BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Apr 13 - 04:04 PM

we have established what happened ,and we can see that dawkins did not debate safarti.you posted link without realizing the content.as i originally said,- dawkins dont debate creationists[unless they are not qualified scientists]
wishing you a speedy recovery.pete.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:39 PM

""don t thankyou for conceding that you posted a misleading,vulgar,crude voiceover link which was not a "debate",inadvertantly because you were to busy to check what you posted.nothing wrong with that i suppose.we all make mistakes.""

Call me a pedant, but I don't recall conceding anything of the sort. Had I looked at it I might have conceded what you said.

All I did was to state that I hadn't looked at it.

Make of that whatever you like, but not by putting words in my mouth that never came from it.

Incidentally, being laid fairly low by a throat infection, which is playing hell with my emphysema, I still haven't looked at it.

Don T.

PS. You really must try to establish some connection, however tenuous, with the English language.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Apr 13 - 06:02 AM

well steve,the bible does describe certain people that so harden their hearts that they put themselves beyond repentance and the judgment of God confirms them in that state.of course we dont know who they are and dont give up.

don t thankyou for conceding that you posted a misleading,vulgar,crude voiceover link which was not a "debate",inadvertantly because you were to busy to check what you posted.nothing wrong with that i suppose.we all make mistakes.
pete.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 11:04 AM

""i had the great joy on sunday of witnessing a young woman being baptized who was atheist till last year.i wonder if there is hope yet for mudcat materialists! maybe,,,they are just too hardened.""

1. Don't make assumptions! The opposite of Creationist is not Materialist, whatever you may think.

2. I strongly suspect that if you scratched a Materialist with a YEC Creationist, its the Materialist who would be damaged, as probably would a diamond.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 10:23 AM

How could my extremely intelligent friend be so close to 100% sure that what he believed was true? Because "It's just something you know deep down, like you know the sky is blue and you need to eat food to live and move your legs to walk."

Then how can so many people not believe?

"I don't know. Maybe they've deliberately suppressed their faith so they can do whatever they feel like. Maybe they're misusing reason to justify their own sinning. They've been doing it for so long they've forgotten how they started."

What about Muslims and Jews and others? "Any religion that teaches a sound morality may be better than none in the eyes of God. But way deep down non-Christians may know they're in error, that their religions are at best incomplete. I can't really answer the question."

Is the bible literally true? "What's obviously meant to be literally true is literally true. What's meant to be symbolic is symbolically
true. Humans wrote it, so even though God directed them in general it isn't perfect. The crucial things like the Ten Commandments and the Resurrection are absolutely true."

Did God hand Moses the Commandments carved on stone tablets? "I don't know. I wasn't there. He could have if he wanted to. He's God. Or he could have just inspired Moses."

How about Noah's ark? "I wasn't there. I wouldn't take the story literally, but symbolically it's true." What does it symbolize? "God ultimately punishes the wicked and saves the good."

Do you believe in evolution? "Sure I do." Why? "There's too much scientific evidence not to, and I don't see how it really conflicts with any crucial teachings."   

What about people who think it does? "They're wrong."

I believe that my friend is more or less typical of serious, church-going Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 09:15 AM

The border is about 5 miles from Bude on the Holsworthy road, and being a few miles outside could not put you much further from it.
More likely closer.

Further. I live on the Camelford side of Bude. And I never use that road. If I'm driving out of Cornwall I always use either the A39 northbound (25 minutes at least to the Woolley turning) or the A39 nine miles south to Otterham Station, turn left, left again at Wilsey Down on the A395, a good few miles over Cold Northcott (lovely views across to Bodmin Moor) to Pipers Pool and shortly thereafter to the eastbound A30. 40 minutes before I get into Devon that way. You have a point, though no-one in their right mind knowingly goes to Holsworthy. Thanks for your interest.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 09:00 AM

""don t - i see you went straight to the primary source to dis sarfati - not!.that link to " debate" does you no credit at all.""

I went to Wikipedia, which I know, can be inaccurate, but can easily be straightened out by the person himself. The fact that he has failed to take any such action rather suggests that he has no answer.

On numerous occasions I have seen people complain of inaccuracy, when they didn't like or agree with what was posted.

The link, I didn't watch! Merely pointed out that apparently there was a debate. I was too busy organising a four day Folk & Ale to do more.

Perhaps you will tell me what was wrong with that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 08:37 AM

""The same goes for churches. You don't have to agree with everything in a given church to stay associated with it. You don't have to agree with every point of its dogma.""

Ah, but the point is that I have looked around and reached a few conclusions, which are:-

1. The Catholic Church didn't want me unless I blithely accepted all its teachings and the same applied to others who were questioning.

When I ask a question, it's because I genuinely want to know the answer, and there were damn few of those, but more than a sufficiency of punishments for not having sufficient faith.

I know there are good people in the Catholic Church I'm not stupid, but, with notable exceptions, they tend to be the ones who can swallow the blurb whole, and get on with being good.

2. I looked at other Churches and absent the pomp and panoply, didn't see sufficient difference.

3. I had always known that I could pray anywhere, so concluded not only that I didn't need a church or a preacher, but that God didn't either.

Q.E.D.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 08:16 AM

Steve, you must have a very slow car.
The border is about 5 miles from Bude on the Holsworthy road, and being a few miles outside could not put you much further from it.
More likely closer.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 07:45 AM

maybe,,,they are just too hardened.

Well that isn't very Christian of you, is it! Aren't you supposed to be like the shepherd who puts all his energy into restoring his one lost sheep to the flock? You don't do a very good job, I can tell you!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Apr 13 - 06:35 AM

been away over easter.
ebbie - i am not disrepecting anyone ,at least not itntentionally.but neither am i gonna be pedantic over grammer when i am not a fast typer.yes i do use capitals when i refer to God,and you will have to indulge me if i dont put you in the same category!
it somewhat amuses me that i am charged with rudeness,while other posters [mostly atheist but excepting bill] spue out vulgarity,insults and profanity by the bucketload.
if this explanation is not to your satisfaction, i suggest you ignore ignore my posts - i shall not be offended in the least.that is what i do with posts that are truly offensive.
had i capitalized my own name you might have grounds for dissing you by ommittimg capitals .

jack- you made me smile again.while i think the accusation against you is unfounded re insiting hatred, you do disrepect steve,though im sure you can make a case for that being deservedly so!

i had the great joy on sunday of witnessing a young woman being baptized who was atheist till last year.i wonder if there is hope yet for mudcat materialists! maybe,,,they are just too hardened.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:34 PM

Sailor Jack's a Christian. Ha ha !

Sailor Jack's no Christian. He's just brought Christianity into total disrepute by posting hatred on a new thread. I predict a long period of embarrassed non-support from real Christians. Ugh.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:29 PM

Not when you live in the depths of Cornwall it doesn't
"Bude?
Only just in Cornwall!"

What a prick. I live four miles outside Bude and almost a half hour's drive from the Devon border. The nearest village (no pub, no shop) is two miles away, the nearest small town is four miles away, the nearest large town (if you call Barnstaple a large town) is an hour's drive, and similar for the nearest emergency hospital. Keith, piss off back to your hate-Palestine threads, please.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:01 PM

I'm told by someone with a doctorate (not in religious studies) that Heaven and Hell are exactly what the bible says they are: opposite destinations in the afterlife.

However, they exist in a "different dimension," so to speak, so you can't fly or dig to them.

When you're in one, after death, you'll know instantly which.

Since God is loving and all-forgiving, it may be possible for certain non-Christians to go to Heaven, but my friend does not recommend testing the theory.

When I asked him how sure he was of these things, he replied, "Close to 100%. I can't say absolutely 100% only because this life is the only one I've actually experienced."

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 07:24 PM

Ya know, apparently, there does come a time when all actually is said and done.

Amen.

For those who don't know, look it up. For those that do know...

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:12 PM

You read it but you asked the question as if you hadn't?

Carry on schoolboy.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

Well we children want our say now.

Sailor Jack's a Christian. Ha ha ! We'll beat him up at playtime ha ha!

Christianity is just about all from other religions, not just the threat and promise bits of controlling people. Although on balance, the bastards seem far more efficient at it than the other religions... I love the quote from Archbishop Desmond Tutu when he said that "when the white men came, they had the Bible and we had the land. They invited us to close our eyes and pray. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land."

I had read it 'you prat'. My question still stands. The other examples indicate places other than this world but do they all use them as carrot and stick? Are they all of the threat and promise variety?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

Not when you live in the depths of Cornwall it doesn't
Bude?
Only just in Cornwall!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:39 PM

"
I have read the threads. My question was rhetorical you prat, to draw out the debate as it was getting very defensive by those with a superstitious claim on heaven and hell. "

No you haven't read that thread. there was a detailed discussion of the origins of the concept of heaven and Hell being from other religions in the first part of the thread when the adults were having their say.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:16 AM

"Stood on the cop behind the goal.)..."
.,,.

Hope he didn't complain about your weight, Musket. Or did he nick you?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:31 AM

Why do some 'groan' men like watching other 'groan' men kicking a ball about?

Well at least it's a damn sight better than that game played by men with oval balls.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:16 AM

Not when you live in the depths of Cornwall it doesn't. Unless you really expect me to support Argyle? Jaysus...

And shirley I was permitted to go right off Burnley when I discovered that Alastair Campbell supported 'em? Have you no pity?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:09 AM

Yeah. Fully agree Shimrod.

However, we are discussing football now. Kicking a ball about helps the odd idle moment but what the hell (or heaven) has it to do with this thread?

Up the Owls!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM

Groan!!

Why do some 'groan' men like watching other 'groan' men kicking a ball about?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:56 AM

Aye and come 1966 we got to the final. I was too young to go but recall it well listening on the radio. Pity Everton beat us... My confirmation was the1969 - 70 season when I got my own pew. (Stood on the cop behind the goal.)

Of course I remain bemused how you can say you support a team and then you say you support another? You don't choose your team. Your team chooses you.

That's real religion. ...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:50 AM

When I were nobbut a lad oop north I were a Burnley supporter (it was where me grandad, me dad and me uncles came from), and I will never forget the early 60s FA quarter-final replay in which we knocked out Sheffield Wednesday 2-0, the goals being scored by Jimmy McIlroy (the greatest footballer who ever lived) and Jimmy Robson. You had to be there - and I was!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Musket
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:40 AM

Has to said I suppose.. 89 mins in a cup final, 1.0 to your team... There aren't many atheists in the stadium.....

SWFC v MUFC 1991. Wembley place of Worship.   I was that pilgrim....

Whenever I read "latterday saints," I still think of John Sheridan.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:25 AM

"Don't just say God - say Shankly"

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:19 AM

But it's all relative ~~ the weekend was heaven for me coz Arsenal won, but hell for Emma coz Chelsea didn't.

Shimrod ~~ don't forget the famous graffito: "Jesus saves ~~ but Gervinho scores on the rebound".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:31 AM

The thread petered out ages ago. Im just pointing it out.

Anyway, to normal well adjusted people football is heaven hence appropriate for this thread. At least it exists...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:13 AM

Why has this thread petered out into a tedious load of drivel about f***ing football? I can get that anywhere - newspapers, the radio, TV, the Internet, toilet walls and probably, very soon, beamed directly into my f***ing brain, whether I want it or not! Now there's a vision of Hell!!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:41 AM

I have read the threads. My question was rhetorical you prat, to draw out the debate as it was getting very defensive by those with a superstitious claim on heaven and hell.

Steve, you poor deluded chap. Gerrard impressed me last Tuesday to be fair so it was to be expected he was going to be on form. However, for a truly holy experience you need a local derby and a bit of tyke bashing. The atmosphere in the cathedral, the cradle of worship since 1867 was superior to anything experienced in the false prophet church of Anfield. Mind you, you were playing away. And on that subject I'm off to pick up my lads and head down to Bristol. Heady stuff this heaven lark..

Up the Owls!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:55 PM

"Just out of interest, does anyone know if other religions have an equivalent of heaven and hell, or is it just the christian cult?"

If you'd bothered to read this thread....

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:30 PM

Bollocks! Heaven (had I been able to go) would be to have been at Villa Park this afternoon to see Stevieboy picking holes in Lambert's benighted boys...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:37 PM

I prefer the other religious threads on the go at the moment. Especially the one where Sailor Jack puts me in the same boat as Dawkins. Hope I can live up to it.

Just out of interest, does anyone know if other religions have an equivalent of heaven and hell, or is it just the christian cult? (And then only certain sects, as I am aware Jehova's Witnesses don't subscribe to the hell bit.)

Heaven by the way was being at Hillsborough yesterday, thrashing the tykes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

How & when literal belief in Hell disappeared from Catholicism is one of the main themes of David Lodge's clever novel about a group of Catholics from 1950s-80s & the doctrinal changes they lived thru in those years, 'How Far Can You Go?', pub 1980. (US title - 'Souls & Bodies', I think). I have recently reread it, and it stands up pretty well.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:38 AM

According to a survey carried out in Ireland, published in the Irish Sunday Times, the majority of Catholics here no longer believe in Hell - they couldn't have visited Birmingham!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:46 PM

I'll swear I heard John Wayne saying, at the foot of the cross, "Truly this man was the son of Gawd..."

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:39 PM

Ebbie.. if you have listened to certain evangelist preachers, you may have noted that is is common to pronounce 'God' as if it were the most ostentatious word in the universe...(I suppose it is to them).

It is impossible to do it justice in print, but it is sort of like..
"Goowwadd", done with throat tightened and mouth opened roundly, and the sound held for an extra second. I assume that capitalization is an exercise in 'respect' done out of deference to the idea.

It rather bothers me too, even though I see the intent.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 03:25 PM

Well, I have my answer- in checking some threads I see that pete does capitalize the name of God. It is evident, since he doesn't use capitalization here, that he is displaying his lack of respect for us. And for himself.

Come on, pete.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Claire M
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:34 PM

Hiya,

Heaven is anything that takes me out of myself – a great concert, book, etc., a good chat with someone else who shares my interests.

Hell is a group of nursing homes I ended up staying in. They should be evacuated, shut down & bombed so they can never re-open again.

I'd love to read the Bible – all that burning fire & blood really appeals to me. It just sounds like a very long folk song. Anyone got any recommendations for a kids' version?? My eyes can't cope with the small font. When I was younger my parents took me to this shrine – I was blessed by a nun who gave me a St. Rita, (she's the patron saint of sick/disabled people) which I wished had been a St. Theresa because of the song.

There were candles in red & blue glass things, statues of nasty things happening & a tape of chanting, a bit like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDc2FD-vy8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_jKsQjuCfE

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:50 AM

Ebbie... YOU are GOD? Heheheheee... >;-)

Oh man... I DO SO NEED another cuppa tea!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:00 AM

pete, it's a serious question: Do YOU capitalize the name of God?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:44 PM

Pete... and *I* have posted explanations of very different types of presuppositions.
Assuming that strict rules of scientific investigation are required is very different from assuming that there is one 'book' which owes its existence to a supernatural being.... and that is the basic difference going on.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:42 PM

"emotionally inadequate"

Would you be kind enough to explain what that means?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:01 PM

Intolerance and blind prejudice is a mental crutch for the emotionally inadequate, John.

gnu - No, man! ;-D I don't think I have met one of those Hard Shell Baptist guys...but I've seen them in the movies.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:42 PM

"What is 'Heaven and Hell'?"

Concepts with which we offer rewards or not to our sense of what we consider moral. Most of us die believing that we have succeeded in discerning both, with our enemies consigned to the latter and our humble selves to the former. With just modesty, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:11 PM

bill- every scientist is influenced by presuppositions

Don't worry, Shimrod. Pete has copied and pasted this piece of meaningless drivel from somewhere or other. If you ask him to explain it he won't have a bloody clue what to say.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:55 PM

pete, u r inconsiderate.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:15 PM

"every scientist is influenced by presuppositions ..."

And your point is, pete? How do you define "presupposition"?

There are theories, models and laws out there - but you probably couldn't do science without them. But all science is, in a sense, provisional and subject to constant review. On the other hand, religion is dogmatic, fixed and unchallengeable. But you'll go on and on and on with your idiot project of trying to force God into the 'gaps' whatever I say, won't you, pete?