AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 03:56 PM

*He* wasn't an academic, nor did he ever claim to be. But his orientation was in line with the prevailing academic romanticism. He was a real expert in the sense that he knew far more about folk music than did most people.

Lloyd's affinity for romance (including the Marxist kind) makes his various sleeve notes and "Folksong in England" a pleasure to read. How fully reliable they may be, however, is another question.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:43 PM

Not as yet Brian but honest I will read Roy Palmer. It would be intrestin to know in what sense Bert was an academic. Did he have an official post as such in a place of Higher Education? I guess I will have to read Paul's biog again

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:22 PM

Once a scholar has been 'outed' I think we can be excused for taking the rest of their contribution with a pinch of salt, or at least research the material ourselves.

Having said that I have no gripe with MacColl and Seeger, Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland.

It has been said many times on many threads, the songs Bert and Ewan mediated are among some of the best we have. We should and do sing them and celebrate them. We just shouldn't use them as examples of items that have come from oral tradition. It's quite simple really.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:13 PM

"As to the motives of Bert & Ewan surely they were intent on popularising the music of working people and showing that when people came to the factories and mills from the land to the Industrial Revolution they brought their songs and creativity with them."

Les, I hope you'll have read Roy Palmer's 'Working Songs'. A real treasure trove of well-documented and authentic songs that really were sung by working people in factories, mills and mines.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

Nobody likes to be fooled, and experts (and Lloyd was one)shouldn't set out to fool them.

So the answer is yes.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:40 PM

"Wherever there's a noticeable difference, Lloyd's lyrics really are superior to those of his sources, direct or conflated. The improvements are always tactful and often no more than a few words. That makes them more palatable. "

Matter of opinion on point one, he has been known to make up most of some songs - probably the Blackleg Miner for one.


Intrestin point Dave - maybe nothing is terribly wrong in folk, although we all have something in the closet.

making up people is more than a bit crap isn't it?

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:37 PM

Entertainment v historical accuracy.... discuss.....

Kitty

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 12:17 PM

I know it is a bit of a stock answer of mine whenever this type of thread comes up but once again there must be dozens of singers who perform "The Recruited Collier", "Jack Orion", "Two Magicians", "The Demon Lover" and "Reynardine" (to mention but a few) who have never even heard of A.L.Lloyd. So what he did – was it so terribly wrong?

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 11:35 AM

Wherever there's a noticeable difference, Lloyd's lyrics really are superior to those of his sources, direct or conflated. The improvements are always tactful and often no more than a few words. That makes them more palatable.

Of course, if all one cares about is a "good song" as experienced in the here and now, there's no problem.

The difficulty is for those who, long ago, were led to "study" (as Nick Dow says) Lloyd's versions as the real McCoy. The invention of imaginary, named informants is inexcusable. Why not just say, "This is my version of an old song that blah blah blah blah...."

Presumably because Lloyd saw himself as the spokesman of mute, inglorious Miltons. Who, in such cases, didn't quite exist.

Others thought of themselves in much the same way, but without the scholarly veneer.

We can absolve Lloyd and MacColl of responsibility for the "fertility" stuff. That had been the orientation of many romantic, academic folklorists for decades.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM

A number of genuine academics have brought much light to 'folk', Georgina Boyes for one. The problem in the 1960s onwards was people adopting Bert & Ewan's view and all that make believe about Morris and fertility and so on with out any real recourse to evidence.

Subject: RE AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:47 AM

Good point Les. I never considered that. Being chucked into an academic mess full of persons with loads of brains and no common sense is something that happened to me in the 1980's when I was song collecting. I ended up throwing my toys out of my pram and sulking for a decade or so. You would be amazed at the venom spat at me. I can sort of forgive Bert for cutting a few corners. {I think} Something about the road to hell and good intentions springs to mind.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 07:22 AM

I don't expect anybody to read the 300 + posts on the thread shown above - I think Bert has been 'outed' for a number of 'crimes'. One I think he should be forgiven for is attaching 'Donald where's your trousers' to Jack Orien.

As to the motives of Bert & Ewan surely they were intent on popularising the music of working people and showing that when people came to the factories and mills from the land to the Industrial Revolution they brought their songs and creativity with them. In the process the songs evolved to reflect the new working circumstances in which people found themselves.

As Marxists they new the 'theory' and if they had to generate some songs and some sources they just did it.

They were clearly dishonest in giving surces that didn't exist - they weren't academic but got adopted as such by others.

Does their contribution to the Second Revival still stand above all others? I think so

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 06:33 AM

Sorry Mick typical Nick Dow shortcut.

Brian, yes it's chicken and egg I suppose. I think the Somerset version might be related to The Bonnie Irish Boy {not to be confused with The Labouring Boy} Shirley Collins got a version from an Irish bus conductor in the 1950's
With a bit of adaption it might be worth singing. This is sort of where we came in isn't it?

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:54 AM

Ah, thank you, Brian; that makes good sense. In fact, a somewhat abridged form of "got away with it"?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:42 AM

Virtually the same tune, Nick. Obviously attached itself to two entirely different songs - or been borrowed somewhere back in the 19th century.

Michael, I'd have thought that "the one that got away" refers to the fact (or at least Harker's assertion of the fact) that the editorial practices of collectors from previous ages, (e.g. Percy, Scott, Baring-Gould, Sharp, etc.) had already been subjected to scrutiny and found wanting. Lloyd's reputation - in Harker's day, at least - remained intact.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:29 AM

I am somewhat exercised by the thread title, Nick, which you appear to cite as from a formulation by Dave Harker: "got away" from what, precisely -- or, if in some way rhetorical or metaphorical, "got away" in what sense?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:23 AM

Take look at Roud 3334 same tune I think. What's your take Brian?

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 05:11 AM

"The tune for the weaver and the Factory maid seems to be taken from Elizabeth Mogg Doddington Somerset from her fragment The Irish Boy and attributed to William Oliver of Widnes who appears to have sung only one other song if he existed at all."

As you now know, Nick, we did discuss this one - and others - a year or two back. Like you I'd be interested to know more about 'William Oliver', but Roy Palmer's article 'The Weaver in Love' (FMJ, 1977) did turn up Lloyd's source for the tune, which was in the Kidson MS attached to a song called 'T'Owd Weaver' (which tells a similar kind of story). Even on the basis of what he communicated to Palmer as Oliver's original text, though, it's clear that Lloyd had made some significant changes before relaunching the song. The fact that the factory maid was wealthy and thus unattainable seems to have got muddied somewhere!

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 04:52 AM

I what you mean. I change words all the time, and the current issue of Living tradition has a piece in about me in which I extol the virtues of just that, but swiping a tune inventing a singer and publishing it in the Journals for study is something different, even if you believe the end justifies the means.
I'm just sad about Bert, now I've finally caught up with every one else. At least I got there on my own, is ignorance bliss?

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 04:32 AM

Most CDs of trad songs by contemporary singers have sleeve notes that tell how they conflate and tweak songs to suit their interpretation. They don't usually give sources or say what they made up themselves. At the latest Bradfiled Trad weekend vic Smith played a long recording of Gordon Hall where Gordon explained the same process which he used.

What annoys me is how Bert and McColl 'alledgedly' invented people to authenticate their words and songs. Their motives would be interesting to understand, hoax, academic respectability, authority, pathology???

I'm sure it goes on all the time to afford authority to the academic.like all foundation myths.
To ordinary singing people you just tweak the words or make mistakes. it's only when we get into academia and reputations that it seems to matter very much.

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM

thanks! Not like me to be years behind everybody else (No change there then}
Nick

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Jul 14 - 01:00 AM

See the thread Bertsongs

Subject: RE: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:35 PM

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=110171

Malcolm Douglas posted that a number of years back.

Subject: AL Lloyd, is he the one that got away
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 28 Jul 14 - 08:13 PM

OK if I am wrong I deserve a serious verbal kicking, I REALLY want to be wrong, because I met Bert and respected him. but the more research I do the more worried I am about some of Berts industrial songs,

I know he wrote the odd verse, to the and the Coal owner and the pitmans wife but I have found the following

With my pit boots on appears to be a word for word take from William Stokes of Chew Magna Somerset 'With my kettle Smock on' with pit boots substituted and a different tune

The tune for the weaver and the Factory maid seems to be taken from Elizabeth Mogg Doddington Somerset from her fragment The Irish Boy and attributed to William Oliver of Widnes who appears to have sung only one other song if he existed at all.

Underneath her apron appears to be a hybrid version. So it goes on...

I have no real axe to grind and no particular interest in industrial Folksong I just keep coming accross tunes and words that sort of appear to be in the wrong place, if that makes any sense. Warning bells keep going off and a nasty voice keeps whispering , We've been taken for a ride here!! Please tear me to shreds I want to be wrong, or am I going to have to agree with Dave Harker that AL LLoyd WAS the one that got away