BS: Obsession with being 'right'

Subject: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:43 PM

Anyone notice that on some threads, the obsession some folks have with being right? Do they recognize it themselves? How can they miss it? Do they feel the power of the sense of "being right" and "winning" when people abruptly back off from a conversation? Do they not see that it is them that folks are often "backing down" not the topic of discussion? Do they have a "blind spot" that misses normal social messages? How can they miss the part they played in a disfunctial discussion? Know anyone like that?

Addition to "being right"


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/be-real-not-right_b_330806.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM

Certainly most people don't like that the are wrong or that their idol has feet of clay. Some people with change the subject every time you point out they are wrong. Some people when they are shown to be wrong with rephrase the question and start a new thread.

Some people care about what is true. Some people just care about who likes who.

On the other hand. I can kinda sorta see the point the guy is wrestling with in that article. The Archie Bunker story is cute.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:17 PM

I think that for most things worthy of discussion, there is no right or wrong. The answers, such as they are, lie somewhere in the balance of varying factors and perspectives. The more perspectives we bring into the balance, the closer we can come to a "good" answer (not a right answer). Oftentimes, even seriously flawed perspectives can make major contributions to the balance.

I teach a Bible study every Monday morning, and the participants have become quite sophisticated over the years. They're catching on to the major point I try to get across - that for many questions, the best answer is "both" or "all of the above."

I think most of us would be a lot happier if we gave up seeking to be "right," and chose instead to seek a broader perspective.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:19 PM

Well, said, Ed. It is the obsession people have with being "right" that wrecks at least half the threads on Mudcat, and it's a disease that's almost universal among humans (to one extent or another, depending on how strong (and insecure) the person's ego is). It's more noticeable in the people who have a worse case of it, and they are the ones that others eventually learn to back off from, avoid talking to...or humour, just so they'll stop fighting with you about whatever it is that they are temporarily focusing on in order to be....."right".

I read a psychology book about this problem back in the 60's, I believe it was called "The Right Man". My father and his brother were extreme examples of the type, and they made life hell for me and my cousins. With a father like that, you can't ever be "right" about anything yourself...unless you become a little yes-man and just follow instructions and obey orders....so you learn to not talk about anything, avoid notice if at all possible, and hopefully escape the familial home as soon as possible.

The obession with being right has something to do with a person's insecurity about how they are seen by others. They have to be "right", because to be "wrong" about anything would supposedly reduce their personal power and their prestige. That's how the ego thinks...in terms of threats to its security, and opportunities to strengthen its position vis-a-vis all other egos.

It's a hellish attitude to have, and it produces most of the trouble in the world...whether it is applied through politics, business, religion, or in personal relationships.

The Right Man or Right Woman is a person you can only come to terms with by domination (showing superior power to them)...or surrender. Not wishing to either dominate or surrender to anyone, I opt to just avoid such people if I can manage it. Unfortunately, one can't really avoid them online. They react to something, and they launch an attack. One can only refuse to oblige their desire to have a fight about something by not reacting in kind.

2 Right men (or Right women) will, of course, go on fighting online with each other indefinitely. Neither one will ever back down. They HAVE to be right, so they'll fight about "it" (whatever the subject is) forever, and neither one will give an inch. You see a lot of that going on around here. It's pointless. Silly. And sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

And there ain't a danged thing you can do about it. My father went on being "right" for his whole life....

And then he died.

His brother went on being "right" for his whole life....

And then he died.

Despite both being "right" or more likely because of it, they couldn't stand each other, and they never liked each other one bit. They both considered the other one to be "an idiot" and a fool to boot.

They both wrecked their families, messed up their marriages, alienated their children, made a lot of enemies, caused a lot of pain....and went on being "right"...till they died.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:36 PM

It's the alpha male obsession with winning. Personally I'm happy to be thought of as wrong and happy to 'lose' an 'argument' and walk away - my opinions are just that, opinions. On the other hand, I don't like be hectored, lectured, finger-wagged or browbeaten. Again I'd rather walk away and leave the other person with their misplaced sense of omnipotence intact. I work with someone who always has to win, have the last word, be right. Unsurprisingly he believes he walks on water. Equally unsurprisingly, everyone - without exception - believes him to be a tosser.

It's like with these endless religious debates here at Mudcat. The religious are rarely going to persuade the irreligious they are right or vice versa, so it ends up that acres of very hot and incredibly BORING air is expounded. Personally I have no religious belief, but some of my good friends do. And that's ok - both ways. As long as no-one is trying to shove any unwanted beliefs or non-beliefs down the other's throats I think we're fine. On Mudcat, however, that sense of perspective is sometimes lost. Angry fingers...

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM

PS - I am right, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:56 PM

I think that the religious on this forum over the years have been losing ground in the right/not right argument, possibly because the major moderator claims to "get along" better with the anti religious. The religious seem to have gone from arguing

that they were Right to
Maybe right. to
Maybe there is a gray area to
Not wrong, to
Not delusional.

Not delusional is a place where one must dig in ones heels.

We can't prove that there is a God. But any reasonable person with a dictionary and sound judgement can see that we are not delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:07 PM

The most important skill I acquired during my forties was discussion of contentious subjects. I deliberately copy a technique used by my aunt, who majored in philosophy at university: when confronted with an opinion she disagrees with, she immediately asks,"Could you explain that to me?" And then she shuts up and listens to the explanation.

The tone and language of the explanation tell me whether I can discuss this topic with this person. If the tone is emotional and the language dogmatic, I say, "Hmm, that's interesting" and move on. If the tone is coolly intellectual and the language observational, I conclude that a discussion will be productive.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:08 PM

Joe, I agree with you certainly, however some times the answer is "none of the above".

As for delusion, as I have said before, everyone has an area of delusion without being totally delusional. I agree with Dawkins that a belief in a god is delusional although people can have this and not be delusional in other areas of their behavior or life.

This is strictly a matter of personal opinion and I don't expect others to agree with me.
I do see the delusional harm in the way religion has been applied and it is not always benign.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:17 PM

Anyone who can say, "I was wrong" can also say "I know more than I did."
Too often people confuse opinions with facts. That's where the trouble starts.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:38 PM

Random responses from a site that asked a question on how important is your opinion, as opposed to the opinion of others:

""there's a lot of people who'll have a more thought out opinion than I. But I won't let another's opinion rule over mine.""

"" I prefer my own opinion. I see that everyone else's opinion isn't very good, so I like my own.""

""My own opinion really is the only one that matters, as it's the only one that really affects my life to a large degree.""

""My opinion is always better because it is my opinion. If you and I said the same thing, my option will still be better. I take others opinions into consideration, but I still know my opinion is downright correct.""

"" I know that I'm smarter than most people, so listening to their opinions over my own would be a disadvantage."'

""If your smart enough to have a well placed critical thought in your mind at all and I mean with actual logic, then it matters over others."'

""I value my opinion more than others -because all my childhood and school life I been around people who don't really have clue what they are saying. So, my opinion is more important than anyone else's!""

Of course, that's just my opinion which is no more important than anyone else's.""

""Not all opinions are created equally"".

""our opinions are all silly and equal""

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:39 PM

On the other hand, just because I admit I was wrong, it doesn't automatically follow that you were right...

****************************************************************

Can we clear up this delusion business? If I say I believe there are fairies living at the bottom of my garden, that's my sincerely held belief. If you don't believe in fairies, it's going to be your sincerely held belief that I am deluded. This doesn't mean that you think I am mad or you think I am a lesser person, it just means that you think I am deeply mistaken when it comes to that aspect of my belief system.

Simple, innit?

******************************************************************

Also, as a mental health worker can I point out something that we hear all the time and slightly laugh about? If you describe me as 'delusional' you're saying that I don't exist. I don't think that's what you mean, though. Either I'm deluded or my ideas are delusional...

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:52 PM

Fairies in the garden eh?

You are repeating a Dawkins meme.

Surely then you must be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:00 PM

This is the way it was put to me:

Would you rather be right - or happy?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:06 PM

Spleen Cringe, I neither believe nor disbelieve in fairies (nature spirits?). Therefore if someone tells me that there are fairies at the bottom of their garden, I first...

1. Try to gauge what sort of person they are to be saying that in the first place, how serious they are when saying it, and how rational they seem to be.

I might conclude that they're just fooling around...or that they are unstable in some way. If so, I'll probably tend to discount what they said.

I might conclude that they're quite serious, calm, and rational. If so, I'll go partly on what I already know about them in deciding how seriously to take what they said. There are some people whom I would take quite seriously, because I trust their judgement. There are others whom I would not take so seriously.

I hardly know anything about fairies, so I don't have much basis to "decide" in an instant whether or not to believe in them. I don't have a basis of dogma that I cling to which says "There are no such things as fairies."

Therefore I'd take the person's statement about the fairies and try to rate it according to my general view of the person's reliability...and take it from there...because I'm in no position to say one way or the other that there are...or are not...fairies.

What I would do is try to find out more about...go to the bottom of their garden...and see if I could see anything there myself. If I couldn't, but they could, I'd wonder if possibly they had developed a sensory ability that I haven't developed. I'd consider it at least a slight possiblity.

This doesn't mean I've decided one way or the other about the fairies. It means I'm willing to admit that I don't know for certain.

The same applies to matters about God...or about prayer...or anything else of that sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:08 PM

Before Dawkins the word delusion was not applied to religion except as a joke. Now among certain circles it is used regularly to apply to religious people as if we are not clever enough to see through your little joke.

When I started talking about this I was saying that people who agreed with Dawkins were saying that religious people were deluded. No no no they said it is not a MEDICAL thing.

You are not fooling me cringe. No one is a little bit deluded. The word is ALWAYS a mocking putdown or a medical diagnosis. If someone is going to smugly call me deluded to my face. There is no room for reasonable debate.

That's the way Dawkins frames the debate. And Steve Shaw and musket. there is no possibility for a reasonable debate about religion with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:13 PM

Acknowledgement of lack of certainty is what is, er, lacking among a large number of those who adhere to God. I imagine such people with their incurious eyes tight shut, a serene half-smile on their lips and faces half-turned to "heaven". I can't understand certainty. I certainly ( ;-) ) haven't got it. I don't know whether there's a God or not. There's a bit of a spectrum there, from those like me who think there almost certainly isn't a God to those who think there almost certainly is. If you think there almost certainly is, you are leaving room for doubt, which is wonderful, and you are not deluded (though you do need educating in the need for evidence, but that isn't the same thing). If you are certain there's no God, you are similarly deluded. Even if there's the remotest, infinitesimal chance that God exists, you'd better acknowledge that (I do). As in good science, the word "proof" has no place here. Delusion comes only from certainty. Unfortunately, certainty/delusion gives rise to dogmatism and evangelism. In this case your moral compass ceases to work. You do things such as hector others with the goal of getting them to acquiesce in your misplaced certainty. Professor Dawkins' book contains not one scrap of certainty (I've just re-read it this week in order to confirm that for myself). The "teaching" of religious faith to children, on the other hand, is jam-packed with certainties. It's no good trying to claim that good instruction in religion is filled with nuance. Little children don't get nuance. They won't understand your grown-up get-out clauses. You know exactly what you're doing by teaching little children that myth is truth (let's face it - you're lying!), and it is useless and dishonest to pretend otherwise. People of faith, even those of good will, rarely, in my experience, acknowledge this. Conviction is one thing, but certainty is everyone's enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:58 PM

That is just horse crap Steve. If it were true the book would be called
"Is God a delusion?" Or "The probability that God is a delusion."

He didn't say "perhaps there is no such thing as a Christian child."

And pretending there is a shadow of a doubt is not making you look less deluded, any more than Dawkin's speech about the fairies in the garden is expressing any actual doubt.

Have you seen him make the speech? The slick little grin and the snarky tone of voice. There is no doubt in his mind. Google Dawkins TED talk. Watch him speak uncertainty is not even on his radar.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:17 PM

You are fundamentally confused as to what aspects of these conversations we can apply the concept of certainty to. Time for your cocoa, Jack. Say goodnight to the folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:38 PM

You poor poor damaged man.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:40 PM

How about an obsession with trying to be clear in your opinions, and not have words put in your mouth? Of having someone look at your entire statement of opinion (with supporting facts and examples) and not pick out a three-word phrase (meme) and jump up and run with it into a rhetorical jungle.

I like seeing evidence of critical thinking and though I didn't study rhetoric or classical philosophy, I find the types of arguments (logical fallacies) some people come up with speaks a lot about their intellectual honesty. As to whether any of us is right, that's sometimes moot. It's how we got there that counts.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:52 PM

Amen SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:58 PM

Hi, Spleen Cringe. I didn't know that about the word 'delusional.' Thanks.

Charmion, that idea of your aunt's was a good one.

Valuable thought from the linked article: "Being right about something doesn't give you the right to drive
other people crazy, though."

I believe I live a life where opinions don't occur much. I don't watch TV or movies, and I read non-fiction books or mysteries. There's not much opinion in those.

Most of the time I make things, cook things, grow things, and go places. Opinion rarely enters in. I consider that a real blessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: olddude
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 10:19 PM

nothing to do with being right, has everything to do with being a hippocrite Seven years of constant bashing anyone of any faith, driving great people away from the forum so you can preach the new religion of Dawkins ... wonder why folks like me say F'off talk to someone who cares cause I don't anymore

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 10:33 PM

Hmmmmmm .....


Hmmmmmm .....


strange things seem to be happening here in the Madcat lately

not that I really give a rat's ass ... but interesting all the same.

biLL   ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Janie
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 10:36 PM

Well said, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:21 PM

Steve, you said: "Acknowledgement of lack of certainty is what is, er, lacking among a large number of those who adhere to God."

That may be so, Steve, but it is not lacking among the vast majority of people I've ever been around when pursuing spirituality or religion. Quite the contrary. What most of them are engaged in is simply trying to improve themselves as human beings and understand life better. They totally acknowledge their lack of certainty about a great deal while they are engaged in that process. They ask questions and seek for answers. Those answers are not found in rigid dogma or in rigid sets of religious rules, but through one's own life experiences...finding one's strengths and overcoming one's weaknesses, hard-heartedness, and bad habits.

Religion to you apparently stands for people clinging to a set of rigid beliefs and dogma. That's not what it stands for at all to me, and I absolutely avoid religious groups who approach it that way.

Almost all the religious people I know have no problem acknowledging their lack of certainty...and that includes lack of certainty about many specific doctrines and stories IN their chosen religion....if they have one.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:46 PM

Matter of fact, looking back at the first half (or third?) of my own life, I'd say I was far more wedded to the notion of certainty when I was an atheist than I am as a spiritually-minded person. Spirituality got me asking a lot more questions, and admitting that I had not nearly so many of the answers. And the questions just keep coming.

I don't have a set of BELIEFS. I have a purpose, which is to become a better person in whatever way I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:49 PM

Little Hawk is right. Lack of certainty, doubt, as Joe Offer called it on another thread, form everything I know is a big part of any religion. For me I just kind of think out each issue, come up with the answer that works best for me, put a pin in that one, file away my contemplations in my brain and carry on with my life.

I have my biggest doubts about St. Paul. I don't think he was a good person even when he was founding the church. What can I learn from that? What about when he says misogynistic things? On the other hand, some of his words about love were said at our wedding.

I don't see that in Dawkins. The only "doubt" he confesses is to say that God is as likely as the fairies at the end of the garden. Darwkins spends much to much time glibly mocking for it to be seen as doubt.

A lot of Christian dogma is a way to counter doubt. The Lords Prayer is a comfort. The 23 psalm helps you with your fear. You do not say these things because you are certain.

If you go back to his earlier works and read Dawkins material on memes on what they mean to him then look at the God Delusion and his later works in that light you would see that he has no doubt at all about his "faith." He is trying to change society by planting memes. He is trying to bring about the day when the children of Christian parents are monitored so that memes are not placed in their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:50 PM

I think we want to be 'right' because we are blokes, and we aren't sitting around a table. Flat statement. Blokes have trouble being empathetic in correspondence.

Correspondence between essayists of the past, clever men, but sometimes solitary, shows that blokes sometimes can't write to, or about, each other without going from flat statement to flat refutation to personal abuse.
It doesn't usually work like that when you are face-to-face, because there is no time delay, and you have the feedback of facial expression. You can engage in banter and mildly insult each other in a way that, if we did it on this correspondence site, will make someone want to marmelise you!

Now watch someone tell me that I'm totally wrong, and prove my point. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:16 AM

This thread is starting to look like Bob Dylan's Talkin' WW 3 Blues ... Anyone see a Cadillac drive through here ?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:29 AM

Absolutely! A while ago I was suggesting to a couple of folks on this forum, that if they didn't think calling me deluded was an insult then they ought to go to a pub full of drunk rugby players yell out and ask who believes in God, walk up to the biggest one there that says "yes" and as politely as possible tell him that he is deluded.

Do you believe this may result in a marmelising?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:54 AM

Naah, Jack. More likely get you a drink.
But if you state that Manawatu is the best club in the world, THAT could lead to a ruck.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM

The blind desire to be right is deep-seated. It is as fundamental as the will to live itself, since wrongness resonates with the ultimate wrongness of death itself. Obviously this is a sort of reactionary conflation, and it really screws up the thinking. But it is a wide=spread conflation, none the less.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:50 AM

This thread makes me uncomfortably recall that I have not yet returned to the silo-bashing thread to acknowledge there that I knew not of what I spoke.

In the meantime, instead of interminably trying to convince each other of the rightness or wrongness of the views of our hero/antihero, why not abandon that futile effort and go straight to the hero/antihero, write him and report back what he said in response? Would be infinitely more interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:41 AM

Jack I'm not trying to fool anyone. I did read The God Delusion when it came out - it was ok. I don't remember much about it. To be honest the Dawkins book that stuck in my mind was the far superior The Selfish Gene. Never read Hitchens because i never liked his style or politics as a journalist and life's too short. All the other books on religion and spiritually I've read are from 'the other' perspective. Like I said somewhere else, don't presume.

Leeneia, you're welcome. It's a little, um, 'gem' I like to share occasionally...

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:14 AM

The problem with this forum, is that too many people start debating from the standpoint that any issue is "just WRONG", without any relevant facts to back up, or even define that stance.

Being right or wrong is surely only in the mind, if not backed up by some rational argument?
What is right and wrong is determined by ones social and political ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:01 AM

Hi leeneia! I think the lifestyle you describe chimes largely with mine. I do have opinions but apart from on this forum, I keep them to myself! I spend my time reading, growing stuff, doing needlework, visiting my elderly friends and above all thinking. I think a lot. And most of my thoughts lead to the conclusion that 'I just don't know', or 'I'm not at all sure'. When I was quite young, I tended to be very firm about what was right, correct and irrefutable. The older I get (and I'm really old now!) the more I see that my theories may have holes in them. One of the qualities I most admire is humility and another is sensible wisdom. Many here on Mudcat have both in spades. Yourself, Little Hawk, Joe for example. People like you listen and learn. The other contentious and aggressive types don't listen, they bully instead. And they don't learn very much at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:08 AM

Brings to mind a road-dsafety advert from my youth...

This is the grave of Michael J
He died maintaining his right-of-way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along,
But now he's just as dead, as if he'd been wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:02 AM

Old army saying: "Opinions are like arseholes; everybody has one, and they all stink."

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:12 AM

"" Ego likes to think it has control and that it can arrange aspects of life to suit its wishes.

Of course, life, events and other people cannot be controlled so ego seemingly gets into a power struggle with what is. At times, it can be like a four-year old who doesn't get his way. Ego, too, has its own version of tantrums.

Ego often becomes attached to being right. The problem is that it becomes attached to being "right" about things that are often a matter of opinion.

I sometimes hear someone who has "found" the correct path, talking about how "unevolved" and wrong others are, and that everyone else is wrong. When this happens, I see that it is ego that has found this path, and it is "ego" walking down that path. It is ego that is speaking, and it speaks with the voice of authority. Not only does ego claim rightness when there is no right, but it also establishes a polarity, which brings with it distance between people.

Ego holds on with a tenacity and fervour that makes it seem like a life and death issue. In truth, for ego it is a life and death issue. We either continue to house ego within our mind-body, allowing it to govern our thoughts, feelings and behaviours or we let it go. Ego has a very deep fear of getting the transformational pink slip.

If you find yourself asserting that you are right, being unable to let go or simply agree to disagree, it is a sure sign that ego still plays a dominant role in your consciousness. Holding on to rightness is like closing a door to all other points of view. It often allows the argument to become more important than the person with whom we are conversing. It allows no room for expanding perceptions or seeing a bigger picture.

With ego out of the way, so goes the issue of right and wrong. We are then free to respectfully disagree and to learn from one another.""
Gwen Randall-Young


""Let go of your attachment to being right and suddenly your mind is more open. You're able to benefit from the unique viewpoints of others, without being crippled by your own judgment"". quote,Ralph Marston

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:14 AM

This thread is just SO wrong. And Ed, if you can't even spell addiction how wrong you must be too... :-)

Seriously though - Seeing as someone already mentioned Bob Dylan - One of my favourite lyrics is

I've heard you say many times
That you're better 'n no one
And no one is better 'n you
If you really believe that
You know you have
Nothing to win and nothing to lose

Like Mr Cringe I am more than happy to walk away but when I am told by someone that I must agree with what they say, do what they do or like what they like then the little devil prods me to have a go. Argue as I may it does not mean I am, or even believe I am, right. And even if I am the other persons opinion is equally valid. Even if it is crap...;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:20 AM

Religion to you apparently stands for people clinging to a set of rigid beliefs and dogma.

That is absolutely not what I think. Go and immediately join Jack and pete in the Very Very Silly column.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM

""And Ed, if you can't even spell addiction how wrong you must be too""

Of course, you are "right" dtg, or is it your "ego" posting? ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

did you hear about the woman husband hunting, and found mr right.it was only after the wedding that she discovered his middle name was "always"!

there are things that i am sure about,but dont feel the need to keep arguing about it,,and often retire from pointless debates.there are others who claim to leave room for uncertainty,,but rage on as though they were 100% certain.we know who they are,-even if they dont know it themselves[or own up to it].
i believe that it is possible to have firm convictions without being obnoxious.but if that includes grammatical errors, i plead guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:08 AM

Well, of course it's my ego but he is always right anyway :-)

D

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:24 AM

Former colleague of mine used to say (with tongue firmly in cheek) "I may have my faults but being wrong isn't one of them"!

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM

For many years, as a bachelor, I search high and low for "Miss Right".

I found her, too. Married her.

I just hadn't realized that her first name was "Always".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:53 AM

I don't normally get involved in threads like these because, no matter how well-intentioned they may start off, they inevitably end up in utterly boring and unproductive name-calling and vituperation.

However, since the name of Richard Dawkins has cropped up yet again, I thought I would just add that, on the basis of having met him and talked with him on a couple of occasions (and read all his books as it happens), he came across to me as a sane, sensible and - actually - very charming man. Not a bit self-righteous or dismissive, but very driven by the idea that the world is a beautiful and complex place; to understand our place in it and appreciate that beauty and complexity, we need to use our brains, our logic, our understanding, our reasoning - as clearly as we can. Religion, in his view, clouds and distorts people's perception of the world around them, and of other people.

He would be the first to say that science does NOT hold all the answers to Life, the Universe and Everything. It makes mistakes - but it invites others to test the hypotheses, make the same mistakes, make different mistakes - keep testing. There is none of the certainty, in the end, in science, that you get with some exponents of religion. A good scientist will always admit that - and a bad scientist, of course, will not.

He admitted to me - as he has publicly on television - that, in his earlier days, he was immensely angered by the concept that young children would be indoctrinated with beliefs that arose from superstition. His writings at that time, he feels now, were over-agressive in his efforts to combat that. As he said in the opening words to his Royal Institution Christmas Lecture series on BBC TV in 1991 (an annual series aimed at children), "You are the religion you are, mainly because of where you or your parents were born". A simple statement, but one which immediately shows religious inconsistencies. Born in Southern Ireland or Spain? Probably Catholic - and RIGHT. Born in the Middle East? Probably Muslim - and RIGHT. Born in India? Probably Hindu - and RIGHT... You can work out the end results of all that for yourselves.

That's my personal perspective on Dawkins. Enough said from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

>>>From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:20 AM

Religion to you apparently stands for people clinging to a set of rigid beliefs and dogma.

That is absolutely not what I think. Go and immediately join Jack and pete in the Very Very Silly column. <<<

Some people do not have an obsession with being 'right' they have an obsession with telling others that they are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:31 AM

It seems to me that a fact can be proven, while an opinion may or not be proven to be a fact.

All Poodles are dogs, all dogs are not necessarily poodles.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 10:41 AM

Some poodles are ferrets



http://mashable.com/2013/04/08/steroid-ferrets-as-dogs/

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:13 AM

Had a friend of whom it was said: "He may not always be right, but he's never wrong!"

He was a very smart, clever and dedicated guy who was usually 'right' in his facts, decisions and understanding of sitations.... maybe 95% of the time. The problems arose in that other 5%..... he just couldn't quite absorb the idea that he might be misguided, mistaken or plainly wrong.
He was also very good at arguing for his weaker positions, and was almost never directly combative or insulting...(he had a fairly important job for many years). In his work, he had the position that allowed him to 'win' most debates... and was well respected for his high % of good decisions. It was very hard for him to deal with being questioned in his private life... he expected to be 95% right all the time, and still had problems with the 5%. Those who knew him well managed to shrug and wait for him to 'adjust' his own thinking.... those who didn't often viewed him pretty negatively and sometimes balked at him even when he WAS right.

I'll bet many of us know someone similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:22 AM

Religion to you apparently stands for people clinging to a set of rigid beliefs and dogma.

That is absolutely not what I think. Go and immediately join Jack and pete in the Very Very Silly column. <<<

Some people do not have an obsession with being 'right' they have an obsession with telling others that they are wrong.

Telling someone who ought to know better not to misrepresent me is not an obsession with telling someone he's wrong. It's telling him not to misrepresent me, as he has done several times before, as indeed have you. The only sense here in which I am telling someone he's wrong is that I'm telling him not to misrepresent me. And now I'm having to tell you the same thing. The most energy-sapping and tiresome aspect of all these threads is having to put people right who have misrepresented you. It isn't as though I can't express myself clearly, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:24 AM

"All Poodles are dogs, all dogs are not necessarily poodles."

... and then there are Greyhounds


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:26 AM

Jack, I think that story about ferrets disguised as poodles is apt to turn up on the Current Netlore site as the new hoax of the week.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: olddude
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 11:50 AM

I should learn not to post when I don't feel well. sorry for the outburst but I do get upset that Jerry isn't around only because of his faith. That isn't right to do that to friends. My opinion. Anyway I should not blast out like that, it isn't right

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:14 PM

" It isn't as though I can't express myself clearly, is it? "

Maybe you can. But you don't express yourself clearly. You contradict yourself and you seldom, if ever, state your position or beliefs clearly. Instead you express yourself by tearing down the positions of others, using what seems like the most convenient argument at the time. Moreover you nitpick over minutia is a way that makes you look like a liar.

I once said you said you were taunting me. You got indignant and said you never did. I went back to your original post. You said that you were "ribbing" me and "prodding" me. I don't know anyone on Earth who would argue that "ribbing and prodding" is a conversation were not the same thing as "taunting." Certainly in my larger point that you were behaving childishly was not diminished.

This is similar to your recent obsession with telling us you are "not certain" I am sure that in some pedantic way, in your head this means something. But looking at your posts from outside your head, there does not appear to be the slightest hint of doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:34 PM

From what I see, it's not that being right is so much the problem with Mudcat as it is that when one member gets a wild hare up his ass about another member, he simply refuses to ever again have a civil discussion with that member. I've looked at plenty of threads where certain posters (some of whom are still here) follow another around on every thread and antagonize that person instead of letting the argument die on the other thread. They want to carry it to every other thread where they find this other member posting no matter how innocuous or harmless this other person's posts may be.

I won't mention names because it will only start the very arguing I'm decrying here due to the fact that somehow these people seem to have a lot of support from other Mudcat members despite having done nothing to deserve it or not having anything any other Mudcat poster hasn't done.

Yes, we're all afflicted with the need to be right all the time but, as others have stated, it's human nature. But once you have a difference of opinion with someone--LEAVE IT ON THAT THREAD! Don't drag the argument and shitty attitude with you everywhere you that other person posting (and you people know who the fuck you are so don't sit there nodding your damn heads).

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:44 PM

"A good example of what is wrong with Jack's arguments. These two concepts, Jack, are not mutually exclusive as you seem to think. It is perfectly possible to be entirely honest AND very rude simultaneously."

What do you make of this?

I have had many exchanges with musket, Steve Shaw and stringsinger, where I called them and Dawkins rude for using the word "delusion" and they countered in their own words that, no it was not rude "It was reasonable." because it was true.

I had a back and forth with MtheGM with him arguing that it was not an offensive word where he ended up admitting it was always a put down, and that he wouldn't use "delusion" to describe another's beliefs. So you can imaging the WTF moment I had when I read what I quoted at the top of this page from MtheGM.

It may sound cruel but I think it boils down to this quote from Frans de Waal.

"they are poor listeners. This ensures sparkling conversations when different kinds of them get together the way male birds gather at "leks" to display splendid plumage for visiting females. It almost makes one believe in the "argumentative theory," according to which human reasoning didn't evolve for the sake of truth, but rather to shine in discussion."

I am thinking of calling it de Waals theory of the Mudcat BS forum. LOL LOL!

(The last line is a joke. The rest of the post is slightly tongue in cheek, but in the context of the discussion about the Obsession with being 'right' I am trying to make a serious point.)

I hope that by now someone is getting the idea that I did not start the Militant Atheist thread to "bait" Steve Shaw but to make a serious point about all mudcatters who are somewhat dogmatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:10 PM

"Yes, we're all afflicted with the need to be right all the time but, as others have stated, it's human nature. But once you have a difference of opinion with someone--LEAVE IT ON THAT THREAD! Don't drag the argument and shitty attitude with you everywhere you that other person posting (and you people know who the fuck you are so don't sit there nodding your damn heads). "

I don't know if you are talking to me or to someone who appears to be following me. It doesn't matter. In some cases it is obviously appropriate to carry on discussions to other threads. For instance a discussion about whether certain members are being dogmatic, "Militant Atheist" thread to a discussion as to whether members see themselves as "always right" this thread.

I pointed out on my thread with the Patton Oswalt quote that it was perhaps not, appropriate to open up atheism on that thread.

but this instruction IMHO

"But once you have a difference of opinion with someone--LEAVE IT ON THAT THREAD!"

Cannot be hard and fast.

But as a general guideline it is good.

But we have to keep in mind that the forum has no rules about that and it can only be a guideline. (Joe I am not saying that is a bad thing. I am just saying that the price of freedom is that everyone is free including the mischief makers.)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:19 PM

One of my oldest best friends just can't admit being wrong about anything. In almost 60 years I have never heard him apologize for anything. Yet, he has good points. He is fond of saying, "Give me friends with faults I can stand; I can put up with anyone's good points."

"I am not arguing with you, I'm simply explaining why I am right." (Meghan M. my Grand daughter)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:00 PM

I have nothing to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:20 PM

And pray, Futwick (love the spooerism btw), gives you the right to dictate who should drag which argument where? This is the type of post I meant when I said "when am told by someone that I must agree with what they say, do what they do or like what they like". Whether I am right, wrong or indifferent does not matter as long as it is within the bounds of acceptable on Mudcat. Basically - Unless Max says nay, it is OK and it is not up to anyone else what anther person does nor does it matter if anyone disagrees with another or how. Mudcat is one of the last great bastions of internet anarchy as far as I am concerned and soon as that stops I will leave!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:42 PM

Dave, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think Joe and Max are doing a terrific job and I can't think of anywhere else that free speech and expression can take place as well as here.
I like to think of it, instead of internet anarchy, as a place where honest sharing of information can take place either musically or otherwise.

Kendall's grand daughter is delightfully honest.   And this is the nature of discussion that we get quite a lot on Mudcat. Statements like "you don't know what you're talking about" or "you're full of shit" etc. Even despite these brickbats, in the long run it isn't any individual who will determine what is "right" but we have to leave that for history to unfold.

I reserve the right to have an opinion which others may not agree with but I try to explain it in a way that doesn't require me to be "right" in a discussion. I have the humility to accept that I can be very wrong about certain issues but I also feel it's incumbent on those who don't agree with me to show me conclusively why this is true. Actually I relish intelligent criticism so that I might rethink my various positions on things.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

Somewhere in all the debate above is an observation from Sailor boy that a debate with me isn't worth having. I apologise for being right from time to time. I accept that as I am not superstitious I fail to have credibility with some but hey ho.

On the other hand, rather than an obsession with being right, many mudcatters this side of the pond seem to have an obsession with being left...

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:42 PM

On being wrong

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 02:22 AM

"Somewhere in all the debate above is an observation from Sailor boy that a debate with me isn't worth having."

That is not entirely true. More accurately, a debate between you and me on religion is not worth having because you disrespect me. As evidenced by your post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 03:34 AM

It is easy to respect. All it takes is an open mind. When that mind is closed, you have to knock on the door and shout.

If you don't, you assume there is nobody at home. Surely that would be even more insulting?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket on his son's device
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM

Just thought about it.

There is a huge difference between knowing you are right and knowing someone is wrong.

Being obsessed with being right is the paranoid stance religions rely on. Knowing the inconsistencies that question their stance isn't being right, it is questioning the logic behind it...

I am not religious. I have no idea if I am wrong. Religious dudes have no idea if they are right.

Sloppy op.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:56 AM

"It is easy to respect. All it takes is an open mind. When that mind is closed, you have to knock on the door and shout.

If you don't, you assume there is nobody at home. Surely that would be even more insulting? "


Again you prove that it is pointless to debate with you.

Or do you refer to it as de bait? Consult a dictionary baiting and debating are very different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 06:07 AM

>>Just thought about it.

There is a huge difference between knowing you are right and knowing someone is wrong.<<

No there is not. Not unless you are dogmatic. In, for example "The God Delusion" debate you believe that you interpretation of deluded is right and mine is not.

>>Being obsessed with being right is the paranoid stance religions rely on. Knowing the inconsistencies that question their stance isn't being right, it is questioning the logic behind it...<<

I don't think many people in an argument are capable of seeing their own obsessions. But that does not apply to you, It is recreation for you. You have said so.   

>>I am not religious. I have no idea if I am wrong. Religious dudes have no idea if they are right.<<

That statement is so silly it is a self contained joke. Arrogance and self delusion is certainly an apparent quality among certain militant atheists.


>>Sloppy op. <<

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:07 AM

"On a dead man's door, you can knock forever."

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:32 AM

>>And for the other 60% of readers, that translates as; Check the Maths.

Subject: RE: BS: Check the math
From: Bee-dubya-ell - PM
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:27 AM

Speaking of mathematics, why is it that almost 100% of the negative comments about the minor usage and spelling differences between English as spoken in the UK and in the US come from UK posters? No American outside of some ignorant Bubba who's never read a book by a British author would ever comment on a British writer's use of "maths" instead of "math". He'd just assume the author was a Brit and continue reading. Is there some inherent need to be "right" about such matters built into the British psyche?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:46 AM

Isaac Asimov once commented as a side note where he proof read a UK copy of one of his books and pointed out a typo. His editor pointed out in The UK that it was called maths. "Their language I guess" he said.

I suppose Sailor boy dragging this thread into that thread to prove his point is good on his account but completely misses the irony in the first place.

Ah well. Keep banging the rocks together.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:12 AM

Had to chuckle...almost every post in this thread, everybody is VERY VERY careful to be 'right', in being 'tolerant' to a wider view....until they argue a silly point!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:21 AM

Musty sans self control,

I should not have to point out that, that post belongs on this thread, not a serious one about economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:23 AM

Isaac Asimov once commented as a side note where he proof read a UK copy of one of his books and pointed out a typo.

a UK copy of one of his books and pointed out a typo.

a UK copy of one of his books

a UK copy

UK.

You include the context and still you ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:31 AM

Try repeating the sentence about irony instead then sit down and have a good think.

Hi Goofus! Funny how I say keep banging the rocks together and you wake up.

I would welcome the idea of someone seriously challenging my stance regarding knowing you are right being different to knowing someone is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:01 AM

Yes someone seriously challenging your illogical nonsense would be quite the "wind-up"

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:57 AM

Food for "reasoned" consideration:

""Opinions are usually based on a set of assumptions that are likely unique to the individual. Even though you may be sure of it, your opinion that you are right, and the other person is wrong may really be a reflection of your bias, views and values rather than an objective assessment of the other perspective.

Some issues are objective and others are subjective- it's possible you're right provided you have observable, objective facts. That's not the case with subjective issues.

Regardless, why is it necessary to change someone's mind on an issue?

Why waste your time when it is clear that the point of the discussion is not up for objectivity and what is discussed doesn't matter to anyone involved?

Debates are often respectful, interesting and fun, when it is not so, why waste your time?

Just because you know you're right it doesn't mean getting into an actual argument is worth it. Sometimes, it's best to just let it go and agree to disagree. ""

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:02 AM

When Katrina hit NO .... the first group on the scene was that "evil" Christian group the Salvation Army. They were there before the Red Cross allowed their members to go in because it wasn't safe. The salvation army gave food, cloths, shelter to the victims. Funny no "unlighted" atheist group took up the cause. Why cause it didn't matter I guess

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:12 AM

The Salvation Army is the only charity I contribute to.
In my opinion they are the only one that uses their contributions to do good. The CEO makes a paltry salary. Thats a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:13 AM

An atheist group were there you silly bugger. The Sally Army. You said it yourself.

They were there as a humanitarian help, not to push their faith.

I am here to wind up apparently.   But to say that religious groups have the edge on humanitarian gestures is an excellent example of the word delusion your nautical mate gets hung up over.

And is somewhat insulating to the rational majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 10:14 AM

Insulating. .

The Android word for insulting if you allow it to predict. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:00 AM

The Wind - tapped like a tired man"
By: Emily Dickinson

The wind - tapped like a tired man
And like a host - "Come In"
I boldly answered - Entered then
My residence within

A rapid - footless guest
to offer whom a chair
as impossible as hand
a sofa to the air

No bone had he to bind Him
His speech was like the push
of numerous humming birds at once
from a superior bush

his countenance - a billow -
His fingers - as he passed
let go a mus - as of tunes
Blown tremulous in Glass

He visited - still flitting
then like a timid man
Again, He tapped - 'twas flurriedly
And I became alone

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:35 AM

Me too Kendall, I just heard they reached out to the 57 people still in the hospital from the Boston bombing. I contribute all the time to them

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:44 AM

it really isn't about religion, right, athistm or anything else. It is about an aggressive attitude that drives away great people from this community ... for the only reason, they have a faith no matter what that faith is. Losing people like Jerry because of insults ... no right. so true to my word I will end my discussions on faith or non faith or whatever. If I can't be quiet anymore I will at least be silent

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 11:50 AM

should say I won't be aggressive so I will be silent. We also lost great people like Azizzi for other aggression besides religion. Very sad. There a a lot of people here that I love, that is why I hang around but I will say I sometimes wonder why

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 12:48 PM

GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman: "Hi Goofus! Funny how I say keep banging the rocks together and you wake up."

You're dreamin'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 01:23 PM

Spleen Cringe, you nailed it! This obsession with "delusion" is in itself deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:25 PM

OldDude, I've also considered leaving this place. It's ok to call a member a fool and a liar, but if you insult Maggie Thatcher, even though she's dead, the thread gets closed.

Gotta wonder about the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 05:49 PM

Rght on oldude.awhile back a new charity emerged.i think dawkins was involved."atheist aid".got to admit that its quite catchy.dunno that it caught on for the long haul though.
meanwhile the sally army and suchlike have been doing it for a long time and show no sign of slowing down.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 07:38 PM

I blame Dick Miles and I know I am right to blame him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 08:32 PM

I donate to the Mennonite services too. Although I am not Mennonite, I admire their work and service ethic, and can be quite comfortable in believing they are not crooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 13 - 09:39 PM

I donate to two... one accepts cash at the back door (and I cover my face when I do so, in an envelope, as is required, on every Christams Eve). The other, I give to once a year and get a tax chit for what I give. And when the rest of them come to my door, I pick up my donation dealy and ask them if they want to donate to the IWK Children's Hospital in Halifax... haven't collected ONE donation in about ten years of doin it, even when I said I would match their coin for their charity. I dislike those door-to-door twits.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 02:57 AM

The thread is called obsession with being right. It has become a list of people's charitable donations.

There is a link there somewhere. Just don't seem able to put my finger on it....

I don't tend to publish my list. After all I might not be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:19 AM

Just thought of it in another way.

I may or not be right but sailor boy has yet to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 06:20 AM

Right at 100. Wishing to talk to Musket sans nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans sailor seaman
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:27 PM

Wishing to talk to me? You started a few threads in order to keep me smiling. You said so in the one about Americans not knowing how to use the language we kindly left you with. (You still owe us the duty on a few cases of tea by the way)

I for one have problems asserting myself to be right. After all I don't have the self righteous conviction of religion to fall back on.

(Got there in the end. Our salty swashbuckler requires religion to creep in the debate. He just loves to be indignant. )

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 12:58 PM

What!
No semen in your musket?
You must be shooting blanks, then?
LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 01:10 PM

Why don't you at least try talking "sans nonsense" maybe you will grow to like it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans reality check
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 05:57 PM

Ok. I shall just speak avec nonsense in the correct arena.

The BS section of Mudcat for instance. Or when people try and assimilate reality and dogma.

I'll keep reality for when the phone is back in the pocket eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: gnu
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:12 PM

My obsession is with people respecting threads. I started several in the past months into which others came to tell me I didn't know what my thread was about... the thread title was wrong... the title was misleading... they talked about shit that should have been posted to other threads germain to their posts...

Essentially, these posters wanted to contol my threads.

When I tried to explain or objected, I was told I did not own the thread that I had begun and that I was laughable... an idiot. That I wasn't "right" and that I wasn't "right in the head".

I said some very nasty things in response. I regret that. It was a waste of blood pressure and a waste of good swearing.

I WAS right. I still am. Anyone can read those posts and understand what I said, what I meant, what I asked. IF they can get past "being right" and move on to discussing the substance of the intention... rather than calling me and my ideas and questions, essentially. "crap".

Maybe I am not "right" in YOUR definitions... but I am certainly not "wrong" in mine. Especially when I ask YOU to discuss things??? If you are so insecure as to start your "answers" with "gnu is fucked up eh!" then I'll tell all of youse who ascribe to that kinda chickenshit mentality once more what I have said so eloquently before in a manner and language I thought you might understand... as the need apparently be.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:21 PM

Now look here, gnu. You do not get to control the way any thread goes on the internet. Starting a thread is entirely your risk. This is a time-honoured thing. I've started hundreds of threads on a dozen forums and they nearly always get hijacked by some twat or other. No point getting all hoity bloody toity about it. Fact of life and all that. In fact, I think it's brilliant that threads get hijacked. How the hell would I ever get educated about Sheffield Wednesday otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 07:29 PM

I remember when Mudcat was a great site. Now, I'm wondering why I stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 08:52 PM

Ah yes, the Golden Age delusion...

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: treewind
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 03:49 AM

I can't believe nobody's linked to This classic XKCD cartoon yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:04 AM

You don't need to be hijacked to see the one true light. Just a tram ticket to Hillsborough S6.

You know, when people start or contribute to a thread they think they are focused. However, the subject matter rarely is.

Hence attempts, either earnestly or in jest to expand or test the debate are seen as hijacking or letting the troll out to play.

So what is the best thing about opening a thread the next day? Seeing those being precious get wound up. Without it, nobody would bother. Seriously. We think we are trying to debate but everybody enjoys a good thrash really.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 05:10 AM

I do notice that XKCD call it Math. Not worth looking at really...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 06:55 AM

Delusion? don't tell me what I remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: John P
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 11:39 AM

I disagree with the premise of this thread. I don't argue about things in an effort to prove myself right. I think lots of other people also don't argue for that reason. Most of the time when am arguing on Mudcat it is to confront bigotry. Gay threads and atheist threads in particular are always started by or inhabited by bigoted individuals, and I don't think they should be allowed to speak without being pushed back.

The other big reason to argue is when people propose laws that are not consistent with an evidence-based reality and that have a major impact on my life. Gun laws, economic policy, and the idea that all politicians are the same are the big winners there.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:03 PM

In fairness to Ed, and the "premise of the thread" He wasn't saying anything directly against you. His OP talked about generalities and even gave a checklist so that we could see if the article applied to ourselves.

As I recall, you do not exhibit the listed behaviors.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:10 PM

Bugger me. He has a list of what I assume he means behaviours now.

Please sir! May I fart?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 01:50 PM

Why not? Anyway, ain't it usually involuntary, like sneezing? To ask permission to do so don't make sense.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Musket sans species etiquette
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:13 PM

Asking permission to fart is being polite. Keep banging the rocks together.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 02:38 PM

Here is the article John.

http://www.tartaglia.com/pages/addicted.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 04:58 PM

As I recall, you do not exhibit the listed behaviors.

Christ on a bloody bike. Judge, jury, control freak and nutter all rolled into one. Is there no end to this sailor boy's talents?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 05:16 PM

My "rocks" don't need bangin' together to work right, buster.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: John P
Date: 23 Apr 13 - 09:45 PM

Jack, thanks, you're right. I'm not complaining about the OP. It's the way the conversation immediately went to Mudcat arguments in general, sounding as if the participants thought everyone who argues on Mudcat does so in order to be right. I take exception to it when conclusions are drawn about a group that I am a member of when those conclusions don't describe me. Actually, I take exception to it when those assumptions do describe me, since they probably don't describe every individual in the group. There was also a subtle sub-text in the conversation that people who act as if they need to be right all the time are in fact not right. This logical fallacy sets my teeth on edge. Actually two logical fallacies: assuming that A equals B with insufficient evidence, and trying to make a point by acting as if the underlying assumptions of the conversation are true when when those assumptions have not been tested and agreed upon.

I do see some of the compulsive needing to be right here, but more often see people who won't take on new evidence and so keep themselves in a state of being wrong about something. It's a slightly different thing, I think, and comes from holding some very strong but factually or ethically unjustified beliefs that for one reason or another they aren't able to change. The basic nature of the conversation is, of course, the same either way. The problem is compounded by the fact that many of us seem willing to say the same things over and over in thread after thread. It starts to look like needing to be right all the time, but is more likely a personality type that just won't let things drop. Having the argument is more important, in some cases, than who is right or wrong. I had a couple of family members who were like that when I was growing up and credit them, in part, for my love of the great outdoors. Again, liking-to-argue is a bit different than needing-to-be-right but produces the same basic result.

I think that unjustified name-calling and ad hominem attacks are a bigger problem, as is compulsive troll-responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 02:55 AM

Spoken like a true "heterosexual, homosexual activist"..... :0)

There is some hypocritical stuff posted on this forum sometimes,and the above post takes first prize.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 06:00 AM

The problem is compounded by the fact that many of us seem willing to say the same things over and over in thread after thread.

Well, that does happen. I'm sure I've said the same things with slight variations many times. You can do that (a) because the topic keeps coming up and is your hobby-horse. You can do it (b) because you think that by repeating the same thing you will somehow make it more correct. Or you can do it (c) because you don't like to see prejudice and bigotry hold sway in such a way that it brings the forum into disrepute. (a) scores 3/10, (b) scores 0/10 and (c) scores 7/10. (c) loses three marks not through lack of virtue but because these threads are not as important as you think they are.

I think that below-the-line would be a better place if there was a limit of one new thread per person per week. The recent proliferation of threads on God/not has done nothing to sweeten the mood of the place. At least one person should be ashamed of themselves for going a bit nuts on thread-starting, and some of us should feel a tad embarrassed for going along with it. And meta-discussions like this one are bloody useless. Absolutely bloody useless. Right, I'm just off to Dyson my navel.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:05 AM

Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is there no end to Barnacle balls buffoonery?

Seems every time you open a new thread there he is with his half baked psuedo intellectual ravings.

However....this thread could have been composed with Jerk The Sailor in mind.

Mebes we could start another thread on the lines of "Obsession with being a smug, self rightouse,patronisng Nautical fraud".

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:05 AM

This quite reminds me of some threads (not all) and some posters (not all):

""I rant, therefore I am""
Dennis Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:27 AM

John P. I think that Steve Shaw in his post after yours deserves a vote of thanks for exactly encapsulating your points. I really enjoyed this bit of sarcasm.

"(c) because you don't like to see prejudice and bigotry hold sway in such a way that it brings the forum into disrepute."

So obviously the thing to do is to call people names and "prod and rib" for the same reactions over and over so that to many, the "prejudice and bigotry" are the major features of the forum.

Johnathon Swift himself could not have said it better.

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 10:58 AM

To save an argument, for those who like 'em (and, no, I am not trying to start a new argument), quite = quote ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 11:27 AM

Dennis Miller is not the best role model IMHO

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 12:10 PM

""Dennis Miller is not the best role model""

It's the doughnut, not the hole, Jts:)

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 12:16 PM

Dennis Miller is quite the 'hole!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 03:36 PM

Who the flip is Dennis Miller?

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:23 PM

Dennis Miller Quotes


A recent police study found that you're much more likely to get shot by a fat cop if you run.
Dennis Miller
Study, Fat, Found
Born again?! No, I'm not. Excuse me for getting it right the first time.
Dennis Miller
Time, Again, Getting
The White House looked into a plan that would allow illegal immigrants to stay in the United States. The plan called for a million Mexicans to marry a million of our ugliest citizens.
Dennis Miller
Plan, House, United
There's nothing wrong with being shallow as long as you're insightful about it.
Dennis Miller
Funny, Nothing, Long
You know there is a problem with the education system when you realize that out of the 3 R's only one begins with an R.
Dennis Miller
Education, Problem, Realize
I rant, therefore I am.
Dennis Miller
Funny, Rant, Therefore
It's ironic that in our culture everyone's biggest complaint is about not having enough time; yet nothing terrifies us more than the thought of eternity.
Dennis Miller
Time, Nothing, Thought
If Clinton had only attacked terrorism as much as he attacks George Bush we wouldn't be in this problem.
Dennis Miller
Problem, Terrorism, Clinton
Washington, DC is to lying what Wisconsin is to cheese.
Dennis Miller
Lying, Cheese, Washington
Parenting is the most important job on the planet next to keeping Gary Busey off the nation's highways.
Dennis Miller
Parenting, Job, Important
Human beings are human beings. They say what they want, don't they? They used to say it across the fence while they were hanging wash. Now they just say it on the Internet.
Dennis Miller
Human, Used, While
I lapsed into rude.
Dennis Miller
Rude, Lapsed
The death penalty is becoming a way of life in this country.
Dennis Miller
Life, Death, Country
Elected office holds more perks than Elvis' nightstand.
Dennis Miller
Office, Elected, Holds
Everybody has to sell out at some point to make a living.
Dennis Miller
Living, Point, Everybody
I'm like Bush, I see the world more like checkers than chess.
Dennis Miller
Chess, Checkers, Bush
Just put down 9/11... I think, on most things I'm liberal, except on defending ourselves and keeping half the money. Those things I'm kind of conservative on.
Dennis Miller
Money, Down, Put
Never ever discount the idea of marriage. Sure, someone might tell you that marriage is just a piece of paper. Well, so is money, and what's more life-affirming than cold, hard cash?
Dennis Miller
Marriage, Money, Someone
We should fight to preserve a country where people such as Michael Moore get to miss the point as badly as he misses it. Michael Moore represents everything I detest in a human being.
Dennis Miller
Fight, Human, Everything
America may be the best country in the world, but that's kind of like being the valedictorian of summer school.
Dennis Miller
Best, School, May
I'm a comedian, for God's sake. Viewers shouldn't trust me. And you know what? They're hip enough to know they shouldn't trust me. I'm just doing stand-up comedy.
Dennis Miller
Trust, God, Enough
Most Americans will let liberals and conservatives play their games because most Americans don't pay attention.
Dennis Miller
Play, Attention, Games
Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but guilt is simply God's way of letting you know that you're having too good a time.
Dennis Miller
Time, Good, God
One man's Voltaire is another man's Screech.
Dennis Miller
Another, Voltaire
The only way the French are going in is if we tell them we found truffles in Iraq.
Dennis Miller
Tell, Found, Iraq
Share with your Friends
Share
Everyone likes a good quote - don't forget to share.
Biography
Nationality: American
Type: Comedian
Born: November 3, 1953
Links

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,concerned
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 04:57 PM

So he is still at it...jerk the sailor with his obstinate cut and pasting. .in the face of being exposed by all of his so called chums?....

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 06:42 PM

""Is The Better Part Over""
Willie Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 07:05 PM

What exactly was that load of bollocks, Jacko?

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 08:02 PM

"Sometimes you just have to pee in the sink." Charles Bukowski

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 11:19 PM

Everybuddy in this hole flippin' town thinks they are, like, right ALL the time, eh? Everybuddy! They are absessed! The real truth is that they are all WRONG most of the time and the only one who is ALWAYS right is ME. I am always right. I am NEVER wrong! I ain't never BEEN wrong! I never WILL be wrong! Becoz I am right. 100 persent right. And the hole rest of the world are wrong! Includin' YOU.

And that is alls you gotta know.

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 13 - 11:28 PM

Maybe you're just 100 proof right,

Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Apr 13 - 01:21 AM

Surely Shane has encapsulated many of these posts so very neatly?

Given name-changes to protect the innocent, of course.