BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:35 AM

' "It is unfair to require that each course must have an equal number of male and female students". That's clear.'

Clear - but redundant.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:03 PM

It's normal for me too, but since we both wound up as teachers we're hardly typical of the "average speaker," who - let's face it - is likely to be less print-oriented.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:01 PM

Can you imagine people using the subjunctive on Facebook, Twitter and in texting? "Is poss he be dmpd innit?"

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:07 PM

They only say poss because inev isn't in the list of top ten words...

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:35 PM

Know your audience.

A verse (or is it "voice"?) from my youth:


Prince, when you call on a Brooklyn goil,
Say "oil" for "earl" and "earl" for "oil."


Slightly exaggerated, to be sure. But the actual vowels are (or were) nearly identical for many people.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: mayomick
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:59 PM

"I'm really surprised at the number of people here who seem unfamiliar with and baffled by the usage in question; i.e., the 'mandative subjunctive"
But you were unable to explain the reasoning behind the mandative subjunctive to your student and made a muddle of it when you tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 02:05 PM

Carrying out a mental process and being able to explain it to someone who hasn't a clue are two different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: mayomick
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 02:17 PM

True , but I imagine meself's student -who seemed bright enough to argue   a point of grammar - would have had enough of a clue to understand the mandative subjunctive if explained properly.   .

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:02 PM

I was accused of splitting an infinitive the other week in an email and the nice kindly recipient let me know.

In an attempt to match his wit and deportment, I told him to fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:27 PM

You mean, you 'told him to immediately f*** off.'

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:39 PM

My student was not 'arguing'; she has an inquiring mind, and wanted to know the reasoning behind what she accepted, on my say-so, as the correct usage. And she would indeed be able 'to understand the mandative subjunctive if explained properly' - which is what led me here in the first place.

Yes, I made a muddle of it when I initially tried to explain it. However, I am quite familiar with what I had thought of as a familiar usage. I was surprised to find, here, that so many people are unfamiliar with that usage. Further, I was surprised that so many would express doubt, if not outright denial, that it could have any validity, particularly after an authoritative, though certainly not exhaustive, explanation had been provided (that is, linked to). If I was baffled myself, it was previous to receiving an explanation; after having received such, my bafflement, in that regard, ceased. Now I am baffled as to why so many others apparently remain baffled.

I hope that makes everything clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 09:24 AM

Presently fuck off?

I told him gratuitously to fuck off, but I didn't tell him to gratuitously fuck off.

Not many words in that sentence predate Chaucer you know....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 02:59 PM

Ah, but you see, I put in a Split Infinitive for you Musket!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: bbc
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 08:49 PM

I would agree that adding should/could/might would make a more agreeable-sounding sentence, even if "have" alone is correct. Nice to see a grammar discussion, here!

If we are allowed to drift, I'd mention that I named my son after a naked statue in Italy or, if you prefer, my high school boyfriend. Poor David; he's so confused! ;)

Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: meself
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 10:29 PM

Do you not see that adding could/should/would makes the sentence illogical? If something is "required", then it is not enough that it could/should/would be; it must be, that being the point of the requirement. (As for the possibility of adding 'must', that 'must' is implicit in the idea of requirement; to use it in the sentence would be redundant.)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM

If I wrote in Latin, I'd have a hang up over split infinitives I suppose. but I write in Yorksheer...

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 03:45 AM

I had a lovely long conversation on Monday with my next-door neighbour who's a true broad Norfolk countryman. He talks just like the Singing Postman, and I find myself slipping into the same accent during our chats. 'Nprfolk' has its own grammar, dialect and pronunciation, as I expect does Yorksheer. Actually, most of the verb forms are already the subjunctive. "Thass be'er if he hev the operation naow; dew, he'll git arn his feet faaaaster." (He hev, he go, he do, he work etc are all by coincidence the subjunctive forms of he has, he goes, he does, he works) I love the word 'dew' which means 'if' or 'if not'. It's pronounced without a 'y' in the middle.'.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:55 AM

How you speak gives you away. My elderly father in law studied the classics at Cambridge whereas my studies were all physics and engineering.

We got onto the subject of Newton recently (Clapton only knows how..) and he referred to the prinkipia whereas I mentioned the prinsipia and I am sure we both would write principia.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:17 PM

Princhipia you fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 09:22 PM

"And Lighter, we in UK don't drink 'a cup of tea', we always drink 'a NICE cup of tea'. About every hour on the hour if one's retired!"

A nice POT of tea surely! Three cups each, and our kettle never gets cold between 8.00 am and 10.00pm.

That's not when I go to bed tho'. It's when I repair to my office with two bottles of real ale.

That's where I am right now, full of tea, ale and plumpsiousness, as Doddy would say!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:13 AM

You NEVER compromise on Newton, you fool!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:41 AM

I don't make pots of tea as I can't lift the blooming thing to pour. I make a giant mug of tea. With three tea bags. I know they're a bit dire, but very convenient.
If the 'c' in principia is/was pronounced as a 'k', was poor old Cicero in fact Kikero? (World Cup Mascot or something?)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Monique
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:30 AM

Yes Eliza, he was!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:31 AM

Glad this thread has drifted back on to matters gastronomic from its rather boring grammatical origins, on which I can re-engage with dear Eliza.

So, Eliza: tea bags have the disadvantage that you can't make up your own blends; even if you use two or three different sorts of teabag it isn't quite the same. Best thing, I find, if you can't do with a pot, is to make leaf tea in a strainer placed in the top of the mug, the water poured on to cover the leaves and left to infuse for 4 minutes. However you contrive, leaves of various teas, played with in various combinations or sometimes just straight [sometimes I feel like a cup of Darjeeling, other times a blend of smaller quantities each of Lapsang Souchong + Earl Grey + Ceylon, or ...?].

In any event, I think leaves beat teabags ☞☞☜☜☛☚ down any day of the week, whatever method of infusion one adopts.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:09 AM

I've seen handy steel infusers where you put a choice of leaves in and shut them (like two halves of an egg with holes in the sides) and let them sit in the cup while the flavour arrives. But teabags do for me. My husband adds horrible evaporated milk (can you imagine?) and three Hermesetas to his tea. Grooooo!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:15 AM

I don't have any milk or sugar or sweetener or anything. Just the leaf infusion.

I just happen to like TEA!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM

Monique, our Latin teacher was a very posh woman who'd rowed for Oxford in her youth. We were very working-class, and fascinated by Miss Bailey-Reynolds' accent and demeanour. She was frightfully patriotic and a W.A.S.P. in the worst possible way, and began our very first lesson with, "We're not Papists" (actually one or two of us were Catholics!) "so we shan't be using fancy Popish pronunciation of Latin. Caesar is Seezer and Cicero is Sisserow. There's no Latin oral to sit, so nobody is in the LEAST interested in your pronunciation." We spent all her lessons giggling as she intoned "Amo, amas amat" etc sounding like the Queen. To hear her announce, "Caesar Gallium in tres partis divisit." (or some such) was a delight to behold. My friend Susan had asthma, and we'd come out of those lessons with her wheezing terribly from giggling too much. But she got us through 'O' Level in only two years, bless her. I now can't remember much of the grammar, except that is was horrendously complicated with all those genders and declensions.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:50 AM

The Polar Ice Caps are melting, folks...

Last Tuesday I met Chief Raoni and Chief Megaron in London, who had come all the way from The Amazon Rainforest in their 'SOS AMAZONIA' tour to try to wake the world of the immense danger we are in...

Let GO of fecking Grammar and get REAL!!

Get out there, and do so fast, because, shortly, it won't matter a single feck WHERE you stick your apostrophe's''''''''''''''

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 06:18 AM

Re Latin pronunciation: I remember dear Miss Weavers, our lovely innocent old dear of a Latin teacher, teaching us how to tell the date in Latin. The Romans for some reason never got hold of such a simple idea of just counting the number of days they were into the month, but depended on telling the number of days before one of three key days in a month, the Calends, Nones, & Ides: so that 12th March is said as "3 days before the Ides of March" & so on. The month's name has to be in its accusative plural; and unfortunately [for innocent old her!] the one Miss Weavers chose for her examples was May - "Maia" ~~ whose accusative plural is "Maias" ~~ which is pronounced, in RP anyhow, exactly the same as "My Arse"! So dear Miss W was walking all around the classroom intoning, "3rd May: Ante diem quartum nones my arse", "10th May: Ante diem quinqum ides my arse"...

I fear we rather disgraced ourselves trying to suppress our natural response!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:10 AM

Anyone asked an ancient Roman how they spoke?

We know from rhyming verse that today's Pope would not be able to understand a sermon from a medieval Pope as it is.

I was brought up on loose tea. Glenghetti to be precise. Mrs Musket likes teabags though, Yorkshire Tea (hard water blend.)

I like it warm and wet.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 10:26 AM

Tee hee Michael!My friend Susan would have been rushed to A&E! We were terrible reverse-snobs and found any high-class accent excruciatingly funny.
Did the Romans have barebum spankipaddles do you suppose? I bet they did, as they were a sadistic lot IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 01:01 PM

My, Eliza, that linguistic invention of mine did get to you, didn't it?

ɷɷɷ☄☄☄〽〽〽☝☝☝▼▼▼❢❢❢ɷɷɷ

LoL

x~M~x

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:05 PM

I hope you wrapped it in brown paper before you sent it her? A box would help as the shape even wrapped would possibly leave little to the imagination.

Didn't the blushing postman come from Norfolk?



Have you got a red arse boy? Have you got a rosy bum?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:49 PM

Is there nowhere too intimate for Ian to want to poke his long nose!?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:40 PM

If I pointed out your long nose I'd be labelled anti Semitic.

If you are getting intimate with Eliza, do it on pm or risk having me provide a running commentary.

Talking of intimate. I was in Surrey this weekend, just got back. The bloke behind the bar in a pub last night, not knowing me from Adam, offered to sell me some Bongo Bill's Banjo Pills. Is this what getting old is going to be like?

Good price mind....

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:42 PM

Well I'm FAR too old (and fat!) for anyone to 'get intimate' with me!
I'd rather have a nice snooze followed by a plate of buttered crumpets.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 01:14 AM

As this is a grammar thread, should you acknowledge the colloquial existence of pikelets? The butter remains an international constant.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 03:03 AM

Regional differences in the names of certain comestibles are not a grammatical consideration, but a semantic one, Ian. I'm sure you are fully aware of the distinction really.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 03:53 AM

And their usage affects the grammatical construct of sentences. But I'm sure you knew that too...

As in;

SURREY

Where's the bin?

In the corner of the classroom sir.

BARNSLEY

Where's the bin?

Av' bin fo' a shit, where's tha bin?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 07:20 AM

But pronunciation isn't a grammatical concept either, Ian. Why are you being so bloody-mindedly obscurantist? What satisfaction are you getting out of so deliberately confusing the actual question at issue with irrelevancies?

I think we should be told...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:06 AM

Anyway, you shove off. Much more interesting talking to Eliza about cream and yogurt and tea and smacked·bottoms ɷɷɷ...

So just you take your wind-up-merchant doings elsewhere, if you would be so kind, my good fellow.

Much obliged

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:34 AM

Talking of bottoms;

If pronunciation doesn't inform grammatical construct, I'll show me arse in Burtons' window.

The problem is, I won't shove off. Without her permission, I have decided to appoint myself Eliza's chaperone. I have a healthy stock of crumpets, Lurpak and Adnams with which to entertain my charge.

I have no need of trinkets such as spankipaddles.

Up yours Gramps.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:04 AM

Which branch of Burtons? Will they be selling tickets?

Hubbah·hubbah!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:34 AM

Luckily for me, my comment regarding grammar precludes my exhibitionism.

As we are talking grammar, it would most likely be the Reading branch I suppose. Tickets available from a bloke in a kiosk near Leicester Square as ever. Be quick or they will be all gone for a Burton

Etc

Ad nauseum


I once did show my arse on stage. I was wearing kinky women's underwear at the time and when I bent over, I heard a rip followed by a sense of coolness. The audience felt it part of the show luckily. As we performed eight nights of The Rocky Horror Show, I can state my impromptu improvisation only lasted one night and by the next night, my French knickers were a different design (and size.)

Amateur dramatics and church halls. Cameron forgot to mention that in his "being British" bollocks the other day.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:50 AM

This is most fascinating. I seem to be being offered so far:- Adnam's ale, crumpets, (or pikelets) tea, yoghurt, cream, chaperonage and Spankipaddles. I'm overwhelmed. Next we come to a bare bottom in Burton's window, split French knickers worn by a man and some grammar.
I'm wondering what posters from other countries are making of this extremely Pythonesque thread! It's resembling more and more the Opening to the 2014 London Olympics!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:50 AM

Ah. Did I ever mention that I won the cup for Best Actor at the Sawston [Cambs] Drama Festival 1977? It stands on my mantelshelf to this day. I played Harold Gorringe in Peter Shaffer's Black Comedy. In a school hall, not a church hall... I had to put on a Scouse accent [the adjudicator asked if I really came from the North - I don't], but it wasn't a trousers-down sort of comedy.

Needs a polish!... The cup, I mean.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:56 AM

Not just spankipaddles, Eliza dear: barebum ɷɷɷ spankipaddles!

And all this because silly old U-No-Who called me kinky for liking my tea without milk. I ask you --- where does he get off?

And what about my Marilyn-wig, then? Why didn't anybody get just as turned on by my mentioning that?

ɷ~M~ɷ

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM

I meant 2012 of course. The blasted football is all we have this year!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:20 AM

The blasted football is all we have this year!
Wimbledon starts in a fortnight!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Question: that he/she/it have
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 11:26 AM

No it doesn't. It starts in a week!