BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:44 AM

There is a lot of that Charmion. I had already said that the link provided by Bruce earlier was no big surprise. Whenever there is government funding there are accusations of mis-management. I wanted to show that there are two sides to every story and, more often than not, neither can be fully believed. It is the easiest path in any argument to shout and scream that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and the largest weapon in that armoury seems to be the race card.

In an issue as important as human rights it is important to be particularly objective and especially convincing. It is by this method, not by actual or virtual terrorism that Gandhi freed India; that Martin Luther King made the government see sense and that Gerry Adams eventually won the case for the Northern Irish Catholics.

This is another of those important issues and it will only be won by common-sense, reason and meaningful communications. I am sure that the people that matter do realise this and that they will distance themselves from those who seek to derail the process.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:37 AM

Funding is certainly an issue, as it is everywhere, as there is never enough. Saying the issues are merely because of underfunding is simplistic (though may seem logical from afar) and takes few of the factors "on the ground" into consideration.

But, the lack of trust, accountability, and leadership on all sides seem to be the main factor- as poorly needed infrastructure projucts go nowhere because people have big egos, see things differently, have different approaches and agenda's and dig their heels in.

Here is a news item from CBC, from about a year ago. I believe it may have been also posted last year.
Checking in on Attawapiskat

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM

Define "underfunding"' please.

The government is clearly being disingenuous, which is to say economical with the truth to gain a tactical advantage in this dispute.

But Attawapiskat is no shining example of openness and transparency, either -- isn't this the same band that screamed bloody murder when a federal administrator was foisted on it some months ago?

First Nations funding issues have something in common with military procurement: costs are discussed in global terms -- 15 years of maintenance for 65 jet fighters, for example, or building new houses for an entire community living in a very isolated area where all materials must be flown in. None of us on this board -- unless there's a deputy minister hiding out there under a Mudcat monicker -- has the administrative experience to manipulate such concepts knowledgably and explain them lucidly to the rest of us

I believe band administrators have much the same problem: they have to translate the minutiae of daily life in the bush into funding proposals that fit into a government program that calculates its spending in terms of Parliamentary votes.

In the armed forces, there are literally thousands of skilled administrators, logisticians, engineers and planners to handle that challenge, and we still end up with trucks that break, sewage disposal problems on sub-Arctic bases, and budget over-runs. But the military chain of command can't slam its books shut and pull the race card when incompetence and error are found, and the Department of National Defence has no problem firing those who are culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 10:03 PM

The National Post article showed unfunding for the housing and survival needs. This would increase the probability of crisis decision making, sloppy bookkeeping, consultants taking advantage, etc. Does that make government underfunding wonderful?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:57 PM

I hardly feel it is "small minded" to be concerned that so many people live in such poor conditions on this First Nations area, some that reached a housing crisis situation last winter - while so much money - intended to help these folks - is now unaccounted for, and the people responsible don't seem to want to discuss it.

It's also odd that when these same third-world conditions were raised in a dedicated post on Mudcat at the time last winter, few people on mudcat actually participated in the discussion. Most people moved on to other more pressing mudcat threads. Check out the thread-if anyone wants a trip down memory lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:42 PM

The article linked above by Ms Cornish is interesting, but deals with only half the story -- and not the more interesting half. It provides evidence that the federal government is over-promising and under-delivering, actually handing over far less money than it has claimed, and that the money handed over must cover a much wider array of soial services than is usually acknowledged.

I, for one, am quite prepared to believe that.

But the documents linked to in that article refer only to the sums paid to the band; they have nothing to say about what the band did with the money. That is what many hundreds of thousands of inquiring minds in this country would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:41 PM

Thank you Lizzie for the link to The National Post on Attawapiskat funding. I haven't been following the bickering on Mudcat, so I never saw the link to the article before. In fact, I couldn't make sense of C-45 after a First Nations friend gave me a heads up. Then I ran into an Idle No More demonstration. I felt peoples' fear and concern and decided to do better homework.

Chief Spence helped greatly in bringing First Nations issues to the forefront. Small-minded people accuse her, a leader of a community in crisis, of less than perfect double-entry bookkeeping. So what? Not everyone is as perfect as these self-rightous mudcatters. The Canadian government controlled the money. How good are their controls? Crisises create daily problems. Americans misplaced billions in the chaos in Iraq. After the kerfuffle we might also give Chief Spence credit for raising the issues of reporting, equity and transparancy on reserves.

The National Post is as right wing as The Sun group, with less trashy writers. This article is important.

Again, thanks,
David

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:24 PM

And, yet another perspective:
Interesting perspective from IPolitics

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:55 PM

Global breaking news

Interesting how politician Spence was so interested in giving the news stations an "audience' and had plent of time for 'em when it was "going all her way".

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:28 PM

Not sure which Sun is referred to but I think it only fair to give the other side - In this case The Star.

Make up your own minds, folks. Believe nothing you hear, a little of what you read and only half of what you see :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:15 PM

Bruce's link from further up.

The REAL Story of Attawapiskat funding - Not written by Sun News


Article worth reading unless you have preconceived notions about Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:06 PM

Prime minister John Diefenbaker once said something like:
"When hunting big game don't be distracred by rabbit tracks!"
The native people have serious issues that must be worked out and I support them in that, but this protest movement seems to be lacking in focus. Too many rabbit tracks!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM

From Calgary Sun, as linked above:


Calgary Sun Tuesday

by Ezra Levant

January 8 2013 08, 2013 02:54 AM MST

Master media manipulator: Chief Spence knew what she was doing when she pulled her dieting stunt in Ottawa rather than Attawapiskat.


"A new audit of the Attawapiskat Indian reserve was released Monday. It was shocking.

The accounting firm of Deloitte randomly chose 505 financial transactions, between April 1, 2005 and Nov. 30, 2011, to review. They found "81% of files did not have adequate supporting documents and over 60% had no documentation of the reason for payment."

A lot of that money was supposed to go to housing. Attawapiskat is the reserve where some houses have leaky roofs, poor insulation, broken plumbing and are generally unfit for habitation. But Deloitte wrote, "There is no evidence of due diligence in the use of public funds, including the use of funds for housing."

Deloitte can't find where the money went. But maybe the long list of people on the band's rich payroll might know, starting with Theresa Spence, the chief, or her boyfriend, Clayton Kennedy, who just happens to be the town's financial manager. He bills the band $850 a day to manage their finances.

In fact, there are 21 politicians on the band payroll. Plus plenty of full-time staff. But Deloitte didn't find that reassuring: "Attawapiskat First Nation did not provide us with any job descriptions for individuals who are involved in the financial management of funding agreements."

The band doesn't even produce annual budgets. High school football teams have budgets. The band council doesn't keep regular minutes of their meetings, either. Ordinary band members can't find out what their politicians are doing. (Spence, in a news release Monday, dismissed the audit's release as "no more than a distraction from the true issue" and said it was an attempt to "discredit" her.)

So what does this all look like, if you pour $100 million through such a system, as the federal government has done since 2005? Well, here are a few of the findings in Deloitte's sample of 505 transactions.

In September, 2011, at the height of the housing crisis, they spent $4,333 on breakfast supplies. No documentation. No contract, no invoice.

In April of 2011, a "consultant" got paid $303,256. The identity of the consultant is not known. The documentation is incomplete.

What kind of consultant did Attawapiskat need for $303,256 last year? In the middle of a housing crisis? Was it a roofing consultant? Someone to develop a roofing strategy? Is that why they didn't have money to actually hire a roofer?

There are many of these employment contracts — often six figures, always anonymous.

Another common one is "other purchases." One was for $87,150. Auditor's note: "Occurrence questionable." Was anything even bought? Who knows?

Countless money was spent on legal fees. One payment was for $68,910 — lawyer unknown, no supporting documentation. Was it band business? Or maybe someone's divorce?

What about a real estate deal three years ago for

$1.1 million? But it's an Indian reserve. The band already owns all the land. And the vendor is anonymous. There was zero supporting documentation. Was this $1.1 million property deal even in Attawapiskat? Or was it in Florida?

There are a flurry of these property purchases — all secret, no street address or even a general geographic location given.Eighty-one percent of the files the auditor checked are this way. Not 1% or 2%. This isn't an error. It's a way of life.

If the people involved had Italian names and were from the Montreal construction industry, or French-Canadian names from Montreal ad agencies, instead of Indian "consultants" from Attawapiskat, there would be resignations and criminal charges flying.

But it would be racist to ask tough questions of Chief Spence and her boyfriend. And, she's so close to starving herself, it would be mean, too.

Is Stephen Harper really going to meet with her on Friday? Shouldn't the RCMP do so first?"

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:53 PM

Some of my close friends who are status, feel that the non status group waters down their rights and view these folks as more "whites".

Another close friend, who is active in the "warrier society", once said to me:

""while I do not support "non status" rights, I will defend any non-status person if they are harassed by whites because of their first nations blood - blood that we share"".

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:42 PM

"Were they negotiated in good faith in the first place? Who knows? What can the Government of Canada do about it today if they weren't?"

SFA

"So now the unseemly struggle begins over how many aboriginal ancestors qualifies an individual as Aboriginal ... The technical expression is "blood quantum.""

It is well defined in law.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:32 PM

I knew this decisionwas likely coming down this week, and suspected it would go that way,
Charmion.

Good questions are does this water down the aboriginal right, and how will the status folks and gov't deal with it (beyond the appeal, which likely will be upheld)?

In some Cdn locations the decision may be less significant than in others. But, I suspect many folks will be mining their ancestry carefully, in anticipation that it may financially benefit them and their kids....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:20 PM

And the lead story on The CBC news this evening is the judicial decision on the status of Metis pele and non-status Indians. It will take a lot of working out but the bottom line is that all aboriginal pele are entitled to the same level of federal benefits.

So now the unseemly struggle begins over how many aboriginal ancestors qualifies an individual as Aboriginal ... The technical expression is "blood quantum."

You heard it here first.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:13 PM

My first fear in seeing the thread title, was that Eric Idle had passed and it was an Mudcat Obit. I am now relieved that it is not so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:07 PM

IMO, they should be merged-linked into one, as others mostly are linked - regardless of the topic, personalities or personal perspectives.

Should we all be catered to individually, if we want to be, so we can have our own separate thread - about, basically the same thing?

Good questions for the future management approach of Mudcat - which caters to many views from many countries, unique personalities and perspectives.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:01 PM

I was hoping for (American) "Idol no More"

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:40 PM

Here is an interesting perspective in the recent audit of the reserve, where Spence is chief and an editorial separating the Audit from the other issues, not related to Spence.


Commentary on the audit of Attawapiskat spending

Attawapiskat audit is no excuse for denying native grievances: Editorial

On today's news radio reports I have heard a number of perspecties.

One is concern about the desperate conditions and low income on the reserve and the high spending and salaries of the political folks (and associated), led by Spence.

Accusations that the government released the audit because of the hunger strike - though I understand it has been in the works for some time.

Comments that Spence is a master politician, and began the hunger strike as a political move to divert attention to the damaging audit (that she knew was coming), which documents very poor practices under her elected term.

Many comments regarding the lack of financial accountability under Spenc's leadership.


IMO, Spence and her elected political council made a bad mistake in not responding or talking with reporters on this matter-which they should have had knowlede of and prepared for.

IMO, the native movement is wise by steering a wide path from this and the Spence administration, and directly focus strategy for the upcoming meeting and developing a "united voice" long unresolved native social, economic and governance issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:30 PM

And there's that.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:14 PM

Today commentary from another notableCanadian National affairs columniest:

Meeting with Harper won't settle aboriginal people's problems:


Andrew Coyne

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:54 PM

Sorry. Federal Court, not Supreme Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 01:49 PM

The Mikisew First Nation and Frog Lake FN (both from Alberta) are putting challenges to parts of both Bill C-38 and C-45 before the Supreme Court, specifically the parts that changes the Navigable Waterways Protection Act. I wish them luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 12:13 PM

Sorry, Dave -- that's the Globe and Mail for ya. If you're not a paying subscriber, they whisk their content away at the first opportunity. I'll avoid linking to them in future.

The main point Jeffery Simpson raises is that the Government of Canada inherited the responsibilities of the Crown in Canada, including the original treaties with the First Nations. Were they negotiated in good faith in the first place? Who knows? What can the Government of Canada do about it today if they weren't? Well, isn't that the sixty-four thousand dollar question?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 11:45 AM

Two good articles, Charmion, in helping me understand what is going on but 2 of them have had the content removed already :-( I was surprised to see the following -

Chief Spence, leading a group or "nation" of about 1,500 people on the shores of James Bay, demanded at the beginning of her strike a series of meetings with the Governor-General and the Prime Minister. This demand reflected a very old and very wrong idea (part of dream-palace thinking) that the "Crown" is somehow an independent agency with which aboriginal "nations" have a direct relationship, whereas the "Crown" is nothing of the sort.

The "Crown" is the Government of Canada, a matter of clearly established constitutional law, which is why Chief Spence made her demand to meet the Prime Minister, too. Stephen Harper was correct in refusing a face-to-face meeting, since a prime minister should not be blackmailed into doing what any group or individual wants. On Friday, however, he did agree to meet soon with a group of aboriginal leaders that could include Chief Spence.

Looks like people got things wrong on both sides, which returns us to the importance of making sure things are done correctly in the first place!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:23 AM

I was previously unaware of this, but from looking at the Idle No More webpage, it's interesting to note that the Idle No More campaign - as a grassroots people's movement - asserts it's independence from all chiefs, including Spence.

This seems like an important distinction to me - particularly if, as has been implied - there has been any financial iffyness to be found among indigenous leaders; which tbh wouldn't be exactly shocking, for 'leaders' the world over, including among oppressed and poor communities, abuse their position for personal gain.

Glad to see a new thread too, the old one was getting, old..

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM

If you believe the subject is important, post about it.
If you believe you're more important than the subject, and wish to use Mudcat as your personal "steel cage", please don't bother.

The thread is about Idle No More, and issues related.
You either care about it or not. Show us which.

Personal sniping will likely (hopefully) be deleted from here on out.

Subject: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 05:56 PM

Idle No More Actions: Why the Natives are at the Point of Outrage
©by Doug George-Kanentiio
Akwesasne Mohawk

"There are good reasons for Canada's Native people to be at the point where frustration, impatience and anger rush together in a blend of powerful emotions bordering on rage.

It is to the credit of Native people that they have adopted peaceful, non-confrontational tactics as they march across highways and bridges or gather in malls and city centres in flash mobs to let the nation know they will no longer accept the dictates of the federal government, that the time has come to compel Canada to abide by its treaty obligations and remove the shackles of the Indian Act.

When Canada adopted the United Nations Declaration of Indigenous Rights on November 12, 2010 it committed itself to working in partnership to secure the health, safety, self sufficiency and prosperity of Natives while acknowledging an inherent right for aboriginal peoples to make their own decisions and manage their own affairs.

Bill C-45, now federal law, was enacted in direct contradiction to the Declaration as it assumes the federal government has the ultimate right to decide how Native lands may be developed or indigenous title extinguished. It makes it easier for band councils to open their territories for exploitation while omitting any mention of the federal government's treaty obligations. It further entrenches the authority of the band council system to undermine, manipulate and extinguish treaties or aboriginal land title with the compliance of the minister of Indian Affairs.

The people are upset because the lack of consultation in the passage of Bill C-45. They are angry because they believe the federal government is removing environmental protection from millions of hectares of land, much of which was taken from Native people in breach of treaty and aboriginal land title. These areas may well be subject to formal land claims or considered an essential element of an indigenous economy and lifestyle which is intimately tied to the environment. By waiving environmental protection those lands will inevitably be exploited by domestic and foreign companies without the need to consider the effects on aboriginal people or the natural world.

There is anger at the empowerment of a band council system which is alien to how Natives governed their affairs prior to the arrival of the Europeans. As contemporary research has proven Natives had their own way of administering to human needs in a manner which insured the ecological integrity and health of their lands. For thousands of years Native governments oversaw trade, delivered services, provided security and worked to sustain a culture and lifestyle within specific jurisdictional areas. That they had the right and capacity to do so was obviously acknowledged by the European colonial powers through formal treaties, that most fundamental of contracts between sovereign nations. By entering into treaties or trade compacts the Europeans recognized that Native nations were their equal under international law and under that law the unilateral breach of a treaty returns the signatory nations to their previous condition. As the demonstrators have said, Canada is free to abrogate its treaties with Natives but in doing so the land and all of its resources revert back to its former aboriginal status.

For decades non-Native academics, politicians and writers have sought to obscure the complexity and sophistication of aboriginal culture before and during the colonial era. They have used profane language and images in labeling Native people and as a matter of formal policy sought to destroy aboriginal identity. After the treaty era concluded the physical, intellectual, social and spiritual abuse of Native people was accentuated and became a shameful part of Canadian history. Whatever was left of indigenous self determination was wiped out to be replaced by an inefficient, corrupt and alien form of local administration-the band council.

These councils were imposed upon Natives to replace the indigenous governments, often at force of arms. They had nothing to do with the traditional governing methods but instead enacted a system of absolute reliance on the federal government which retains, even to this day, the power to veto any law or action undertaken by the band councils. That such entities are not reflective of indigenous principles of governance is another source of anger for Native people. That these councils are inefficient and often corrupt, created in part to extinguish treaties and make fatal compromises on resource development is a primary concern of most Natives who are infuriated that the federal government is now prepared to give these colonial entities even greater opportunity to exploit their own people.

But what do Natives want? Start with by rescinding the Indian Act followed by a series of national Native congresses to replace the band councils with genuinely aboriginal governments. Make a firm, unqualified commitment to abide by treaties and acknowledge these contracts as agreements between sovereign entities. Break the destructive reliance on federal money by regional resource management agencies based upon open commerce with free trade among Native nations. Have the UN Declaration of Indigenous Rights made into federal law and binding on all provinces and agencies including the Native nations themselves. Work with Native people as they revive their ancestral governments and re-establish regional confederacies. Acknowledge that Native nations have the right to develop their own resources independent of federal interference and remove "Crown land" status across the nation.    And recognize that there is a need to place more resources into removing the myths and lies which have distorted aboriginal history through the creation of a National Aboriginal Museum in Ottawa."

Idle No More - Facebook page

Idle No More - Main site

Some 'history' on Idle No More

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 03:54 PM

Thank you Charmion, for your links and for summing up some points so well.

I suspect (from viewing happenings from the sidelines) that there are environmental activists (and others with thorny side issues) riding on the shirt-tails of legitimate Aboriginal concerns. Hopefully, the Aboriginal leaders are wise (which I know they are) and will see this, and choose to focus on issues that are the most pressing for the Aborginal community with this recent opportunity.

Though it seems real, it is hard to fathom how anyone with a smidgen of sense could blame all of the Aboriginal issues, some that have been with us for many moons, on one man and one Canadian administration. Go figure.

However, you are correct that a growing number of Canadians, those who actually matter in this discussion, want to wrong some historic (and current) wrongs. I am proud to say that I am one of those Canadians, who stands in friendship with my fellow Aboriginal Canadians.. I am confidentthat the growing number of Canadians with a similar conviction will have a much greater impact on success then the "chatter" from the sidelines.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 12:51 PM

Here's some current comment by three of Canada's most prominent national affairs columnists:

Canada leaves Aboriginal hopes to incubate in misery by Michael den Tandt of the National Post

Too many First Nations people live in a dream palace by Jeffery Simpson of the Globe and Mail

Education reform to trump property rights in First Nations' talks with Tories by John Ibbitson of the Globe and Mail

The Globe website also offers this editorial from 4 January:

A regrettable hunger strike brings about a desirable meeting of minds

The consensus of opinion among the better class of journalists in this country, conservative and liberal alike, is that the current system is, indeed, criminally bad for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 12:32 PM

For the World...and for this Thread....

David R Maracle - Universal Healing

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

from today's CBC .. Attawapiskat audit finds 'no evidence of due diligence'

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:14 AM

I don't know if the over-the-top stuff helped. It's possible that first there was a loud noise, and then people listened for the voices behind it. Was the loud noise necessary?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:08 AM

Like 999, gnu and, possibly, Ed T, I am an old-stock Canadian with aboriginal relatives. Like them, I am deeply distressed by the dysfunctional relations between the First Nations and the federal government of Canada. Like them, I believe that shrill railing from beyond our borders will do the square root of zero good.

Prime Minister Harper is not particularly sensitive to the daily variations in public opinion; he has a majority government to indicate the opinions of those who matter -- the people who voted in this country on the last election day. Because he has scheduled a meeting with First Nations leaders, and invited Chief Spence, I assume that his Cabinet colleagues and close advisors have recommended this course of action. I note that the agenda for this meeting covers some difficult ground -- specifically, where so much federal government money went with so little to show for it -- as well as some important governance and liaison issues.

The blockade tactics adopted by First Nations protesters have achieved nothing of benefit to anyone. Yes, the situation of many bands is completely unacceptable, but that won't change because the VIA Rail train was stopped on the main line between Toronto and Montreal, or the traffic was prevented from crossing the Peace Bridge at Cornwall.

What had more influence on bringing an end to the U.S. involvement in Viet Nam: the Weather Underground blowing up banks, or middle-class people telling Congress in hundreds of different ways that they wanted the troops home?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:27 AM

No, I certainly don't "trust you" Lizz, nor your interpretation of world political events, including democracy in Canada, where I am a proud citizen. And yes, your thread title is insulting and rude-regardless if I as a Canadian support or voted for the current administration or not. You can't squirm out of that one, or dismiss it as unimportant. I have an idea, "think of someone beyond yourself before you "cut and pastie" thread titles", if that does not take too much time from your broader "cut and pastie" initiatives.


BTW, I have no 2 buddies, as you state. It is one of the many illusions you have created in your mind. Your disputes with other are your disputes, that I detect you have hard-earned, though I note your tendancy to lump all people together-what a crock you present.


Liz, I do not need any advice from your example on stimulating change. If more people used your approach, there would be few disputes anywhere resolved.

Change will occur in Canada, but not because of "cut and pastie" initiatives from rude and unfocused ninnies such as you. IMO, while possibly well-meaning, your contribution to these initiatives is in reality meaningless. I would advise you to "take stock" and focus on doing something meaningful, instead of pretending you are impacting something by "riding on the shirt-tails of an internet merry-go round with others -and posting it here.

And yes, you can quote me as calling you "a ninnie", cause I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:06 AM

"My first post was accurate versus rude as to the value of your Mudcat petititions and your rude and insulting thread title - both to the democratic process in Canada and to Canadians who value democracy, as I do. Substantial change is certainly in order, and overdue, but your title is a clear insult, especially given your limited insight (from your posts) of all the related factors."

This title is NOT rude. It is also the title of the petition, for keriste's sake! STOP nit-picking over inane things! Go into OTHER threads and tell THEM off for THEIR titles, but for fuck's sake get OFF my back!

Stephen Harper has single-handedly managed to lower Canada's reputation around the world. He is as big an idiot and even more of a danger than Bush ever was. He is a Corporate Puppet and is intent on selling Canada to the Highest Bidder.

Once, not very long ago either, Canada was looked up to around the world. Now, it is being led by a baffoon, as are so many other countries, including my own.

Stuff your 'Democratic Process', for Canada has become an Oligarchy, NOT a Democracy. Many countries are the same now, including the UK...It's called The New World Order..

It is taking the First Nations of your country to wake you all up.   I suggest you join them..and then use your words for supporting them in every way possible, rather than wasting them to insult me, for I've been chased around the internet for YEARS by folks like you..and I learnt long ago how to answer back.

If you DON'T 'Get Harper OUT' then trust me, your country will cease to exist as the True Canada in a few more years..and as her Lakes and Rivers, Lands and Mountains are sold to the Corporate Bastards, Canada will lose more and more of her Once Golden reputation...

The Tar Sands has already done grave damage to that reputation.

You need to start seeing this world without borders, without countries..for what is being done in Canada affects us all. What is happening in Brazil affects us ALL. We are one Species living on ONE planet, and I CARE about the future of my children!   So ANY bastard who is intent on devastating their future for Greed and Power I will do my best to rise up against.

Start fighting for the Seven Generations to come and STOP fighting with me!..

And stop asking for this thread to be closed when it is YOU and your 2 buddies who are doing all the shit-sitrring in here in the first place, just get out of the thread and then peace will return.

Dana Lone Hill:
"...you gain momentum with every soul you meet that don't give a shit about their future generations, it makes you fight harder for change. Because you never give up on hoping they too will see the light. That they will see what we do here and now will affect the next seven generations, whether that be for better or worse.

See, really I can't tell you how not to be an activist. Because I care. And I think you do too. However, I will not give up on that awakening of your soul, when I think someday you will realize, enough is enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:16 AM

999- Perhaps ""misguided moral passion is better than confused indifference"", but, in my opinion, not by much - especially if it is combined with arrogance and disrespect.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:07 AM

Lizzz- BTW In your first post in this thread to me, you accused me of calling you "stupid. The record will show that I never used that word.

However, since you introduced it into the discussion, not I, I have wondered (as I read your posts) if you consciously or subconsciously intrioduced the word in "a Fraudian slip" and that you know something that we do not?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:53 AM

Lizzzz:

My first post was accurate versus rude as to the value of your Mudcat petititions and your rude and insulting thread title - both to the democratic process in Canada and to Canadians who value democracy, as I do. Substantial change is certainly in order, and overdue, but your title is a clear insult, especially given your limited insight (from your posts) of all the related factors.

It is you that have consistantly tried to limit debate in this thread and others by putting your one-sided position forward that your keyboard tactics from another country,actually made any difference. You have tried to get others from posting anything outside your (wet)dream.

No, I won't be silenced by someone who puts little logic forward and listens to no one except anyone who parrots her own beliefs. Yes I will continue to stimulate logical debate and if you act like a bitch, I will treat you like one, - disrespect intended.

I am surprised that you have never noticed that you are a magnet for insults? I am surprised that you have never considerd the actual reasons why. Consider that it is not any of the the movements you "pretend" to have a great international influence over, your behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM

I did try Facebook and it bit me... hundreds of people wanted me to be their friend. Most of them were strangers to me and some were people I knew but thought were strange. I also heard many sroies re what Bruce said. I left. I have PMing here, email, Messenger, phone, internet phone, private chat groups... don't need Facebook or the headaches.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 05:15 AM

Love you too, Bruce...but yup, I'm afraid I'll stand aside, in fact, a LONG way back, when it comes to loving them.

Ed, baby, YOU started this, not me. Go back and look at your first rude and pedantic post. You don't like what I write? Then DON'T read it. That's surely not hard for a very smart guy to get his around, is it? And with regard to your 'bitch' comment, hey, if you can't take it, then don't dish it out. But you do NOT have the right, in my book, to be so damned rude to me, without me coming back to you on what you have said.

gnu, just try getting yourself a Facebook page and CONNECT to the world. Go on, try it and see. Facebook won't bite you! And you can always walk away from it if it's not your thing. All you need to do is type into the FB search box, at the top of your page, any name of any Movement, Politician, Friend, Business, Media Outlet, Subject, etc. that you wish to find.

New one to me, just been sent it this morning: 'Idle No More' Global Day of Action, Solidarity and Resurgence

Official FB page: Main 'Idle No More' FB page

And this one, which hopefully, FB will soon remove, but it shows the other side of this...

Idle No More Resistance - A page for the Racist Bastards

Another page sent to me this morning: Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence Hunger Strike

Of course, you're going to need to be ON Facebook to access those links...but I've put them there just to show you a tiny fraction of what's going on in there at present with regard to the Idle No More movement...

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:58 PM

As a BTW, Ed T is erudite, incisive and very smart. gnu is a good-hearted, intelligent and up-front man (whom I wish would capitalize his screen name), and Liz is both smart and passionate about the causes in which she believes. We all fight battles in personal ways. The problem too often is we fight those battles among ourselves. Therein we may find DOH!

Love the lot of you even if you detest each other.

Here is a great song; worth a listen. Says lots in few words.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:51 PM

I meant thread be closed down, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:50 PM

Unless such personal insults end, I suggest this post be closed down, as some of Liz's have been before.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:47 PM

In the words of my ancestors, "Fuckin' Ida."

Ed, gnu and Liz, let's relax.

I like and respect all of you. You are all three my friends, as is Greg.

1) I said that Facebook works from time to time.
2) I said (or implied anyway) that Facebook sucks.
3) I said we should all get along since we're on the same side.
4) This shit happened in the late 1960s/early 1970s. It destroyed us.

Love, peace and sardines.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:44 PM

And, rude bitches are rude bitches, and you keep proving it.

Max, Joe Offer-If you don't start reining Liz in on using Mudcat to spread her personal insults to others,it likely will get worse:(

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:34 PM

http://www.idlenomore.com/, but like other movements these days, the up-to-the-minute notices work better on social media than a website. Websites are best for information that doesn't change much. With outlets such as Twitter or Facebook, they send an update to their subscribers/followers in seconds.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:03 PM

Gotta follow up on sommat 9 said.

I don't do Face for the resons he stated. So, LC, where do I go?

I emailed, as I sated earlier, the big chief (Maliseet) here in my Province, and got no response.

My Native friends told me about the protest downtown. I went. There were so few of them and fewer pale and that may have been because of what I said before. What is the link to the MAIN website for Idle No More, LC? How do people join in? Why is this so complicated for people for people who want to join in this protest?