BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:55 PM

"If rich persons are so unlikely to reach heaven, then the vast majority of folk in the West won't make it."

Yes, that is the way that I think it is. Most people in Western society are like the camel. They are not on a path to the kingdom. Jesus' teachings about our behavior. Loving your neighbour is very hard, especially when you are "fighting" for a promotion or trying to close a sale.

There are American Churches that say that all you have to do is come to their church, pay your tithes and pray and Jesus will reward you with money. I believe that is heresy.   


"And if heaven is a state of mind, what happens when the mind (ie the brain) dies? Does 'consciousness' live on somehow?"

I really don't know. I don't know what The Bible means by "everlasting life." I find it hard to believe that it has anything to do with wings and harps and everyone having a literal mansion on a literal cloud. If it is so, for my happiness, it had better come with a staff that I won't feel guilty about serving me. ;-)

I think I empathize with your students. I have yet to find a description of heaven enticing enough to motivate me. When I was their age, I wondered if was was described to me is all that there was to it. (Sorry about the clumsiness, Though I remember those thoughts and feelings, they are very difficult to put into adult words.) On the other hand, the peace of mind, the state of grace implied in Jesus' teachings is very very compelling.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 01:29 PM

Jack, your interesting answer gives rise to yet more questions. If rich persons are so unlikely to reach heaven, then the vast majority of folk in the West won't make it. We are fabulously rich in comparison to those in dire poverty in the Third World. And if heaven is a state of mind, what happens when the mind (ie the brain) dies? Does 'consciousness' live on somehow? Also, I have to say my pupils in primary school used to find the idea of 'adoring God' endlessly up there terrifically boring! I'm a churchgoer and try to be a good Christian, but sometimes even I can't get my head round a lot of this!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 11:27 AM

Eliza, from what I understand, the person with all the blessing is often less likely to receive the blessings.

I always go back to this passage.

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

First let me say that I am not sure whether "kingdom of God." is the physical place that many people imagine Heaven to be. From my experience it is a State of mind and inner peace that I have felt from time to time and that is enough to motivate me.

In the New Testament the only thing required to enter the "kingdom of God." Is to accept Jesus as your personal savior. Personal experience tells me that it is much much easier to do so once we have hit rock bottom than when we are comfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 10:42 AM

I haven't read all the posts here, so forgive me if I'm merely repeating what others have already said. I accept that there may be a heaven and a hell, although it's obvious they must exist on a different plane as we now know so much about the physical Universe and its limits. What has always troubled me is how one qualifies for entry into heaven. Having been an academic all my life, accustomed to exams and qualifications, it appears one must be 'judged' as fit, by God. (Rather like the Attestation of Fitness I has to gain for entry to Edinburgh Uni!) Now, having studied Moral Philosophy as an extra subject there, I became totally sceptical of the concepts of 'praise', 'blame' 'punishment' and 'reward'. Should a person be rewarded with entry to heaven simply because they've been 'good'? Maybe they had a genetically-determined personality which happily led them to behave well? Maybe they had a stable and good home with all the attendant advantages? Did a 'bad' chap draw the short straw genetically, a sort of closet psychopath? Was he/she abused as a child and turned into a consummate sinner? Does free will really exist? Most prisoners (I've worked with many of them) have had horrendous starts in life and a large proportion are mentally ill too. Why should they go to Hell because of that? Does God 'take into consideration' the disadvantages/lucky breaks before His judgement is made? And what, pray, is the Pass Rate? What are the odds that I'll get in? Seen from this angle, the whole thing becomes ridiculous. I just hope I can 're-sit'the entry exam, as I'll surely fail!
.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:16 AM

I have no idea why that posted twice. Apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:15 AM

Calm down, Michael. I've already bought the teacher off with a 99p Cadbury's mini-egg Easter egg from Morrisons.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:15 AM

Calm down, Michael. I've already bought the teacher off with a 99p Cadbury's mini-egg Easter egg from Morrisons.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM

Whenever the topic goes near religion he says whatever he can to try to anger people.

I say exactly what I think about religion, that's all. I must have said it a dozen times: if a certain category of believers are so happy in their skins with their certainties, they would shrug off those atheists who haven't got the manners to keep conveniently silent. There are certain aspects of our religious heritage that I admire - architecture, art, music, community spirit and more - and I have engaged, and will engage, constructively with anyone who wishes to discuss them. There are even some aspects of belief that I respect (more of a struggle, but I try). Why don't you just try to avoid the perfect fit with the stereotype of the frightened Christian who sees every atheist as a mortal threat and who deserves no more than a session with your attack-dogs?

If you want to really really screw with him pretend that he is making sense.

Perhaps later, darling. One must hasten to buy the fish.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 02:12 AM

'and you can bloody shut up when you're told, Michael!'
.,,.,.
Shan't! Stamp! Scweem! Sulk! And you said bloody and I'm telling teacher of you so there!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 13 - 12:27 AM

Gnu, Its an open forum with rules. Steve is not breaking the rules. Whatever he does or says you have to roll with it.

Whenever the topic goes near religion he says whatever he can to try to anger people. If you want to get even, don't get angry. If you want to really really screw with him pretend that he is making sense. His head will get so big he'll think he is floating above us all like an angel. Then he will say all of these incredibly arrogant, amusing things.

Its all good.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:01 PM

Yeah... it stuck to the point that long because I made it clear from the OP that assholes with poor manners should fuck off. Which begs the point...

Now... I just got another PM from a gentleman (one of the finest I have met herein). Here is my response to him when he said he would post no more to the crap which has sullied this thread...

Don't "abide by my wishes"... do unto othe as you would have them do unto you. Suggest another thread... one of the past ones or a new one. It really is that simple to me.

Thanks, buddy. Your PM means a lot to me. Yer ona a the good guys.
******************************************************************

Steve... not so much.

gnightgnu... unless I get a bunch more PMs and emails... even then, at this point, I think I made my pointssss. I really don't think any newcomers will want to post thier intimate thoughts in a forum where people are so rude no matter what I might add in future. Mqatter of fact, Steve just made my main point for me, again. Thanks, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:50 PM

I hate to agree with Shaw, but If you want the thread to stay on track, we can't read you mind. Tell us what you want.

I'll tell you something else when I was a kid on the playground, I dreamed of being ignored.

So stop throwing a tantrum because you are not getting something you have not clearly asked for.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:38 PM

Dammit, IanC posted a link that contained a reference to the superb fresco in Vank Cathedral. I wanted to reply by linking to my photobucket pic of the incredible mosaic on the back wall of the cathedral in Torcello, Venice, but this website won't let me make a flippin' link! Tell me what to do, somebody! Here's my link anyway. [IMG]http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c268/SteveShaw1951/P1010141_zps7ebbc064.jpg[/IMG] The mosaic is far more impressive than the photo suggests (we weren't allowed to take our own pics so this is a pic of a pic). The large doors at the bottom give an idea of scale. My missus couldn't drag me away. The next day she had the same issue when I stood gawping for over half an hour at a Titian Virgin and Child in the Accademia gallery in Venice.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:22 PM

WTF is wrong with you guys? Your Mamas never slap you upside the head and teach you some fuckin respect and good manners????

I see that irony is apparently completely lost on you.

This thread, apart from the usual spats wot crop up everywhere on this board, has stuck to the point more than most threads this long manage to do. Wassup, mate? Post some good on-topic stuff and keep us on track if you're not happy. You'll be doing yourself a mischief at this rate.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:10 PM

Okay.. 4 PMs (one initiated by me) and six emails. Apparently, I didn't make myself clear. Astounding to me but there it is. To wit...

Why not discuss other topics in this thread?

WHY?

My question was not answered by the next person that opens the thread. That person may not post when they see all the fucking spew bullshit crap that has NOTHING to do with the OP. Come on... surely you can get with that? It's just common sense, no?

The thread is not about what you want it to be about. It is what the subject and title of the thread wants it to be about. NOTHING ELSE. Thread drift within reason?... WELCOME. But HIJACKING AND DESTROYING A THREAD??? (Two in a row! I tried to save the other one and it was dashed again in an instant! I had to leave.)

There are lots of existing threads about the OTHER subjects. OR anyone can start a new one. To hijack my thread(s) and fuck them completely when it isn't at all necessary is EXTREMELY disturbing to me. I feel like a small kid on a school playground surrounded by bullies who taunt me because they feel they can and don't have the fuckin brains to realize that is what they are doing... and they are ding it to EVERYONE who has EVER started a thread herein and then said... fuck these assholes... I AM GONE.. and to anyone considering starting a thread herein. Think about that... you are all sending a message to anyone and everyone who may be thinking about STARTING a thread. Do you really want to send them your message of... piss poor manners?

Sorry if that sounds a bit off the wall or harsh but that is what is in my heart.... TRUE FUCKIN RAGE! Seriuosly... WTF is wrong with you guys? Your Mamas never slap you upside the head and teach you some fuckin respect and good manners????

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 10:09 PM

Dearie me. Jack is the archetypal po-faced provocateur. We do have history, you know. We're OK when he wisely keeps his distance, but he has this habit of weakening and having a pitch every now and then. I know how you love him, despite your protestations (come on now - it can be perfectly manly, you know!), but do try to be even-handed. I'll be disappointed if you turn out not to be, but one will crack on regardless in any case. Northern grit they call it (did I tell you I was a northerner, Michael?)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:50 PM

Steve, I think you're just trying to provoke Jack for your own enjoyment. A bit of sadistic glee can be seen in your remarks. Did you bully other chaps a lot that way back in your school days?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:42 PM

He is a dull-witted sod, though, innit!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:40 PM

I don't love Jack, Steve. ;-) Neither do I hate him. He's somewhere in that moderate middle area between the volatile extremes such as love and hate. After all, I've only met him once. He seemed like an okay guy at the time. I have to be around people (in real 3D life) for quite a long time before I can genuinely say I love them.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:16 PM

I took the joke as a good-natured hint to Steve that a little humility might be welcome.

I found it funny because of the repurposing of the old
"doctor" jokes to make that point. Frankly, I found it even funnier that Shaw upped the arrogance level because of the joke. Does he get it or is he playing along?

He seems to be painting a picture of a universe that has no God for one very good reason, because there is not room in the Universe for omniscient intelligence other than his own.


Know summat, Jacko? I just love it when you post apropos of me. You never address me directly (I feel that that is about to change... :-) ). I love it when you call me Shaw to the rest of this board (even the dreaded Keith calls me Steve). It tells me much about your frustration. The very gritting of your venerable teeth shines through (as I'm sure your well-groomed teeth do shine!). Keep it up, old boy! I love it when you use inelegant words such as "repurposing". Michael often uses flowery English (I have been known to fall into such ways meself) but it is always oh so elegant. There is poetry and then there is Jacko. Read his posts, Jacko, and learn! As for getting it, oh yes, even my erstwhile faux-foe (hey, Shaw - good 'un!) Michael will tell you that I "get" his jokes (and you can bloody shut up when you're told, Michael!) Your final paragraph/sentence is replete with the sort of base sarcasm that I can only conclude (wrongfully, 'tis to be wished) is born out of sheer bitterness. Now that I don't get. :-(   Still, Little Hawk loves you, and what more could you possibly ask for!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:56 PM

Out of interest, what is the 'good' Dylan song anyhow? If it isn't 'Hattie Carroll', you're up the creek....

Keep guessing, Michael. I mean, when I refuse to tell you, how does it it feel? How does it feeeel?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:48 PM

Well, why shouldn't people discuss different concepts of God if they want to? We seem to have pretty much covered our various ideas of Heaven and Hell by now. It means some things to some people, other things to others, like everything else does, so what's the big deal?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM

I sometimes fear that I'll be darned all to heck for some of the things I've done.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:47 PM

Gnu, I'm pretty sure that Musket was joking. But in a good-natured way. He was just having some fun as many of are. Your original question was answered long ago. If you think that once your question was answered, no one should talk and carry on on this thread, maybe you should ask to have it closed.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 07:02 PM

Musket.... "And then some bugger comes and spoils it by bringing their construction of God into the debate. That of course winds up those who wish to debate without recourse to fantasy and so it goes. Even Godwinism from someone who should know better.."

NO SHIT! And I got TOTALLY shit upon for going apeshit earlier when my second thread was about to be hijacked after the first similar thread was hijacked and fucked over twice... in succession... in a few days!!!! Don left this discussion and even my PMs can't get him to return.

And then you post with the same complaint and are TOTALLY ignored by people who can't be arsed to post to previous threads on the issues they wanna shove up each others asses and... and... and simply wanna grandstand about SHIT THAT THIS THREAD HAS SWEET FUCK ALL TO DO WITH and say, "Hey! MOMMIE! LOOK AT ME!"

Fer fuck sake! Tell yas what. *I* know what Heaven and Hell is to me and I have listened to others address the OP TOPIC POLITELY and DIRECTLY. NONE of you thread hijacking motherfuckers do... yer all goin ta hell just fer your piss poor manners. Yer either too stunned to understand or to fuckin lazy ta start yer own thread or post to a thread on the topic ya wanna discuss... which IS NOT THIS ONE!!! FER FUCK SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM GONE. Have fun jerkin each other off.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:06 PM

Out of interest, what is the 'good' Dylan song anyhow? If it isn't 'Hattie Carroll', you're up the creek....

dri·i·i·i·i·i·iffffff·t

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:06 PM

Yup, Jack, we each make our own personal hell. No point in blaming God for it, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:56 PM

Whether one sees any "evidence" of a purpose in Nature or in the Universe is generally entirely dependent upon one thing, Steve...not the evidence itself, but the prior prejudice that exists in the mind of the observer. You're not going to see what you don't want to see.

Hitler couldn't see any good in Jews. Israel and Iran both can't see any good in each other. They're all mistaken. Human blindness is less often a matter of actual physical (or mental) inability to see something, but rather merely a very strong emotional disinclination to see what one has already decided simply isn't there or SHOULDN'T be or CAN'T be. (your assumption about a divine factor in things)

To admit even the possibility that it is there would be to admit you'd been wrong! And this is what most people are honor bound not to do, simply on the basis of their personal pride and their intense desire to be right all the time and to "win" the argument, whatever the argument is.

And it won't matter. Because the "win" means nothing. And will change nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:47 PM

Steve, I don't particularly care what your opinion of Bob Dylan is. It doesn't matter. You just enjoy whatever music you like, and I'll do the same.

I'm also puzzed that you seem to be answering some of your own past statements in my post (ones that I put in quotes)...and thinking you're responding to something I said, when it's not something I said, but something you said to ME in the first place.

The ancient writings we are both fascinated by, Steve, may have sometimes been divinely inspired. For you to assert that they are "hooey" is merely to make yourself the dogmatic extremist, not me, because you are the one claiming certainty of a matter you cannot BE certain about on the basis of any evidence one way or the other. Actually, Steve, you're making a faith-based statement when you say it is hooey to imagine anything can be divinely inspired. Your faith is the hardbound assumption that there cannot be any divine involvement in the Universe. You want it to be that way, so that's what you adamantly believe...and that's blind faith, mate! It's faith in saying "no" to a given unproved and unprovable proposition.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:17 PM

If there's no God...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:37 PM

Does God have the resources to make a Personal Hell for each of us?

Or do we do that ourselves?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:33 PM

I took the joke as a good-natured hint to Steve that a little humility might be welcome.

I found it funny because of the repurposing of the old
"doctor" jokes to make that point. Frankly, I found it even funnier that Shaw upped the arrogance level because of the joke. Does he get it or is he playing along?

He seems to be painting a picture of a universe that has no God for one very good reason, because there is not room in the Universe for omniscient intelligence other than his own.

Very amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Kenny B Sans Kuki
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:29 PM

Heaven is smiling :<) at a joke like " God promised men that good and obedient wives would be found in all corners of the world. And then He made the earth round and laughed till he was sore" Hell is being told that the joke is sexixt :<{

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:48 PM

As for your last post, I repeat what I said up the thread (I think it was this one) - I have yet to see any evidence that the universe/life/nature has to have a purpose. I say to anyone (and it's really just that innocent schoolroom question again), if stuff has purpose, who put the purpose into the guy who put purpose into the stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 03:43 PM

I don't regard Dawkins as a threat at all. I think he regards religion as some kind of threat, but I don't regard him as a threat. I regard him as an annoying man with a very limited and paranoid viewpoint of divinity, but certainly no threat to anyone of faith.

Well he certainly appears to put the fear of God into a certain kind of believer. Why else all the demonisation? Why not just laugh indulgently and forget him? I think you do not speak for many believers.

"You say there is a God. He says there probably isn't."

Well, I think there probably is, but I can't state it with absolute certainty, because I haven't met God in an undeniable way that I can totally confirm through direct experience. I just think God is very probable.

It would be a healthy thing if more believers were like you and publicly declared their doubt. I suppose that wouldn't go down especially well coming from the pulpit or in a Catholic classroom. Inconvenient... After all, you don't have any evidence, do you? When you say that something is probably the case for which you have no evidence, you might have to conclude that your rationality has taken a day's holiday and that Mr Delusion is waving at you through the window.

And most religions speak of God with certainty. You do not pray "Our Father, who quite possibly art in heaven...", do you now? All major religions are full of stuff that. You might say it's all harmless ritual but it happens so much that it must be inculcating a strong message of certainty in believers. There's no escaping this. If you declare that a mere possibility (or,in my view, in this case, an utter improbability) is true, you are not being truthful. That's fine for yourself, though disappointing, but, in my view, definitely not fine if you are propagating it to someone else. Children especially, though not exclusively.   

Therefore, I am not the extremist you would have me be, because the only thing I base absolute certainty on is my own direct experience.

Hmm. Careful with that one.

"The charlatan Dylan only ever wrote one good song, and your quoted one ain't it. (Have I covered everything?)"

No, Steve, you haven't covered everything. I predict we'll be talking yet for a long time, and uncover lots more. Now...I have long known that it's hopeless to convince people who don't relate to Dylan's material of its great worth, so why would I try to convince you? I think he's the finest songwriter of the 20th century. You don't. Nothing further that we can say is going to change that.

Even Dylan himself thought he was just a pop singer. That's getting close to accurate, though one might demur at "singer". One good song and a vast amount of obscurantist dross. One good song. Tell, me - when I say that to you, how does it feel? How does it feeeeel?

"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life!"

There ya go. One conditional assertion and one admonishment. Better than a whole bible-load of theology any day!

"(I'd rather believe a London bus than a load of dodgy old desert scrolls any day!)."

I'm interested in any ancient records and ideas from any culture, whether they are Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, Islamic, Hindu, Mayan, African, Celtic, Roman, Greek, whatever...and they all had ideas about the Divine, and those ideas all form part of the great picture of Life itself, and Life interests me, because I'm part of it, and it's sacred. It's not that it worries me, Steve, it's that it fascinates me.

Me too. But I part company with anyone who starts to claim that they were divinely-inspired or similar hooey.

Regarding my statement that the female and the male are equal to me, Steve, don't be disingenuous in responding that they're not because they're different! Good heavens, man, EVERYONE knows perfectly well that they're different, so it should be bloody obvious that my statement of equality did not mean "the same in their specific nature and definition". What I meant was that they are of equal value, of equal importance, should have equal rights and respect, and that they are equally valuable partners in the drama of life. The fact that they are different from one another is quite handy, and it's why they make such good partners.

As you well know.

Of course! I was merely trying to get you to focus!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 12:09 PM

Maybe I should make another thing clear, Steve. My feeling that it is very probable that there is a God was not put in me by the Bible. I came to the feeling that there probably was a God long before I had given the Bible or Christianity any real attention at all. The time in life when I first began seriously thinking there was a God was in my 20s, and it was due more to experiences with the Native American community and Native American traditional religion and my reading of various books from several Asian traditions (Buddhist, Taoist, and Hindu).

All of the above gave me the feeling that there is a guiding moral and spiritual purpose to life and a purpose that is found throughout the Universe, not just here in our little human societies.

That life is about far more than survival and competition, that it has a much higher moral purpose than those concerns.

That life did not develop by accident, but through that higher purpose.

And NONE of the above conflicts in any way with my modern science-based understanding of life, which understanding I already had well in place from the time I was a very young child, and which includes the usual scientific viewpoints of evolution, natural history of the planet, astronomy, physics, chemistry, math, etc.

So your problems with the Bible, Steve...I can understand what concerns you there...there's a lot in the Bible that I have problems with too...but the Bible is not the origin or the cornerstone of my faith. Life itself is the Holy of Holies...depending on how you look at it. If you think it's all just a fortuitous accident, then maybe not. If you think it's a sacred and purposeful Unity, then yes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 11:54 AM

Ah, Steve, you are such a contrarian reprobate! ;-) But I do enjoy talking to you.

I don't regard Dawkins as a threat at all. I think he regards religion as some kind of threat, but I don't regard him as a threat. I regard him as an annoying man with a very limited and paranoid viewpoint of divinity, but certainly no threat to anyone of faith.

Now, let's see...what else were you talking about? Hmm.

"We're pussycats really." Yes, you are. I regard you as quite harmless, Dawkins included.

"You say there is a God. He says there probably isn't."

Well, I think there probably is, but I can't state it with absolute certainty, because I haven't met God in an undeniable way that I can totally confirm through direct experience. I just think God is very probable.

Therefore, I am not the extremist you would have me be, because the only thing I base absolute certainty on is my own direct experience.

"The charlatan Dylan only ever wrote one good song, and your quoted one ain't it. (Have I covered everything?)"

No, Steve, you haven't covered everything. I predict we'll be talking yet for a long time, and uncover lots more. Now...I have long known that it's hopeless to convince people who don't relate to Dylan's material of its great worth, so why would I try to convince you? I think he's the finest songwriter of the 20th century. You don't. Nothing further that we can say is going to change that.

"There's probably no God."

Well, certainly there's probably no nasty little vengeful patriarch like the one you imagine when you hear the word "God", Steve. ;-) But there is either a reason for our existence or there is not, and we either live in a meaningful Universe imbued with purpose...or we don't...in which case it's all just a meaningless series of events on a very large scale. I think that is probably not so, that there is probably a governing meaning and principle involved in everything, and one word I refer to it by is the word "God".

"Now stop worrying and enjoy your life!"

I am. I talk here not because I'm worrying, but because I find the subject of this thread fascinating.

"(I'd rather believe a London bus than a load of dodgy old desert scrolls any day!)."

A london bus is useful if you want to go somewhere, no doubt about that. ;-) As for the desert scrolls...well...I'm interested in any ancient records and ideas from any culture, whether they are Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, Islamic, Hindu, Mayan, African, Celtic, Roman, Greek, whatever...and they all had ideas about the Divine, and those ideas all form part of the great picture of Life itself, and Life interests me, because I'm part of it, and it's sacred. It's not that it worries me, Steve, it's that it fascinates me.


****

Regarding my statement that the female and the male are equal to me, Steve, don't be disingenuous in responding that they're not because they're different! Good heavens, man, EVERYONE knows perfectly well that they're different, so it should be bloody obvious that my statement of equality did not mean "the same in their specific nature and definition". What I meant was that they are of equal value, of equal importance, should have equal rights and respect, and that they are equally valuable partners in the drama of life. The fact that they are different from one another is quite handy, and it's why they make such good partners.

As you well know.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Muset sans cookie
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

Somewhere much earlier in this thread, I suggested differentiating between the heaven and hell representing your hopes and fears and the heaven and hell representing the good cop bad cop of those who set out to control you.

And then some bugger comes and spoils it by bringing their construction of God into the debate. That of course winds up those who wish to debate without recourse to fantasy and so it goes. Even Godwinism from someone who should know better..

Me? I'm on the London Bus. Bemused to see the metaphor heaven and hell needing superstition attached before some people can begin to discuss it.

Heaven is as described by John Lennon when he imagined not believing in it and hell is finding out the insecure sheep were right after all....

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 06:57 AM

I don't take stuff personally, Michael. You should know that by now. I admit to having been mildly amused by that joke, though corset-splitter it was most decidedly not. As for those who professed to like the gag, I bet you can't find that many from this side of the ocean that didn't read it with a valiant yet evanescent grin which rapidly morphed into a groan. Never judge the efficacy of your jokes by the reaction you get from across the pond. You should also know not to do that by now.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: IanC
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 05:04 AM

I've always felt that the Banquet story encapsulates the whole business.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 04:09 AM

"Michael. New jokes welcome. Old ones had better rehash better than that one!"
.,,.
Nowt personal you realise, Steve. Joke just came to me after you had been prominently sounding off on the thread ~~ in which in general I am more of your party, as you will know.

Gnu & Joe liked it anyhow; they hadn't heard it, obviously, old or not: so it wins 2-1 by anybody's reckoning.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:50 PM

The female and the male are equal to me, always have been, always shall be.

Not to me they're not. They are different, and long live that. Neither deserves to be unfairly discriminated against, of course, but equal they are most decidedly not. And I like that. And so should you!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:45 PM

Well yes, all those apocryphal tales, yet Christians employ them shamelessly to perpetuate their institutions' built-in sexism. I'm rather fond of Dawkins myelf and I'm sorry you feel that he's such a threat. We're pussycats really. You say there is a God. He says there probably isn't. Who's the extremist?! And what a good job Mr Godwin refuted his own law! And I've told you before. The charlatan Dylan only ever wrote one good song, and your quoted one ain't it. (Have I covered everything?)

There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life! (I'd rather believe a London bus than a load of dodgy old desert scrolls any day!).

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:45 PM

Good point, Rumncoke. Yes, I think Heaven and Hell are analogous to widely differing states of mind...and your state of mind is what takes you to either one of them.

My view of your described

"simple dwelling, with a little land around it where, by working diligently it would be possible to grow, find or make all you might need."

Heaven. But even better if I can share it with some people I love.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:33 PM

By the way, I think of God as comprising the masculine and feminine archetypes in equal measure, Steve.

But I'm not a bit surprised that ancient Jewish tribal societies of 2000 or more years ago, societies which were totally patriarchal in nature where men held all positions of authority, would have written about their concept OF God in words that routinely depicted God as a male figure. It simply fit their contemporary view of things and their normal way of expressing things, that's all, and they'd never have dreamed of putting it otherwise.

And after that...church people simply followed the traditional forms set out in those writings, because they were afraid to question them, but there are a great many Christians now who DO question those traditional forms and who consider God to equally represent both the male and the female principles...or to simply be beyond definitions of gender altogether.

The female and the male are equal to me, always have been, always shall be.

Adam, Eve, the snake, the Garden, and the "apple" are all symbolic, not literal. The story is, IMO, a parable about an ancient evolutionary time period when the consciousness of the human race changed in a very significant way.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:28 PM

In my philosophy it is the person who creates the quality of their experience in both life and afterlife.

Imagine a simple dwelling, with a little land around it where, by working diligently it would be possible to grow, find or make all you might need.

Is it Heaven or Hell?

Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 10:19 PM

Steve, Steve... ;-) You say that Jack "can't win"? I told you before, it's not about winning! It's about being equal brothers and sisters living in common respect and love for one another, that's what it's about. That doesn't mean playing the usual win/lose scenarios that our world is so afflicted by.

Listen to the closing lines in Bob Dylan's "Gates of Eden" sometime.
There are no trials inside the Gates of Eden...
There are no kings inside the Gates of Eden...
There are no sins inside the Gates of Eden....
And There are no truths outside the Gates of Eden.

That's poetry, it's metaphor about life, and it says something profound. He wrote it when he was only about 25 years old.

"He's not that bloody perfect himself, is he? I mean, just look at all the death, misery, disease, famine, drought and manifold other destructions he so eagerly visits on us all, just because a dame bit into his precious bloody apple. Vindictive sod! And no bloody room for a woman in the triumvirate, is there! (Mind you, perhaps he jibs at the thought of a woman sitting on his right hand...)."

Ahh...I get your drift now, Steve. You're talking about that horrible plastic effigy of God that various people carry about in their heads, specially people who also say they don't believe in God. The old bearded guy on the throne, hurling thunderbolts. Talk about a silly notion! Heck, when I was 5 years old I already knew that no such ridiculous heavenly monster as that could possibly exist, and it bears no resemblance to what I refer to as "God". What it does bear a resemblance to is the very worst type of mortal human patriarch, a violent, cruel individual without mercy, tolerance or compassion, one who has no respect for women, and one who doesn't have the right to rule a pay toilet, let alone the Universe! Anyone who takes the story of Adam and Eve and the apple literally perhaps believes literally in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and Batman too, because it would be at about the same level of comprehension to do so.

Don't make the common mistake of the more militant type of atheist, Steve, that everyone who believes in God believes in the grotesquely stupid and childish little caricature of God that is carried around in the heads of professional God-botherers such as Mr Dawkins, for whom the religious cup is never anything but "half empty". It's just wishful thinking on their part...they wish that all religious people were as ignorant and foolish as they'd like them to be in order to justify their atheist argument.

(Kind of like how Hitler wished that all Jews were as venal, corrupt, devious, and horrible as he would've liked them to be to justify his argument.)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 09:17 PM

Steve...you can't "get tough with" God or lay down ultimatums. (ultimata?) It has no effect. ;-) It would be like trying to intimidate the ocean.

Ultimatums will do. Don't even begin to go all Chiff 'n' Fipple and start referring to "fora". As for laying down ultimatums to the Godhead, well why not? He's not that bloody perfect himself, is he? I mean, just look at all the death, misery, disease, famine, drought and manifold other destructions he so eagerly visits on us all, just because a dame bit into his precious bloody apple. Vindictive sod! And no bloody room for a woman in the triumvirate, is there! (Mind you, perhaps he jibs at the thought of a woman sitting on his right hand...). Finally, yanks, lighten up, else you'll all end up just like Jacko. You too, Michael. New jokes welcome. Old ones had better rehash better than that one!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 09:07 PM

Steve... Where to begin.

Don't bother. You know you can't win.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 07:12 PM

MtheGM - THREE points!

(in basketball terms, that's damn good for one shot)