BS: biological factors in these young men

Subject: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: mg
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:12 AM

I am trying to piece this all together...I think we could all come up with many social forces that are stressing young men out..lack of employment, no father in the family, poverty.

I am wondering if there are further biological factors that are disproportionally affecting young men...I can think of some and might interact with other things, such as drugs, diet etc.

1. Male hormonal system. Very powerful hormones, especially in late adolescence.
2. Diet..especially trans fats combined with high carb. Lack of nourishing fats, replaced with distorted fats. Read up on stuff written by Dr. Mary Enig...she has mentioned sexual dysfunction...wierd stuff, not just lack of development..as resulting from trans fat injestion.
3. Huge male fertility problems...is there something in the air, the water..plastics

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: mg
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:21 AM

not done.

4. Prescription drugs..for ADD, depression, bipolar...but why are they so predominantly male, at least ADD?

5. Illegal drugs, including marijuana, which has effects on developing boy's brain and hormonal systems.

6. Certainly lack of fresh air, exercise, natural light...flourescent lights known to do great damage.

7. Back to diet..soy products...estrogen substitute. These are given to babies for heavens sake...unless the baby would die of starvation without them..could not tolerate anything else..bad news.

I don't know. Something is physically and developmentally targeting boys. It is somewhat social..this is not a good time to be born a marginal boy...but there are obviously biological components...genetic? In utero? Nutritional? Atmospheric? What is going on? So many do not even look healthy...do they ever get outdoors? Do you ever see a game of soccer in the street?

Overprotection? I was in church this morning and sat in the crying room so I could sleep more cozily during the sermon...two other women and three children..aged aboug 12, 8 and 5. They were not rowdy..a few whispers and giggles is all..one of the women was upset by the perceived noise..she said..actually said..they are two young to be left here alone. If we can not imagine leaving a 12 year old, who could watch the others, in the back of a church, in a pretty safe community, with other adults, one of whom was a nurse...what has the world come to?

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:27 AM

High Fructose Corn Syrup
=(:-( ))

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:44 AM

You forgot the main factor - easy access to guns. It really is that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:52 AM

BVD style underware - central heating.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: mg
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:00 AM

No it isn't. Girls have equal access to guns and this is not anywhere near the problem with them.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:35 AM

Testosterone

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: mg
Date: 17 Dec 12 - 04:57 AM

true..that is a huge factor I am sure...and I imagine that many of these young men are not successful with the young ladies, etc...which could lead to rage, depression, etc. I will never understand why people think..or at least used to..that men have it so much better than women. It seems to me, at least in our societies, that women are so much less troubled in some of these ways.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:25 PM

Nature or nurture? Biology may be part of the problem, but even today most boys and girls are raised differently. Boys are still less likely to be encouraged to be nurturers. Also, boys are still less likely to see adult male role models who are nurturers. Boys are still more likely to be taught to hide their emotions or "suck it up."

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:18 AM

job loss and mental illness are highly correlated with these atrocities

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:07 AM

"No it isn't. Girls have equal access to guns and this is not anywhere near the problem with them."

Yes it is - no guns, no massacre! Sex has nothing to do with it. In the UK young men face the same social and biological issues but, apart from the occasional gangland killing (something imported from the US,) we don't have repeated massacres by youngsters. Stop trying to find excuses and face the real issue.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:57 AM

'No father in the family, unemployment, poverty' Have a look at the social conditions in the thirties here in UK. Many young men were under pressure. They left school at fourteen and had few hopes of anything good. But they didn't go about attacking and/or killing people. 'Poverty' nowadays is nothing like 'poverty' then. They were lucky to eat once a day. I blame TV video games, overindulgence with material goods, a sexually and commercially orientated modern society, lack of almost any discipline, alcohol consumption, a 'feral' lifestyle with unlimited freedom ... and so on and so on. These things are a recipe for a disfunctional society. Here in UK, from what I see on Police programmes, the girls are fast catching up with the boys with regard to lack of self-control, drunkeness, disorder and violence.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:10 AM

Eliza, in the UK, the majority of gun crime is not committed by youngsters; it is, unsurprisingly, committed by those people who have the greatest access to guns - people who, usually quite legally, own shotguns and hunting rifles. North Yorkshire, a larely rural county, has the largest ownership of guns in the UK. I know this because, as I have mentioned on previous occasions, my son is a police firearms officer and member of the armed reponse unit that has to deal with a large proportion of incidents.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:18 AM

I believe all you say, leveller, that gun crimes are not committed by younger men, and that this is because they haven't (thank God, and Americans please note) access to firearms. But I still hold by what I posted above about their aggression and violent attitudes. They may not have guns, but knives are becoming a grave problem in many areas, as are ABH and GBH offences by young men. I admire your son for his courage in being literally in the frontline of shooting incidents. You must be proud and worried in equal measure!

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:21 AM

The generation that come in here are to blame the "we don't want our children to have the hardship we had so we wont teach them right from wrong" attitude ofwartime and post war babies. Children need to learn boundaries young.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:31 AM

Boundaries be buggered. The whole world has angry teenagers. Many parts of the world have some kind of machismo culture (although some are fed from US and Afro-caribbean cultures and images). Only in the USA (in the developed world) do these kind of massacres happen (Anders Breivik is a whole different ballgame) and without the US devotion to and lack of control of guns male teenage meltdowns would result at worst in one or two dead - not dozens.

USA - it's time to start to grow up.

And the "hand on your ha'penny" brigade - wake up - people who have good sex lives are generally happy people. People did not go on gun rampages in Europe in the late 40s and 50s because they were aware of enough killing in war that "I'll kill you" was seen as sociopathic, not "healthy assertiveness".

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:31 AM

I have no children, Megan, but I do see an awful lot of indulgence and spoiling of youngsters. I like children (I've been shut in a room woth thirty at a time for donkey's years, so I must!) but it's for their own good to learn discipline, self-control and yes, boundaries. Once a child is ten or so, it's too late to try and rein them in. Do you think working mums, feeling exhausted, under pressure and a bit guilty, use material goods and the 'anything for a quiet life' strategy to spoil their offspring? They're battling against the media too. Children are very influenced by TV, as they watch it all the time. My generation (my friends are all the same age as me, ie wrinklies) are truly shocked and worried by the lack of good parenting we see.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:10 AM

knives are becoming a grave problem in many areas

Knife crime in the UK has been static for years. The age of people who do it is going down a bit, the overall incidence isn't. (It's slightly more frequent in the US). There are some regional variations, but in the areas with unusually high knife crime (like Glasgow) educational initiatives and turn-it-in campaigns are working well. The police do occasionally get things right.

The incidence of all violent crime has been decreasing for decades in every country in the developed world. The US included. Looking for apocalyptic explanations for a damp fizzle is a bit silly.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:10 AM

Boys aren't allowed to fight anymore. For hundreds of thousands thousands of years, adolescent boys have gotten angry at one another over minor slights and settled their differences with impromptu fistfights and wrestling matches. And I'm not talking about bullies here. I'm talking about friends and even brothers who have their little fisticuffs, shake hands, and have forgotten about it in a matter of hours. On rare occasion, someone might get seriously injured, but the damage was seldom more than a black eye or bloody nose.

That's no longer allowed in much of society. If two kids get in a playground fight, we call the cops and then send them both off for counseling. It has to have had some effects. You can't change a behavior that's been considered normal for thousands of generations and not expect to see some aberrations. We're animals with animal DNA, and we're programmed to exhibit some animal behaviors. If we disallow those behaviors the underlying tensions which cause them go unresolved and can build up to explosive proportions.

If we're not going to allow boys to release their aggressions through minor little personal skirmishes, if a few black eyes and a chipped tooth or two is too high a price to pay for having them grow up as unrepressed individuals, then we need to find some alternative ways to allow them to relieve their aggression. And first-person shooter video games are not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:08 AM

I think that there are quite a lot of experienced pyschologists and sociologists who would fundamentally disagree with you there,Bee.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:45 AM

Same as in real estate...location...Location...LOCATION.

Brits have a high tolerence for crime. A comparison between London and New York.

London Muder Map Click For case Detailz.



Recently total crime rates for London have been estimated at about seven times those of New York for a slightly smaller population and some authorities suggest these figures have been minimized. England and Wales are now accounted by some estimates as the most dangerous places for crime in the developed world.


London vs New York CRIME

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 08:44 AM

The gun culture, and all that entails, in the US - period. Stop making excuses for it.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:00 AM

You bet, Mary - it ain't their fault its genetic predisposition, they're not responsible. Their genes made 'em do it.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:08 AM

Garg - I don't believe you.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:10 AM

Nor should you - he'e referencing another lunatic's blog.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:21 AM

""Brits have a high tolerence for crime. A comparison between London and New York.""

Such a balanced blog. Nice to see the kind of even handed reporting that produces a map of London with tags for murders committed as far back as 18 f**kin 12.

Well done Gargoyle. All the way down to your usual rock bottom standard and more.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:00 AM

Excuses, excuses and more excuses.
It's got fuck all to do with biological factors, more to do with fucked-up minds, and everything to do with a nation that worships guns, makes little or no effort to control who has them and how many they have, and allows the small-dick gun nuts to run the show.
FFS get real.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:48 AM

Maybe not nature but nurture. If you're brought up in a culture that worships guns and even instils in you that carrying a gun is a God-given right and duty, it's no wonder that you won't give a second thought to picking up a gun and using it as a way of righting an implied wrong. Killing your fellow man seems to be in the national psyche of the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 12:59 PM

Of course 'most' males of most species on the planet approach life & stress differently than 'most' females. Of course testosterone is involved. Of course cultural variations and specific environmental factors (upbringing and genetic differences) on top of all this contribute to how they cope.

Males of many species do not get to mate unless they are the strongest, luckiest ones, and there are many vestiges of those factors in humans, where boys struggle for some sort of position & dominance. For our ancestors of a million years ago, it was not an issue... they just did it, not discussed it!

It is US..in a modern society where more cooperation and less fighting and dominance is required that it gets confusing, because all those genetic traits that ensured survival for millions of years have not gone away!
Boys still react to inner signals... and girls still react to to boys... but with more considerations than just strength and proven fertility.....and there are SO many issues for genetic traits sort out that go far beyond food and mating and societal dominance!

It is work, learning to be human and cope when the 'rules' seem to conflict with the 'drives'.


Things happen... and we MUST use our big brains to, as best we can, control the factors that make this complex society work in some reasonable way.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: pdq
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

People are tribal by nature.

Young males are expected to be fighters and protect the tribe.

This is especially obvious in males from about 18-25 years of age.

Of the September 11 hijackers, 4 were exactly 20 and almost all were 20-24 years of age.

They thought they were protecting their tribe, at least that is what he planners of the atrocity made them believe.

Mental illness, brainwashing or just plain lame thinking will cause young males to commit violent acts, but the basic tendancy is genetically encoded.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:15 PM

There is noone so as important in some situations than a strong young man. There is no one more redundant in other situations. There is no shortage of problems for them to solve, using big machinery if they like it..no shortage of what should be constructed, fortified, torn down. Putting them to work in WPA type programs (or better yet real jobs with real apprenticeships etc.) would go a long way in solving some of the antsiness..it is not a cure for anything but the most mild of mental illness, but it could take the edge off and keep the ones whose problems are not biological from spiraling downward.

The ones that are most concerning are those who are obviously not OK from a very early age..the screaming, hitting etc. Some will never be OK with our present set of fixes.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:40 PM

I always smile when someone - almost always a man - mentions the 'instability' and 'mood swings' of women with PMS and their cyclical 'hormonal problems'. Boys and young men are susceptible to hormones all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:48 PM

That's right, PeeDee - they're not responsible - its genetic encoding.

Same reason you come across as an idiot; not your fault, its genetics.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:19 PM

Testosterone, no outlet and access to guns.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 07:23 PM

Boys and young men are susceptible to hormones all the time.

*grin*... when I see Dr. Strangelove trying to keep his arm from giving the Nazi salute, I always see other metaphors at work...

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:16 PM

A 78-year-old friend of mine told me - wryly - that he used to think of sex 98% of the time. Now, he said, it has diminished to only about 50%. :)

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: mg
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 10:21 PM

This is a very important aspect of the problem I think. We do not know what to do with socially undesirable men..they can not find dates, wives, etc. They are bound to be angry and/or depressed. Sometimes it is mostly financial. Sometimes they are just wierd. What can be done? They are constantly rejected.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 11:07 PM

While I agree that the US is way ahead of the rest of the world in gun crimes and that we need to figure out how to stop this, did somebody forget Dunblane?

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:42 AM

"Did somebody forget Dunblane?"

No - the government ACTED, very quickly, to outlaw the kind of weapons the shooter used. It's sixteen years now, and it hasn't happened again. Australia removed automatics and semis from private ownership, no repeat of the tragedy that happened there. Why won't Americans learn from other nations......more "Biological factors"?

Unfortunately, your government prefers to sit with its fingers up its arse, weeping crocodile tears and repeating the lunatic's mantra, some shite about "Guns don't kill people......"

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 03:06 AM

Backwoodsman beat me to it. Will the US take similar action over handguns? Sadly, I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Megan L
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:08 AM

Remove computers, tractors and all modern tools men didnt have time to get depressed when they had to use their muscles to work. Think of every time saving gadget and how many jobs they have cost.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 12:46 PM

You must be Amish Megan. My grandma did all the washing in a dolly tub, cooked on a coal range, didn't have a hoover and, yes, she had no spare time....oh, and she died at the age of 58.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:31 PM

From reading the Comments section of many articles printed in the US (I know- I should quit doing that. Talk about depressing.) I get the impression that many Americans consider freedom to be the issue; by extension, they are saying that countries that don't have unlimited 'rights' to gun ownership are not free.

Anyone want to address that? Do UKers not feel free? Are Europeans unreasonably bound?

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 02:14 PM

Very good point Ebbie. I feel that Americans have a pioneer spirit and self-sufficient outlook on life. I admire their courage and resourcefulness, for instance in the face of the terrible natural disasters they've suffered recently. But they also seem never to have lost their ferocious determination to defend their rights and freedoms, especially woth regard to this bearing arms thing. I do indeed feel free due to the tight control on gun ownership here in UK. I feel reasonably free from fear of being shot at or caught in crossfire. I also like and welcome other laws which protect my safety, such as speed limits, pollution control, car roadworthiness, alcohol levels when driving, Health-and-Safety rules etc. But some folk here get irritated by Police intervention, and hate eg speed cameras. Sensible and considered restrictions give society members more freedom from danger and risk of death.

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 02:45 PM

I like the freedom of not having to even think that I might get shot - never crosses my mind. I know this to be a freedom from the time I lived in South Africa - a very different society. I also enjoy the freedom of not having to carry a gun myself in order to feel "free".

Subject: RE: BS: biological factors in these young men
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:12 PM

I've read nothing on this thread that I totally disagreed with, and I'd add a couple of points.
A.D.D. boys. In the past, they would have been out in the workforce at 15, and have the balancing effect of mature(r) men around them, and work to give them self-respect. Or they'd be in the forces.

Diet, one of Mary's points. We now eat a diet that our ancestors did not subsist and evolve on, with much sugar, international cereals rather than native ones, foods that are modified all the way to genetics, pops and sodas instead of water, added dyes and preservatives. We also take medicines for everything, and have what used to be 'treat' foods everyday.

Susceptible people can now be bullied and hassled electronically as well as manually. Into suicide, sometimes.
I agree with BWL at 06:10, pretty much.