BS: Off goes another violent thug

Subject: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:11 AM

A report in this morning's Times begins "A violent thug has disappeared from an open prison in the second escape from the same jail in two days". Reading on, one finds that was given an indeterminate sentence for public protection with a minimum of term of two years [Did you hear that? Two whole years!] for almost hacking off his sister's ex-boyfriend's arm with a 3' machete. The judge said he would only be released when the parole board believed he was no longer a risk. He had previously done 18 months after spraying a nightclub bouncer with CS gas; it doesn't say how he had become engaged with a bouncer in the first place.

Is it altogether unreasonable to muse on what such a person was doing in an open prison in the first place & how far that was compatible with his presumably still being regarded as a risk?

The open prison is in Suffolk by the way. Quite near here in N Cambs. Hope he isn't heading this way!

Am I alone in thinking that the entire world has gone absolutely apeshit?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:30 AM

Could be Hollesley Bay D Cat Prison, near Woodbridge, Michael. I've visited there often. The idea is that prisoners coming to the end of their sentence go to an open establishment to accustom them to life on the Out. This applies even to murderers ie lifers, violent robbers, anyone even starting as an A Cat inmate. From Hollesley Bay they can attend Ipswich College (taken in a minibus) or go out to work in the fields, greenhouses or the Suffolk Punch horse stud, all easy to abscond from. I've accompanied a prisoner on a Town Visit into Woodbridge. They get them once a month on a Saturday. The only rules are no going anywhere where alcohol is sold, and no gambling establishment. They have to be back by 4pm. They'd be daft to run off as they're nearly at the end of their Time, and if caught go straight back to jail, probably a C Cat, and get Time added on.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 04:45 AM

If you bang someone up for the term of their sentence and then just open the door, you get what you deserve. Open prisons represent part of the rehabilitation phase for many inmates.

Unless you advocate throwing the key away or the third world barbaric solution of executing them, you have to accept they will be behind you in the queue in the supermarket one day. Best that a programmed (hugely underfunded mind) approach to parole helps rehabilitate the offender and reduce the risk to the public afterwards.

Michael, there are far more open prisons closer to you. I'd buy new locks and become a hermit if I were you....

The recent absconding rate is puzzling. But when you look at the austerity restrictions Chris Grayling has recently carried out, perhaps not too surprising. Prisons are letting offenders down and putting knee jerk retribution ahead of rehabilitation so don't be surprised when, as in any walk of life, people wonder why they should engage with it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 May 14 - 06:35 AM

I must say Hollesley Bay was a holiday camp! They had a well-equipped gym (complete with a qualified gym instructor) Education, football training and matches against visiting non-con teams, Therapy of various sorts, then the workshops, agricultural work, the stud (which I have an idea has closed) forestry. Each inmate had his own room and a key to it. All prisons have a Chapel and a Chaplain. Heating, lighting, hot water, laundry facilities plus clean bedding every week not to mention cleaning ladies to do one's cell!! All the men were issued with thick coats for work outside, plus all other clothing as well. Some jails have a swimming pool. And a special minibus to take the men to College, where they mingled with the students and ate in their canteen. Drugs stuffed into pigeon carcasses, or left in the stables behind straw bales, were everywhere. All the chaps on Town Leave bought cans of drink. The inmates were a curious mix of white-collar fraudsters types, sent straight there to start their sentences, and violent scary ones coming to the end of their sentences.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 27 May 14 - 07:56 AM

I find all of this amazing. Believe me, you could not have walked out of Crumlin Road Prison let alone the cages in Long Kesh or the H Blocks as handy. Yes there were well planned escapes from all three, but there are no easy open prisons in the North of Ireland. Open Prisons are an invitation to walk out of. Magilligan up in Derry as a system of freedom of movement within the prison grounds for those within 8 months of release, but you don't get out past the gate.

If you get scooped, you keep your head down and do your time. This is either the result of an over populated prison regime or do gooders misguided faith in the ability of those prisoners to turn over a new leaf.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Seaham cemetry
Date: 27 May 14 - 09:05 AM

Or stupidity from your good self.

What would you do with a burglar? Keep him in till he dies? If you start from the premise that no prisoner can rehabilitate, you set people up to fail. I can't believe the stupidity of some here.

As there are no category D prisons in Northern Ireland, many Scottish, Welsh and English category D prisons take suitable offenders from the NI prison service, although this is possibly ending soon as NI debate the costing of a new category D service.

The NI prison service claim there is no overcrowding after the Good Friday releases.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 May 14 - 09:45 AM

Just seen on the news that it was indeed Hollesley Bay. I must say that, in my (not inconsiderable) experience, prisoners very seldom reform themselves, even after all the input given them from innumerable agencies. They appeared to me to be villains through and through. Their attitude was based on getting whatever they could by whatever means possible, while playing the part of a nice lad. Do-gooding doesn't have much effect, they merely laughed their heads off at it. Sorry to sound so bitter, but I spent many many hours travelling and visiting, and cared deeply about the youngsters. But the things they told me would make your hair stand on end. Even several Chaplains told me that they were most unlikely to go straight. The drugs are the main reason, and nearly all of them were on serious drugs. Believe me, prisons are awash with them. After being in eight prisons all over England, I finally gave up in despair. I know it's the fault of their parent/s and upbringing, but you'll never change them. Ask any Police Officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 27 May 14 - 10:40 AM

Considering the number of people in prison because the mental health services have let them down, I'm not surprised at your experiences Eliza.

That said, the mental health issues lead to drug issues lead to petty crime lead to first stretch lead to .....

I'd separate do gooding from finding answers to be honest. There are those who feel loving and caring gets a positive reaction and as a general attempt it doesn't work in most cases. The Lord Longford approach was humane but ill founded. That said, it doesn't mean give up on trying.

One of the sad yet made me chuckle at the time experiences was in a YOI when I sat with a group of lads and chatted about their outlook going forward. My colleague asked about access to education. One lad said "if we wanted to learn, we probably wouldn't be here." He was 17 years old.

We shouldn't give up. His quick wit shows lack of opportunity, not lack of intelligence.

I have knowingly given work to ex offenders in my past business life. Trust and hope are a two way street. An ex offender who served 17 years bought a house, got married, has two smashing kids and we still exchange Xmas cards. Out of over twenty we gave work to in one particular factory, only three dropped out without another job to go to.

A hell of a lot of habitual criminals out there, but as I said earlier, at some time they will be released and preparing them for that release is in everybody's interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 27 May 14 - 10:41 AM

Sorry Seaham cemetry, I didn't release the half dozen or so who had it away on their toes were only in for minor offenses like burglary ?

The news reports we received over here reported a Building Society robber (who cracked heads open)then went on to rob another Building Society after some goon (who you could probably relate to) thought it would be a nice gesture to let him out for the day to help old ladies across the road and lick ice cream with smiling children as part of his rehabilitation programme.

There was also a few other armed robbers and a light scattering of murderers mentioned, then again maybe you were not aware of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 May 14 - 11:51 PM

hollesley bay -famous as the alma mater of Brendan behan and neville heath

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 May 14 - 11:05 AM

MtheGM, are you still reading this thread? Let's hear from you.

Thinking it over, it looks to me like the media have told you just enough to make you fearful and angry, but not told you anything you need to know to protect yourself.

This escapee, what was he wearing? For example, in America, he would probably be wearing an orange jumpsuit, and he wouldn't get very far.

What does he look like? Is he tall, short, fat, skinny, white, non-white, blonde, bald, have tattoos? What strange men should you be wary of?

Is he a skilled criminal? Can he steal a car, rob a bank? Or does he have a room-temperature IQ? Guys like that tend to get picked up in a day or so.

See what I mean about the media? They told you just enough to make you feel angry and powerless.

What can you do?

Be alert.
Notice who's around you. Listen for footsteps.
Don't go for walks in isolated places.
Don't show money.
If you go shopping, park close to the door.
When you walk to your car, check your environment first.
Wear sensible clothes, not high heels and tight skirt. (joking!)

That's not everything, but you get the idea, I trust.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 May 14 - 01:02 PM

leeneia, MGM perhaps was selective in his comment on the escape.

The Evening Times of Glasgow (is this where he got the story? Date of paper?) reports that the "violent thug" "failed to return following a period of home leave." It suggests he may have gone to ---- where he "has friends and relatives."
He is "6ft 1in with sort brown hair."
The report is skeletal, and not much can be inferred from the item from p. 4 of that paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 May 14 - 01:25 PM

leeneia: Thank you for your advice. But indeed, as Q suggests, my affectation of apprehension as to my own safety was just that -- rhetorically affected. I do however genuinely feel that we tend to lean over backward far too much (and much too far!) in our attempts to redeem the obviously irredeemable. What may be the solution I do not pretend to know. The appropriate treatment of wrongdoers which will satisfy the often incompatible demands for justice, reform, and public safety, remains one of those great imponderables. But, as the great Thurber says in one of the morals to his Fables For Our Time: "You might as well fall flat on your face as lean over too far backwards."

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 May 14 - 02:35 PM

I also wondered what the paper meant by "violent thug." Did he get into fights in pubs, or did he violently assault people he robbed (etc.)?
He was on home leave when he disappeared- doesn't sound like the authorities were too worried about his "violent" behavior.

Sorry to change the subject but I wondered- Did UK ever have the chain gang?
It was a great corrective. I remember when a mayor's son (GA) was sentenced to the gang. His friends all turned out to watch and laugh. He never offended again.
Now chain gangs have a bad name and have disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 May 14 - 05:23 PM

Ah, but Q, we have the Howard League of Reform. Prisoners cannot be made to do any kind of work while serving their sentences. They may be offered work, but have the right to refuse it. They can stay lounging about in their cells if they wish. They cannot be kept in solitary confinement (called the Segregation Block) for more than a very brief time, and must be visited each day by the Governor if they're in there.
They have the right to a Visit once a month. They must be fed a diet chosen by a dietician and each dinner is tasted first by the Governor before being served to the inmates. They cannot be denied post, either receiving or sending. They can now be permitted to vote. They have the right to worship in the Chapel. They have the right to exercise in the open air once each day for one hour. They can have quite a large number of items in their cells, depending on the security rating of their jail. For A Cat long-term inmates, I believe the number of items is over a hundred. (Hobby and craft things, pictures, radios, magazines, catalogues etc.) They must be allowed outgoing phone calls using phone cards paid for by the prison. They must be allowed to purchase things from the shop on an order system (called 'canteen') Prison Inspectors arrive unannounced in teams of about twelve people to check that the little darlings are warm, have nice bedding, soap etc and their cells are in good condition. Norwich Prison had an entire wing closed down by these Inspectors as the cells were damp. I could go on and on. One thing they can never ever be asked to do is go on a chain gang!! Unheard of!!

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 May 14 - 05:30 PM

Here's some things I forgot. They also can see a dentist at any time, for free. Ditto a doctor. There is always a medical centre in a prison, and often a Hospital Wing. If necessary they go to the hospital in the town accompanied by two officers and are always given a private room (for their 'dignity') And they always have a TV in their cells, often Sky (which we can't afford) One prisoner in 'my' inmate's jail had had a sex change, and demanded a separate shower in his cell for his private use as he had the body of a woman. He got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 14 - 02:00 PM

I think I may have underestimated you Eliza....my apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 May 14 - 02:36 PM

Underestimated me, akenaton? In what way?
I have to add that during my time Prison Visiting, I also did Meals On Wheels once a month. The route was wide-ranging and we had fifteen clients, most in the depth of the countryside in Norfolk. The things we met with would bring tears to your eyes. Unlike the prisoners, these poor old folk were isolated and lonely. Many were in their nineties, and had mobility problems to say the least. Some sat huddled round a tiny fan-heater. Our meal was the only hot,cooked food they had, (delivered once a week by 4 different teams.) They sometimes smelled as no-one did their washing. I often got home in tears and worried about these dear old souls until my next shift. They'd committed no crimes, but the difference between the pathetic 'care' they got and the high standard of prison conditions struck me forcibly. My friend Ann and I decided to stop after a couple of years; it was just too sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 29 May 14 - 02:59 PM

He thinks, wrongly, that you are as reactionary and discriminatory as he is Eliza.

Mind you, some of your comments regarding healthcare for prisoners does make me feel rather sad. Nobody in a civilised country is sentenced to inferior healthcare. If it is available on The NHS it is offered to all. Prison healthcare is something I used to lead on nationally as a CQC / HMIP lead, and I can say with certainty that 1) prisoners, as anybody with restraint imposed are best served in side room accommodation for the safety of others, including reporters trying to gain access in high profile cases. 2). Patient line and other TV services are available to all patients if they can pay for it. A prisoner has no rights over and above any other patient. Neither do they have any restrictions over and above either other than freedom of movement.

There are many prisons and many models of healthcare. Where a prison has an adequate health centre, NHS trusts may send teams to do clinics including some invasive work, whereas in other prisons, even dentistry has to be outside. The funding and partnership in prison healthcare is variable across the country. There is no one model.

You mention a gender reassignment case. Psychological disorder is dealt with under NICE guidelines. It isn't helpful to mention an anecdotal case and infer a patient is less deserving than another patient. Yes, they are prisoners. Yes, they are kept away from society, but Nelson Mandela said you judge a country by the way it treats it's prisoners. On that matter, we hold our heads reasonably high. At least in terms of not denying NHS care.

That's the problem with your comments on this. The likes of Akenaton think it makes their bigotry respectable.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 May 14 - 03:50 PM

And is a country also judged on how it treats its law-abiding old people? I am not so cruel as to want prisoners to be denied healthcare, Musket. But the rest of us pay, a lot, for dentistry. I have seen several prisoners trundling down to the WRVS shop in the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital (where I also did voluntary work, among my many activities!) chained by one wrist to an officer, and not in the least embarrassed. They certainly didn't particularly want to hide in a private room. The therapy they were offered (massage, crystal healing, whatever that is, counselling etc) the rest of us would have to pay pay for. I certainly can't afford Sky TV. Did you know that a prisoner is allowed a money account, and can have over a hundred pounds in it? He can spend this on mail order goods, yet cannot be asked to pay for any services he receives in prison. I was as kindly-disposed towards prisoners as the next person to start with. That's why I took on the Visiting work. But my many years and many prisons merely opened my eyes at to the kind of people these men really were. To me, they should be given the barest minimum of resources and not cossetted. A great number are quite evil, dangerous and bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 May 14 - 04:34 PM

By the way, Musket, regarding the sex-change person; one cannot fail to sympathise with people with gender problems, and his operation was obviously necessary for his mental well-being. I don't deny this. But I can't find much sympathy for the problems encountered by this person once he arrived in jail. Nobody forced him to commit crimes and break the Law. That was his choice entirely, and the consequences are down to him alone. This fact applies to everyone sentenced to Prison; they chose to put themselves in that position. If they find prison not to their liking, it isn't a signal for us to run around trying to make it more pleasant for them, spending a lot of money in the process. I hope yourself and akenaton don't imagine I want them hung up by their thumbs and beaten; I don't think I'm unnaturally cruel. But there's a lot of romanticism about people inside which is misguided. Most of them are not nice people, trust me.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 14 - 04:50 PM

Nothing to do with support of bigotry or any other of Ian's idiocies.
I am pleased to see that you are your own woman, not ruled by any ideology.
There are not very many free thinking people around nowadays, it seems that you are one.

I understand exactly what you are saying on this issue(I know we disagree on others) and hope you are not subjected to any abuse for daring to contradict the "liberal" view of crime and punishment.

To some people, crime is always blamed on society, but there are people with no conscience, who will commit violent crime without compunction, people who are simply thugs and psychopaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 14 - 04:59 PM

Sorry, that should have been addressed to Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 29 May 14 - 05:36 PM

Thank you akenaton for your supportive comments. I do feel that many who speak up for prisoners and their rights have never been inside a jail or met any convicted prisoners serving their sentences. I have talked to several for 2 hrs at a time on Visits, and chatted to family members on their Visits to other inmates. That means quite a lot of conversation, insight and revelations. I've written and received dozens of letters from and to inmates. I've also spoken to many prison officers and chaplains. I've attended Crown Court proceedings and been to weekly Probation with various released inmates. I wanted to make a difference to the offenders and maybe by my support help them to change and 'go straight'. I did this for years, driving all over England to 8 jails, including Parkhurst and The Scrubs. But not ONE inmate changed in any way and they all went out and back in again as if through a revolving door. I learned (slowly, as I was quite naive) that they would always go on offending, robbing, attacking, mugging etc and had no intention of stopping. It's no use saying they were 'disadvantaged' or 'had a bad start in life'. Many other people have overcome these problems and led a law-abiding existence. I apologise for going on and on, but I feel VERY strongly that this country's limited resources would be better spent building more prisons, and putting more villains away for longer, and also in improving the lives of millions of old and suffering pensioners who need help and can't get it. I will step down from my soapbox now, and go and have some lovely toasted crumpets and butter!! (And a nice cup of tea)

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 14 - 12:13 AM

I'm still trying to clear my head of leeneia's idea of MtheGM in "high heels and tight skirt".....

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 14 - 12:32 AM

Eliza's description of a correctional institution in the UK:

Prisoners cannot be made to do any kind of work while serving their sentences. They may be offered work, but have the right to refuse it. They can stay lounging about in their cells if they wish. They cannot be kept in solitary confinement (called the Segregation Block) for more than a very brief time, and must be visited each day by the Governor if they're in there.
They have the right to a Visit once a month. They must be fed a diet chosen by a dietician and each dinner is tasted first by the Governor before being served to the inmates. They cannot be denied post, either receiving or sending. They can now be permitted to vote. They have the right to worship in the Chapel. They have the right to exercise in the open air once each day for one hour. They can have quite a large number of items in their cells, depending on the security rating of their jail. For A Cat long-term inmates, I believe the number of items is over a hundred. (Hobby and craft things, pictures, radios, magazines, catalogues etc.) They must be allowed outgoing phone calls using phone cards paid for by the prison. They must be allowed to purchase things from the shop on an order system (called 'canteen') Prison Inspectors arrive unannounced in teams of about twelve people to check that the little darlings are warm, have nice bedding, soap etc and their cells are in good condition. Norwich Prison had an entire wing closed down by these Inspectors as the cells were damp. I could go on and on. One thing they can never ever be asked to do is go on a chain gang!! Unheard of!!...
...They also can see a dentist at any time, for free. Ditto a doctor. There is always a medical centre in a prison, and often a Hospital Wing. If necessary they go to the hospital in the town accompanied by two officers and are always given a private room (for their 'dignity') And they always have a TV in their cells, often Sky (which we can't afford) One prisoner in 'my' inmate's jail had had a sex change, and demanded a separate shower in his cell for his private use as he had the body of a woman. He got it.

Well, yes, without the "little darlings," "lounging," "cosseting," and such inflammatory rhetoric, that's pretty much the description of a correctional institution run on humane principles. It seems only right for a "civilized" society to provide adequate nutrition, shelter, and medical care for inmates. It also makes sense to provide education and job training. Maybe an educated and job-trained inmate will go back to a life of crime once he's released, but it still makes sense to give him the ability to live life otherwise if he chooses. And all those "comforts" (which really aren't extravagant) result in a more docile prison population that is safer and easier (and cheaper) to control.

The alternative is cruelty, and I suppose there are many who believe that cruel treatment of inmates is justified. But does it do any good to be cruel, and does cruelty in incarceration make us a better society? And does cruelty to criminals help prevent crime? I don't think so.

In my thirty years as a federal investigator, I visited at least half of the correctional institutions in the State of California. Some of them were labeled "country club prisons" by the demagogues who screamed that liberals were "soft on crime." Well, I've never seen a prison that looked anything like a country club, and I've never met a government official who had a favorable opinion of crime or criminals. That's just rhetoric.

Realistically, incarceration is a necessary part of an effective criminal justice system, but it's a remedy that must be used judiciously. We also need to use creative, practical, tough alternatives to incarceration.

And so after thirty years as a federal investigator, I now work in corrections reform. It's interesting to see the views of UK people on this subject.

Certainly, it's not right to allow those NOT in prison to go without adequate food, shelter, and medical care - but the fact that such things happen, is not an excuse for failing to provide such things to inmates who do not have the freedom to provide such things for themselves. Your argument is invalid, Eliza.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 May 14 - 02:49 AM

I can say that in terms of healthcare Joe, we have gone a long way since it stopped being provided by the prisons and the budget moved to The NHS. As a result, both NHS and private healthcare providers supply the care. The links to hospitals and specialist clinics, especially mental health are showing vast improvements.

Nothing is perfect. There are still, as in your country, far too many people in prison who's original issue is a mental health problem that has not been addressed. Also, far too many prisoners are moved around the system, meaning continuity of care can he patchy. I came across many instances, including one poor bugger who due to such moves missed out for twelve weeks when his antiretrovirals ran out for his HIV + state.

Our present justice secretary is making political points by making prison life more austere. On that, any opinion is justified and valid. But basic human rights such as the same healthcare as anyone else in our universal system are non negotiable. I am proud of the system that one specimen above calls my idiocies.

I share it with 70 million others.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:41 AM

joe, don't think anyone is advocating cruelty to prisoners, that is also "inflammatory rhetoric".

Under the present system, a huge number of UK prisoners re-offend soon after release and I know for a fact that many see life in prison as preferable to what is available on the "outside".

Would we not be better to improve the conditions for the unemployable and hopeless in society before they offend, rather than making life in prison seem preferable to real life.

The real psychopathic thugs ....and there are plenty of them, are in a different category.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 30 May 14 - 04:55 AM

I went through a stage in my life where I was looking for a job teaching in prison. I went on quite a few interviews. I live in the UK.

I can testify that all the places i visited were so horrible that you couldn't wait to get out. bad enough to satisfy any sadist. depressing ugly dumping grounds for humanity, without a shred of thought for providing hope or redemption.

on the contrary to all the other contributors. I think English prisons need to be re-thought and rebuilt along more humanitarian and progressive lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 14 - 05:41 AM

If Akenaton knows for a fact that many would rather be in the inside than the outside, he must mean the ones who have come into contact with him.

Akenaton is inadvertently right in saying there are many people who have a personality disorder (as opposed to the inflammatory "psychopathic thugs" he refers to) and successive governments have looked at this differently. The issue being that they fall in the middle. If they are seen as patients, then care can be neither curative nor palliative, and if they are seen as offenders then you have to wait for them to offend before dealing with their issues. A bit of a catch 22, and the last Labour government got as far as a green paper on a third system where personality disorder could be addressed without waiting for someone to get hurt. Nice idea in principle, but don't forget that is the general gist the Chinese government use to dissuade dissidents.

Regarding the prisons, Al's impression is a wee bit nearer the mark, although there are rarely two prisons the same. Yet even the more modern, recently built even, that I inspected are not designed to make you want to go back in a hurry. Overcrowding alone means they are not even as humane as they were designed for, even the victorian ones...

We need a progressive approach and HMIP and The Howard League both stress the legal necessity for it in prevailing legislation, but chronic underfunding and the prison service is fire fighting just to incarcerate, never mind rehabilitate. The awful mindset of the justice secretary isn't helpful either.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 14 - 05:42 AM

I had toured many jails before I visited the jail in my own county, which is very conservative and quite wealthy. My county prides itself in using "more stick than carrot" in dealing with criminals, Most California counties can't afford to put people in jail for misdemeanors at $136 a day, but my county does. So, anyhow, my impression of the jail was that it was very safe and clean - but very sterile. Inmates had only television to keep them occupied, and many had to stand up to watch TV. Now we're opening a new, $100 million jail. It's state-of-the-art as correctional facilities go, but all that money was spent on security, not anything to improve the life of prisoners.

If inmates have nothing constructive to do, they just feed their anger and animosity, and become better criminals. We need to re-think our criminal justice practices. Correctional programs need to be constructive, not just kennels for criminals.

Yes, Ake, many criminals reoffend soon after their release from incarceration. Recidivism is a fact of life. We need tough correctional programs that push inmates into making something better of their lives. Perhaps nobody would advocate cruelty to prisoners, but people scream about "luxury" in correctional institutions that give the minimum of food, shelter, and medical treatment.

The fact of the matter is that the only luxury most jail inmates receive is television, which is a cheap way of keeping things peaceful. In our county jail, prisoners have a hard time obtaining books - all they get is TV.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:57 AM

'many people who have a personality disorder (as opposed to the inflammatory "psychopathic thugs" he refers to)'
.,,.
A clumsy & tendentious (*) distinction, Ian. Psychopathic thuggery is a 'personality disorder'; that doesn't mean that we have to be nothing but 'ah poor diddums' to those who suffer from it --

assuming they genuinely do, and are not merely exploiting the well-known possibility that they might: do you purport to be able infallibly to distinguish?

-- The experiences of those who cross the path of the individual in question are equally disagreeable, whichever summarising phrase for his condition may be invoked.

~M~

*(why "inflammatory"? There's an inflammatory boo-word as ever was! Purely a statement of the facts of the matter, I should say!)

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 14 - 07:59 AM

Please ignore itals in my last post -- don't know why the HTML went apeshit: it just does sometimes...

---

You tried to close italics with </u>, and that weirded you out. I fixed it. -Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 14 - 08:29 AM

I don't know why you go apeshit with it Michael but there you go.

Personality disorder isn't that easy to "exploit" and is a recognised diagnosis. Over the years, it has been sociopathology, psychopathology and plain weird. We all have it by the way, it merely means your moral compass wired differently. Sadly, it also makes many people rather dangerous as they totally fail to see what is wrong with their stance / position

Your mental leaps do the word mental a disservice.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 30 May 14 - 11:35 AM

I agree with MtheGM on this thread. I believe if someone has committed murder or a violent crime they should be held in a prison, not a fun park with day passes with a few quid in their pocket from the taxpayer to go out to buy week's issue of the People's Friend. Do the crime do the time. The taxpayer pays for protection.

Smiling well meaning old tarts in sensible Barbour tweed suits and retired Civil Servants with swede elbow patches on their jackets living in leafy Surrey don't make the best choice of candidate for a parole commissioners panel. Victims of crime or a pub landlord would make a better choice and less included to boost their own social ego at sherry mornings with the vicar as they know the mentality of the shakers and makers and often the neck breakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 30 May 14 - 01:17 PM

One prisoner I visited was as serial burglar. He said he did it to fund his habit, but he'd been on Subutex (not sure of the spelling) and got off the heroin for a few months then chose to have a fix again and become addicted once more. He told me he targeted old folk who weren't likely to bash him and would be easily terrified into submission if they found him prowling around in their houses. He said they would have cash stashes and nice rings, necklaces etc. He had sometimes burgled every house in a street of terrace houses during the daytime (confirmed by Police who did the Taken Into Considerations) smashing the back windows with a patio slab or using a screwdriver to force entry. He also nicked anything and everything from shops, grabbing stuff and running out of the door. He laughed at Security Guards and said they couldn't catch a flea. He also mugged people in the street at knifepoint and took their money and phones. He once mugged a CHILD. He was HIV positive and had deliberately bitten arresting officers, prison officers and security guards, spat at them and waved his knife at them. In The Mount, he even stole a large jar of coffee provided for the Chapel-goers by kind ladies who ran the prayer group. This charming individual IMO should be given plain but wholesome food, heating and lighting in jail, but NOT MUCH ELSE. He chose his life of crime, he chose to offend (and do such terrible things) If he doesn't much like jail, then - TOUGH.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 May 14 - 03:49 PM

"I went through a stage in my life where I was looking for a job teaching in prison."

Hi, Al. I taught in a maximum security prison for a year. It's like teaching anywhere else. Ya win some, ya lose some.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 30 May 14 - 10:37 PM

' on the contrary to all the other contributors. I think English prisons need to be re-thought and rebuilt along more humanitarian and progressive lines'

actually not just the prisons....England itself!

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 May 14 - 03:38 AM

I suppose, reading some of the salivating posts on this thread, I can see what it must be like to read The Daily M*il website readers' comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 31 May 14 - 07:17 AM

I once had a case which concerned prisoners nearing release or parole being permitted, as part of their rehabilitation, to work in an establishment other than the prison.

It was mooted, either by the said prisoners or on their behalf, that, because of the number of hours worked outside prison, the said rehabilitees might be entitled to "holiday pay", and this they claimed.

My understanding is that it took the ruling of a Treasury Solicitor to rebut any and all such claims.

NB I am not to be drawn further on this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 31 May 14 - 01:01 PM

Seems the liberals among us have found their voice. Career criminals love them. Always a nice soft touch seeing the best in everyone, they make great prison visitors and community welfare volunteers, even better magistrates. Maybe chuck the junk out of the spare room and instead of posting comments with their head on their shoulder and an eye full of tears, offer to take one home who is in the home straight to release and rehabilitate him ?

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 14 - 03:36 PM

That's just cheap talk, LK867. Liberals do not favor crime or criminals, any more than you do. Yes, you can find outrageous stories to support your point of view - but those are the exceptions to the rule. I hear all the time in the US about correctional facilities "coddling" criminals. I've worked in many of the facilities named as "country club prisons," and they certainly don't look luxurious to me. People and governments don't "coddle" criminals - that's just rhetoric.

But yes, I suppose liberals are more concerned about ensuring that correctional facilities are humane, and that they offer inmates a chance to reform their lives if they can. It IS important that inmates be treated humanely, and cruelty does happen regularly in correctional facilities if steps are not taken to prevent it. Abusive people are drawn to jobs where they can abuse others with impunity, and correctional facilities are places where this can happen easily. I screened correctional officer applicants for thirty years, and I have investigated a number of cases of abuse by correctional officers and I have seen a couple such incidents with my own eyes.

I used the word "rhetoric," which is actually just a nice word for "bullshit. Folks, drop the rhetoric about the "luxuries" of prisons and "coddling" criminals, and take an honest look at the reality.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 May 14 - 05:51 PM

whether or not elizas opinions seem extreme or not, it cant be denied that she has walked the talk. she has put the time and effort in, and so I reckon that carries some weight.
you do hear of success sometimes and " redemption" from a life of crime, but I suspect that these are the rarities.
imo, prison should aim for the correctional, but criminals should expect to be punished, and some measure of deprivation should mark their captivity.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 May 14 - 06:08 PM

Joe mentions 'cruelty' and 'abuse'. I have not in any of my posts recommended either of these approaches to offenders. Neither have I advocated removing 'humanity' from the system. As pete above says, I have indeed walked the talk. I have even been on a Wing, not normally permitted to a Visitor, and had several 'Chapel Visits' so have seen how life is on the landings and in the cells. The hundreds of conversations I've had with many inmates over the years has given me enormous insight (I say this with all humility, but it's nonetheless true) into the characters and types of offenders in UK jails. There are no doubt those who would like to see offenders flogged and starved, intimidated and made to suffer. There are also those who would like to see prisoners given all sorts of nice things and 'cosseted'. Surely there's a middle way, based on common sense and a realistic appreciation of what these law-breakers are actually like. One should also remember the victims of crime. I often think of all those terrified residents who hear a window breaking in the middle of the night, or come home to find chaos and all their precious possessions stolen, all those attacked in the street at knife point etc etc. I can assure you that prison inmates do not care a pin for any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 May 14 - 07:24 PM

Both Joe and pete have been known to remind us how their religion informs their approach.

Joe's view of treating people seems to reflect what we are told is a Christian approach. pete however doesn't appear to use any conviction in his view. Interesting.

For what it is worth, I have inspected over 60 prisons in England and have seen everything from people with mental health issues for whom society has no answer all the way to the famous and infamous. Unless you decide to incarcerate every inmate for the rest of their lives you have to decide what kind of person you are going to stand behind in the supermarket.

Setting your mindset by those who are either brutal or brutalised by their prison experience is not helpful to either society nor those who are both willing and able to become contributing members of society. I too can point to those for whom freedom is an interlude, but how that helps debate is beyond me.

Perhaps reactionary ignorance is beyond my intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 02:59 AM

No, Eliza, of course you would not advocate cruelty or abuse - and I did not say you advocated such things. However, I do object to your attempt to ridicule what really are reasonable and normal correctional practices. Of course, people in institutions are fed diets chosen by dietitians - that's what dietitians do. And certainly you can't think it overly generous that an inmate be allowed one visitor a month - or do you? Or that they can exercise in the open air one hour a day. All these things seem quite ordinary and usual to me. If you do otherwise, you merely succeed in making angry and hateful criminals into angrier and more hateful criminals.

As for cruelty and abuse, they do run rampant in some correctional institutions that are not well-managed, so it is a concern and must not be ignored - have you heard of the Magdalene Laundries, for example? Cruelty can easily become the culture in a correctional institution, if it is ignored or tolerated.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 03:50 AM

Regarding visitors to prisoners, most visits take place face-to-face at tables. The amount of drugs and contraband that gets passed across in this way is unbelievable. I've seen it happen in front of my eyes so many times it almost ceased to register. Babies nappies have now to be changed into prison nappies to prevent drugs being smuggled inside them. At the very Hollesley Bay prison discussed above, I was actually present when an inmate walked out dressed in a skirt kindly brought in by his visitor. No-one noticed the lady with a rather stubbly chin walking swiftly towards the exit. Visits should take place but as 'closed visits'. I've been on several of those, and the prisoner is behind a glass screen, usually because he can get violent or has had smugglings before.
I am (I think) usually a fairly compassionate person, but in this case, I have drawn my own conclusions and formed my own opinions based on my experiences. I really do not think prisoners can be 'rehabilitated' much. I sincerely believe that most of them are bad, and many dangerous. I don't think scarce resources should be used for their delectation. If the humane folk here feel sad for the inmates in prison, and have found their environment not to be terribly congenial, I advise them to encourage them to stay out of jail and abide by our laws like anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 04:19 AM

Absolutely agree, Eliza. It has always seemed to me that if a punishment is to be one, then it must consist of an experience the recipient would prefer not to undergo. The advice to be given, I have always thought, should take some such form as, "If you don't like prison, stay out".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 04:42 AM

Joe, no disrespect, but you talk as a visitor, I speak as a prisoner. LK867 was my number in Long Kesh. I spent three years in Long Kesh as a political internee during internment 1971 - 75. I also served 8 years of a 16 year sentence in the H Blocks, better known to you as the Maze Prison as a sentenced political prisoner.

We received visits from the (International)Red Cross, not the British Red Cross, well meaning people, who took on board our grievances but had little or no power to change the regime. There were several requests from Prison visitors support groups to enter the wings, these ranged from Christian Welfare to the Quakers.

The NI Prison authorities rarely permitted such groups in. Every time the arrived they were told at the gates there was a security incident (routine cell searches) and they could not proceed.

So Joe as to your remark "That's just cheap talk" sorry but personal experience tells me otherwise. As to "Liberals do not favor crime or criminals" Joe, they told us they forgave us, God forgave us, some actually gave phone numbers and addresses (which the screws took off us after the visit) telling us to contact them for help and moral support when we got out. Joe, I wouldn't have wanted half of our boys near my home let alone roll out a welcome mat lol.

Well intended people with a genuine good heart, but absolutely no conception of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 04:51 AM

UK law.

Removal from society is the punitive part of incarceration. Anything over and above by intent is contrary to the human rights legislation civilised countries abide by.

UK law.

If you see contraband being passed, you alert the prison authorities.

Eliza may be speaking her mind but on this subject, I would expect her experience to reflect a wee bit more reality. She is in danger of being dismissed in the same way as some of our less savoury contributors. Add prisoners to the list of gays, Muslims and anyone with a bob or two more than them. That isn't Eliza. I'm rather disappointed to see her one sided accounts and unhelpful conclusions.

Foaming at the mouth reactionary flog 'em & hang 'me has plenty of websites catering to such an outlet without polluting Mudcat. Just read what they are putting. If the sandals, beard and ethnic beans brigade can produce such specimens as some of the people salivating at the thought of punishing people, what hope is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 05:07 AM

There you are Eliza, just like clockwork!

He's programmed to say things like that......no one, but NO one, is allowed to speak their mind in his little world.
The agenda "ubber alles".

You obviously have studied this issue and have first hand experience, so you are a danger.
Keep strong, and when you are called bigot and other lies no one here will believe it.......They have been "rumbled".

For some time, there have been only one or two people "foaming at the mouth" on this forum and Ian is "Foamer in Chief"......pretty important?

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,LK867
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 05:19 AM

Musket, If you get scooped, you have to readopt very quickly. There are two ways of doing your time, hard or easy. The prison service generally stayed away from our wings besides lock up and open in the early days. Freedom of movement of the wings eventually came under under our control, that didn't happen in English gaols.

Loss of liberty is your sentence. Besides looking upon it as punishment, the prison regime wanted you to reflect and learn from the experience, I did, whilst there I learned to play the guitar and the pipes !

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 06:09 AM

Loss of liberty is your sentence.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

On other matters. Strange bedfellows indeed....

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 12:52 PM

Criminality in our area is usually associated with heroin abuse, I have been involved with addicts for the last ten years and have seen harrowing examples of child neglect, vicious retribution handed out by drug suppliers, even murder.

The profile of drug addiction in the West of Scotland is a stain on the Health Services, who have parked thousands of mainly young people on a methadone programme which kills more addicts than heroin does.

The central belt and towns on the Clyde Estuary are a social disgrace, huge numbers of people with myriad psychological problems stemming from years of alcohol and drug abuse to blot out the fact that they have no means of fulfilment in life.
This is indeed society's problem, but in the mix are a group of people who prey on these unfortunates....vicious scum who enforce drug couriers and money lending at knife point. The thought of these people being rehabilitated is a sick joke.....and they are rarely apprehended.

Like it or not "rights" should be earned not given as a universal gift.   How people behave and how their behaviour affect the rest of society should be taken into account when we speak of "prisoners rights".

There are crimes which truly should not be tolerated in a civilised society, people who rape or murder infants are one of the groups which are beyond redemption in my eyes......how do we "rehabilitate" people like that? Is it beneficial to the criminals or society even to attempt to do so?

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 02:15 PM

I remember some of the lyrics of Dago Peroni The son Of the Beach
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 14 - 02:22 PM

I don't have the extensive experience that Eliza does. I am glad for it, if that is the normal take away. In my opinion, Eliza is painting with WAY too broad a brush.

Career criminals may be just as Eliza describes (although I do doubt it; human beings are not all that different. Who was it said something like: Whatever is common to the human experience cannot be alien to me?) but the felons that I have had dealings with have a fairly good chance of remaining out of prison.

One served a year and a day for beating his cheating girlfriend. He says he'll do anything in the world to keep from going back.

Another was a burglar. In prison he turned to flowers and growing things. It is what he does now as a job.

Another had/has an addiction to drugs and alcohol. (I don't understand Eliza's bafflement that her anecdotal felon "chose" to return to drugs. That IS what addiction is.) This one has been free for more than two years, after spending six months in a 'halfway house' where he was allowed to hold a job and to go shopping but had to be back inhouse at a certain time every day. This fellow is the youngest of these three I recount and is also, in my opinion, the most at risk for recidivism.

All three have to report to a parole board weekly and to attend a support group daily, as well as to be subject to random drug tests.

Maybe people are different in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 04:13 AM

I've done some prison teaching too.

Surely the point of prison is - for the vast majority of prisoners - to enable them to return to society able to deal with other people better than they have done?

In the case of drug addiction fuelling crime, the best place to look at is undoubtedly Portugal, where all drugs were decriminalised 13 years ago, with the result that the crime fuelled by drugs has simply drained away. No more profit for dealers, no more violent crimes and robberies to get the money to pay them. If you're caught with drugs (other than a small supply for your own use), you have the choice of going to jail or registering as an addict. If you register as an addict you get free drugs and a rehabilitation programme that includes help with housing, work and psychological problems.

One of the results, less obvious to those who've never had any experience with drugs, is that addicts always get the same dose. (A big danger for those using *illegal* drugs is that the dose is variable - you don't know how much you're taking, because you don't know how much it's been diluted; and also you don't know what nasty substance the drug may have been diluted with.)

It's worked so well in Portugal that I can't understand why other countries don't do it.

Drug criminals - those who sell drugs or those who commit crimes to buy them - are a huge, huge proportion of those in jail in most countries. Get rid of the profits by decriminalising, and you get rid of many crimes.

We're living in a Prohibition society - it's just that the prohibited intoxicant is drugs now, not alcohol.

Non-drug-related violence is another story. Most of it is actually drug-related, but there's none of the social help provided for alcohol abuse that Portugal provides for drug use.

One very successful programme countering violence in prisons is the mainly Quaker AVP - Alternatives to Violence Programme - which teaches people how to resolve conflicts without anger and without violence. Very useful. Some of the threads here could do with it ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 05:05 AM

Methadone has been very successful in helping clean people, lowering the crime rates and the NICE guidelines suggest that although clinical quality diamorphine (top whack heroin) has less long term co morbidity risk, it's ability to wean people off is negligible. Methadone requires lowering the strength to avoid cold turkey, not chronic use. Sadly, it is gaining street value of its own accord. I attended a controlled drugs intelligence meeting for a large city only last week, and the police reported over 50 gallons unaccounted for (nicked) in a recent audit of chemists.

Incidentally, heroin is far cheaper to manufacture, but Methadone is lower risk for overdose.

Presumably the anecdotal impression Akenaton has is because methadone loses its edge when subjected to the Glasgow tradition of battering and deep frying it.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Seaham cemetry
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 06:22 AM

It looks like someone's knowledge and attitude towards humans is as bad as his knowledge and attitude towards greyhounds.

Still, who knows what the long term future holds?

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 14 - 01:35 PM

Would you care to repeat the false allegations you made concerning my disposal of greyhounds to a builder/butcher, in Seaham?

If you do they will certainly be passed into the hands of my lawyer.
My commitment to animals in my care is 100%.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM

I don't have a dog in this particular race although when speaking with Seaham Cemetery a few months ago when we met, I genuinely can't see the link myself.

That said, I find it interesting how Akenaton can slur, slander and dismiss people based on their sexual orientation, coming out with shocking lies and misrepresentations. Yet the minute his character is questioned, the word solicitor is mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 04:46 AM

I abhor cruelty of any kind and especially cruelty to animals.
I will not allow anyone to accuse me of such a thing.

If your friend cannot bring forward any evidence to support his/her allegations, an apology will suffice.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 09:58 AM

You'll have to ask him, or at least if you shout he might hear you rather than me. The last I heard he was in Scotland on a military attachment.

Actually, good acquaintance is nearer the mark than friend. Met him three times, twice attending my lectures and once over a pint. His late father and I were in a band together many moons ago though.

To SC.

If you are reading this, Hi! and email me. How did the West Midlands interest go?

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 11:44 AM

I am a registered greyhound trainer, one of my dogs is syndicated(a small syndicate of four). One of the syndicate is a QC, he has been interested in the allegations made by your "good acquaintance" and is of the opinion that they are actionable.

I never make threats, I make promises, and your "good acquaintance" would be well advised to apologise forthwith.

I allowed his/her remarks to pass in the first instance, but my good nature is not limitless.
Contact him/her and inform him.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 12:39 PM

You have possibly contacted him as well as I can by your post.

Watch my lips. Despite the stupid suggestions by Keith A Hole of The Paras whatever and your less than good self, I hardly know him. I know his name, knew his father back in the early '80s and I know his wife, a greyhound trainer herself has passed files to the police regarding those she and others feel were customers of the criminal in Seaham.

I know he is a doctor with military rank and he volunteered as such on these threads. Anything else I know about him professionally is privileged through my academic work as a visiting prof, as I was his assessor for a module recently. He was a baby when I last saw his Dad.

There. You know as much as I do now.

If you know a QC, you may ask him of the likelihood of Strathclyde Police acting on my concerns I raised via my ISP regarding your incitement to hatred. They can and occasionally do apply via Federal authorities in The USA for IP addresses and get them.

According to some twitter hate in a recent court case in Glasgow, it isn't unknown.

Don't worry about your good name. Such things have to be earned.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 12:57 PM

He knows my views and what I have written here, there has been no "incitement to hatred", no hatred of any kind, just verified facts.
Any other opinions are generalised, like opposition to "homosexual marriage". These views are shared by millions.

Your "good acquaintance" made specific allegations against me personally.
I would not be a "good acquaintance" of such a person, especially if you think he is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 01:01 PM

I hope you took his/her conduct into account in your assessment?

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 06:30 AM

Scottish "marriage" anyone?

You just can't help yourself can you? And then you have the gall to speak of a good name because you delude yourself that millions of others oppose equal opportunity for all.

A religion that less than 1% of the population believe in says it opposes something because it insults their bigotry. Is that your millions? The bells of Inveraray will ring a quarter peel for a gay wedding in a nearby hotel soon and your mate will be ringing the tenor.

This thread is about a perceived breakdown in society. Treating everybody as having equal opportunity may be aspirational but the government have done their bit in a) removing the nonsense and b) holding criminals to account for hatred.

Life is good

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM

I said that millions of people oppose homosexual "marriage", for many different reasons; not just religious ones.
Personally, I oppose it because it seeks to redefine the traditional meaning, to accommodate a tiny sexual minority.
I oppose it on social grounds as the institution will be in my opinion, weakened by the redefinition. Many people around where I live think that marriage has lost its true meaning, and soon will be no longer used.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 11:36 AM

Opposing the rights of others to be able to enjoy the same rights as yourself.

It's called discrimination, bigotry and what's more, doesn't meet the standard expected by society.

Millions don't discriminate. Millions support decency and equality. The views of those who don't accept the law don't count. Never have. Never will.

The only ones who redefine marriage are those who think their superstition defined it in the first place.

There are no reasons outside of religious ones. As you aren't religious, you don't even have the excuse of superstition. We are left with no more than an odious outlook.

Many people round where you live support equality and are comfortable to accept the rights of all to their own lifestyle.

You don't oppose society. Society opposes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 12:48 PM

You are entitled to your opinion, but if you seriously think this society is in any way egalitarian.....other than in death, you have much to learn.
The "marriage" rights of homosexuals come pretty far down the food chain.

Why do you never address any of the REAL inequalities in our system, starting with the huge gap between rich and poor, the schemes full of hopeless, drug blighted young people, parked on benefits and methadone!!
You and your kind make me slightly cross.

Subject: RE: BS: Off goes another violent thug
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jun 14 - 04:29 PM

many of us who believe in who musket dismisses as superstition are of the opinion that the reason so many people think that marriage is defined as one man to one woman almost universally, is that mankind is Gods creation and that he imparted general moral norms, and institutions. in addition, there is still a residue of Christian heritage even in many who are not otherwise practising Christians, that comes from centuries of Christianity in GB.
Either way, acceptance of homosexual "marriage" does not , imo, sit comfortably with many people , despite the spin put on it, or the intimidating tactics used by its supporters against detractors of the current drive to redefine marriage.