BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 02:05 PM

I see that I may have digressed too much from the OP. In which case, I'm very sorry about the thread drift. I'll bow out now and let things get back to the Grammar Question.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 02:38 PM

Eliza -- Yes, that is the correct title of Betjeman's poem. It begins "Phone for the fish knives, Norman". It will be found in an old Penguin Book edited by Nancy Mitford called Noblesse Oblige, which IIRC also contains the original scholarly essay by Prof Ross about 'U & nonU English'; an essay of Mitford's own on usage &c; and some correspondence on the subject between her & Evelyn Waugh. Some of Mitford's novels also have some of the upper class characters talking about what they perceive as 'acceptable' usages; I think either The Pursuit of Love or Love in a Cold Climate, or possibly both, contain passages of dialogue covering such topics. Both very entertaining novels, anyhow.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 02:40 PM

Thank you for your confidence BTW. Hope to have lived up to it!.

❤x~M~x❤

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 02:46 PM

Eliza - Carry on; the grammar question in the OP was answered within about 5 minutes, so ....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 02:56 PM

Eliza, who says you can't drift, especially in a BS thread?

When I was young, we used the word "sofa" or "couch" - never davenport or settee. But of course, we were never allowed to sit on it or on any of the furniture in the living room. That room was for the adults and their martinis, not for us common people...

There was class warfare in my family. We children were clearly the oppressed class.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM

My grandparents used "couch" as well as "sofa," but my impression is they thought it rather newfangled.

"Davenport," never. "Parlor," never. (It was the "living room").

Under their influence, I still say "icebox" for "fridge." And "vahz"; plus "avviator" for "ayviator."

"Raddio" never appealed to me, and I got ridiculed out of "tomahto" long ago. (I've never heard anyone in the USA say "potahto" except in the song.)

New Yorkers did not "bump" into things; they "bunked" into them. And they stand "on" not "in" line. Or used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:46 PM

"I think my dead mother is correct, but I don't know why. Oh, wait....I can't believe I found this - it's the mandative subjunctive."

I thik the teacher i correct, and the way that it was explained to me in Eng. Lang. was as follows:

"Have" and "be" will replace "has" and "is" whenever there is an implied "should" preceeding.

i.e. "It is required that the course (should) have an equal number of male and female students."

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:01 PM

DAMN! Keyboard full of crumbs, including the one operating it.

Should read "I think the teacher is correct,"

Now where the hell is that camel's hairbrush?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:12 PM

The reason that I doubt the idea of the "implied 'should'" is that that implied "should" is redundant. It would be enough to say, "Each course should have .... " (However, if it is a "requirement", then each course "must" have - which would still be redundant following "It is required that ... ").

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:22 PM

Just want to thank Michael for coming up with the goods as usual!

Sticking to the OP, I'd definitely say. "It's better that he have the measles now..." "I'd rather they be sent to prison than fined..." and
"Were I to repeat that..." In all three examples, the subjunctive doesn't sound 'clumsy' to me, just correct.

(Hope I'm allowed back on this thread, I'm trying to be good and stay with the subject!)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 06:28 PM

Troubadour, if you can't find the camel's hairbrush, why not search everywhere for it using a "toothcomb" - a fine example of what happens when those who are careless with language go uncorrected (it started life as a fine-toothed comb).

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 06:56 PM

As children we had a proper breakfast - cereals then eggs, usually with bacon, and bread or toast and marmalade. Like Musket, in the middle of the day we had dinner, and about five o'clock we had tea. I now realise that my parents would have had another dinner once the children were tucked up in bed.

Having been brought up to believe that teatime is five o'clock, I have often got caught out by teashops that close at five.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 07:01 PM

You use a "toothbrush"; why not an accompanying "tooth comb"?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 07:42 PM

"...better that he have the measles now." A good example. Both sides of the fishpond.
Eliza, don't let my comment about grammar cause you to leave the thread. We all wander off topic.

In Canada-U. S. tea is cakes and tea (or coffee at about 3 PM. One of the best in Canada is at the Empress in Victoria.

I remember in Scotland, after a day of driving, we were very hungry and tired about 5 PM. We stopped in a restaurant and had a proper tea (I took the pork chops- excellent!).

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 08:31 PM

I have never known anyone in the US to "take tea" with or without cakes at 3 p.m. or at any set or regular time.

When they want a cup of tea, they drink "a cup of tea." Same for coffee. Anything beyond the beverage is entirely at discretion, as is the time of consumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:12 AM

'Toothbrush' for brushing the teeth,
'Tooth comb' for...combing the teeth?
It started life as a fine-tooth/ed comb. (and not for combing fine teeth either!) I use one to get the fleas out of my cats' fur.

Anyone remember High Tea?

And Lighter, we in UK don't drink 'a cup of tea', we always drink 'a NICE cup of tea'. About every hour on the hour if one's retired!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:24 AM

Only one an hour, Eliza? Why, I should die of thirst...

x~M~x

And remember, a 'nice' one means just the tea: no milk or sugar!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:30 AM

Hahaha Michael! But you haven't seen the size of my cup.

(Sounds like the punchline to a rather dubious joke!) :)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:59 AM

Where I come from, we don't drink a nice cup of tea, we have a mash. There again, those weird buggers the wrong side of the Pennines have a brew.

This can be confusing, because if my pet dog has a brew, we evacuate the room quickly.

Whereas my youngest came back from university under the impression that to get mashed is to partake of the falling over liquid via a sniff of the barmaid's apron.




No milk Michael? Pervert.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 05:21 AM

Cattle lactations polluting a decent cup of tea, Ian? For shame!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM

Pull the udder one.

Baileys contains cattle lactations, you know.....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 05:40 AM

That's why I have drunk none of it since the one sip on Xmas Day 2010 -- the only alc to pass my lips since 2002.

You knew that; you're making fun, aren't you!

Mind you, I do have lotsa cream with strawbs or Mr Kipling Bramley apple pies 'n' such; & real Tesco Finest Greek yogurt for brekkie every day, with a frankfurter or a pork pie or a couple of multigrain crackers. But these accompany & enhance: they don't pollute

Anyhow -- who's perfect?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 05:44 AM

... Tesco Extra Thick Double Cream ···


YUM!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 06:10 AM

YES!!!!! By the gallon!!! ("Were I to limit my consumption of dairy fat...") (Subjunctive very much required, as this is extremely unlikely to happen.)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 06:26 AM

Ah, if only, Eliza: we could dance Les Sylphides together, couldn't we? And I was such a thinny when I was young. Look at my wedding pic, halfway down this, not just the one at the top --

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1091443/Why-I-helped-Parkinsons-disease-suffering-wife-plan-suicide--left-die.html

Then (1959) I was a thinso. Now I'm a fatso.

It was the Tesco Extra Thick wot dunnit!

LoL

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 06:46 AM

Bailey's - YUK

Tesco double cream - OK. But once, when up north, I was in a small town with only a Co-op, and their double cream was seriously weird, like jelly (jello, for you over the water).

On breakfast, here are three extracts describing breakfast, from The Little Breakfast Book by Jennie Reekie.                

W. Somerset Maugham (1874-1965):

"If you would eat well in England, you must eat breakfast three times a day."

Diary of Elizabeth Woodville, wife of Edward IV, 10th May 1451:

"Breakfasted. The buttock of beef rather too much boiled, and the ale a little the stalest."

Harold Nicolson (1886–1968):

"Edwardian breakfasts were in no sense a hurried proceeding. The porridge was disposed of negligently, people walking about and watching the rain descend upon the Italian garden. Then would come whiting and omelette and devilled kidneys and little fishy messes in shells. And then tongue and ham and a slice of ptarmigan. And scones and honey and marmalade. And then a little melon and a nectarine or two, and just one or two of those delicious raspberries!"

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:31 AM

I reckon another Mudcatter has been on the extra thick stuff but I digress...

I used the stuff again at the weekend when we had a BBQ. I always set out to make a pavlova and when I try to separate my meringue from the baking parchment, I decide Eton Mess isn't such a bad idea after all....

Extra thick double cream is also best for savoury sauces as you don't need as much to achieve the same effect.

I don't like full fat milk in tea to be fair, and the Sainsburys orange lidded 1% is about as good as it gets. When I lived alone however, I got into a rather bad habit of Frosties for breakfast with hardcore full fat gold top Jersey milk on top. My girlfriend, (now Mrs Musket) came close to falling at the first hurdle when she "inspected" my kitchen for the first time and made the connection..... (To try to impress her, I had made a lovely meal and she enjoyed it but started lecturing me on too much food. I thought "I'l keep my trap shut about the apple crumble I have in the oven...")

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:37 AM

I fully believe that good dairy produce does no harm. We don't have pig swill (ie skimmed milk) in the house. And I only use real butter for mashed spuds, on lightly cooked greens, and on toast/crumpets. My husband needs a lot of calcium, and vitamin D, so dairy is a good source. I'm old as the hills; I'm a good advert for the old milk/cream/butter/cheese diet! Personally I think sugar is the demon, not natural fat.
Michael, I was pencil thin too when I was young. My dress size was an 8 but with the waist taken in! My thick hair was so long I could sit on it. Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM

Ahhhh! That wedding pic: the day I married Valerie, 30 March 1959, I weighed under 9 stone!

Sigh!

I have lots of butter; prefer unsalted in general, but can eat salted when it's what comes in those little foil wraps they give you. We have semi-skimmed because it's what Emma likes. I don't do milk at all, in tea of coffee, so it makes no difference to me.

And you are not as old as the hills, my dear; why, you are not even as old as me...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 11:08 AM

But full fat milk tastes awful in tea... Granted, I'm not quite kinky enough to try Michael's solution, although I drink my coffee black.

With the exception of the milk, which is for tea taste and ironically, makes a better yoghurt, we tend to buy full high octane food. Proper butter, double cream etc. Moderation rather than watered down versions.

Lifestyle to health is a fairly subjective thing. I used to wind up our director of public health by saying that the happiest most contented people are those with a BMI of over 25, not under and happy in their skin. Stress is the biggest killer. If you have furry arteries, its still the adrenaline rush of blood pumping through stress or excitement that causes the actual issue.

I should start an agony column...

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 11:34 AM

Seriously, Ian. It really is much nicer without the milk, so that you can really taste the tea. Try it for a couple of weeks, and I bet you will never want to pollute such a delectable bevvy as tea with cow-juice ever again.

I expect that, like all of us, I have my share of kinks, at that [tho what they may be is very little of your put-in, Poky-nose]; but I really can't see why anyone should consider preferring tea black as one.

~M~

[Now, time for some entertainment ~~ where did I leave my rubber tartan kilt, my minklined handcuffs, my barebum spankipaddle, and my Marilyn-wig?]

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 11:38 AM

So the cruel stereotype of L***ys is correct....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 11:51 AM

Rubber tartan kilt?

You didn't used to write songs for Stan Arnold perchance?

"Whilst hopping about on a six foot stilt,
Wearing surgical rubber snow shoes and a plastic kilt."

Err.. if none of us turn up for the entertainment I am sure you can start without us... Eventually?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 12:56 PM

Hahahahahaha!!!! A Barebum Spankipaddle!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:07 PM

Fancy trying it, eh, Eliza? I am sure you have been ever such a naughty girl!

LoL.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:16 PM

Preferable is a mug of strong black coffee.

An article in "The Telegraph" says Britain now a nation of coffee-drinkers as tea sales plunge. 11 June 2014.
Coffee sales in restaurants 2 1/2 times higher than tea, says chief of Dunkin Doughnuts.
Coffee sales in high street stores at One billion pounds, more than twice that for tea. Mintel, market research specialist.

Is British taste improving?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:22 PM

British taste is impeccable to begin with.

Dunkin Doughnuts? Bad enough having to eat their ruddy doughnuts without thinking about their tea! They sell something called tea?

If you pour hot water in a paper cup and then put a teabag in it, it is not tea. Trust me on that if nothing else. I have travelled extensively in North America, both USA and Canada, and one year I recall spending over ten months within the tax year. I have never ever been given a cup of tea yet.

No wonder they don't understand it. They have never tasted the bugger!



(Are there any Dunkin Doughnuts over here? I can't recall having seen any and trust me, I would have ranted at it whilst driving past if I had. Ditto Taco Bell.)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:38 PM

I have to admit that there are Dunkin Doughnuts in Canada and U. S. A recent business item is that they are expanding sales in California.
For the UK, there is a store locator on the net.

These chains can no more make a good cup of coffee than a good cup of tea. I an sorry that I mentioned Dunkin Doughnuts in polite company.

Some Starbucks have good coffee but many are slapdash; proper care not taken by manager or barista. They do sell good beans.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:35 PM

I remember a Dunkin' Donuts [NB spelling] in Picadilly Circus about ¼C ago. Now it appears they are back -- From BakeryInfo website:

American brand Dunkin' Donuts has opened its first UK store in Harrow, north London, 20 years after quitting these shores.
Opening with a soft launch on 14 December...

I think I went to the one all those years ago, just to try. (Must admit I like doughnuts: eat lots of Tesco mini ones, either plain sugared or chocolate iced, but not the rather tasteless strawbs, while watching tv footie & tennis, along with their Southern Fried Chicken Straws & Bacon&Egg Bites. Ah me, no wonder I may be expanding a bit from that sylph-like character from all those years ago.) But iirc I drank coffee that time, altho I daresay that something they pleased to call 'tea' might have been available. Or maybe it was hot-choc at that, come to think of it...

Anyway, there's yr answer. Google Dunkin' Donuts & read all about it...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:50 PM

Ah...Canada and Starbucks.

The scene was Musket in a Starbucks in Banff, Alberta.   "Come on, make me a coffee I can at least taste. It isn't a Starbucks thing, I can taste the bugger in Starbucks back in Blighty. Make me a happy Musket, do yer barista bit."

"One real coffee for my English friend!"

Err.. Thanks.

Still weasel piss, but too polite to say anything.

Now.... Up the road at Lake Louise, The Deer Lodge hotel CAN make decent coffee you can stand your spoon on. The tea is as bad as ever mind and once drunk twice avoided.

A time zone West and there is a cafe at Whistler that is run by an Italian couple. They know what coffee is all about. Still crap tea though, all the same.

It's a bit like your southern neighbours. They don't get the water hot enough either. You have an excuse, the weather doesn't allow boiling water. But they even chucked it in Boston harbour. Too cold and too diluted. Possibly tasted about the same as usual though...

(To be slightly fair, most of my time in Canada is a fair few feet above sea level, normally there for the skiing, and as I know from my annual trip to The Alps, water boils at too low a temperature to make tea. Plus you have the French.

Always the fookin' French.....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: mayomick
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:27 PM

it is unfair to require that each course has an equal number of male and female students.


no faults detected by online grammar checks: http://www.reverso.net/spell-checker/english-spelling-grammar/
http://www.onlinecorrection.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: mayomick
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:35 PM

I would have been unsure and would probably have written "should have".Isn't it horrible the way you-sorry one- becomes all pedantic whenst writing upon threads concerning grammar and syntax?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:44 PM

I've just lost whatever respect I might have had for on-line grammar checks.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 02:13 AM

Meself, this is the original sentence:

"The student told the teacher that each course has an equal number of male and female students."

This is correct. Take out the subject and verb and you'll see it:

"Each course has"

You're being foxed by the complexity of the object:

a) "an equal number", and
b) "male and female students".

But don't worry about them: whether the verb is singular or plural depends on its subject, and in this case, that's simple, it's "each course". Singular.

If this makes you unhappy, you could recast the sentence for clarity:

"All courses have an equal number of male and female students".

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:56 AM

They all end up with student debt they can't afford to pay back anyway....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: mayomick
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 08:38 AM

Thompson , the original sentence is :

" it is unfair to require that each course has an equal number of male and female students "

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:20 AM

In that case, mayomick, the best way to phrase it would be "It is unfair to require that each course must have an equal number of male and female students". That's clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Airymouse
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 10:04 AM

Thompson. Even for someone like me for whom English is the first and only language, this is a tricky question. "Each course" is certainly singular. but the question is what is the mood of the verb. And the tricky answer is that the verb is in the (mandative) subjuctive. Had it been in the indicative, it would have been "has", because, as you say, "each course" is singular. So Joe Offer gets an A on the grammar quiz, but many, probably most, people would make the same error the student made.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 10:44 AM

Let's also remember that the grammar of informal speech is always a lot looser than formal grammar.

Also that some constructions - like those requiring the mandative subjunctive - occur mainly in formal writing. Thus the frequent confusion among speakers who have little occasion to use it.

Compare:

Formal writing:

"It is unfair to require that each course have an equal number of male and female students."


One likely form in everyday speech (others, of course, being possible):

"It's unfair to require an equal number of male and female students in each course."

The need for the subjunctive disappears.

In fact, most news and magazine editors would prefer the "everyday" form because it's simpler, more direct, and two words shorter.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:29 AM

I'm really surprised at the number of people here who seem unfamiliar with and baffled by the usage in question; i.e., the 'mandative subjunctive'.   I've used it in both speaking and writing virtually all my life, and I'm sure I've heard it being used all my life. I'd never had occasion to think about it until the aforementioned student asked me to explain why it was correct. Again, I wonder if this usage has lingered longer in (regions of?) Canada more than in other places ... ?