religion in control of its government?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:52 PM

How can the response be disproportionate when it only slightly reduced the rocketing?

Christ almighty, Keith, the rocketing was only slightly reduced because the response didn't work, that's why. It was not a good response so it didn't work. It was a disproportionate, lousy, ineffective response. So it did not work. I mean, wassup, Keith?!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 03:55 PM

The video about human shields is a propaganda exercise - I was hoping for some useful information.

I switched off when It began to lecture that "Israel views human shields as a violation etc etc"

I switched off because there is a lot of evidence around documenting Israels use of palestinian children as human shields.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 04:40 PM

"I switched off because there is a lot of evidence around documenting Israels use of palestinian children as human shields."

Any chance you'd link to some, Lox?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:33 PM

Steve, how should they have responded to the incessant rocketing of their people?
What would make Hamas stop trying to kill them?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:37 PM

Fathi Hamad, a senior member of Hamas, stated in 2008 that "for the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women and children excel. Accordingly we created a human shield of women, children and elderly. We seek death as you [Israelis] desire life."

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:38 PM

Here you are Bruce


Human Shields

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:41 PM

""Hamas terrorists seized six Gaza residents whom they accused of being "spies" for Israel. The accusation was likely false, but we will never know. Be that as it may, the Hamas sadists pulled six men out of a van on a busy Gaza street, forced them to lie down on the street, and shot them dead.""

So you are guessing that they might have been spies, without any ewvidence. Did it not occur to you that Hamas might have had just such evidence?

How does Israel treat spies? Not gently, I'm sure.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:46 PM

They have trials Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:46 PM

Steve, how should they have responded to the incessant rocketing of their people?
What would make Hamas stop trying to kill them?

Well, a good start would be to desist from further settlement expansion. They could follow that by dismantling the brutal apartheid wall that has divided farms and families. They could stop the road blocks. They could lift the siege (some progress there - maybe...). They could respect the Gaza border and desist from further aggressive military incursions. Once all that immediate stuff is done, they could agree to talks that include Hamas.

Ask a silly question, Keith, and you just might get the only sensible answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:50 PM

""Steve, how should they have responded to the incessant rocketing of their people?
What would make Hamas stop trying to kill them?""

Perhaps if Israel genuinely relinquished control of Gaza's borders?.......But, of course, they won't....ever.

Don T.

P.S. and please do not insult our intelligence by claiming that Israel doesn't control Gaza's border, including the Gaza/Egypt one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:53 PM

""Building materials are allowed under aid agency supervision.""

Since no aid agency has influence on Israeli policy, this is a sick joke.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:54 PM

They have trials Don.

They have trials all right - if you're an Israeli Jew. If you are unfortunate to not be in that category, you may be imprisoned without charge or trial, in what the Israelis call, in war-speak, "administrative detention". From wiki:

As of January 2012, 309 Palestinians were held without criminal charges, according to B'Tselem:

16 Palestinians have been held without charge for 2–4.5 years
88 have been held for 1–2 years
80 have been held for 6 months-1 year
In July 2012 the number had decreased to 250.

Like to qualify your statement, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM

The question was not silly Steve, but your answer was.
Israel evicted its settlers from Gaza and pulled out.
The rockets increased.
Ease the blockade.
More rockets.
Every concession is seized on as a victory to build on with more rockets.
Now seriously, when the rockets were falling harder than ever, a third of the people in shelters, what was Israel to do?
What would any people demand their government do?
Hit back.
Hard enough to at least reduce the terror and bring them to negotiate a truce.
Which happened.
The rockets have stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM

""It was front page news everywhere I looked.

And it was disgusting and savage and an affront to humanity.""

And it didn't justify aany Israeli action, because they aare as bad, or worse.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:57 PM

Thanks, Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:58 PM

And that was 400, and still the Israeli apologists think their side is NEVER wrong, in spite of Israeli evidence to the contrary.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 06:59 PM


P.S. and please do not insult our intelligence by claiming that Israel doesn't control Gaza's border, including the Gaza/Egypt one.
How can Israel control what Egypt chooses to do?

And Don, building materials are allowed in to be collected by aid agencies to ensure peaceful use.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:01 PM

""I switched off because there is a lot of evidence around documenting Israels use of palestinian children as human shields.""

OR TARGETS!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:01 PM

Talk about border wars going beyond their borders..............


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:07 PM

""Ease the blockade.
More rockets.""

Ease it?.....Get rid of the fucking thing!....Let Gazans run Gaza.

Did you ever consider that?   NO! of course you didn't.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:10 PM

""Hard enough to at least reduce the terror and bring them to negotiate a truce.""

BOLLOCKS! The way to peace is to leave them alone to sort out their own destiny.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 12 - 07:13 PM

My answer had nothing to do with pulling out of Gaza, Keith. Call it silly if you like but you sidestepped almost everything I said (the sure sign of a one-track, non-listening mind). OK, put your cards on the table. Straight answers would be good. Do you think the Israelis should stop building settlements? Do you think Israel should abide by UN resolutions? Do you really, honestly, in your heart-of hearts, think that Israel blasting Gaza like shooting fish in a barrel is ever going to effectively "defend its people" or make them more safe and secure?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 03:03 AM

Don.
""I switched off because there is a lot of evidence around documenting Israels use of palestinian children as human shields.""

OR TARGETS!

IDF do not target children.
Another lie from Mr.Impartial.

Perhaps if Israel genuinely relinquished control of Gaza's borders?.......But, of course, they won't....ever.

It is also Israel's border, so obviously they will control it.
Except the Egyptian bit which they have no control over..

And it didn't justify aany Israeli action, because they aare as bad, or worse.
There WAS no Israeli action after the lynchings.
Israel does not have lynchings or even capital punishment.

Ease it?.....Get rid of the fucking thing!....Let Gazans run Gaza.

Did you ever consider that?

The restrictions are in response to attacks on Israel and attempts to get Iranian weaponry in, not the other way round.
All concessions have always been used against Israel, because Hamas' goal is killing Jews and destroying Israel.
You seem happy with that Don.

BOLLOCKS! The way to peace is to leave them alone to sort out their own destiny.
Their destiny is the extermination of Jews and the destruction of Israel.
That is the peace they seek.
Is that what you want too Don?
Do you expect Israel to help them achieve that?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 03:12 AM

Israel wants nothing from Gaza.
It walked away from the place.
You lot clearly do not believe that, so tell us what Israel gains from being at war with Gaza.

If Hamas called off the war there would be no need for any restrictions.
There would be peace and prosperity.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 05:09 AM

Actually I agree with Miko Peled that we should be realistic and accept that Israel/Palestine is already one state.

Gaza has some autonomy within that state as does the west bank, but the ruling government is in effect the Israeli Government.

Israel won't be giving up this control, because they fear the consequences.

These are realities that have to be faced.

So what remains?

Well the question then is, do all citizens of this federal state have equal rights?

The answer is no.

It is effectively an apartheid state.

That is the reality.

This is what needs to be changed.

One state with true democracy is the answer

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 05:21 AM

"If Hamas called off the war there would be no need for any restrictions.
There would be peace and prosperity."

The war was going on for decades before Hamas.

Hamas is a symptom of the war, not the reason for it.

Keith - I strongly recommend this video

The blue clicky maker isn't working so you'll have to copy and paste the address into your browser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 05:32 AM

""IDF do not target children.
Another lie from Mr.Impartial.""

No?.........I suppose the thirteen year old killed while playing football in the street just leaned on a passing shell or bullet Hmm?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:10 AM

"One state with true democracy is the answer"

Anyone know the Israel and Palestine citizen percentage would be of such a proposed state?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:19 AM

Thanks for referencing Miko Peled Lox, looking at his blog now. Something that is too infrequently recognised (most likely because of selective MSM blackouts on pertinent news stories about such things as Jewish demonstrations against Israeli atrocities) as that there exist an increasing numbers of Jewish people from a variety of backgrounds, including religious, academic, Israeli born individuals and US born youth, who in all good conscience, can no longer support the actions of the Israeli state. People do not want to hear these voices when they declare for example, that Israel has hijacked Jewish identity, that the Zionist dream is not the dream of all Jewish people, that not all Jews blindly support the actions of the state of Israel and that many actually mobilise to protest actions they are opposed to. Polititions in particular do not want to hear these voices because the state of Israel is a useful pawn in a much larger game of chess, and has ever been so.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:27 AM

Don, tell us about the death, and tell us why you believe the child was singled out as a target.
Why would Israel target children.
Every dead child hurts Israel and helps Hamas.

Lox, there has long been violence in the region, but Israel pulled out of Gaza.
That should have been the end of it, and would have been but for Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:56 AM

Lox, I watched the video up to and including the 6 day war.
He rewrites history on the basis of a miniscule piece of research that is contradicted by libraries full of evidence to the contrary.
There was no threat to Israel from the armies massed on its borders.
Israel was not about to be invaded.

He started by saying it was not going to be a balanced presentation.
I can not argue with that.
It was just silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:24 AM

Pretending that Israel washed its hands of Gaza is utterly ridiculous. Israel controls Gaza's borders and has maintained a siege for years, controlling what goes in and out, and makes regular military incursions into the territory. Gaza is as occupied now as it was before the so-called "withdrawal". The only difference from before is that there are no Israelis living there now, the IDF having forced them to leave and trashed the settlements. And it isn't just me who thinks that, in every sense, Israel is the occupying power of the Gaza Strip:

However, the UN, Human Rights Watch and some other international bodies and NGOs have been reported to view Israel as a de facto occupying power of the Gaza Strip. Zionist NGOs and other pro-Israel entities have been reported to contest that specific view.
In his statement on the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel "in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war." In a 2009 interview on Democracy Now Christopher Gunness, spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) called Israel an occupying power. Pro-Israel pundits including Meagan Buren, Senior Adviser to the media group Israel Project, Morton A. Klein, president of the Zionist Organization of America argued, unsuccessfully, against that position. [wiki]

And I fully agree with Lox that the only solution will be a single state with Palestinians and Jews living side by side in a single state with equal rights. Two states, inevitably one rich and one poor, one fractured by settlements and one with the spoils, would be constantly at odds. We have a long way to go. In fact, we're not even in the starting blocks, not until we persuade Israel that peace is more valuable than stolen land and water.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:49 AM

Israel does not control Gaza's borders, only its own borders.
Part of Gaza's border is with Egypt and Israel has no control over that at all.

Israel has not washed its hands of Gaza because Gaza chose to make war on Israel.
Otherwise it could be as independent as it wants to be.
Just stop attacking Israel and trying to kill the inhabitants.
Too much to ask?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:09 AM

On the subject of using human shields I see that the Israeli soldiers were convicted of doing so but I was unable to find any evidence of the same happening to members of Hamas. Perhaps Lox can provide a link to help me out.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:20 AM

I never knew such a myopic individual.

Times and attitudes are changing in Israel and the number of Israeli citizens who are utterly disenchanted with the siege mentality and the politics of fear is steadily increasing.

This is a good thing as when this number reaches a critical mass, we will begin to see genuine connections being made between Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs - and Hamas will become irrelevant.

Keiths description of the crisis coming down to Hamas making peace is obviously bizarre fantasy and not really worth arguing with.

If a person can convince themselves of such an absurd proposition for such a length of time, then that alone is evidence that attempting to make sense of this issue with him is simply impossible.

useful debate and solutions are to be found with sane people.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:33 AM

Hi Bobad,

Well its good that Israel convicted these two soldiers.

Not so good that they were then effectively let off the hook with suspended sentences - not quite the hard stance the IDF claims to take.

Also a pity that other cases have resulted in no action at all.

Hamas have also used human shields and punished noone.

They have publicly admitted doing it.

So what you have is both sides doing the same thing.

In other words ...

... Neither Israel nor Hamas gets to take the Moral high ground - as your video tried to do.


Its important to bear in mind that our governments don't send billons of dollars in military aid to Hamas and they already condemn them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:34 AM

The Myopic individual comment was not aimed at Bobad

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:45 AM

That will be me then.
Hamas has been attacking Israel since well before Israel withdrew.
When Israel did withdraw, did the attacks increase or decrease Lox?

Is it my Myopia that causes me to believe Hamas' declared aim is the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews whatever Israel does?

Does that explain why the attacks get worse even when Israel makes concessions?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:05 AM

Hamas Covenant
Article 11: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. [Page 5]

Article 13: " Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question…. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters." [Page 7]

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:08 AM

I know Keith.

And I also know that Hamas is a symptom of the conflict, not the cause of it.

Removing Hamas will not change the conflict, it will merely remove one of the symptoms.

The symptoms will get worse until the problem is properly addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:22 AM

Yes, and Israel has tried and is trying to address it properly, but nothing Israel can do will stop Hamas attacking.
It exists to attack Israel and kill its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:42 AM

"Israel has tried and is trying to address it properly."

Only if you think continued expansion and brutality (the consistent approach since 1947) constitutes "properly".

Regardless of which, Israels policy, like the conflict, predates Hamas and cannot therefore be said to be a response to them.

Hamas iis the excuse given for continuing the same approach.

Many Israelis have had enough of this approach and that is our reason to be hopeful.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:45 AM

Yes, and Israel has tried and is trying to address it properly

...including the annexation of ever more Palestinian land at an accelerating pace for settlements? Is that your idea of "addressing it properly"? You know, Keith, if you refuse to see the problem then solutions are impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:46 AM

I also love the right wing oxymoronic response to Israeli left wingers.

something along the lines of "at least you have the freedom of speech to dissent - so shut up"

Followed by shaking heads and "bloody self hating Jews"

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 10:00 AM

Steve, do you want us to believe that Hamas would call off the war if Israel just.....

It exists to fight Israel whatever Israel does.
Even evicting every settler from Gaza and withdrawing every soldier and civilian made no difference except to make them fight harder.
Likewise, every easing of restrictions.
They grab with both hands and use it to get more materiel and then hit Israel even harder.

Hamas does not claim to be fighting against West Bank settlements.
It does claim to be fighting to kill Jews and destroy Israel.

Am I the fool to believe them, or you to think they are only kidding?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 10:23 AM

Gazans support Hamas because they see Hamas as being the only group who 'stands up for them'

They see Fatah and others as having given in again and again to Israeli expansion.

Hamas will lose the support of Gazans when there is nothing to 'stand up to' - when they see no need for anyone to do the 'standing up'.

Hamas without the support of Gazans will become weak and irrelevant and will ultimately be finished off not by Israelis but by Gazans.

If Israel carries on expanding, Gazans will increasingly continue to feel that a militant resistance is the only option.

Recent events are not helping.

Hamas feel more powerful than ever right now which will in turn give them a sense of legitimacy as they impose religious law in Gaza.

The solutions are clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 10:50 AM

Lots of arseholes to go around.

I seldom if ever use Fox 'News' as a source, but they scoffed the article from an Israeli news release. A link to the Israeli article is at the bottom of the Fox summation. When the Gaza/Israel rhetoric calms down, possibly people could apply some thought to preventing World War 2 1/2, because that's what's shaping up, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:08 AM

I don't agree Bruce.

I agree with Peled and Finkelstein that the whole Iran war/bomb thing, which keeps being repeated again and again by Israel over the years, is a diversion to keep peoples minds off the continuing dispossession and displacement of native arabs in Israel/palestine.

As for the Iranian ship,

If a humanitarian flotilla can't get near Gaza then there is no way that an Iranian ship full of weapons would get anywhere near and it follows that there is no way that Iran would bother to do such a pointless thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:35 AM

"If a humanitarian flotilla can't get near Gaza then there is no way that an Iranian ship full of weapons would get anywhere near and it follows that there is no way that Iran would bother to do such a pointless thing."

Do you think they're dumb enough to try to offload in Gaza?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 12:00 PM

Well Its possible that there is such a ship, but it seems unlikely to me. It would be highly vulnerable to attack/capture throughout its journey - just look at the map and count the US bases it would need to pass with its 'escort'

No Bobad, I don't think they would be dumb enough to risk their navy and throwing all those alleged weapons away.

Its a nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:06 PM

Hamas will lose the support of Gazans when there is nothing to 'stand up to'
Hamas, like Assad, Gadaffi etc. does not care if Gazans support it.
They have no voice.

They already have nothing to stand up to.
Israel will leave them alone when they stop attacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:32 PM

999, Israel, has a picture of what they say is a cargo ship being loaded in Iran and they know it is missiles and they know the missiles are destined for Gaza.

What a picture!! The satellite not only can see into crates and cargo containers, but they also can see the manifest of the ship and the intentions of the Iranians government? And as Lox has implied, the Iranians expect this ship to slip through a naval blockade when they can't even block the activity from surveillance in their own port from a hundred miles overhead.

Perhaps things are not exactly what says they are? Perhaps "reports" from the Israeli Intelligence services even second hand from an unbiased source such as Haaretz may be taken with a grain or two of salt.

I know the Israelis are constantly saying that the Iranians are that stupid. I don't believe that. I think that Israelis claims of "sponsorship" aside the Palestinians have plenty of reason to resist Israeli Zionism and have plenty or Arms dealers in the world to buy their weapons from without introducing the specter of magic weapons ships from Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:38 PM

JtS: We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:49 PM

"Israelis claims of "sponsorship""

Iran reportedly admits helping Gaza militants produce long-range missiles

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 01:53 PM

Steve, do you want us to believe that Hamas would call off the war if Israel just.....

It exists to fight Israel whatever Israel does.
Even evicting every settler from Gaza and withdrawing every soldier and civilian made no difference except to make them fight harder.
Likewise, every easing of restrictions.
They grab with both hands and use it to get more materiel and then hit Israel even harder.

Hamas does not claim to be fighting against West Bank settlements.
It does claim to be fighting to kill Jews and destroy Israel.

Am I the fool to believe them, or you to think they are only kidding?

I asked you whether you thought the accelerated theft of land for settlements was "addressing it properly". Trying to pretend that Gaza has nothing to do with the West Bank is pretty futile. Well??

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 02:04 PM

If you don't see now, you won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 02:37 PM

Welcome to the Keith A deliberate wind up show.

For those who may have been distracted by his 'response' ...

Gazans voted for Hamas because they see them as being the only party who stand up to Israel.

Thats why they say they support Hamas over the others.

They won't vote for Hamas if they don't need them to stand up to Israel.

Hamas were elected by Gazans and can be dismissed by Gazans.

These are facts not value judgements.

Keiths opinions about who does or doesn't care are meaningless.

Almost as meaningless and deluded as the view that there is nothing to stand up to.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 02:39 PM

Thank you Bobad.

Your post clarifies the unlikelihood of any Iranian cargo ships supplying arms to Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 02:45 PM

"Your post clarifies the unlikelihood of any Iranian cargo ships supplying arms to Gaza."

It actually does no such thing as there is no reason why they could not be doing both in order to hedge their bets but if you want to believe what fits your bias that's your prerogative.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 02:52 PM

Lox, did you miss the fact that Hamas has abolished democracy?
Do you not know what happened to the opposition?
Have you not been counting the elections in Gaza since they were elected?
It would not take you long.
Gaza is exactly the kind of regime the Arab Spring is all about.
These are facts, not value judgements.

Steve, you can always find an excuse for why Hamas continues with its Jew killing.
Hamas needs no excuse.
That they are Jews is enough.

You deny that Israel has made any progress in the direction you want?
Pulling out of Gaza was a big step, and might have been expected to produce a small reciprocation, leading to more concessions.

But it did not.
It led to a dramatic INCREASE in the attacks.
That is good evidence that I am right about Hamas, Hamas is being honest about itself, and you are deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 02:59 PM

Russia Today, 3 days ago.

"We have no choice but to continue to bring in weapons by all possible means," senior Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar told reporters, adding that he expected Tehran would "increase its military and financial support to Hamas."
Earlier on Wednesday, exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal thanked Shia-majority Iran for what he described as arms and funding.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 03:19 PM

There is evidence that Iran has shared Knowledge.

There is no evidence and it would be suicidal for Iran to try to send its navy to escort a cargo ship full of weapons to Gaza.

It is you who have chosen to believe that it is true despite the lack of evidence and despite the fact that it would be impossible to do.

Accusing me of Bias is a weak and cowardly way of avoiding that rationale but thankfully has no tenure for exactly that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 03:22 PM

My Bias is towards non partisan Israeli and non Israeli Jews.

The sort that are often dismissed as "self hating Jews" - itself a racist ad hominem.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 03:47 PM

My post contains powerful evidence that arms are on their way from Iran to Gaza.
Israeli intelligence is renowned, but if it is not on this ship, it is on another.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 03:58 PM

Complete arsehole.....

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 04:30 PM

Iran is helping Hamas and this is a concern, but it is not to the extent that Bruce fears could lead to ww3.

Israeli Hasbara is sadly also renowned - for making stuff up.

However, my response to Bruce that a cargo ship with an iranian naval escort is unlikely to run the gauntlet of the US navy remains the only sane one.

A bigger threat in my eyes would be a potential threat from extremists from Egypt - but this is mere speculatiuon - and it appears that Egypt played a role in brokering the current ceasefire.

The previous ceasefire was of course being enforced by Jabari, who was assassinated by the IDF for his trouble - according to Gershon Baskin and Haaretz anyway though I suppose they too are self hating Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 04:44 PM

"Jabari, who was assassinated by the IDF for his trouble"

The Jew killer got what he deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 05:24 PM

The previous ceasefire was of course being enforced by Jabari, who was assassinated by the IDF for his trouble - according to Gershon Baskin and Haaretz anyway though I suppose they too are self hating Jews.
He was shite at enforcing the ceasefire then, unless he only wanted a pause to rearm and renew the attack with even greater power, which was what happened.

He was also responsible for the inhuman incarceration of poor Shalit all those years, until he was exchanged for over a thousand Palestinian fighters.
The naive dupe Bashkin thought that Jabari offered some hope for peace, even though he hated Jews so badly he could never even talk to him, but even Bashkin admitted,

"Mr. Jabari was not a man of peace; he didn't believe in peace with Israel and refused to have any direct contact with Israeli leaders and even nonofficials like me. My indirect dealings with Mr. Jabari were handled through my Hamas counterpart, Ghazi Hamad, the deputy foreign minister of Hamas, who had received Mr. Jabari's authorization to deal directly with me. Since Mr. Jabari took over the military wing of Hamas, the only Israeli who spoke with him directly was Mr. Shalit, who was escorted out of Gaza by Mr. Jabari himself. (It is important to recall that Mr. Jabari not only abducted Mr. Shalit, but he also kept him alive and ensured that he was cared for during his captivity.) "

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 05:44 PM

Sorry, But Israeli sources including Baskin, who was, unlike Keith, right at the centre of things, not to mention Haaretz's military correspondent, amongst others, describe Jabari as being "Israel's Enforcer" In Gaza.

We must of course rely on Israeli sources as all Arabs are obviously Liars - hence the malice and vengefulness in Bobads last post. (not qualities you would expect to find in somebody who is genuinely looking for a peaceful solution.

But I Guess Israelis whose evidence doesn't follow the party line are 'Self Hating Jews' so their testimony doesn't count either.

As for Shalit, it is true that he should not have been imprisoned without charge or fair trial. Just like the hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians, many mere teenagers, and even an international football player who have been and who are beeiing held without charge in Israeli prisons.

My information as always comes from Israelis since, as we all know, Arab testimony is always poisoned with anti semitism - though of course we should treat these particular Israelis with skepticism due to their 'self hate' - and besides at least they have freedom of speech which means that what they have to say doesn't caount and they should shut up and know their place.

Right?

No.

Evidence is evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 05:54 PM

""Don, tell us about the death, and tell us why you believe the child was singled out as a target.
Why would Israel target children.
Every dead child hurts Israel and helps Hamas.""

Well, the child was playing football in the street when he was killed either by artillery, or by infantry gunfire.

He was not being used as a shield by rocket firing militants.

So, either he was targetted and shot by an Israeli who could clearly see him and knew exactly what he was killing, or he was killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives.

But you Keith, are constantly telling us that the IDF don't do either.

It would appear that you are totally wrong.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:00 PM

Hey Bobad,

Would it be better if Gaza was crushed once and for all?

Those Jew hating scum could really be taught a lesson then couldn't they.

Do you agree with Sharon's son that a 'Hiroshima' would put an end to it properly?

That'd teach them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:06 PM

PS - oops - keith didn't read his own post ...

From Gershon Baskin (as quoted by Keith)

"(It is important to recall that Mr. Jabari not only abducted Mr. Shalit, but he also kept him alive and ensured that he was cared for during his captivity.)"

Tut tut - I see why he needed to be killed now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:15 PM

""Part of Gaza's border is with Egypt and Israel has no control over that at all.""

OK, let's dispose of this piece of lying crap.

Israel, not Egypt, built the fence between Gaza and Egypt, and Israel, not Egypt decided on the number and location of crossing points.

They didn't build the fence to keep the Egyptians OUT! It was and is intended to keep Gazan Palestinians in. When Palestinians breached the border thousands of them entered Egypt to buy, not weapons, but food, clothing and household goods.

Look at Lox's link and read for yourself, or Google Gaza strip fence.

It's all there and it isn't corroborating the nonsense being advanced on this thread by Israeli government and IDF supporters.

I don't suppose for one minute that the Israeli man-in-the-strreet is allowed to know any real detail of what is being done in his name, because if he did, the government wouldn't survive a week.

That link is an epose of actions in Gaza over the last twelve years, and the overriding impression is that the writer is not reporting on the crimes of single soldiers or small groups. It is obvious that the treatment of Palestinians is an organised and government sanctioned policy.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:17 PM

Well Lox, the Hamas and the Muslim neighbours of Israel in the middle east are certainly not shy about about their desire to see Israel and the Jews eradicated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu6Ond1ESq8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=aLKkhRMi4fQ&feature=endscreen&bpctr=1354146360

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:30 PM

Lox, I know bobad personally. THAT would never be any part of his view, EVER.

Someone earlier said that Israel's intelligence (as in photo satellite reconnaissance) regarding the loading of missiles in Iran which are likely destined for Gaza was BS, ostensibly because it doesn't fit his views) is fabricated. I doubt that because the missiles are getting to Gaza, unless we intend to think the missiles and the 1500 strikes in the past year are a fabrication.

The weapons will be off-loaded and 'smuggled' into Gaza as the previous missiles were. Anyone with Google maps can easily see that bringing them in by boat is a no-go. Gaza shares one border with a country that is not Israel. Because I doubt the weapons are entering through Israel from neighbours to the east--Israeli security being tighter than a frog's arse, and that's water tight--possibly the Egypt/Gaza border is the place.

Sudan is a manifest destination, but not an end-user of the short range rockets. The ballistic missiles do however present a problem, and they are what y'all should be considering. Not narrow views regarding Israel and Gaza. Hamas is trying. So is Israel, but none of you ever met an honest politician whom you didn't think was one in a million. Between Hamas and the Likud, you still haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:45 PM

I'm posting the following again, since Keith and Bobad either didn't bother to read it, or more likely didn't have the ghost of a chance of justifying it. Safer to say nothing, eh Guys?

It goes to the heart of my comment re government approved and sanctioned policy.

""Shoot to Kill

Unit: Engineering Corps

Location: Rafah

Year: 2006

During the operations in Gaza, anyone walking around in the street, you shoot at the torso. In one operation in the Philadelphi corridor, anyone walking around at night, you shoot at the torso.

How often were the operations?

Daily. In the Philadelphi corridor, every day.

When you're searching for tunnels, how do people manage to get around -- I mean, they live in the area.

It's like this: You bring one force up to the third or fourth floor of a building. Another group does the search below. They know that while they're doing the search there'll be people trying to attack them. So they put the force up high, so they can shoot at anyone down in the street.

How much shooting was there?

Endless.

Say I'm there, I'm up on the third floor. I shoot at anyone I see?

Yes.

But it's in Gaza, it's a street, it's the most crowded place in the world.

No, no, I'm talking about the Philadelphi corridor.

So that's a rural area?

Not exactly, there's a road, it's like the suburbs, not the center. During operations in the other Gaza neighborhoods it's the same thing. Shooting, during night operations -- shooting.

It there any kind of announcement telling people to stay indoors?

No.

They actually shot people?

They shot anyone walking around in the street. It always ended with, "We killed six terrorists today." Whoever you shot in the street is "a terrorist."

That's what they say at the briefings?

The goal is to kill terrorists.

What are the rules of engagement?

Whoever's walking around at night, shoot to kill.

During the day, too?

They talked about that in the briefings: whoever's walking around during the day, look for something suspicious. But something suspicious could be a cane.""

Doesn't sound like a couple of rogue soldiers, does it?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:50 PM

N.B.

No mention of people with weapons! Just anybody walking in the street.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM

That's the problem with weapons. They have people attached to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:04 PM

I apologise for the length of this cut 'n paste, but it is one story outlining the IDF's true commitment to avoiding civilian casualties.

Elimination Operation

Unit: Special Forces

Location: Gaza Strip

Year: 2000

There was a period at the beginning of the Intifada where they assassinated people using helicopter missiles.

This was at the beginning of the Second Intifada?

Yes. But it was a huge mess because there were mistakes and other people were killed, so they told us we were now going to be doing a ground elimination operation.

Is that the terminology they used? "Ground elimination operation"?

I don't remember. But we knew it was going to be the first one of the Intifada. That was very important for the commanders and we started to train for it. The plan was to catch a terrorist on his way to Rafah, trap him in the middle of the road, and eliminate him.

Not to arrest him?

No, direct elimination. Targeted. But that operation was canceled, and then a few days later they told us that we're going on an arrest operation. I remember the disappointment. We were going to arrest the guy instead of doing something groundbreaking, changing the terms. So the operation was planned...

Anyway, we're waiting inside the APC [armored personnel carrier], there are Shin Bet agents with us, and we can hear the updates from intelligence. It was amazing, like, "He's sitting in his house drinking coffee, he's going downstairs, saying hi to the neighbor" -- stuff like that. "He's going back up, coming down again, saying this and that, opening the trunk now, picking up a friend" -- really detailed stuff. He didn't drive, someone else drove, and they told us his weapon was in the trunk. So we knew he didn't have the weapon with him in the car, which would make the arrest easier. At least it relieved my stress, because I knew that if he ran to get the weapon, they'd shoot at him.

Where did the Shin Bet agent sit?

With me. In the APC. We were in contact with command and they told us he'd arrive in another five minutes, four minutes, one minute. And then there was a change in the orders, apparently from the brigade commander: elimination operation. A minute ahead of time. They hadn't prepared us for that. A minute to go and it's an elimination operation.

Why do you say "apparently from the brigade commander"?

I think it was the brigade commander. Looking back, the whole thing seems like a political ploy by the commander, trying to get bonus points for doing the first elimination operation, and the brigade commander trying, too. . . everyone wanted it, everyone was hot for it. The car arrives, and it's not according to plan: their car stops here, and there's another car in front of it, here. From what I remember, we had to shoot, he was three meters away. We had to shoot. After they stopped the cars, I fired through the scope and the gunfire made an insane amount of noise, just crazy. And then the car, the moment we started shooting, started speeding in this direction.

The car in front?

No, the terrorist's car -- apparently when they shot the driver his leg was stuck on the gas, and they started flying. The gunfire increased, and the commander next to me is yelling "Stop, stop, hold your fire," but they don't stop shooting. Our guys get out and start running, away from the jeep and the armored truck, shoot a few rounds, and then go back. Insane bullets flying around for a few minutes. "Stop, stop, hold your fire," and then they stop. They fired dozens if not hundreds of bullets into the car in front.

Are you saying this because you checked afterward?

Because we carried out the bodies. There were three people in that car. Nothing happened to the person in the back. He got out, looked around like this, put his hands in the air. But the two bodies in the front were hacked to pieces...

Afterward, I counted how many bullets I had left -- I'd shot ten bullets. The whole thing was terrifying -- more and more and more noise. It all took about a second and a half. And then they took out the bodies, carried the bodies. We went to a debriefing. I'll never forget when they brought the bodies out at the base. We were standing two meters away in a semicircle, the bodies were covered in flies, and we had the debriefing. It was, "Great job, a success. Someone shot the wrong car, and we'll talk about the rest back on the base." I was in total shock from all the bullets, from the crazy noise. We saw it on the video, it was all documented on video for the debriefing. I saw all the things that I told you, the people running, the minute of gunfire, I don't know if it's twenty seconds or a minute, but it was hundreds of bullets and it was clear that the people had been killed, but the gunfire went on and the soldiers were running from the armored truck. What I saw was a bunch of bloodthirsty guys firing an insane amount of bullets, and at the wrong car, too. The video was just awful, and then the unit commander got up. I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot from him.

What do you mean?

That he'll be a regional commanding officer or the chief of staff one day. He said, "The operation wasn't carried out perfectly, but the mission was accomplished, and we got calls from the chief of staff, the defense minister, the prime minister" -- everyone was happy, it's good for the unit, and the operation was like, you know, just: "Great job." The debriefing was just a cover-up.

Meaning?

Meaning no one stopped to say, "Three innocent people died." Maybe with the driver there was no other way, but who were the others?

Who were they, in fact?

At that time I had a friend training with the Shin Bet, he told me about the jokes going around that the terrorist was a nobody. He'd probably taken part in some shooting and the other two had nothing to do with anything. What shocked me was that the day after the operation, the newspapers said that "a secret unit killed four terrorists," and there was a whole story on each one, where he came from, who he'd been involved with, the operations he'd done. But I know that on the Shin Bet base they're joking about how we killed a nobody and the other two weren't even connected, and at the debriefing itself they didn't even mention it.

Who did the debriefing?

The unit commander. The first thing I expected to hear was that something bad happened, that we did the operation to eliminate one person and ended up eliminating four. I expected that he'd say, "I want to know who shot at the first car. I want to know why A-B-C ran to join in the big bullet-fest." But that didn't happen, and I understood that they just didn't care. These people do what they do. They don't care.

Did the guys talk about it?

Yes. There were two I could talk to. One of them was really shocked but it didn't stop him. It didn't stop me, either. It was only after I came out of the army that I understood. No, even when I was in the army I understood that something really bad had happened. But the Shin Bet agents were as happy as kids at a summer camp.

What does that mean?

They were high-fiving and hugging. Really pleased with themselves. They didn't join in the debriefing, it was of no interest to them. But what was the politics of the operation? How come my commanders, not one of them, admitted that the operation had failed? And failed so badly with the shooting all over the place that the guys sitting in the truck got hit with shrapnel from the bullets. It's a miracle we didn't kill each other.

Needs no further comment from me.
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:10 PM

""That's the problem with weapons. They have people attached to them.""

But it would seem that the weapons in this case are irrelevant. It is sufficient that the people are Palestians.

A plumber carrying a short length of pipe, or a man carrying a cane, may well find that he becomes a statistic ("well it looked like a gun to us, so we shot him. What can I tell you? Shit happens!")

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:13 PM

At least Mike had the good grace to read the whole lot, and to change his stance as a result of what he read.

Good for Mike! Now we need a lot of others to wake up and smell the stink.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:22 PM

The stink is not too hard to miss - it is all over this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:27 PM

And that Bobad is presumably your justification for wanting to nuke Gaza.

Well I'm glad we've clarified that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:28 PM

"It goes to the heart of my comment re government approved and sanctioned policy."

That's true, Don, as to do with Israel under its present government, but it implies that Hamas has no government approved policy. And it begs the question: Is Hamas a government? And if it is, why can it not control rocket attacks? And really, if Israel was the Nazi-type regime some have made it out to be, do you really think Gaza would still exist or ever have existed at all?

Recall England when it had a large influx of Polish workers and the hatred/racism/protectionism that was spewed by some political parties and organizations. Do you think Israelis feel differently?

How's about a half million Israelis move into Gaza and set up shop? Would that end the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:33 PM

"And that Bobad is presumably your justification for wanting to nuke Gaza.

Well I'm glad we've clarified that."

Just as I was beginning to think you're alright albeit you see things differently than do I you revert back to being the asshole I thought you to be - ah well, such is life.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:38 PM

Lox: Removing Hamas will not change the conflict, it will merely remove one of the symptoms.

The symptoms will get worse until the problem is properly addressed.

Keith: Yes, and Israel has tried and is trying to address it properly

For the third time, Keith. Stop ducking and give us a straight answer. I asked you whether you thought the accelerated theft of land for settlements was "addressing it properly". Now don't start insulting our intelligence by thinking we won't notice if you try yet again to circumvent. Would you like me to rephrase the question? Is it OK for Israel to continue to build settlements on Palestinian land in the face of almost universal international condemnation and in the face of what nearly everyone I talk to regards as a breach of common decency, fairness and humanity? Keith?? Or do you think that it's OK for the settlements to continue to be built because those damned Palestinians are so naughty that they deserve the collective punishment of having their best land stolen? Keith???

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:42 PM

Sorry Bruce,

I asked Bobad what he thought of Sharons sons comments about nuking Gaza, and his response is to say "well Hamas wants to nuke Israel" ...

As if to say - why not?

Only that Israel has nuclear weapons ... and Sharon's son is no fringe lunatic ...

The missiles from Gaza need to be stopped and the supply of technology from Iran and Hamas' links to Iran are undisputed.

But the idea that Iranian ships or other supply sources will be supplying Gaza with massive amounts of firepower on a WW3 causing scale is not supportable at all.

The weapons brought into Gaza are done so covertly and in small bits and pieces.

Unfortunately Bobad seems to think this is some kind of point scoring competition and is unable to acknowledge that assessment.

He talks of stink, but revels in the blood of the dead whom he despises.

Whose stink? My friend Miko Peled from wwhom I get a lot of my information? the organization Jews for Palestine? Norman Finkelstein? Max Blumenthal? or is it the stink of Arabs?

Who knows ... I guess he has a chance to set the record straight now ... but judging by current form, we're more likely to see a video or article about Hamas, or Iran, or other evidence of Arab hatred for Israel, ultimately serving as a justification for killing arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:49 PM

"Jabari, who was assassinated by the IDF for his trouble"

The Jew killer got what he deserved.

Jabari was assassinated extra-judicially. That's a polite way of saying that he was murdered. I take it that you think that's OK. The way you want things in your country. Maybe you think lynch mobs are OK too. Also, I take it that, after 9-11, you went on some forum somewhere and declared that those Muslim-killing yanks got what they deserved, eh? After all, just like those stoopid Palestinians voted for Hamas, those yanks voted for Bush. Maybe we should just kill people not on the basis of what they do but on the basis of what we think they hate. Only trying to suggest a little more balance in your posts, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:53 PM

""That's true, Don, as to do with Israel under its present government, but it implies that Hamas has no government approved policy.""

No. With respect Bruce, it doesn't.

I, along with all the more open minded posters to this thread, have been asked to accept that Hamas is an evil entity with no credibility, which has seized power by dubious means and is engaging in victimising poor little lily white, butter wouldn't melt, Israel.

I know full well that Hamas is a thinly veiled terrorist organisation, and have repeatedly said so and expressed my abhorrence of their methods.

I have also, I believe, demonstrated that the squeaky clean Israel portrayed with such fervour by Keith and Bobad doesn't exist either, and that Israel is doing some very dirty deeds of its own.

Both pot and kettle are darkest deepest black, and no solution is possible until that is fully realised and addressed.

Israel has long since worn out the victim status used against any who campaign for more moderate attitudes.

The fact that Keith swamps every thread with multiple repeats of the same weary, discredited by both Israeli and Arab observers, liturgical mantras, does not change their untruthful nature.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:55 PM

"Jabari was assassinated extra-judicially"

Jabari assasinated extra-judicially but since it was Jews he was killing I guess that doesn't earn your opprobrium.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 07:56 PM

You wouldn't have thought that Ben Affleck had it in him,

But he made this very astute point about popular culture in America accepting the narrative that Arabs are not to be trusted.

He's not an arab - he's ok ...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:12 PM

"Jabari assasinated extra-judicially but since it was Jews he was killing I guess that doesn't earn your opprobrium."

Here we go.

Bobad closes his eyes and ears and ignores all the condemnation of Hamas that I have written in this thread, because it is easier for him to lie about his debating opponents than to acknowledge that Israel has done something wrong.

I remember this tactic.

The world has changed since this type of smearing was effective though - it is easy to spot and it has no tenure.

Justifying murder, justifying nuclear threats, and now rather than clarifying that he does not support these things, he changes tack and starts to smear his debating opponents.

Jabari was not a nice man - but he was, according to Israeli sources, Israels enforcer in Gaza and as such was part of the key to peace and he was the guy who ensured Shalit was looked after properly.

By killing him, just before an election and just before the UN vote on whether to allow palestine member status, Netanyahu showed contempt for peace.

And by stating (he thought in private) that he can do what he wants because he has America in his pocket, he compounded that contempt.

Killing Jabari released a salvo of rockets that otherwise would not have been fired, killing 6 Israelis, 4 of whom were civilians.

And it allowed Israel an excuse to kill another 156 Palestinians, 30 of whom were children.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:24 PM



Do continue to shower indignity after indignity on yourself. I take it that you are smearing me with that tedious old antisemitism card. Well, I'll be kind to you and put it down to a severe failure of your imagination. I remind you that, unlike yourself, on more than one occasion on this thread I've expressed horror over the torment that ordinary Israelis are going through courtesy of their inept, hubris-fuelled government. You'll never read any vitriol from me directed at ordinary Israelis, nor the state of Israel in general. Never. And I must have posted hundreds of posts about this over the years. It just isn't me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:26 PM

That gap at the top of my post was supposed to contain this quote:

Jabari assasinated extra-judicially but since it was Jews he was killing I guess that doesn't earn your opprobrium

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:48 PM

"The Jew killer got what he deserved."

The problem with this comment is that it distinguishes the murder of Jews from the murder of others.

I Guess the IDF aren't Jew Killers.

And killing Arabs doesn't matter so much.

Care to correct that? or is being a "Jew Killer" worse than merely being a killer?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 08:58 PM

All that aside, the problem still remains. We may all yell at each other, but as long as Israel responds to missiles the difficulty will not be resolved. Iran is presently shipping missiles, period. I expect they will be detonated near Sudan, courtesy of the IDF. Check that within the coming week or so. Call it what you want, but in no way will Israel allow ballistic missiles--and they saw them being loaded to a ship in Iran--to exist in either the Sudan or any other country that can range their country. I don't really care which side of the issue you are on. Yanks might recall the CMC of 1962.

Weak thinkers may feel Israel is wrong, and that's cool by me. But, those thinkers are foolish to abrogate one reality for another reality.

The problem is NOT Hamas and Israel. It is other countries that make money from this crisis, and to think otherwise is not too smart, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:14 PM

Fuck off Lox, go play your little semantic games with someone else, I'm not interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 09:17 PM

Call it what you want, but in no way will Israel allow ballistic missiles--and they saw them being loaded to a ship in Iran--to exist in either the Sudan or any other country that can range their country.

Yet Gaza has no option but to allow ballistic missiles (and nuclear warheads, come to think of it) to exist right next door to them. Come off it, mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 10:15 PM

Its a pity Bobad.

I take it from your response that you have no further rationale to share.

You accused me of Bias, but your engagement with me has been wholly one sided right up until the point where you had a tantrum.

Conversely, you will find that I did acknowledge Irans role in assisting Hamas, I did acknowledge and condemned Hamas' treatment of alleged collaborators, and I acknowledged and condemned Hamas' use of Human shields.

No such acknowledgement or condemnation from you of Israels counter cowardice - not even of Sharons sons nuclear solution.

If you aren't prepared to acknowledge Israels part in this, or to explain misunderstandings that your words have implied, then you'll just have to live with the obvious conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:32 PM

Steve, indeed Israel has nukes. However, Gaza has missiles. I do not deny Israel's part in this, but you seem to suggest that Gaza HAS no part in this while at the same time saying it's innocent of anything and everything. I am amazed at your thinking. I think you should be too.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 11:56 PM

Lox,

I like Bobad well enough but he seems to have blinkers on when it comes to Israel. Five or six years ago there were a lot more people out there willing to engage in pretzel logic to defend Israel's attempts at ethnic cleansing. I am glad that they are now becoming a more and more silent minority.

The Jewish Zionist Theocracy of Israel is more and more going the way of apartheid South Africa. For me, I say, the sooner, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 02:49 AM

""Part of Gaza's border is with Egypt and Israel has no control over that at all.""

OK, let's dispose of this piece of lying crap.

Still waiting Don.
The crossing into Egypt is on the Egyptian border under control of Egyptians who take their orders from the Egyptian government.
Israel has no say in what goes on there.

Don, IDF does not target civilians.
There was but one death for about every thirteen strikes in Pillar, and only about half were civilians.
Apart from humanitarian concerns, every civilian death is a propaganda victory for Hamas and wins them more support and help.
That is why they even exaggerate the deaths there are with fake pictures.

Lox, I did read my own post. Jabari held his nose and kept Shalit alive all those years because he was worth more alive.
Over a thousand fighters released.
Spare one Jew for a chance to kill many more.

Even your man was clear that Jabari did not seek peace with Israel.
His long term goal was its destruction.
Obviously, because he was senior Hamas and that is Hamas' goal.
They really are not kidding you saps.

Steve, whatever Israel does, Hamas is going to fight it.
Israel has made big concessions and it just encourages them to fight harder.
You are being a naive dupe to think otherwise.
The evidence is there for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 03:46 AM

Don,
I don't suppose for one minute that the Israeli man-in-the-strreet is allowed to know any real detail of what is being done in his name, because if he did, the government wouldn't survive a week.

Israel has a free press and media, unlike its neighbours.
It is not the monster you imagine it to be.

Jabari was a fighter and senior official of a terrorist organisation (recognised as such by most countries) operating against Israel beyond its judicial reach.
To target such a fighter is not murder but a legitimate military operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 03:59 AM

Just catching up on all your postings after I went to bed!

Among the 1,027 prisoners released for Shalit are about 280 prisoners serving life sentences for planning and perpetrating terror attacks[4] including:

Walid Abd al-Aziz Abd al-Hadi Anajas (36 life sentences) – took part in the execution of the Café Moment bombing (2002), the Hebrew University bombing (2002) and the Rishon LeZion bombing (2002).[43]
Nasir Sami Abd al-Razzaq Ali al-Nasser Yataima (29 life sentences) – convicted of planning the Passover massacre (2002) in which 30 civilians were killed and 140 were wounded.[43]
Maedh Waal Taleb Abu Sharakh (19 life sentences), Majdi Muhammad Ahmed Amr (19 life sentences) and Fadi Muhammad Ibrahim al-Jaaba[43] (18 life sentences) – responsible for the attack on bus No. 37 in Haifa in 2002.
Tamimi Aref Ahmad Ahlam (16 life sentences) – Assisted in the execution of the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing (2001).[43][44]
Abd al-Hadi Rafa Ghanim (16 life sentences) – the surviving perpetrator of the Tel Aviv Jerusalem bus 405 suicide attack in which Ghneim seized the steering wheel of a crowded Egged commuter bus line No. 405 and managed to pull the bus into a ravine in the area of Qiryat Ye'arim. 16 civilians were killed in the attack.[45]
Muhammad Waal Muhammad Douglas (15 life sentences) – took part in the execution of the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing in Jerusalem (2001).[46]
Muhammad Taher Mahmud al-Qaram (15 life sentences) – directly involved in the planning and execution of a bus attack in Haifa in which 15 Israelis were killed.[16]
Ahmed Mustafa Saleh Hamed al-Najar (7 life sentences) – led a militant squad that killed 3 Israelis in shooting attacks.[43]
Yihia Ibrahim Hasan Al-Sinwar (4 life sentences) – took part in the kidnapping of Nachshon Wachsman who was later killed by Hamas during a failed rescue attempt by an IDF unit. Founder of the Hamas security apparatus in Gaza. His brother organized the abduction of Gilad Shalit in 2006.[45]
Abd-Al-Aziz Muhammad Amar (4 life sentences) – took part in the execution of the Café Hillel bombing (2003).[47]
Ibrahim Sulaim Mahmud Shammasina (3 life sentences) – took part in the killing of the boys Ronen Kramni and Lior Tuboul, the taxi driver Rafi Doron and the soldier Yehushua Friedberg.
Amir Sa'ud Salih Abu Sarhan (3 life sentences) – killed three Israelis with a knife in 1990.[16]
Mahmud Muhammad Ahmed Atwan (3 life sentences), Musa Daud Muhammad Akari (3 life sentences) and Majid Hassan Rajab Abu Qatish (3 life sentences) – militants that killed the Israeli policeman Nissim Toledano in 1992.[48]
Muhammad Yussuf Hassan al-Sharatha (3 life sentences) – head of the militant squad that kidnapped and killed the Israeli soldiers Ilan Saadon and Avi Sasportas during the first intifada.[45]
Abd al-Aziz Yussuf Mustafa Salehi (1 life sentence) – participant in the 2000 Ramallah lynching who was iconically photographed displaying his blood-stained hands to the Palestinian mob after having beaten an Israeli soldier to death.[43]
Bassam Ibrahim Abd al-Qader Abu Asneina (1 life sentence) and Riyadh Zakariya Khalil Asayla (1 life sentences) – Killed the yeshiva student Chaim Kerman.[46]
Fahed Sabri Barhan al-Shaludi (1 life sentence) – took part in the kidnapping and killing of the Israeli soldier Yaron Chen.[46]
Fuad Muhammad Abdulhadi Amrin (1 life sentence) – killed 15-year-old Israeli schoolgirl Helena Rapp in 1992.[49]
Jihad Muhammad Shaker Yaghmur (1 life sentence) – took part in the killing of Nachshon Waxman.[45]
Mona Jaud Awana (1 life sentence) – lured over the Internet the 16-year-old Israeli high school student Ofir Rahum, pretending to be a young American tourist, managed to drive him to a remote area in the outskirts of Ramallah where three Palestinian gunmen showed up and shot Rahum at close range.[44]
Muhammad Abdul-Rahman Muhammad Zakut (1 life sentence) – Tel Aviv construction worker who stabbed three Israelis, killing two, on the holiday of Purim, 21 March 1989.[50][51]
Tarek Ahmed Abd al-Karim Hasayin (1 life sentence) – carried out the shooting attack on Highway 6 in June 2003, in which the 7-year-old girl Noam Leibowitz was killed.[46]
Yussuf Dhib Hamed Abu Aadi (1 life sentence) – Convicted of stabbing Israeli soldier Nir Kahana in 2005.[52]
Sh'hadeh Muhammad Hussein Sana'a (1 life sentence) – participated in the King George Street bombing by leading the suicide bomber to his destination.[53]
Abdallah Nasser Mahmud Arar (1 life sentence) – Member of the Hamas cell responsible for kidnapping and killing Israeli businessman Sasson Nuriel in 2005.[54][55]
Ahmed Jibril Othman al-Takruri (1 life sentence) – Carried out firebomb attack on a bus in Jericho, in which a mother and her three children, and a soldier who tried to rescue them, were killed.
Alaa al-Din Radha al-Bazyan (1 life sentence) – Convicted of perpetrating sniper attacks and belonging to a terrorist group.[56]
Ali Muhammad Ali al-Qadhi (1 life sentence) – Member of a Hamas cell responsible for kidnapping and killing Israeli businessman Sasson Nuriel in 2005.[54][55]
[edit] Second phase

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:23 AM

STRATFOR ( a global intelligence company founded in 1996 in Austin, Texas)has learned that while there are deeply buried manufacturing sites in Gaza for Qassam-type short-range rockets, the Fajr-5s are not locally produced. The Fajr-5 rockets which Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been launching toward Tel Aviv and Jerusalem most likely were smuggled from Sudan through the Sinai Peninsula. Iranian manufacturers have been suspected of setting up manufacturing facilities in Sudan for some time, hence the presumed Israeli airstrike on the Yarmouk weapons facility in Sudan on the 23rd October. Given their large size, the Fajr-5s are typically smuggled one at a time and in separate parts. Taking lessons from Hezbollah's preparations in the Second Lebanon War in 2006, Hamas relies on an extensive underground tunnel system to assemble the rockets and according to a STRATFOR source Iran has trained several Palestinian technicians on how to assemble the Fajr-5s. In addition it is most likely that there are a few of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps' Quds Force operatives in Gaza for precisely this purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:37 AM

Afterwards he (Jabari) told an Arab journalist that the released prisoners were responsible for the deaths of 569 Israelis. But he was said to have tried to restrain radicals who wanted to fire rockets at Israel, and he may have been a moderating force in the last years of his life. Israeli peace campaigner Gershon Baskin said he was: "In line to die, not an angel and not a righteous man of peace."

(and yes Lox, I read all of this post too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 04:56 AM

Well call it what you want - its getting heated in here and I'm going to remove my fuel from the fire.

Have fun folks

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:05 AM

Would you please, Keith, also supply a long list of those hundreds of Palestinian prisoners who are held without charge or trial, some for years, in "administrative detention" in Israeli prisons? And, while you're at it, do you think it's "addressing the problem properly" to continue to steal the best Palestinian land for your settlements at an accelerating rate? Now come on, Keith. Straight answer! Set a trend! Be the first Israel apologist to give an honest opinion about the morality of the settlements (and don't forget to tell us what you think ought to be done with them)! And, while you're at it, just contemplate for a minute the massive part in the conflict that the settlements represent. You'd fit very well in Israel, Keith. Wanting land and water more than wanting peace. Unless you tell us different, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:09 AM

Lox, I do not think you should walk away from this.

And killing Arabs doesn't matter so much.

Care to correct that? or is being a "Jew Killer" worse than merely being a killer?

No wonder Bobad wad incensed.
Killing people just because of their race is an appalling crime.
IDF does not carry out indiscriminate murder of Arabs.
Jabari did, and Hamas does, carry out indiscriminate murder of Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:14 AM

Israel has made big concessions and it just encourages them to fight harder.
You are being a naive dupe to think otherwise.

What big concessions? Has the wall gone yet? Road blocks? Have they made non-Jewish Israeli people equal? Demolished a single West Bank settlement? Promised not to build any more? Oh, wait a minute, I think you're referring to their "beneficence" in "returning" Gaza and then turning it into an open prison! Actually, that was no concession at all, just an acknowledgement that the Gaza game wasn't worth the Gaza candle. And before you reply, do you think that, overall, their "concessions" outweigh what they are continuing to steal?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:20 AM

Steve,
Israel has made some serious concessions, but of course there is more they could do.
However, we have seen that concessions make no difference to Hamas except to increase there will to kill more Jews, so it is not an issue.

I would be happy to express my views yet again on yet another discussion of the wider Middle East situation, but it is a vast can of worms and a complex and intractable issue.

The issue of Gaza is much more clear cut, and I would like us to finish with that first.
(I am sure that is why you want to get away from it. The simple, clear cut issue is that Hamas is the aggressor and all this would stop if they stopped.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:44 AM

Steve, indeed Israel has nukes. However, Gaza has missiles. I do not deny Israel's part in this, but you seem to suggest that Gaza HAS no part in this while at the same time saying it's innocent of anything and everything. I am amazed at your thinking. I think you should be too.

I'm amazed you can even think of saying that. I think that firing rockets into civilian areas is wrong. I think that Hamas is wrong-headed in continuing to pronounce against the existence of the state of Israel. Idiotic, in fact, because it's the very first thing that western Islamophobes leap on. Never in my life have I said that "Gaza" is innocent of anything and everything (I prefer to say Hamas, actually - we should be careful who we blame. Note how I've always defended the ordinary people of Israel, in the same way that I can't blame the people of Gaza for the conflict just because they democratically elected Hamas). But Gaza is a minnow and Israel is the next-door Goliath. Gaza can't threaten Israel with sophisticated ballistic missiles or nukes, or stop things from crossing into Israel. Gaza doesn't get three billion per annum in military aid. Just smuggled rocket parts. To make rockets that you just lob, not ones you're able to aim with much degree of accuracy. Nearly every rocket they fire lands harmlessly (in the physical sense at least) without causing death or damage. In ten years of rocketing, fewer than 20 Israelis have been killed by rockets. The IDF can manage 20 Palestinians in a few minutes on a good day. Just think. If Gaza had real weapons and we had a real war we wouldn't be calling them terrorists, would we. I should like you to consider the alternatives for the beleaguered Palestinians. Every round of diplomacy in recent years has been a sham led by a complicit US and a dishonest Israeli administration, who will never put a single meaningful thing on the table for the Palestinians. In fact, they continue to steal even as they talk. Land and water is far more important to Mr Netanyahu et al. than peace, and always will be until the US makes its support for Israel conditional. So what should the Gazans do? Roll over? Turn the other cheek? Go on, Bruce, give them some advice as to how to put up resistance using only means that will have us all nodding with approval (and don't forget that talking doesn't work). When I say I try to understand what Hamas are thinking of when they fire rockets, that's what I mean. I'm not justifying anything. Hamas's rockets stink and the world would be a better place without them. OK, your turn. Give the Gazan people, all the Palestinians in fact, a lesson in west-approved resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:55 AM

The issues of Gaza and the rest of Palestine are inextricably mixed up. Trying to tease out and compartmentalise Gaza because you think it's simpler to make your case won't cut any ice with me. The Gazans are treated badly by Israel and the West Bank Palestinians are treated badly by Israel. If the Palestinians get statehood both those factions will be included. They are in it together. The running sores are the same for both. One of the biggest running sores is the continuing appropriation of Palestinian land, the best land, for Israeli settlements. Do you think that continuing to annexe this land at an ever-increasing rate is "dealing with the matter properly?" Do you think we can solve anything while that is going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:55 AM

"supply a long list of those hundreds of Palestinian prisoners who are held without charge or trial"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/26/israel-palestinian-children-injustice
http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/07/qa-israels-heavy-handed-abuse-of-palestinian-children-is-unacceptable/
http://www.dci-palestine.org/documents/children-military-custody-%E2%80%93-new-report-leading-uk-lawyers
http://rt.com/news/israel-tortures-palestinian-children-report-002/

Minors
In 2000–2009, 6,700 Palestinians between the ages of 12 and 18 were arrested by the Israeli authorities, according to Defence for Children International's Palestine Section (DCI/PS). In 2009, a total of 423 were being held in Israeli detention and interrogation centers and prisons. In April 2010 the number dropped to 280. DCI/PS states that these detentions stand in contravention of international law.[12]
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/arrests-of-palestinian-children-a-boy-in-leg-irons-is-becoming-a-big-story-in-uk.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 06:56 AM

So what should the Gazans do? Roll over? Turn the other cheek?

Nothing is being done to the Gazans except strikes against their rocket sites.
There is no need for them to fight.
Hamas needs no reason but that Israel exists and is full of Jews.

All the issues elsewhere are irrelevant to Hamas.
You kid yourself that Hamas hits Israel because of them.
If Israel withdrew from West Bank, tore down the wall, etc., Hamas would still be attacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 07:48 AM

Hard to discuss stuff with someone who doesn't appear to be in the real word, Keith. You're the middle-east thread equivalent of pete on the science vs creationist threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 07:59 AM

Easier to insult than to find flaws in what I say, right?

Here is Israel's side of the story on those detentions.

http://www.idf.il/1283-15916-en/Dover.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:11 AM

Keith, I've asked you the same question four times. You'll say anything other than address it, and your responses are getting more and more unworldly. What am I supposed to think?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:16 AM

By the way, that is the Israeli army's take, not "Israel's". Would you like it if our army were able to imprison arbitrarily without charge or trial for months (or years - admit it!) and make public pronouncements about it? I don't think so!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:30 AM

Keith,

Remember that DonT has stated that ISRAEL control the Egyptian government, since they and the Palestinians cannot alter the wall between them- Except they did, and the EGYPTIONS sealed it back up. Either that or DonT thinks that the Palestinians are too stupid to repeat breaking down the wall, and open new gates to Egypt.

In any case, let us discuss the complaint the Israel's response to the random attacks on its civilian population are "disproportionate"

Let me suggest that Israel stop the blockade of the coast and Egyptian border of Gaza ( and seal off the Israeli border entirely. After that, if the Gazans send over a rocket, Israel shoud respond exactly proportionately: They should send an equal amount of explosive, randomly aimed, back at Gaza. THAT would be proportionate, both the present targeting of the launch positions that they are doing. Israel would have to use anti-personnel bombs, like the Gazan rockets- filled with steel pellets to ensure maximum casualies. I suspect the number of civiliian Gazans killed would increase by several orders of magnitude, but that seems to be what DonT has suggested, in requiring ONLY a "Proportionate" response. Of course, when a large missile is launched at Israel, I suspect the Israeli response under "Proportional" response will kill thousands, if not tens of thousands.

And when Hamas gets a nuclear weapon from Iran, I suspect that being "Proportional" will not make many here very happy.

In addition, let us have Israel treat those they suspect of being agents for Hamas the way Hamas treats "Israeli spies" i.e., summary execution. (like they treated their political opponents, filling tires with gasoline and placing them around them, lighting them, and burning those who disagreed with them to death. Made it a lot easier to make sure everyone agreed with them.

I agree that Israel should not shoot anyone coming near their border- but then, ANY attempt to CROSS it should be met with targeted fire, and NOT warning shots. THAT would be proportional, as well.

When hundreds of Palestinians try to cross, and ONE is killed after warning shots, it does not look to me like there is reason to criticize Israel,




Oh, I forgot- Hamas shoots at Israeli soldiers and civilian buses INSIDE Israel from Gaza. So Israel gets to be "Proportional"

What was it that DonT was complaining about?????

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:06 AM

"
So, either he was targetted and shot by an Israeli who could clearly see him and knew exactly what he was killing, or he was killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives.
"


DonT,

You ignore the 5-10% of the antipersonnel rockets that Hamas fires that land in GAZA. With those, a far greater number of civilians will be killed than by the targeted ( at the launch sites) Israeli HE shells ( unless the Palestinians place launch sites in the middle of civilian areas (Can you say "Human Shields"?) ). That is HUNDREDS of rockets, given the number that they fired at Israel.

So, Either the children were :

targeted by Israel,
killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives BY BOTH SIDES.
used as human shields by HAMAS, (a war crime)
or killed by HAMAS antipersonnel rockets. (another war crime)

- RIGHT?:

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:20 AM

Steve,I have answered your question, except that I am not going to embark on the huge issue of West Bank settlements until we have finished with Gaza, as I said.

And, do you really think that piece on an IDF site did not accurately describe their goverment's position?
Pointless point Steve.

Now will you tell me why you believe Hamas will break its covenant and stop trying to kill Jews given more concessions, when all previous concession have resulted in an increase in attacks?

A definition of lunacy is repeating the same actions but expecting different outcomes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:24 AM

The Gazans are treated badly by Israel
I challenge that.
What you call bad treatment are minimal restrictions compared to any other conflict, which are only there because of the conflict, which is a conflicy only Hamas wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:29 AM

Actually, there are other possibilities:



So, Either the children were :

Syrian children shot by their government whose pictures are being used by Hamas

targeted and shot by an Israeli who could clearly see him and knew exactly what he was killing,

targeted and shot by an Palestinian who could clearly see him and knew exactly what he was killing,

killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives by Israel

killed by indiscrimate blind fire, used in complete disregard of civilian lives by Hamas
.
killed by Israeli targeted fire at Hamas positions, while being used as human shields by HAMAS, (a war crime)

or killed by HAMAS antipersonnel rockets. (another war crime)



OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:35 AM

We now appear to have two people posting together who are both out with the fairies. Does Bearded Bruce embarrass you, Keith? He does seem to think he's on your side...

Do you think that Israel's building of more settlements on stolen land at an ever-increasing pace is Israel "dealing with it properly", Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:06 AM

Again Steve, I do not believe it has any relevance, for all the reasons I keep giving you.

Now will you tell me why you believe Hamas will break its covenant and stop trying to kill Jews given more concessions, when all previous concession have resulted in an increase in attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Lox
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:20 AM

"And when Hamas gets a nuclear weapon from Iran"

Iran has to get one first.

Apart from Netanyahu's ravings in the UN with his ridiculous bomb cartoon, this is not a genuine concern.

I agree with Miko Peled that the Iran question is a distraction from the continuing dispossession and displacement of native Arabs from their land.

As he says, what other western ally would get away with evicting a town of 50,000 people to build a King David Archeology theme park?

As long as the current ruling class in Israel continue to keep people afraid of impending armageddon, (something BB predicted a couple of years ago but didn't happen), attention will be easier to deflect from abuses like that described above.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:31 AM

Wrong, Lox.

Iran is close enough now to scare the shit out of anyone who is at all cognizent of the effects of a nuclear weapon.





Steve,

Since you are attacking me rather than commenting on the points I have presented, you are conceding that you do not have a valid argument and are in the wrong. Wouldn't you rather discuss the facts posted than attack those posting??

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:40 AM

Bruce, If that is the case then Israel is at least 200 times as scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:42 AM

"VIENNA (AP) -- The head of the U.N. nuclear agency says he cannot provide a "credible assurance" for Tehran's claims that all of its atomic activities are peaceful.

Speaking Thursday at a board meeting of the 35-country International Atomic Energy Agency, Yukiya Amano also expressed concern over Iran's "activities" at Parchin, southeast of Tehran.

His experts want to visit the site amid suspicions that it was used for secret tests related to nuclear weapons developments. His language is diplomatic shorthand for an alleged cleanup at the site."




Iran is presently building a heavy water reactor to produce plutonium. **I** could chemically separate plutonium, and if I had 10 - 12 KG I could make a 20KT+ nuclear device ( as could ANY Physics or Nuc. Eng Bachlor of Science). Do you really think that the Iranians are incapable or reading????

The present Iranian IRBMs have a range of around 1500 KM. The next generation is planned for 2500 KM +- draw some circles on the map and tell me what they could hit. And THAT is ignoring the placement of the present IRBMs on container ships and standing off-shore from the US, say 300 miles out in International waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:48 AM

"If that is the case then Israel is at least 200 times as scary."

And Russia is thousands of times more scary, and so is the US. China is hundreds of times more scary, and Pakistan and India are equally scary.

But ONLY Iran is in violation of the UN Treaty they signed.



And people who put their heads in the sand and ignore Iran are the scariest of all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 12:51 PM

And Israel is a serial UN violator, B. Bruce, but we aren't all getting overly paranoid about its nukes (apart from the sheer hypocrisy of their having them and threatening to start a war because they think someone they don't like who's never started a war might also be thinking of getting one).

What was that about facts, B. Bruce? If you want to present facts, try doing it without the alarmist claptrap. You make it hard for one to sort out the facts from the hype otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:14 PM

"Hamas will break its covenant and stop trying to kill Jews given more concessions,"
Massacres of Palestinian villagers were taking place with hand grenades being thrown into occupied houses as British troops were pulling out in 1949
Missile attacks on Israel came 20 years after Israel's opening attempts to control the Palestinian economy AS A RETALIATION to that control.
Perhaps if Israelis stopped killing Palestinians, massacring refugees, taking their land, destroying their homes, bombarding them with heavy artillery and chemicals, imprisoning children, humiliating them on a daily basis.... and generally stopped behaving like the bunch of Nazis they appear to have become, the missiles would stop.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:32 PM

I doubt it,Jim, too many people making money out of stirring the pot, and selling arms, guns etc,
iran is NOW being presented as a bogeynman by the USA BECAUSE THEY ARE THREATENING THE PETRO DOLLAR , TALKING ABOUT AND PROPOSING SELLING OIL IN EUROS.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 01:43 PM

As for me, I'm still waiting to hear about these "concessions". And for Keith to tell me whether continuing theft of land for settlements at an accelerating pace is "addressing the issue properly". Come along now, Keith. Never mind that you seem to think that Gaza and the West Bank are a million miles apart and have nothing to do with each other. Do you think it's OK for Israel to keep on building those settlements? Or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 03:53 PM

Jim, I do not agree with your version of the history of the region, and you seem to be saying that Israelis deserve to have missiles fired at them.
Right?
And, please remember this is about Gaza.

Steve, in Gaza there is no expansion of settlements.
Let me tell you again about the concessions already made by Israel.

When Hamas started rocketing Israel, they complained that Israeli troops were in Gaza and there were Israeli settlements.
To address the issue, Israel kicked out all its settlers.
Then it completely withdrew all its people and troops back into Israel.
They hoped Hamas might respond positively to those enormous conciliatory moves, but Hamas was and is only interested in killing Jews.

Now will you tell me why you believe Hamas will break its covenant and stop trying to kill Jews if given more concessions, when all previous concession have only resulted in an increase in attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:33 PM

When Hamas started rocketing Israel, they complained that Israeli troops were in Gaza and there were Israeli settlements.
To address the issue, Israel kicked out all its settlers.
Then it completely withdrew all its people and troops back into Israel.
They hoped Hamas might respond positively to those enormous conciliatory moves, but Hamas was and is only interested in killing Jews.

Pure revisionism. Sharon pulled out of Gaza because it was not worth staying there any more. It was, literally, more trouble than it was worth. It was not done as any sort of graceful, peace-seeking concession to the Palestinians. It was a piece of realpolitik. Your analysis was conjured up in cloud cuckoo land. The Israeli administrations of recent years have not made one single meaningful concession, and they don't need to and they never will. Not until the US threatens to withdraw the military aid. Do you think that those West Bank settlements, still expanding at an ever-faster rate, is a good way of dealing withe issue "properly", Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 08:34 PM

with the, I s'pose.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:35 PM

This is a long thread and my computer is running slow. Perhaps somewhere in the above messages it is explained but I am left wondering???
What is the difference between a complete and an incomplete arsehole? I am quite aware of what an arsehole is as well as its idiomatic meaning but the "complete" part really confuses me.
Might arseholes on both sides fit the definition or are some more complete than others?
In any case the world is governed by arseholes as shown here:
Leaders

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:04 AM

Sharon pulled out of Gaza because it was not worth staying there any more. It was, literally, more trouble than it was worth.

All made up Steve.
You can not make your case without fabrications.

The settlements were thriving and prosperous, producing food in plenty and employing lots of Gazans.
IDF had to force them out at gunpoint.
Likewise the successful businesses, including those inside Israel that hundreds of Gazans commuted to every day for well paid jobs.

Pulling out cost Israel dear, but it would have been worth it to bring peace.

. The Israeli administrations of recent years have not made one single meaningful concession

When Hamas started rocketing Israel, they complained that Israeli troops were in Gaza and there were Israeli settlements.
To address the issue, Israel kicked out all its settlers.
Then it completely withdrew all its people and troops back into Israel.

More recently, the Gazans complained that Israel imposed restrictions on them just because they kept murdering Jews with missiles.

Amazingly, and dangerously, Israel reduced or removed all the restrictions.

They hoped Hamas might respond positively to those enormous conciliatory moves, but Hamas was and is only interested in killing Jews.

Do you think that those West Bank settlements,....

Hamas regards the whole of Israel as an illegal settlement.
It is openly pledged to kill and drive out every Jew from the place, so this or that settlement in West Bank is utterly irrelevant to them.
This is not me making shit up.
They are quite open about it and keep telling everyone, but you naive saps think they don't really mean it, or else you share their aspirations.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:21 AM

"Jim, I do not agree with your version of the history of the region, "
Not my version - you've had your evidence and you've consistently chosen either to ignore it or deny it without proof. You have any problems with what has been presented to you (again and again and again...) show us where they have got it wrong.
Even now you continue to dismiss without specifying exactly what you disagree with."Israelis deserve to have missiles fired at them." - I realise it is pissing in the wind to ask you to qualify your accusation - but feel free.
You, on the other hand, have persistently defended Israeli atrocities aimed specifically at Palestinian civilians, either denying that they ever happened or suggesting that the Israelis have a right to fire into built up areas because they know Hamas is hiding there (in other words, slaughtering hostages). You have yet to explain how the Israelis know exactly where Hamas fighters are, especially when the Israelis have made it clear that they don't - making their attacks totally randon (apartment blocks, press centres, and in the past, schools and hospitals).
"And, please remember this is about Gaza."
Where does the OP say anything about Gaza - it is about the Israeli leaders and their behaviour towards the Palestinians, and for someone who constantly manipulates threads away from the original subject to suit your own agenda, you have a ******* cheek to attempt to manipulate this one away from from the bits that don't suit you and into your own particular comfort zone. You have been warned before; you have no authority on this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:52 AM

How much are the Israelis and/or various jewish organisations paying Keith A?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:12 AM

Where does the OP say anything about Gaza

The OP "Are they not doing a Cristina Kirshner by diverting attention from Isael's social and other problems???"
What they were doing was attacking Hamas, IN GAZA!

show us where they have got it wrong.
I already have, and how cross it makes you to have an alternative version of events presented.

."Israelis deserve to have missiles fired at them." - I realise it is pissing in the wind to ask you to qualify your accusation - but feel free.
Thanks Jim.
In your previous post 29 Nov 12 - 01:14 PM you ascribed the missile attacks as retaliation for a list of made up Israeli crimes.

suggesting that the Israelis have a right to fire into built up areas because they know Hamas is hiding there
I do not suggest, I state it as a fact.
If a combatant fights from civilian occupied positions, you may still engage them provided you give warnings of what you intend to do and make every effort to minimise civilian casualties.
Israel was careful to comply with International Law on that.

You have yet to explain how the Israelis know exactly where Hamas fighters are
IDF are able to identify exactly where the war criminals are hiding.
Look what happened to Jabari and all those fighters in the press building.
They monitor mobile phone transmissions and use voice print technology, and Gazans also give them away.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:15 AM

Don Wise, you have guessed right.
I take millions in Jewish gold, mostly in tooth form, and am part of that global Jewish conspiracy to rule the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 06:02 AM

"What they were doing was attacking Hamas, IN GAZA!
No they weren't - they were indiscriminately bombing - go and look at the targets - apartment blocks, - casualty figures - and how many of those were civilian - women and children.
That you see these as legitimate targets says what needs to be said about you and your thuggish cronies.
"PM you ascribed the missile attacks as retaliation for a list of made up Israeli crimes."
Exactly - the missile attacks are a direct consequence of the Israeli regime's behaviour - a point everybody has been making to you but which you have rejected (without proof). Nobody has remotely suggested that the Israeli people "deserve" to be bombarded, just that the blame lies with their own governments.
"....mostly in tooth form,"
What an appalling attempt at humour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 06:34 AM

No they weren't - they were indiscriminately bombing - go and look at the targets

Here are some assessments of casualties.

By 22 November, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights said that 158 Palestinians had been killed since the operation began, of which: 102 were civilians, 55 militants and one was policeman. 30 children and 13 women were among the killed.[323][324]

The Israel Defense Forces have stated that out of 177 Palestinians killed, 120 were militants.[16] The UN has estimated that 103 of the Palestinian victims of civilians
So after thousands of strikes in a densely populated urban area, about 103 civilians, some of whom would be willing to be shields or martyrs.
Indiscriminate bombing on that scale would have killed thousands.

Israeli MFA
As a result of IDF operations, the command and control apparatus of Hamas was significantly struck, beginning with the targeting of the commander of the military wing of Hamas, Ahmed Jabari, continuing with the targeting of broad terrorist infrastructure, facilities and military bases, as well as the destruction of dozens of smuggling and explosive tunnels.

During the operation, the IDF damaged and destroyed significant elements of Hamas' strategic capabilities. Among those capabilities were long-range (over 40 km) and hundreds of short- and medium-range rocket launchers. These actions have severely impaired Hamas' launching capabilities. The Iron Dome defense system has accomplished high rate of successful interceptions (84%) and Hamas' accuracy with regards to hitting populated areas within Israel remained below 7%.

Over the course of Operation Pillar of Defense, the IDF targeted over 1,500 terror sites including 19 senior command centers, operational control centers and Hamas' senior-rank headquarters, 30 senior operatives, damaging Hamas' command and control, hundreds of underground rocket launchers, 140 smuggling tunnels, 66 terror tunnels, dozens of Hamas operation rooms and bases, 26 weapon manufacturing and storage facilities and dozens of long-range rocket launchers and launch sites.

Senior operatives targeted:

Ahmed Jabari, head of Hamas' military wing
Hab's Hassan Us Msamch, senior operative in Hamas' police
Ahmed Abu Jalal, Commander of the military wing in Al-Muazi
Khaled Shaer, senior operative in the anti-tank operations
Osama Kadi, senior operative in the smuggling operations in the southern Gaza Strip
Muhammad Kalb, senior operative in the aerial defense operations
Ramz Harb, Islamic Jihad senior operative in propaganda in Gaza city

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:45 AM

Keith, you're a bloody waste of space. Only pete on creationism can match you for turning and twisting and denying blazing realities and holding your head in the clouds. Is Lieberman your uncle?

On a far more serious note, I have advice for those wishing to distinguish between incomplete and complete arseholes. Simple. All you have to do is look at things in the round.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:59 AM

Keith, you're a bloody waste of space. Only pete on creationism can match you for turning and twisting and denying blazing realities and holding your head in the clouds. Is Lieberman your uncle?

All very insulting, but not one specific challenge to anything I have said.
You can't because it is fact.

You have to make up your stuff.

Now, will you explain why you still believe Hamas will break its covenant, and stop trying to kill Jews, if given more concessions even though all previous concession have only resulted in an increase in attacks?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 10:47 AM

"Jabari was assassinated extra-judicially"

Jabari assasinated extra-judicially but since it was Jews he was killing I guess that doesn't earn your opprobrium.

That won't wash any more Bobad.

The fact that somebody commits a crime neither does, nor should, exonerate the victim for resorting to the same criminal methods. That is the stupid thinking of the playground bully.

BOTH TO BLAME!

One day you and Keith will catch on, but I'm not holding my breath.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:07 AM

""IDF does not carry out indiscriminate murder of Arabs.""

So just what are those civilians who die in Israeli air strikes, shellings and shootings through the border, Norwegians?

You and Bobad between you tell more lies than the Official Israeli propagandists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:14 AM

""However, we have seen that concessions make no difference to Hamas except to increase there will to kill more Jews, so it is not an issue.""

If that's the case, they're being pretty ineffective in their attempts, losing at kill rates of between ten to one and a hundred to one.

There'll be lots of Israelis around to bury the last Gaza Palestinian.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:27 AM

""All the issues elsewhere are irrelevant to Hamas.
You kid yourself that Hamas hits Israel because of them.
If Israel withdrew from West Bank, tore down the wall, etc., Hamas would still be attacking.""

I'm sure Hamas would prefer a wall between Palestine and Israel.

What they won't accept is Israelis living on the best of their land as if they own it.

You Keith are either very stupid or very devious in not recognising that the Palestinians are entitled to wantnthose settlers off Palestinian land and back in their own country.

You want to keep off the subject of West Bank settlements because their existence makes nonsense of your claims that Hamas still fires rockets when Israel has withdrawn.

Israel has not withdrawn, and Israelis are still squatting on Palestinian territory, and you can't just choose which stolen land should end their resistence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:50 AM

""I suspect the number of civiliian Gazans killed would increase by several orders of magnitude, but that seems to be what DonT has suggested, in requiring ONLY a "Proportionate" response.""

I'm getting heartily sick of halfwits taking my words out of context and assigning utterly false meanings of their own, and now here comes yet another.

READ MY FUCKING LIPS!   BOTH SIDES ARE TO BLAME!   But one of them is capable of totally destroying the other, and one is NOT!

The government and the military forces of Israel are presiding over the land grab by Israeli citizens, of the best land belonging to Palestine.

It is ridiculous to believe that the government of any country on earth would meekly accept that, but that is exactly what our biased Israeli apologists want Hamas to do.

And Hamas, however nasty, (and it is bloody nasty) is the de facto government of Palestine.

The lengths to which Keith and Bobad will go to avoid having to admit that Israel is far from having withdrawn from Palestian land, is a good measure of the weakness (which they would hate to admit) of their argument.

The mantra of which Keith makes so much use, about Hamas' covenant to destroy Israel, is just nonsense. They don't and never will, have the capability to do more than scare a lot of people and even more cattle, and kill on average two people a year.

Two people an hour would be a low score for Israeli attacks.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:26 PM

I can't believe that no-one has made this juxtaposition: -

UN recognition of Palestine

Israel's response

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 01:14 PM

Richard, Your link (Israel's response) doesn't pull anything up..do you have another?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 01:24 PM

What else is to be expected from a bunch of arseholes whose interest in peaceful relations with the Palestinians is either the peace of the graveyard or of ethnic cleansing.........

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:59 PM

resorting to the same criminal methods
Jalbari was an enemy combatant operating beyond judicial reach.
He was a completely legitimate military target.

So just what are those civilians who die in Israeli air strikes,
They were the tragic victims of the war criminals fighting from civilian locations.
IDF did everything possible to minimise such casualties including giving warnings of its strikes, and despite hitting well over a thousand targets, only about 103 civilians died.
The experience of Syria shows us that indiscriminate bombing on that scale in a densely populated urban area should have killed tens of thousands.

If that's the case, they're being pretty ineffective in their attempts,
Thank God for that, but it is not acceptable for millions of ordinary people to be terrorised endlessly and stop all normal life and live underground, to avoid being killed.

You Keith are either very stupid or very devious in not recognising that the Palestinians are entitled to wantnthose settlers off Palestinian land
As I said Don, Hamas are dedicated to killing Jews and driving Jews out of Israel, so they will not stop whatever Israel does or does not do, because it is their very existence that drives them.

The mantra of which Keith makes so much use, about Hamas' covenant to destroy Israel, is just nonsense

Sure Don.
They say it, they act on it, but they don't really mean it.
Jews are just being paranoid.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:37 PM

He was a completely legitimate military target

No he wasn't. He was not directly involved in direct battle and he was not setting off rockets. I don't mind your trying to justify his killing, but let's at least be honest, Keith. He was assassinated inside the Gaza Strip (which you claim the Israelis had walked away from). He was not involved at that time in firing at the enemy. The killing was organised by the Israeli leadership who were informed by their intelligence agency of his location in a non-combat zone. Now I was glad deep down inside when Ceausescu was bumped off. I shed no tears when Osama was nobbled. I almost certainly would not, had I been around, have fretted over Musso hanging upside down from a lamp-post. But these were extra-judicial killings just the same as the killing of yer man in Gaza was an extra-judicial killing. We can argue all night about the rights and wrongs of such expedient tactics. But Keith, please have the grace to call it what it was. Summary execution without trial. Will that do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:50 PM

That's what it was, Steve. Didn't break my heart. The MF lived by the same sword he died by.

That aside, I hope the Likud loses in this election because they ain't making all that much sense right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:03 PM

I just wish that some people on this board could be as straightforward, Bruce. I don't mind having to confront unpalatable things about Hamas, and they are many. It grieves me, though, when I see people like Keith doing every twist and turn in the book to deny reality. I don't think the Palestinians have got things right very often. To read Keith's posts, though, you'd think that the Israeli leadership down the decades has been all sweetness and light. And I still can't get him to say whether he thinks that the accelerating settlement-building is the proper way to deal with the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 01:40 AM

He was senior leadership of an organisation at war with Israel.
He commanded those who fired the missiles.
He told where to illegally fire them from, and which towns to illegally fire them at
He was a legitimate military target.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Israeli leaders complete arseholes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 10:58 AM

Blessed are the peacemekers!!
http://news.yahoo.com/israel-okays-west-bank-settlement-construction-163700464.html
Jim Carroll