BS: Anyone defend US gun law?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 11:55 AM

I don't own a musket but I do own a. 338 lapua

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 11:58 AM

I wish you were my uncle olddude...

I'm a bit of an anomaly - a rather militant left wing Brit,
who openly admits he'd love to experience firing off all the weapons he sees in movies and on the Discovery channel.

But obviously under safe controlled conditions of course.


Aparently a recent US movie production crew 'shooting' in England
were surprised to discover they were not allowed to film with the guns they wanted to use on screen
because they were banned outright here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:15 PM

Hey punkrocker come over I will take you to the range. I can let you try a fully automatic. 30 cal

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:27 PM

Well... Gibb did protest a bit....ummm... intensely, but boiled down, he simply made some of the points I have made in the past about America bashing- especially when threads are started with the sole purpose of pointing a finger at some aspect of the US that we (most of us) already are quite aware of.

We KNOW guns are a problem here. We KNOW there are embedded cultural, legal, constitutional and practical barriers to sensible changes which would benefit us all. We also know that sarcastic, superior and basically useless explication of our flaws, with no attempt at friendly, helpful suggestions, are not going to cheer us up or inspire us.

The problems ARE deeply embedded in a Catch-22 situation of interpretations of the 2nd Amendment coupled with the complex requirements to change that amendment and the full force of hundreds of millions of $$$$$ groups like the NRA are willing to spend to lie, distort, and frankly, BUY a continuation of the status quo!

I... and many others.. do everything we can to effect rational changes. But all those forces are entrenched in interlocked ways to defy rationality, we get weary..... and then someone else starts a Mudcat thread pointing to something we not only know, but have just been writing our congressman about or voting to get rid of him for supporting the idiocy of most gun laws.

I am reminded of an old sign I saw:

"If things don't improve soon, I may have to ask you to stop helping me!"

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:38 PM

You are correct bill.. So many times I explained the gun laws and how many we already have only to give easy access to criminals via gun show. Each new ineffective law that us law abiding citizens follow. I can hear the criminals say.. Hell yes pass more of them. You see they want to be the only ones.
Me I am going to the range today. I promised spaw I would try out for top shot his favorite tv show. Rap should also. We use to talk for hours about that show. I don't think they can beat me witha hhandgun but I will get spanked with the automatics and rifles. Need practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:41 PM

And if Richard just wants shit slinging threads. Then sling away. I am your Huckleberry

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:46 PM

I do a lot of UK bashing in some ways. Credit where it is due I suppose.

It isn't the situation wherever, it's defending the indefensible wherever it happens to be. Thats what I am seeing here. Getting touchy about your laws is one thing, putting nationalistic pride before morality is quite another.

Gibb Sahib speaks as if nobody other than Americans know America. Putting aside the cringing "hood" reference, which was at least funny, the international business machine has sold The USA to the point where its values are exported.

Perhaps thats why it comes under such scrutiny.




Personally, I like the bit about making kids put their right hand on their breast and chant some absurd notion about "land of the free." Up till fairly recently, I lived both sides of the ubiquitous pond on and off, and to be honest, I decided my kids stood a better chance being raised over here for just about every reason.

But don't let that stop big business interest keeping your kids unsafe and your unhinged weirdos armed to the teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 12:56 PM

Which reminds me I really do need to practice with a musket. They used them on top shot one challenge. Black power rifle and smooth bore brown bess
Haven't tried one in awhile

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:01 PM

You'd have to be in fine fettle to play with me. I'd make your eyes water....





By the way, despite everything, Bridge was being provocative starting this thread and I am as guilty as the rest in perpetuating it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:06 PM

Facts Worth Defending:


Guns are fun
from the startling adrenaline high
when they bang
to the magical distance they can
make a hole.

Guns are fun
when their power can give you
the power of
life or death or crippling injury
at your touch.

Guns are fun
to target practice or compete
with great skill
or supply your family with food.

More kids die
from their bullet wounds
than Cancer
In the good old USA.

That's a fact Jack.

dh

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:08 PM

this right to bear arms - how far does it extend? Are you allowed to have bombs, nuclear devices, poison gas....?

It reminds me of Dirty Harry. What DOES have happen before you take this situation seriously?

I know all countries have inherent problems. We have a class system that lies at the root of all our problems. Everything from the economy, the law, the education system is there to bolster and preserve the fortunes of a fortunate and very short sighted few. nothing short of a guillotine seems to be the answer.

Still its a quiet sort of thing. With your set of problems, you'd think the sound of guns going off would be a sort of wake up call!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:22 PM

Do behave Al. You give them decent tea and instead of brewing it with boiling water, they drop it in the harbour.

How can you expect them to behave with guns?






(If I stop posting, remember me over a pint...   I have just finished sound checking in a marquee and its pissing it down. I have had to isolate the earth for the active speakers and my guitar DI because of a hum. When I get on stage later, it'll be far more scary than guns, trust me....)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:28 PM

Much of the NRA position of defending the status quo is based on the fallacious "slippery slope" argument, exemplified in the "If gun are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" slogan.

The trouble is, they have made that slogan into a self-fulfilling hypothesis. They have promoted gun a scared so many people and allowed almost anyone to buy guns, that if all law abiding citizens gave up their guns, there WOULD be 100,000,000 illegal ones still out there.

Thus, we have a practical matter of how to manage an already awkward situation that the NRA has perpetuated for business reasons. Think about it.... the weapons industry has the problem of how to make money tomorrow! If everyone is convinced they have all the weapons they need, what will you sell them?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:30 PM

btw: We actively sought and found "cures" for many potentially fatal childhood Cancers.

Seeking and finding cures for potentially fatal childhood bullet wounds is something a rational person would not defend against.

2nd amendment fundamentalists have a sick & warped idea of Fair Game, collateral damage and murder in pursuit of their guaranteed freedom hobby.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:40 PM

"2nd amendment fundamentalists have a sick & warped idea of Fair Game, collateral damage and murder in pursuit of their guaranteed freedom hobby. "

- Or they simply choose not to think about the actual families and victims who pay the ultimate price for the gun hobbies and lobbies so dear to their 2nd amendment heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:43 PM

What drives us nuts over here (I'm sure I'm safe speaking for others) is the constant, vociferous defence of the indefensible that gets thrown out by US-ians every time there's a gun-related 'incident' over there (and there are lots).

We know, from our own experience, it's perfectly feasible to live safe and happy lives, free of fear and paranoia, without firearms - we all do it all the time. Yet every time there's an incident in the US out come the all-teeth-and-trousers meat-heads with their brains in their balls, rattling on about 'the bad guys' and 'mad-dog killers', talking like John Wayne, and telling us we don't know what we're talking about.

Compare the numbers of gun-deaths in our respective countries - it's QED.

We know that it's not simple, that there's a huge cultural implant to be overcome in the minds of many Americans. But hand-wringing and moaning that it's impossible isn't what the world expects from the US - you used to be the 'Can Do' nation, what's gone wrong with you?

There are a lot of people outside the US (I'm one) who love your country and its people. But it's becoming increasingly difficult to love and respect a nation of people who think it's their right, and perfectly OK, for every citizen to possess firearms, the only purpose of which is to provide the means to kill fellow citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 01:55 PM

I'll be sorry for getting mixed up in this, but here goes....

Which preacher of light from the land of Shakespeare will tell us wayward former Colonials exactly what practical steps we should take to eliminate gun violence in the USA?

Don't buy guns? There are so many out there that many of us feel the need for self-defense. Just in case.

Repeal the Second Amendment? As I've said elsewhere, this will not happen in our lifetime - or our children's - or ever. And if it did, how would local, state, and/or federal governments collect the now outlawed weapons without shooting it out with many of the tens of millions of owners? The situation would be a dream come true for every heavily armed, radical-right and anarchist hate group in the country. And then what?

Outlaw the civilian firearms industry? See above.

Look at it another way. With 300,000,000 Americans and allegedly a similar number of firearms in private (including criminal) hands, why is the annual gun-death rate so incredibly *low*? Even if it is sky-high compared to, say, our Canadian friends, it is still low. The average American is extraordinarily unlikely ever to be shot at by anybody.

The last time I checked, life expectancies in the US and UK were within about a year of each other. Does anyone believe that the UK has the edge because there's a constant hail of bullets over here?

I've never known anyone who had a gun pulled on him under any circumstances (and believe me, they would talk about it!), and I know, through the news only, of just one person who was shot within a mile of me - and that was in a big American city. (It happened in 1970.)

Even in the most violent inner cities, the lead is not constantly flying. Other kinds of crimes and general misery are the main problems, as they are in every slum everywhere.

Americans are hardly the kill-crazy nuts some like to think we are. So let's be a little less pitying, patronizing, snide, and self-righteous in our criticisms. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:09 PM

No, don't repeal the second amendment. Just read the fucker in the first place.

It's the language of the day for the government to expect people to defend it, or be drafted in modern language.

We have a "healthy" firearms industry here, but in the same way we produce plutonium but don't sell it on street markets, we don't sell guns to the public either.

No, sorry Lighter. On this, as with capital punishment and food, nothing to stop us looking down on you and smiling condescendingly.

Keep banging the rocks together eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:27 PM

Musket.. Come over I will change your mind we can go to the range and ppoke holes in targets. And no kidding my sheriff buddy has a brown bess and you can shoot that.. It is fun.. The swat team lets me rip off clips of fully automatic weapons on the range. I can have them let you try. Guns are no different from anything else can be used or abused

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:37 PM

Ebbie: I've been Googling statistics about causes of death, injuries, and hospitalization in Alaska and you live in a wild and dangerous place!;-)

In broad terms, you are several hundred more times likely to be killed at work there than in say, DC or NYC, and the "Intentional Death Rate" is really shocking. However, the homicide rate is actually the same as that for that gun-law laden "Bleeding Heart Liberal" state New York(4.4 per 100k of population)(and I say "Bleeding Heart Liberal" in quotes because I am one). The numbers are shockingly high because of the high rate of suicides, and many to most of those are gun deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:37 PM

Everyone likes to say how outdated the 2nd admendment is about maintaining a civilian military. Every wonder why american soldier's are so skilled. Yes their training. But most are already skilled marksmen long before joining. The document still applies. The us army sent investigators into Iraq because so many bad guys were shot in the head
They feared execution but the end result was they could shoot and damn well. A needed skill in war

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:42 PM

Want an example.
Look up carlos havcock who was an old country boy. You can see how one man could damage the enemy by skill. His rife was a deer gun

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:45 PM

if you stick to air rifles, you can shoot in your own back garden. i do. no need for a rifle club. and you'd be up shit street robbing a bank with one. or attempting to massacre people.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 02:53 PM

Not true al my air rifle fires a. 155 pellet @1080 fps. A. 45 handgun is 900 fps
The pellet gun takes a person out just as quick and has no sound to speak of. They are not toys I use to hunt squirrel with one

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 03:09 PM

Sorry spelling is carlos hathcock

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 03:35 PM

hathcock will travel ????

sorry, too terrible a pun to just ignore....

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:10 PM

At Walmart I can buy all sorts of BB guns and air rifles that shoots a pellet up to 1,800 - 2,100 feet per second. No license or waiting period required.

However you won't find them at a Walmart in Maryland or other Commie socialist liberal pinko gay tree hugging progressive states. You will find them in real American stand your ground states where murder is legal as long as you were at some point scared of your victim. Well, ya also gotta be white which goes without sayin.

They don't say how many pumps per shot it requires to fire one pellet at 2,100 FPS.

Someday there will be a truck tire attachment that will make your air rifle fully automatic. Hoowee , that wood dang sure liven up the 'ol double D truck stop/shootin range on a hot Sat. nite.

Ya gotta admit it . Guns are fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:54 PM

Sadly they don't sell rocket propelled grenades cause if legal I would have them also

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 04:57 PM

OldDude, I was military, infantry, I taught firearms handling, I shot at competition level. Yes if you must have firearms around it is essential you are not only thoroughly practiced in using them, but also be proficient in it - and the two are not the same thing, some people are practiced in missing every barn door in sight, making you a danger to the general public and utterly safe from the point of view of your target. The question is whether it is necessary to have firearms around. The UK shows it is not, with a very few exceptions. Me, I'd not shot for over 20 years when a retired colonel literally threw a rifle I'd trained on at me, without warning: I caught it instinctively at it's centre of balance and cleared it in a single movement, without thinking. That's the level of training I had, my body remembered.

I'm not clear from your postings what your training was. You say the SEALs know you - which is not the same thing as having been a SEAL. You say you and your family and the military - which again suggests you were not. I think you've made up your safety protocols, which means you're potentially a danger. I'd love to be wrong, but who trained you and how?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:07 PM

Somebody should get out a ruler so the rest of us don't have to listen to this shit. I'm sure Olddude knows what he's talking about. I think Rahere feels like he has to keep proving himself. You might know how to shoot, but you never quite figured out when to shut up, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:20 PM

Lol jeri like I said honey if they want shit threads so be it. I will answer any gun questions
Ya know swat uses all the new fangled automatic weapons but nothing beats the Thompson. . 45 cal high rate of fire easy to clean and will work even if it was in the mud
I would want one if I had to do house to house search and destroy. Tends to creep up on full auto if you don't lean into it

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:22 PM

Carlos Hathcock was not a typical "old country boy". He was unusual even among trained snipers in his patience, skill and stubborn perseverance.

Owning and handling firearms does not always result in "already skilled marksmen"

-----------------

Backwoodsman: you say "We know that it's not simple, that there's a huge cultural implant to be overcome ..." and then follow it with "what's wrong with you>?"

WHAT you? Nothing is wrong with many of us! What would you have us do? A "can do nation" is a slogan, not a simplistic answer to the very things you admit are "not that simple".
*WE*& are not "a nation of people who think it's their right, and perfectly OK, for every citizen to possess firearms,..."...*some* are that way, and they have bought congressmen on their side! What part of the Catch-22 situation of 2nd Amendment, legal process & "states rights" coupled with Gerrymandering and fear mongering do you not understand?

We see constantly various media reporting, explaining and educating on the issue... but those who want to keep all those guns do not WATCH those media... and they have a vested interest in NOT seeing a sane view of the situation.

I sometimes think that a 'liberal' buying an AK-47 and shooting up NRA headquarters might get the message across, but they would just claim it proved their point..

somehow, images of Sisyphus & King Canute come to mind

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:31 PM

Best carry gun i think is the glock 23 but not fo. AA novice. I carry one. 40cal no external safety just trigger so it's fast but many have put a new dent in their ass by not avoiding the trigger when holstering. I know rap will say the 1911. 45 but it's big and heavy. The. 40 cal or 10 mm round what it really is I think superior to the. 45

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:41 PM

I told a cop 10 years ago don't shoot reloads in your glock unless you really know how to make them. Blew his gun up. The 1911 will feed anything but not the glock on reloads. I do my own but check every round closely

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 05:56 PM

Hey Bill, lots of problems solved get rid of the gun show and most street guns will dry up

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:06 PM

Ever hear of the civilian marksmanship program. That is supported by the us government.
Why cause they want more skills in shooting 2nd admendment for skilled soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:07 PM

Sorry,olddude, I but with all due respect, am a bit doubtful about your "shot in the head" story. It's a bit vague. It is close to impossible to go back and make an inquiry into manner and cause of enemy casualties. It's hard enough to get accurate information on our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:27 PM

Stim it is true.. It was stated by a general when he was talking about the military on tv. The first Gulf War there was a concern
That the kill rate from head shots was so high
How do they know. Every engagement there are drones and helmet cams and the outside human rights folks filed a complaint that was investigated

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: pdq
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:37 PM

Any Grateful Dead fans out there?

Yes, Jerry Garcia was a ...true libertarian

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 06:58 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Marksmanship_Program

No...I never heard of it till now. Seems like a fair idea until you read that they sell surplus military rifles to 'approved' club members.

I could not find any data on how many clubs there are or how many go on to military service... but I did find a disclaimer about how stories of its demise were not true. Maybe it's not a well-attended setup.

No matter what the truth is about claims of military accuracy and the virtue of particular weapons, I find those to be only superficially relevant to whether & how civilians should be allowed to buy and own various weapons.

I totally agree that gun show laws should be revised and strengthened, but I have no faith that it would solve much for very long. I suspect it would just lead to more smuggling and private trading. It would at least make it more trouble to make certain sales and 'possibly' strengthen penalties.

If all new guns were stopped tomorrow, gun crime would continue and the many millions of illegal guns would circulate for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 07:09 PM

Last year, there was this article about the CMP. I suppose that's what the disclaimer was about.
I'd have to research what has happened with that supposed plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 08:20 PM

copied from Facebook for olddude: *grin*


I took that Zimbio "Which Very Rare Disorder are you?" quiz and got

Gun Turretts Syndrome- The compulsive shouting out of the names/ calibers/firing rates of various firearms during normal conversation.
GTS patients have difficulties at airport security, Sunday church services and banks; and are frequently mistaken for a member of a militant survivalist clan.

" Wanda, don't HOWITZER know how you feel about dating coworkers THOMPSONSUBMACHINEGUN but I've got COLT45 a couple courtside LUGAR Laker's ticket for Saturday and 12POUNDER I was wondering if you AK-47 were busy."

GTS patients are advised against jobs as a hostage negotiator or Yoga Instructor

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Janie
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 08:57 PM

Quoting from one of the many articles in the link I posted earlier - a pretty exhaustive coverage of issues, positions and opinions related to gun control/rights in America, published by News21.

"It's the beauty and the danger of America's Constitution," said Adam Winkler, a law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, and a Second Amendment expert. "Its great generalities are so vague that anyone can interpret them in light of their own experience and their own interests. And indeed, the Second Amendment is one of the most confusing textual provisions of the Constitution."

Says a lot about how formed USA people's positions already are, that, as best I can tell, no one here has taken even a peek at it. Can't say as I blame you. It is extensive and the lay-out is a bit confusing. I haven't read or watched the entire yet, and have spend several hours over several evenings so far going through it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 09:46 PM

Rahere you don't know the first fucking thing about me do you. I put my experience and training against yours anytime by a factor of 10 . But why are you so worried about america do you live here no but you have fun with total shit threads started by an Asshole. I served my country in ways you could not imagine. And no I won't explain. I don't answer to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 09:52 PM

And for the past 8 years Richard threads have costed mudcat in the loss of some major talent that left. So if that is all you want in threads then lets play I am here

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 10:01 PM

Just watched "The Washington Snipers" (2013)
"Blue Caprice" (original title)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2027064/

A low budget indie movie - Not a great film.
Underwhelming, patchy narative, requires patience to watch to the end.

But interesting and relevant to this thread.

No idea how well researched or accurate this movie is.

It depicted downtrodden ex military guys.
One was shown to keep his arsenal of guns in a chicken wire cage in his garage,
secured only with an unlocked padlock.

These were the weapons taken and used by the snipers.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 10:11 PM

Punk those guys were terrorists for sure. That is why good guys need to be vigilant.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 10:16 PM

Jeri.. Apologies for out burst.. Seems all mudcat wants is bullshit threads anymore so people who been here a long time like me say bring it on you get what you serve
Now we need some religion threads and political ones how about it Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 10:19 PM

Punk I think the Washington killer got his weapons at a gun show if I remember properly. That's a law we need to get rid of

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 25 Aug 14 - 10:50 PM

A hamilton 992b Pocket watch is much easier t . Carrying than my glock