BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:09 AM

Palestinian elections 2005 - Israeli style.
"Obstruction by Israel[edit]
The election campaign faced problems due to the widespread blockade of the Palestinian territories by the Israel Defense Forces. Despite Israel's assurances that it would do what it could to ensure that the election took place, in many instances Israeli forces actively interfered in the campaign.
Among reported incidents was the arrest of Mustafa Barghouti by Israeli forces and his subsequent expulsion from East Jerusalem when he was going to hold an election speech there. He was also prevented from entering Nablus and Gaza. Bassam al-Salhi, candidate for the socialist Palestinian People's Party, was also prevented from visiting East Jerusalem. Many of Abbas' opponents claimed that they were unfairly treated as Israel denied them entry to areas Abbas was allowed to visit during the election campaign. Abbas was the only candidate allowed access to Gaza.
Voter registration was hampered by closure of registration centers due to curfews, roadblocks and road closures. Registration staff and supervisors were detained. Israeli troops, used gas grenades and noise in the vicinity. A number of centers were raided.[1]
Particularly East Jerusalem was affected. Checking of the names of voters in the voters list was prevented. Also the polling was supervised by the Israeli postal authority. The votes were not counted at the polling centers themselves, but first transported to the Jerusalem electoral constituency office in Dahiyat al-Barid. [2] Voters were intimidated by recording the ID card numbers that were listed in the register and registration staff members were detained.[3]
There were difficulties in accessing polling stations. In Khan Younis Israeli soldiers opened fire against a school used as a polling station and by roadblocks prevented thousands of people from getting to the polling stations.[4]
The European Union's foreign policy chief Javier Solana criticized Israel for obstructing the Palestinian presidential election. He was quoted as saying that "We expected the Israelis to offer more facilities for the Palestinian election process but they did not live up to promises." [4]"
PALESTINIAN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION 2005
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

No Greg. What a silly question.

Take it up with TerraBus, FW.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 02:07 PM

"do regret us being unable to communicate in a civilised manner
Jim"
.,,.

???????

I see nothing barbarian in any recent exchanges, Jim. Seem perfectly civilised [& civil} to me...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:17 PM

"I see nothing barbarian in any recent exchanges, Jim."
Must be mellowing in our old ages - happy birthday by the way - if there is such a thing past sixty (another one due in 3 weeks)
Here's to more civilisation!
Jim
Have been meaning to ask - did you know Mike Herring - if so, whatever became of him?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:36 PM

Greg, your question was silly.
No democracies require a unanimous vote.
Very silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 03:51 PM

Thank you, Jim; but my birthday [82] was back in May.

No, regret never met him.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:42 PM

But there is a world of difference between the only democracy in a region which is rapidly reverting to open savagery and a terrorist organisation which has the complete destruction of a neighbouring country as the central plank of their constitution. But we will still see any Israeli response condemned by those useful idiots in the West who insist that Hamas is a legitimate, democratic organisation. It's not, it never has been and it doesn't want to be.

Professional ideologues, and those simply too stupid to make up their own mind, would have you believe that Hamas probably didn't do it, but if they did, they must have had a good reason. This is the kind of wilful ignorance – even the Palestinian security services agree that it was Hamas – that compels people to justify or explain the murders with counter-accusations and slurs before resorting to some nonsense about the IDF being as bad as the Nazis, and Israel being some of sort of Zionist, apartheid Fourth Reich.

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/how-dare-israel-defend-itself-we-only-like-them-when-theyre-victims-30398921.html#sthash.ocmemgMn.BXqxNf2F.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 04:56 PM

Same piece (Irish Independent)

In fact, Israel must be the only country in the world which is expected to accept the execution of three of its citizens without doing everything within its power to eradicate those responsible. But then they are used to being asked to stoically accept atrocities without retaliating, because when they do push back they are then accused of being 'disproportionate' in their response. This ignores the fact that Hamas routinely launch their rockets into southern towns like Sderot from schoolyards in Gaza, safe in the knowledge that any retaliation will provide the kind of footage that fools people into believing the Israelis like nothing better than bombing schools.

Eighty rockets have fallen on their soil in the last month. Would we expect any other country to sit on their fingers, hoping that the brave freedom fighters of Hamas will simply become bored and return to their mosques?

These are the questions which Israel's oh-so-liberal opponents need to ask themselves – does Israel encourage its citizens to strap on suicide belts and get on a bus? Does Israel execute gay people or women who wear immodest dress? Does Israel openly call for the destruction of another country and the genocide of its citizens? (And, in a case of business before pleasure, Hamas openly declares that they will first kill those Palestinians who have made a life for themselves across the border.)

Do opposing factions of the Knesset openly kill each other on the streets, as we saw Hamas do to members of their rival Fatah?
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/how-dare-israel-defend-itself-we-only-like-them-when-theyre-victims-30398921.html#sthash.ocmemgMn.h9tGz898.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:28 PM

Greg, your question was silly.

Take it up with TerraBus, FW.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:02 PM

"An IDF spokesperson would neither confirm nor deny the report."

Precisely why it is so difficult to give credence to the utterings and the integrity of Israeli sources.

The murder of the three Israeli kids is an atrocity and those responsible should suffer the severest penalty, IF, and only IF, the Israelis mete out the same to the murderer(s) of the Palestinian kid in East Jerusalem.

As yet, there is no evidence that Hamas had any part in the former, nor evidence that Israel (in the form of the IDF) had any part in the latter.

Yet Israeli apologists will insist that the former was a Hamas atrocity, while the latter was a misguided individual unconnected with the Israeli government, or army.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:10 PM

"Do some research on the number of abstainers.... before showing yourself up for a fool."

Abstainers may be present on both sides of any vote, and usually abstaining indicates those who lack the guts to vote for anything contentious, such as voting against the US position on Israel's exemption from any and all criticism.

More gullible fools on YOUR side than ours!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:15 PM

"We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid."

YEAH! YEAH! We hear it all the time. Only Israeli Law is to be considered valid, backed by stupid Yanks.

UN says illegal, and not because there are 50 Muslim states out of 192, but because Israel and the US don't recognise the UN, unless it is agreeing with their interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:19 PM

"I'll try it again - you have no evidence that they are not members of Hamas."

In both your country and mine, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.

You have to PROVE that Hamas are responsible, Get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:30 PM

"You also wrote that you did not participate in the referenced thread. I cannot know that since I don't know who you are (anonymity, again). If you are GT, I recall that there were no posts you. But I never claimed there were, so what's your point?"

You are correct and I apologise for posting before realising that I hadn't signed.

My point was that a thread with absolutely NO topic, is utterly useless, and to start anything with the label "except Israel" equally useless, which is why I posted nothing to it.

Start a thread on Egypt, or Syria and I will give my opinion on either, but I am not going to waste my life falling into the inanity of pointless and topicless nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:37 PM

"could not carry any vote without the support of a minimum 47 non Muslim majority states voting in their favour."

Do some research on the number of abstainers.... before showing yourself up for a fool."

Prat! For your 50 to carry a vote, it would require no more than 49 voting against. In other words 93 abstainers, which is ridiculous.

So there would have to be more non Muslim majority states voting WITH your 50, than AGAINST.

It's not rocket science!    Simple arithmetic, which I realise isn't your forte.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 07:55 PM

"And yet Musket all those decent people in Israel and in Palestine for all their frustration and shame still persist in voting for and supporting the same "Leaders" - strange that isn't it?"

When both populations are offered only the choice between BAD or WORSE, the decent ones have to choose or abstain, and whichever path they take, they still wind up with either BAD, or WORSE!

I'd love to hear what YOU can offer in the way of a third alternative, both for Palestinians and Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:28 PM

Palestinians Fake Kidnap Report of Youth by 'Israeli Settlers'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:05 AM

"Start a thread on Egypt, or Syria and I will give my opinion on either, but I am not going to waste my life falling into the inanity of pointless and topicless nonsense."
.,,.

Well you coulda fooled me, Troub!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:24 AM

"So T-bird: all those "leaders" have been elected by a unanimous vote?" - Greg F

No Greg at least not in Israel where political parties of more than one persuasion are allowed to stand for election, but even with the vote in a democratic process in Israel the coalitions formed look to Israel's security first and foremost.

Now in "Palestine" on the other hand even on the rare occasions that they have elections the results tend to be ignored and the side with the most firepower in the area wins and having got into power then find reasons to cancel all future elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:10 AM

Palestinians Fake Kidnap Report of Youth by 'Israeli Settlers'
WOULD THIS BE THE ONE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:14 AM

Hamas have belatedly offered to stop the criminal missile attacks against Israeli civilians.
A breakthrough at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:18 AM

Jim, no.
That was a different one silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:31 AM

An attempt was made to kidnap a younger brother the previous morning!

"However, Nussbaum said, police were quite definitive that another call the family made to police on Tuesday turned out not to be the emergency the Abu Khadrs claimed it was. On Tuesday, police said, the mother called police to say that "settlers" had tried to kidnap her younger son. She said that individuals had stopped a car in front of her house where she was sitting with her son, and that they tried to grab him. She managed to hold onto him, she said, and they left, at which point she called police.

Officers arrived a few minutes later to take her statement, in which she said "settlers" had tried to kidnap her son, but could give no details. However, a few minutes later the father arrived, and he disputed his wife, saying that it was Arabs who tried to kidnap the son."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182474#.U7ZWofldUuc

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:33 AM

"That was a different one silly."
That was me being ironic about a revenge killing nobody sees fit to comment on - silly!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:39 AM

I commented, 02 Jul 14 - 02:38 PM
Two days ago.

It has yet to be determined if it was a revenge killing for the Jewish boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:30 AM

"It has yet to be determined if it was a revenge killing for the Jewish boys"
Just as it is yet to be determined who killed those boys - hasn't stopped the lynch mobs though.
Despite this fact, since their disappearance "nine Palestinians were killed, two died of heart attack when the army raided their houses, tens were injured, many were orphaned, 640 were arrested, and families saw their homes demolished by the Israeli army."
Hardly "Israel must be the only country in the world which is expected to accept the execution of three of its citizens without doing everything within its power to eradicate those responsible" - as you put up.
It is hardly surprising that the rocket attacks have increased, given the overkill (in every sense) that is taking place at the present time.
There is a great deal of confusion surrounding the claimed attempted kidnapping of the Palestinian boy - hardly surprising in the circumstances - but you seem to have made up your mind on that one as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:46 AM

By the way - I find your link from an extremist Zionist publication which has been refused a license from the Israeli Government fairly despicable.
To claim that the murdered Palestinian boy came from a "troubled family" and his death was likely to be "a criminal act", and to head the article with a photograph of a boy throwing stones (totally unconnected to the victim), is about as manipulative as it gets, and in the present circumstances, extremely inflammatory.
To attempt to introduce it into this argument at a stage where we know so little is sewer-dredging in the extreme.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:24 AM

None of those claims were in the piece I linked to.
The same story is here in Haaretz.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602736

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:28 AM

This was the piece you linked to, which was as despicable piece of sewer journalism as you could get - typical of the lowest of the sewer press, and fairly topicality of your level of argument
(04 Jul 14 - 03:31 AM)
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182474#.U7ZWofldUuc
Have you stopped reading your own links as well as everybody else's? again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:35 AM

The same story is in Haaretz and elsewhere.

a revenge killing nobody sees fit to comment on

I saw fit.

Take it back?
Apologise?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:04 AM

"I saw fit"
You saw fit to produce a scurrilous piece of shit denigrating the dead child's parents and suggesting that it was a criminal killing -at a time when Israeli mobs were on the streets hunting out Arabs to beat up.
The Haaretz link which you later dug out to justify your gutter behaviour, gives no such detail, only a headline and a lead-in, and if I were a subscriber, and found it does, it is no less irresponsible at this particular time.
You claimed the link you provided contained none of those claims "None of those claims were in the piece I linked to." - you actually provided this, which does
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182474#.U7ZWofldUuc
Why aploogise to somewone stupid enough to tell lies over a space of a couple of postings.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

In fact the boys parents say it was a gang of Israeli settlers who murded their son
TIME
It seems that the "troubled family" and "criminal killing" was a Zionist exclusive.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:29 AM

I saw fit to denounce the boy's killing as despicable the day it happened.

If we are following the situation, how can we fail to comment on an attempted kidnap of a younger son the previous day.
It is unlikely to be unconnected, but I have not made my mind up as you accuse.

Your statement "a revenge killing nobody sees fit to comment on" shows you have made your mind up, and is false in regard to no-one seeing fit to comment.
I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 08:34 AM

Your Time article is dated yesterday.
The story of the previous attempted kidnapping was not available then.
The parents had no way of identifying the kidnappers of the murdered boy.
Let's keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:33 AM

"Let's keep an open mind."
Where on earth are you going to find anyone willing to lend you one of those?
You chose a shitty Zionist attack on the parents of the dead child to display how "open" your mind is - "that'll do nicely", as the ad says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 10:13 AM

You would conceal any such information?
Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:13 AM

"You would conceal any such information?"
There is no such "information" - today's reports of the funeral are still calling it a revenge attack, the parents of the boy called it a revenge attack, The John Kerry has deplored it as a revenge attack, The Times of Israel has said it is probably a revenge attack, witnesses saw the boy being bundled into a car by settlers.....
Whatever it turns out to be, as it stands at present, it is overwhelmingly regarded as a revenge attack - so what do you do?
You produce a statement from a minor official published in a paper that is even beyond the pale for the Israeli government, claiming that it was an act of criminals and blaming the victim's 'dysfunctional' family.
You have surpassed even yourself her by putting up "information" claiming that "Israel didn't do it", even before they get round to doing so themselves - which they possibly will.
Maybe you should give that nice Nessie-the-Yahoo a quick call telling him to call off the investigation because the real villain has been found.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:18 AM

The same story was in Haaretz and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM

"The same story was in Haaretz and elsewhere."
Where- can you link us to something we can open that repeats what your Zionist rag claims?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 02:50 PM

I did this morning.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602736

I am off now for a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:07 PM

Which says exactly this and no more:
"Murder of Palestinian teen was no 'honor killing,' says his family
16-year-old Mohammed Abu Khdeir's kidnap-murder set off rioting in East Jerusalem throughout Wednesday."
What the **** is an "honor killing" - gang warfare, an irate father... it certainly isn't the "revenge killing" that is under discussion.
No explanation, no 'dysfunctional family" - no "criminal act" just a an unqualified headline.
Today, at the funeral, the parents were still blaming the killing on Israeli extremists and a article discussing CCTV footage of the kidnap was still heralding it as a revenge killing.
There are no press or news reports tonight to claim otherwise - I have little doubt if any contrary information has been forthcoming Gatestone, et al would be crowing it from the rooftops - it is still being treated as a "revenge killing" both on the news and on the net.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:22 PM

The use of the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse is much to be deplored.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:38 PM

I agree with you MtheGM, it is too often used as a euphemism. Here is some background on the term and its usage: Anti-Zionism

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

That's right, Boo- its a "code word" used by anti-Semites; anti-Semites being anyone who opposes Israeli government policy.

Jesus, you're a tiresome git.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:51 AM

I use the term Zionism in the same way others use 'Islamism' - if one is offensive, both are.
I certainly have no ill-feelings to the idea of a homeland for the Jewish people, though I baulk at the idea of that homeland being exclusively Jewish - an apartheid state.
Perhaps a prefix 'extremist' might be a way not to give offence - happy to oblige.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:51 AM

I appreciate, Jim, that you intended no offence. It's just that "Zionism" is a term, & a concept, with a complex history & multiple possible connotations, and so IMO best avoided in the interests of clarity, and an alternative found if possible. "Israeli militancy", say, might be used instead. The Israelis are sure-as-hell a militant lot...

The fool a couple of posts back, who appeared to denounce Jesus as "a tiresome git" because he can't control his own sentences, is best ignored.

In fact, looking again, I find he is one I have already resolved to ignore, but forgot to read the name at the top for once. Must be more careful!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 06:50 AM

Will be more careful next time Mike -remind me next time I go ballistic, as is my wont
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 10:35 AM

who appeared to denounce Jesus as "a tiresome git"

You're kidding, right? You can't be THAT much of an illiterate, or are you simply an idiot?

In fact, looking again, I find he is one I have already resolved to ignore,

Ooops.

Well. ~M~, It's just that "Islamism" is a term, & a concept, with a complex history & multiple possible connotations, and so IMO best avoided in the interests of clarity, and an alternative found if possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:33 PM

Palestinians are being beaten up by Jewish Settlers, at least one Palestinian per day.
Too many Palestinians are imprisoned in Israel today. This is done in the name of Zionism.
BDS will continue to grow as these atrocities are being uncovered. Gaza is still an open air prison and Israeli laws have curtailed the day to day rights of the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 14 - 07:15 AM

It transpires that the Haaratz "honour" killing used by Keith to defend his gutter posting, refers to a rumour spread by the police that the victim was killed by the family of a girl he had supposedly 'dishonoured'.
The same police spread the rumour that he was gay.
"Israeli police falsely report missing Palestinian by was gay, flooding social media with disinformation
Tikun Olam 2 July by Richard Silverstein — Yesterday night, I noticed several Israeli Facebook users infecting my feed with false claims that Mohamed Abu Khdeir, the 16 year-old who was murdered by suspected Jewish terrorists, was killed in an honor crime because he was gay. With the help of an Israeli friend, I traced the rumor to, of all places, the Israeli police (Hebrew). They leaked (Hebrew) this false information to the media, which dutifully reported it as if it was true (it wasn't). The police claim (made anonymously of course) that it had "information" Abu Khdeir was gay was false. But this calumny spread like the wind, and a credulous Israeli public eager to believe the worst of Palestinians and refusing to take any responsibility for their own brethren spilling the blood of a Palestinian, took to social media like a raging plague and spread this bile everywhere."
The inquest on his body has shown that he was burned alive
Jim Carroll