BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:30 PM

I'm curious, pete, is your refusal to use capitals when appropriate a case of passive-aggression? Do you capitalize GOD?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:16 PM

our internet has been down awhile so this is a very brief response to past criticisms.despite my being "incomprehensible" ,ebbie and bill [and i suspect most others] knew what i was saying.
yes ebbie - that was what i was saying.
bill- every scientist is influenced by presuppositions,and i have previously cited admissions of such.
don t - i see you went straight to the primary source to dis sarfati - not!.that link to " debate" does you no credit at all.
jack - did i spot incorrect grammer in your reply [smile]

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 04:08 PM

Religion is a moral crutch, for the socially inadequate.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM

Western "civilization" does that because we are greedy, lazy bastards. Religion is used as an excuse, after the fact.

The Bible talks about "dominion" over creation but also a responsibility to preserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:12 PM

"humans" not "human's" - what is the matter with me!?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM

"The Catholic Church states unequivocally that animals, possessing no soul, will not be admitted to heaven."

Is that why Western civilisation thinks it's OK to trash the world - because only human's possess souls and therefore all other living things are of no account and can be carelessly destroyed?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:45 PM

>>>>""Seriously, I would imagine that any animals in Heaven would be there for the benefit of the people.""

The Catholic Church states unequivocally that animals, possessing no soul, will not be admitted to heaven. This was one of the points which got me thrown out of the RI class.

I asked what would be the replacement in heaven, given the pleasure derived by humans from animals in general, and pets in particular. I said that it seemed weird that in a place which was to be the reward for goodness, we should have less pleasure than we had in life, and commented that, if I couldn't take my dog, I wasn't sure I wanted to go.

45 minutes outside the door, and a visit to the head for caning, and all these years later there is still no answer, and if it should turn out real, I don't think I've been rotten enough to be excluded, but if that dog isn't waiting I'll have to think carefully whether it's the place I want to be.
"<<<

Thanks Don, you illustrated my point with a clear personal example.
If Heaven is paradise for you, then your dog is there. But dogs don't need salvation and can't go to Hell for their sins. So your dog would be there for you. One thing I might point out is that my dog had very long fur that tended to clump and mat. In his version of heaven there would be piles of dung and stinky, boggy water and bushes with burrs for him to roll in and explore. But then if it is my version of heaven then someone else would bathe him and comb that crap from his fur.

I sometimes think that Heaven, to be the physical paradise it is sometimes made out to be, would have to be customized to the needs of each individual, with many subservient beings to tend to us. I wonder if that is the thinking behind the Mormon idea of each man ruling his own planet.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:30 PM

"It is Satan's job to be cruel, if the religious fairy stories are anything to go by. "

Yes genius, that it why it is funny to say that even Satan would not be sp cruel as to make me suffer you "humour" or in this case your lack of it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:22 PM

LH... "You don't have to agree with everything in a given church to stay associated with it."

You never met a Hard Shell Baptist, eh? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:03 PM

"Hell. That's the place to be. Low energy costs, entertainment, all my mates."

Sorry, Musket. If Hell is the absence of God and God is Love and Friendship derives from Love then there are no Friends in Hell. :)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:40 AM

Don, I thank God I did not have your religious upbringing!!! ;-)

So the Catholic Church says animals have no souls, do they? I wonder how they figured that one out? Seems more like wishful thinking to me than any kind of informed opinion.

Anyway, I bet there are some individual Catholics who do believe animals have souls, because there are some pretty independent-minded Catholics around (I've met some of them) and they don't necessarily agree with everything that comes under the authority of the Pope in Rome. In some cases this causes them to leave the church...but in other cases there is enough stuff that they like about the church that they can put up with the stuff they don't agree with.

I'll give an example of how that works: I'm a Canadian. I basically like Canada...for many different reasons. But....there are some things I don't like about Canada. There are things my government does that I totally disagree with! And the winter's too long. Still, I haven't left Canada, have I? That's because there's enough I like about being here that I can put up with the parts I don't like.

The same goes for churches. You don't have to agree with everything in a given church to stay associated with it. You don't have to agree with every point of its dogma.

The same goes for relationships. You don't have to agree with everything about the other person to stay in the relationship.

Everything in life is like that. There is no perfect church, no perfect country, no perfect government, and no perfect relationship...they all involve compromise. And that's why a person can disagree with the Pope about quite a few specific things...and still want to remain a Catholic (for various other reasons quite aside from what the Pope thinks).

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

Surely there is an exception for seeing-eye dogs?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:13 AM

""Seriously, I would imagine that any animals in Heaven would be there for the benefit of the people.""

The Catholic Church states unequivocally that animals, possessing no soul, will not be admitted to heaven. This was one of the points which got me thrown out of the RI class.

I asked what would be the replacement in heaven, given the pleasure derived by humans from animals in general, and pets in particular. I said that it seemed weird that in a place which was to be the reward for goodness, we should have less pleasure than we had in life, and commented that, if I couldn't take my dog, I wasn't sure I wanted to go.

45 minutes outside the door, and a visit to the head for caning, and all these years later there is still no answer, and if it should turn out real, I don't think I've been rotten enough to be excluded, but if that dog isn't waiting I'll have to think carefully whether it's the place I want to be.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Musket
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:08 AM

Heretics like me were put "beyond the pale" in mediaeval times, so your turn of phrase is rather apt.

It is Satan's job to be cruel, if the religious fairy stories are anything to go by. Although the God dude in old testament could be a bit of a bastard by all accounts.

Anyway, this does raise an interesting heaven and hell conundrum. If I were a God botherer, then heaven would be full of clap and be happy sanctimonious smiling Christians. My idea of hell is a place full of clap and be happy sanctimonious smiling Christians...

There are times when I feel I have reached heaven, and times when I reckon hell has caught up with me. So, I wonder if heaven and hell are a figment of your imagination? I wonder what else from the good book started that way?

I have a family branch that are Jehova;s Witnesses, (my Aunty married a bloke who became one to avoid being called up in the war and as with all brain washing, it kind of stuck...) and I am aware of their acceptance that there may well be the big zero once you snuff it. Two issues though. 1) They feel it is certain that there is a big zero, rather than state the lack of evidence for any other scenario, and 2) there are more Jehova's witnesses than there are places in paradise available according to their literature. Seems a bit of a bugger, especially as the place will be crowded what with a huge bunch of virgins for every Islamic martyr and God keeping Sailor Boy away from people who fail to take his waffle seriously.

Hell. That's the place to be. Low energy costs, entertainment, all my mates. Yeah, where do you sign up?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:36 AM

"I'd piss myself laughing if, when I get there I bump into you."

A merciful God will keep us apart and not even Satan would be that cruel to me.

I'm going to stop taking to you now. Fire and brimstone I could take, but the tedium of your jokes is torture beyond the pale.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:25 AM

Hello Sailor!

I'd piss myself laughing if, when I get there I bump into you...

Any more pontifications regarding what gets you to hell? May as well make it worth my while.   

I wonder which animals would deserve hell then, based on flawed logic with a slight nautical air?   My bloody greyhound pollutes alright. Farts in the house and shitd on my lawn. Whether you would give him the fire and brimstone codswallop is another story.   Presumably the dinosaurs are there because God was displeased with them and was happier with Noah. ..

Best not to discuss heaven and hell when ripped to your tits, it conjours up fantasies no chemical can get near. ..

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:06 PM

"I like to think that all beings that can *love* are eternal."

That's a wonderful thought, Ebbie!

Regarding the plant allergies, that seems to be a huge problem for a great many people, and it may be why I tend to get depressed in the Springtime...for no apparent reason. I'm beginning to think it's probably a reaction to pollen.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:01 PM

By the way, in a lot of places in the Bible the word that has been translated in English as "Hell" was originally the Hebrew word sheol. That word does not mean a place of punishment or torture. Literally translated, it simply means "the grave" or "the place of death".

This is why Jehovah's Witnesses, among others, do not believe in a fiery Hell or a place of torment for the punishment of unrepentant souls. They think souls that are not saved simply go to "the grave", and experience nothing conscious at all there, but are simply not alive anymore. As for those who are saved, the JW's think that many will be resurrected in physical bodies in a completely restored Eden-like condition on Earth, while a much smaller number (144,000) will go to Heaven to be in the company of God.

It's quite a different viewpoint from that held by most Christian fundamentalists, who seem to be very taken with the idea of a fiery Hell and eternal punishment for the wicked.

All these different Christian viewpoints have arisen because of different interpretations and translations of the Bible over the past 2,000 years.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 10:59 PM

About whether *all* living things get to go to heaven, that's kind of problem-laden, right? They say that the air of Phoenix, Arizona, was excellent for people who went there to get away from their allergies. Until the people started planting the bushes, flowers and herbs that they missed from 'back home'.

So maybe transporting all manner of critters to heaven- see?

I like to think that all beings that can *love* are eternal.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 10:49 PM

I tend to think of Hell as a temporary condition, not a permanent one. I can't see any useful point in having "eternal damnation", but I can see a point in experiencing unpleasant consequences as long as you remain in an unpleasant attitude, so to speak. In other words...God doesn't condemn anyone to Hell, they put themselves in Hell on the basis of their own general attitude....and an attitude can change as time goes by!

When I'm speaking of "Hell"...I don't have any particular picture or definition of it in my mind. I'm not imagining the traditional fiery pit or anything like that. Likewise, in the case of Heaven, I'm not imagining any particular traditional scene either...not the clouds and harps, etc, nothing like that.

Why? Because I don't know yet, that's why. And I don't necessarily accept other people's versions of it, because they probably don't know yet either...nor do I literally accept versions of it in some ancient holy book such as the Bible, because the writers may not have known either, and furthermore they may have been speaking in symbols and metaphors rather than in literal terms.

Then too, there could be a great many different forms of both Hell and Heaven, many different levels and degrees of both...so one person's description might only apply to one of them.

For instance, I remember a rather funny cartoon in the Far Side. A guy has just arrived in Hell and he's looking around. It's a sort of barren, empty place without any vegetation or buildings, but there are a lot of people scattered around in easy chairs, all sitting alone and watching television.

"Wow!" he says to the Devil, "You've got TV here."

"Yes," replies the Devil with a wicked grin. "Unfortunately...it's ALL we've got!"

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 10:01 PM

For a lot of people Heaven is a reward for good behavior on Earth. IMHO Animals don't make moral decisions they just do as their instincts command. They can't earn Heaven but they have no risk of Hell.

Trashing the environment can be a sin in any number of ways. But if you are immoral enough to pollute, you are likely to go to hell for any number of reasons, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:52 PM

I've also been troubled by the human-centred thing, Shimrod, and it shows up in both religion and the other various aspects of culture.

However, it's not all that surprising. If rabbits had a planet-dominating civilization somewhere, I expect they'd have rabbit-centered religions and philosophies, and at least some of them would imagine God as a very large and powerful rabbit.

The thing is, though, you can look at humans 2 ways...

You can look at all the harm we've done. ("glass is half empty")

You can look at all the creative and beautiful things we've accomplished. ("glass is half full")

Either way, there's a lot to look at. I think it's an honor to be a human being...but if I were a rabbit, I'd feel the same honor in being a rabbit. People are far better off to believe in themselves than to despair over their errors. Animals are wise in their innocence. They accept what they are without question. So should we, and we'd be a lot happier.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:49 PM

Yes, Jack it's me.

I have to say that what troubles me more and more about discussions like this is that they are so 'human centred' - there's an underlying assumption that humans live in isolation from the rest of Nature and are 'above it'. To the religious the rest of 'Creation' appears to be a mere detail - an afterthought. The irreligious or anti-religious case too seems to be framed in terms of human pre-occupations.

In a world which is falling to bits around us, I think it's time that we started developing a higher form of consciousness - one which begins to acknowledge the limits of our existence. If we were truly the 'pinnacle of Creation' we wouldn't be carelessly trashing everything in sight.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:13 PM

Is "GUEST" shimrod?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:08 PM

Well, again...this is just hypothetical...but I think that if people have souls which survive physical death, then other living things probably do as well. I don't see why they wouldn't! So, yes, why shouldn't animals have a life in spirit if we do?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 07:05 PM

"Seriously, I would imagine that any animals in Heaven would be there for the benefit of the people."

Is that the only reason that animals (what about plants and fungi?) are on Earth then - for the benefit of people? Who or what benefited from dinosaurs, say, before people evolved?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:34 PM

"an octopus to Heaven or Hell?"

Do you mean any octopus or one that has not accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior?

Seriously, I would imagine that any animals in Heaven would be there for the benefit of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 06:16 PM

Well, HELL'S BELLS! Ye lads are back on track big time! I am fuckin gob smacked!

Nice of youse to actually address the OP and provide legitimate discussions of same. I say that in the nicest sense and I am not being trite. I hope genuine discussion continues and leads where it may.

Bravo ALL!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 05:51 PM

Are there other living things in Heaven and Hell apart from human beings? Are there dogs, cats, beetles, daisies, grass, toadstools, bacteria or viruses in those places? If "yes", how does God decide whether to send, say, an octopus to Heaven or Hell? If "no", where do wildebeeste, sharks and smallpox viruses go when they die?

One thing is certain, though, by destroying all of the other living things we currently share the planet with, we certainly aren't creating Heaven!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:49 PM

It's also a night club, in Kingston upon Hull.


From Hull and Hell, and Halifax eh!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 03:38 PM

Yes, you make some good points there, Don. The churches have, of course, often abused their power....and have often been taken over by greedy men who were out to increase their own wealth and power, in truth, rather than pursuing any honest spiritual ends. Such is the folly of humanity. You could say exactly the same thing about our political systems, banking systems, and large businesses....all were originally based upon worthy intentions, but have often become corrupted through the self-serving actions of venal men. Any system is only as good as the people at the top of that system.

You say that "Arrest jail time and execution are real, as are honours and knighthoods and the equivalents round the world."

Yes. We know they're real because they occur in this physical reality.

Spiritual rewards and consequences may well also be real. If so, they don't occur in this reality, but in another. We have no way of proving or disproving that at present, since direct proof of any other hypothetical reality is not attainable in this one, so we can neither categorically confirm nor categorically deny the possibility of spiritual consequences for one's actions.

There are countless ideas about Heaven and Hell, and about reincarnation, and karma, and various other theories. I don't know which is right...or if any of them are right...but I'm certainly willing to consider them as possibilities. I don't deny what I have no proof against...nor do I insist upon what I have no experiential proof in support of. I simply give it fair consideration, admitting that I don't know for sure. Some things seem more probable to me than others...but stating probability is not the same thing as stating certainty.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:33 PM

""You feel that the Church has used stories about Hell to control people? Well, yeah!!!!""

It's not control per se that I disagree with. It's control by "Fairy Godmother" versus "Bogeyman".

Arrest jail time and execution are real, as are honours and knighthoods and the equivalents round the world.

Also that control has been misused for the material enrichment of the controllers. Go look at any major Catholic or orthodox Christian cathedral, or better still the Vatican, and see what they have accumulated, then consider how many poor people and sick people could be helped.

There are of course Christian churches which don't have the same riches, and they tend to be the more modern offshoots.

Our own Church of England owns huge areas of land, yet bullies parishioners to fund raise for maintenance costs of their churches.

None of that is a particularly edifying endorsement of the use of Heaven and Hel which has facilitated it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 02:15 PM

Actually, Musket, the "sin of Onan" as described in Genesis, although often used as a synonym for the activity you rubricate above, was, from the words used,"spilled his seed on the ground", rather an act of coitus interruptus, surely, than of masturbation?

~M~ OLP (Official Legendary Pedant)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:57 PM

I was just doing onto you something that gave you great pleasure.

Two things really, since it allowed you to express sure knowledge in something you claim no interest in. Be careful though. Every Christian judgement you make brings you one step closer to salvation.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM

Well stop moaning about the choice of others then.

Anyway, thanks for calling me a wanker. Your Bible reckons that's a sin you know. You'll never go to heaven whilst being fascinated with my hell..

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:51 PM

Hello hand cannon! Shooting off another wad I see.

Its not a matter of rights. Its a matter of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 12:47 PM

Hello sailor!

And what gives you the right to be serious?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 11:58 AM

Gnu

I have to disagree with Don. At least in small part. Yes Heaven and Hell are very old concepts. They have been analyzed and referenced for at least 2000 years, by priests, by authors. The most influential example, Dante wasn't just presenting a stick. He was illustrating the moral comparison of earthly sins and saying some interesting things about human nature.

All of these analyses. All of these writings add up to one clear conclusion. There cannot be just one clear definition of "Heaven" or "Hell" you are welcome to say yours is right. But if someone sincerely tell you what it means to them, you have no ground to say that they were wrong. I think that every answer on this thread but one was a legitimate answer to your question and deserves respect.

On the other hand

If it is clear that they are taking the piss and deliberately misunderstanding, trivializing and mocking the question, As one person on the thread has done. Have at 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:28 AM

I know what you mean, Steve. ;-) But we all know perfectly well that behaving like a prat gets you into trouble eventually, don't we? Do you have any objection to that notion or would you favor a world where being a total prat doesn't bear any consequences at all? Tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 09:17 AM

Good behaviour has good results. Bad behaviour results in punishment and suffering as natural consequences OF that bad behaviour.

If it's that way in secular life, and it bloody well is, then why the hell shouldn't it be that way in religion too???????????? As above, so below. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You commit the crime, you pay the price.

I gather you don't object to secular society controlling people through fear of punishment when they break civil laws. Why would you object to the church attempting to control people through fear of punishment when they break spiritual laws?

Not very New Testament, this lot, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:51 AM

There are innumerable different views about the concept of Heaven and Hell, Don, and they are found in most cultures that have ever existed, certainly aren't restricted to the Roman Catholic Church or the Greek Mythos.

What they all have to do with is human conduct in a moral sense, and the long range results and consequences of human conduct....this being a philosophical matter that is of great concern to ANY even moderately civilized community of human beings. The basic idea is this: Good conduct leads to good results in the long run. Bad conduct leads to suffering of one type or another...and may lead to punishment of one type or another...in the long run. (It also leads to people not liking you!)

We all know this. It's self-evident. It is reflected in the rules we teach our children about personal conduct, and in the civil laws that our communities enact to regulate conduct and to prevent (or punish) crimes.

You can call it "carrot and stick" if you want to...(shrug)...it doesn't matter...it's still necessary to have bad consequences for destructive actions in a community and in a society, and everyone understands that.

To extend these same factors into ideas about a world of spirit or an afterlife is perfectly natural....and most civilizations have believed in something spiritual and have had ideas about an afterlife (or ideas about karma and reincarnation).

What is surprising about any of that, and why would anyone find it objectionable?

You feel that the Church has used stories about Hell to control people? Well, yeah!!!! Secular society uses stories about arrest, trial, and jail time...and even execution....to control people! Meaning: to control their behaviour so they will hesitate before breaking the law.

As I said above...what is surprising about any of that? It's an inevitable feature of people attempting to form and regulate a workable, complex society.

Good behaviour has good results. Bad behaviour results in punishment and suffering as natural consequences OF that bad behaviour.

If it's that way in secular life, and it bloody well is, then why the hell shouldn't it be that way in religion too???????????? As above, so below. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You commit the crime, you pay the price.

I gather you don't object to secular society controlling people through fear of punishment when they break civil laws. Why would you object to the church attempting to control people through fear of punishment when they break spiritual laws? (most of which are based on ordinary morality anyway)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Mar 13 - 08:22 AM

""Apparently, you missed my post explaining the actual meaning of the concept as it relates to human "life" and discussing the concept's overall importance re the way one lives one's life, which has sweet fuck all to do with religion or any "child's play" carrot and stick crap.""

With respect Gnu, I didn't miss it, I disagreed with it.

What you, and several others, are doing is taking a specific pair of terms which are linked inextricably with 3000 years of organised population control by a process of fear versus reward.

It is playing with semantics to take those words and apply them to altogether unconnected concepts, simply because those concepts are what you may think of as either good, or bad.

You may be (in fact you are) correct in your assessment of those concepts as good or bad, and I would have no quarrel with the use of moral/immoral, or ethical/unethical, but heaven, or hell they absolutely are not.

If one accepts the existence of heaven and hell, as propounded by the Ancient Greeks and much more so by the Catholic Church, they would, by definition be so far exceeding just good or evil as to be beyond our capacity to imagine.

If you don't believe in them (as I don't), they are a simple controlling mechanism.

The bottom line for me is this. Depending on your belief, they are either too good, or not good enough to apply to the concepts expressed here.

I hope this is comprehensible, as I had considerable difficulty in figuring out why I felt as I do.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 09:02 PM

"
I was told that my OP had been answered and ERGO... any other discussions or whatever were none of my business, thank you very much!"

I don't think you were told they were none of your business. I think you were asked to lighten up.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 07:57 PM

Don... "It all goes back to one basic, and none of the posts have changed that one iota."

Apparently, you missed my post explaining the actual meaning of the concept as it relates to human "life" and discussing the concept's overall importance re the way one lives one's life, which has sweet fuck all to do with religion or any "child's play" carrot and stick crap. Read back. I am sure you will find it among all the nasty, pontificating bullshit about crap that has nothing to do with the OP.

No, don't thank me. It's my job as a superhero.

I thought my work here was done but, alas, no.

I guess my take on this thread is this.

It went south.

I went Wildebeeste!!!

I was told that my OP had been answered and ERGO... any other discussions or whatever were none of my business, thank you very much!

Welllll, seems to me that if the OP was answered (bullshit) then all the crap that ensued should have been posted to threads about all that other crap or a new thread started.

I guess what I am saying is, nobody can speak to a deaf man, especially if he chooses not to hear you. I asked a question. I listened. It was a great discussion until it was ruined. Now I come back to see what is going on and I see the dog has bitten it's own tail... again and again and again.

I know what the concept truly means. Those who try to make it in any way a religious concept or rule and shit upon the concept as it relates to living one's life in a "good" way simply because they perceive it as dictated by a religion do not - if you don't get that, wellll, don't worry... you can't end up in Hell for being stunned as me arse... matter of fact, it almost precludes you will. Be happy in your ignorance!

Go to Heaven you ignorant bastards! >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:13 PM

got more. ;-)

Heaven is a friendly dog.
Hell is a dog that wants to attack you.

(attitude is everything)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:11 PM

Musket - to add to what you said...

Heaven is the freedom to think for oneself.
Hell is being told what to think.

Heaven is freely living the way you wish to live.
Hell is being forced to live in some other way.

Heaven is freedom.
Hell is enslavement (to a dogma, a government, a slavemaster, a boss, a bad habit, a drug, a religious order, and any other form of outer control imposed upon oneself against one's own better judgement).

Heaven is peace.
Hell is war.

Heaven is love.
Hell is hatred.

Heaven is inner peace.
Hell is fear and inner torment.

Heaven is a sense of purpose.
Hell is having no idea what to do next.

Heaven is being interested and inspired.
Hell is being bored and frustrated.

Heaven is seeing yourself in others.
Hell is seeing every other person as just an opportunity or a threat.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 05:54 PM

"A cynic knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing."

I'll tell you what heaven and hell are. Heaven is being in the presence of those whom you truly love. Hell is getting entangled in endless Mudcat Cafe threads where people are bitching about politics and religion.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 12:57 PM

It all goes back to one basic, and none of the posts have changed that one iota.

HEAVEN is a carrot, to acquire which the faithful are admonished to do as they are told, failing which there awaits the big stick called HELL.

Whatever posters may make of it on a personal level, it was, and is, an invention of organised religion, for precisely the above purpose.

The Greek Hades was the God of the underworld, the place dead people went to, not just evil people. Once there they were judged by a panel of three judges, Rhadamanthus, Minos, and Aeacus, who pass sentence. The very good go to the Elysian Fields. Others are singled out for special treatment. Sisyphus and Tantalus being prime examples of the latter.

The Catholic Church seized upon it as a controlling mechanism for the population as well, over the years, as a source of considerable income in return for indulgences.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 06:09 AM

Good. Gnu can now sift through and see the answers to his OP.

Heaven is freedom to know how to think.
Hell is being told what to think.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Mar 13 - 04:48 PM

Mr. Musket.

Can you honestly say that you opened this thread not expecting it to be about what you call "fantasy?"

Again, please pardon me for discussing my religious belief on a thread started to discuss religious beliefs.

You are childishly baiting me now with terms like "God bollocks".

No one asked you about "religion tries to impede science, tries to control people"

People were asked to talk to gnu about Heaven and Hell.

No one was asked to bash people for believing those things. In fact you all were asked, very passionately to leave all of that at the door.

By you did it anyway. Barged in and spread you anti-religious prejuidices, your mundane and secular definitions of religious terms, your tendencies to provoke, taunt and utter playground insults.   And when you didn't get enough attention for your tantrum, you personally attacked my motives with a snide remark.

You are the evangelist on this thread. You need to live with that. Since I have clearly made my point, twice. I am done with this topic sir.