BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:45 PM

Johnny. I don't see bigoted shit on the same level as human beings. Speaking about it is far better than addressing it direct. You don't have to shower afterwards.

If you read his disgusting diatribe, which thankfully comes under the criminal act of propogating hatred, you might just think twice about defending him. Lying about a section of the community in order to villify them is not free speech.

Mind you, you have to laugh.. "when we become an independent nation.." A few posts up it rattles on about resisting the outcome. His hatred seems to extend to the Scottish people?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 01:44 PM

I have never met John personally, but I do know from experience that he is one of the most decent and helpful people that I have ever encountered.
We disagree amicably on a fair few subjects, and he is a truly liberal person in the very best sense of the word.....he also has a highly developed sense of humour, and a huge circle of friends in the folk world.....I value his kindness and depth.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:06 PM

Teribus....It is beneath your usual level of debate to brand new SNP members as Certifiable Eejits(please get your spelling right, if nothing else) :0)
The referendum debate has promoted political thought amongst sections of the public who had previously been uninterested.
The idea of National pride and personal responsibility allied to a sensible attitude towards our place in the world as a small trading nation, must surely be a good thing, no matter what ones political views may be?

Could you please explain your remarks concerning the loss of 80% of our trade if we become independent....that seems rather "ludicrous" to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:27 PM

akenaton,

Whilst I think that you are right to question Tebibus's remark concerning the 'loss of 80% of our trade' you could perhaps justify some of the figures you quote such as:

Homosexual "marriage" is of importance to 0.04 of the population

and

at least 5% voted primarily on sectarian lines, another 5% on promises of Devo- Max...young folks voted 75% YES

Could you please give your sources for these figures? Or did you just make them up?

Thanks,

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:28 PM

Tebibus = Teribus. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:00 PM

Sorry Ed, but I've promised SRS that I will stop responding to trolls.

I'm sure there are a few like minds who will accommodate you.

The woods are full of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:09 PM

I'm sorry??? But in what sense is politely asking you to justify some figures that you quote trolling?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:55 PM

Good try, Ed, a few posters frequently mis-use the term "troll" as an "easy out", often when they are "found out" and asked to be personably responsible for their post content- by (at a minimum) providing sources for figures they loosely throw about, (or, quite often made up, or "cherry picked"). Is it not odd that these folks have the time to respond by calling another poster a name (by doing what they chastise others for)   under a disguise of not responding to another posters question:


"A brick could be used to raise your status as an upstanding citizen. Don't get too excited, though. It'll only raise you up about three inches.
" 
― Jarod Kintz, Brick


)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:48 AM

I suppose you see everybody as trolls when you reckon equality is only of interest to 0.04% of the population. Especially when you claim The SNP don't actually support their own liberal agenda.

Never mind. Scotland has been offered the chance to look idiots and declined the offer. Move on. The younger generations can look forward to more certainty and, interestingly, more impetus to hold the Scottish Parliament to account for their powers, instead of blaming Westminster for their own failings.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: selby
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:56 AM

The Scotland issue is very much like the fairy tale of the kings new cloths there are those that can see the truth and benefits then there are those who listen to the SNP who have had power but blamed every body else for their failings.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 04:57 AM

80% of Scotland's trade at present is with the countries that make up the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Had Scotland voted YES it would have found itself an independent country on the 24th March 2016 according to Jowly's timetable.

That independent Scotland would have found itself:
1: Using someone else's currency over which it had no control
2: Financially hobbled as its borrowing costs would have been through the roof and with absolutely no handle on interest rates
3: A non-EU member state.

In the time between the result of the YES vote being announced and independence all of Scotland's "customers" in England, Northern Ireland and in Wales would have to make the purely business decision of paying more (the EU levies automatic penalties on member states buying stuff from non-EU countries) or finding alternative suppliers. Companies based in Scotland would be faced with making purely business decisions regarding reduction of prices to customers (Which would of course involve cutting their own costs, like wages), finding alternative customers for their products, or relocating to England, Wales or Northern Ireland. The latter by the way would be found to be the optimum for the business in question, and the easiest to implement.

Akenaton the fundamentalist can of worms has been open since 1971 and you would have seen and appreciated that had you been paying attention - nothing whatsoever to do with Iraq, Libya or Egypt.

Your 60,000 certifiable eejits (Nothing wrong with the spelling of either word there Ake - eejit and eedjit are accepted spellings according to the "Urban Dictionary") Ake have joined in the hope that they can make this issue into an "Neverendum" to be adopted at the next SNP Conference. If they succeed in doing that against the plainly demonstrated wishes of the Scottish people then if adopted by the SNP then at the 2016 Scottish Parliamentary Elections the prospect of independence becoming a "neverendum" will be used as a club to beat the SNP with. The last two years have shown the SNP to be exactly what they are - small minded, petty, spiteful nationalists who have only their own interests at heart. "Nationalism" does not have a single redeeming feature it could call its own and it should never, ever be confused or conflated with "patriotism".

Some of the many positive things that have come out of the NO result:
1: We are still the UK
2: Increased devolutionary powers will be extended to each member state making up the UK - (Not just Scotland Ake)
3: The normally silent NO voters have been roused and the indelible lesson they were taught in the referendum campaign was that apathy and non-participation with regard to politics in Scotland is now no longer an option - they universally oppose the SNP and what the SNP seeks to do
4: All those rushing to the YeSNP banner who had to register to vote in Scotland are all now being checked against non-payment of Poll Tax - the Revenue look like making inroads into recovering at least some of the £300 million that wasn't paid - priceless, absolutely priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 09:57 AM

An interesting hypothesis Mr T, but I don't think you can state with any degree of certainty, that "Scotland would lose 80% if its trade if becoming independent"
I have little knowledge of big business methods, but I know that made in Scotland is a sought after brand and we produce many things that the world wants any temporary obstacles would be overcome by everyone working in their own interests.......just like the currency issue, but the fear tactic worked for the moment.

You are a bit behind the times Teribus, there are now almost 75000 SNP "eejits" who want to put their heart and soul into obtaining self determination for Scotland. This equates to the whole population of a medium sized town!......and still rising, how many people are rushing to join the Westminster parties?......With the exception of Mr Farage's band of rebels, he has certainly shown up Westmister toadies for what they are.

The "vow" of more powers, was made to only the people of Scotland IF they voted NO in the referendum, no ifs, no buts, and they better come up with the goods before the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 10:03 AM

Oh yes, the Poll Tax, that would certainly be the end for Westminster if they ever attempted to reopen THAT can of worms.. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:35 AM

Not only "an interesting hypothesis" Akenaton but a fairly accurate one particularly if everyone looked after "their own interests".

So 75,000 village idiots now is it? It may very well equate to the population of a medium sized town but the last time I looked the will of the majority of the electorate of Scotland decides the outcome - not the number of card carrying members of any specific political party - this is the UK Akenaton not the U.S.S.R, or Orwell's Animal Farm

"The "vow" of more powers, was made to only the people of Scotland IF they voted NO in the referendum".

Well here is the actual wording of that VOW (Taken from Scotland's National Comic "The Daily Record" of the 16th September 2014) - I have highlighted the bits that refer to the the whole of the UK which means all four nations that make it up:

"The VOW

The people of Scotland want to know that all three main parties will deliver change for Scotland.

WE ARE AGREED THAT:

The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers for the Parliament will be delivered by the process and to the timetable agreed and announced by our three parties, starting on the 19th September.

And it is our hope that the people of Scotland will be engaged directly as each party works to improve the way we are governed in the UK in the years ahead.

We agree that the UK exists to ensure opportunity and security for all by sharing our resources equitably across all four nations to secure the defence, prosperity and welfare of every citizen.

And because of the continuation of the Barnett allocation for resources, and the powers of the Scottish Parliament to raise revenue, we can state categorically that the final say on how much is spent on the NHS will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament.

We believe that the arguments that so powerfully make the case for staying together in the UK should underpin our future as a country. We will honour those principles and values not only before the referendum but after.

People want to see change. A No vote will deliver faster, safer and better change than separation.

So Akenaton not just Scotland - Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland all have their own Parliaments or Assemblies only England does not, that mismatch has got to be addressed and if Westminster Members of Parliament are excluded from voting on solely national issues within those devolved Parliaments and Assemblies then in all conscience Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Members of the Westminster Parliament should not be allowed to vote on issues that solely affect England and its population.

But not much point in granting additional powers if successive Scottish Governments elected to power in Scotland are not going to use them for fear of becoming unelectable at the next election. The successive Scottish Governments since 1999, all "socialist" in nature, have not once used their powers to raise revenue in Scotland in fifteen years to address any of the problems they moan about.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:49 AM

Educating 🐖 again I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 02:28 PM

75,000 of the already converted are now SNP members?
Only 2,001,926 to convert for an overall consensus.
"Come back Torquemada" is the new SNP Battle cry.
I hear he is looking for an assistamt I wonder which "thistle heid whapper" that will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:04 AM

"Oh yes, the Poll Tax, that would certainly be the end for Westminster if they ever attempted to reopen THAT can of worms."

Great pity that it is not reintroduced it is after all a much fairer system, taking into account that the money raised pays for local services and in Scotland water.

Saw this somewhere else and it made the point beautifully:

Two houses in the same Council Tax Band.
One is the home of a widowed OAP, the other is a the family home of a grown family with five wage earners living in it.

Under Council Tax rules both houses pay the same amount. But which of those homes puts the greatest strain on the services provided by the Council? The family home produces five times the amount of rubbish for the council to clear and uses at least five times the water that the widow's house does. Now under Poll Tax the bill would be split six ways instead of two and it would mean that those who actually utilised the services actually pay for them - now I would say that that was fair wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

The poll tax or community charge was a good idea in principle but unworkable. It's all very well for everyone to make a contibution but not everyone can actually afford that. Collection is also a big issue especially if someone doesn't have a fixed address or income. Also, does a person with NF Abode or single person living with thei parent really fully use the same services?

The present council tax in Scotland is not a bad compromise whereby single occupiers are entitled to a discount but, personally, I'd prefer some form of local income tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:58 AM

Side issue..

Poll tax or the present form of council tax, the hilarious events of the last few weeks remain..

Those who had gone under the radar to avoid being chased for the money they owe decided to go back on the electoral register to vote. The councils then carried out their statutory duties when it comes to tax avoidance

Salmond says the tax cheats shouldn't have to pay because they revealed themselves as patriots.... (Any MSP who votes for such a measure, any councillor for that matter could find themselves surcharged if they try writing off debt of bodies not under their direct control. See The Clay Cross "martrys" for details.

On this occasion, a sarcastic quip from yours truly would be superflous to the satire reality has thrown us.

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 05:16 AM

Ehmmm Johnny J, your local income tax would be simpler and easier to collect than Poll Tax how exactly?

I dare say that there would be very convincing arguments put forward by those who felt that they couldn't afford to pay, or finding those who should be paying but who have "no-fixed-abode" or fixed income. But there again you could deduct it at source couldn't you - exactly the same as you could have done for Poll Tax collection.

Either way Poll Tax, as was, and a local income tax {And like you I would prefer some form of local income tax} are far fairer ways of meeting the costs of local council provided services than the current Council Tax. "Households" and property do not use council provided services - the people that live and work in them do, so it is the people that live in them should pay as individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 05:41 AM

"your local income tax would be simpler and easier to collect than Poll Tax how exactly"

Most of us are still PAYE, I think.
I get your point though and it may be that it would be the higher earners and "rich" who would then try to avoid payment rather than the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:01 AM

Even Westminster politicians would not be stupid enough to try to enforce Poll Tax payments.
Does no one remember the demonstrations which followed its introduction.......what a gift to Independence THAT would be!

Back to reality, seems the promises of huge additional powers for the Scottish government are being quietly kicked into the long grass.

Or blended into a "neverland" of regional devolution, which of course will also be "consulted on" until we are all under the sod.

The fearties and well off pensioners who scuppered the bid for Scottish self determination will soon be overtaken by an army of newly motivated young people, many of whom will wish to be involved in politics at party level.
Westminster's rule has had its day, Independence will come.
The seed has been planted, the young folk have found something which inspires them, makes then feel as if they have a purpose....they will not get back in their cages and be fed their benefits through the bars.    The human spirit never ceases to amaze me!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:15 AM

Perhaps they can start by paying the arrears they owe the country they love...

😹😹😹

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: selby
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 06:20 AM

Westminster politicians SHOULD chase down the poll tax cheats it is the law of the land or does SNP Scotland in its little cosy world of Brigadoon decide what is right for them and bugger everyone else.
I thought that the referendum was a good idea and fair for all. I love Scotland and its people but there comes a point when even your friends tell you to shut up and grow up as you are doing more damage to yourself than you think.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 07:45 AM

Very well said Musket ........ liked that a lot!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 08:00 AM

"The fearties and well off pensioners"

I would regard myself as neither and, whatever the exact figures, many people of all ages also voted "No". The over 65s wouldn't have carried the day on their own.

It's also an erroneous assumption that the political views of an individual will always remain constant throughout his or her lifetime. If this was the case, then the Tories would have long ceased to exist but many former left leaning young people become conservative with a small "c" as they get older, buy property, move up the ladder of life and so on. I'm not suggesting that this is right or necessarily a good thing but it appears to be what happens.

Dick Gaughan sadly summed it up in this song.

http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/whathappened.html

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 08:06 AM

Oops

http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/songs/texts/whathappened.html

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 03:52 AM

John, I didn't mean to imply that the votes of young people are "worth more" than those of folks who are nearing the end of their lives, but the motivations are quite different. Like it or not the youth are the future of Scotland and how we are to be governed will affect them for a very long time.

Also, the Scottish demographic is rather weird to say the least, containing a large number of people over working age, as well as a huge "English residing in Scotland" demographic.....the ratio of 1 in ten is calculated. Most of these "immigrants",do not contribute to the Scottish economy, but avail themselves of the benefits(free care for the elderly, council tax freeze, free prescriptions, etc)fought so hard for by the SNP government.
There are many in this area of Argyll and in the referendum most seemed to be in the NO camp.

In my lifetime I have seen people change, as you mention, but not usually in their political opinions.....people do become more conservative socially, and quite rightly, the speed of social change propelled by the media has no basis in common sense and is often a hindrance to the creation of a sensible, sustainable, and a REAL egalitarian society.
I have been a socialist since I was 17 and still retain my political views, but years of life experience have proved to me, that social conservatism is in our interests as a society. Social change should be affected slowly....in an evolutionary fashion, or the effects could be terminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 03:58 AM

"Effected"

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 04:57 AM

Or put in more succinct words.

The people of Scotland rejected independence.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 06:05 AM

So 1 in 10 of Scottish residents are English 'immigrants' of pensionable age?

Really? Once again, akenaton, I ask you to justify your figure.

Oh damn, I forgot that questioning the veracity of your assertions is considered trolling...

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 06:26 AM

It's not his fault. He genuinely thinks he is a typical Scot when even SNP when debating legislation point to people of his views as, and I quote from the deputy first minister "a stain on society."

If he bothers he will give you some American statistics anyway, judging by his previous terminological inexactitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 07:21 AM

:0).....The people who are "a stain on society", are those who terrorised George Square, wrapped in the Union flag and the Red Hand of Ulster.
The "Butchers apron" and the "Bloody Hand"......Dysfunctional members of our happy "family"?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 07:31 AM

STATS

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:05 AM

Thank you for your stats, akenaton.

Whilst it's not going to be precise (your figures coming from 2005 and mine from the 2011 Census), it doesn't take a mathematical genius to note that 61,582 English born people over 65 in populatin of 5,295,403 isn't exactly 10% is it?

In case you can't do the maths, it's a little over 1%. Indeed, the entire English born population (including those too young to vote) of 408,948 amounts to less than 8%.

If you're going to quote statistics in support of your argument, at least get them remotely correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:13 AM

Yes, she was referring to bigots now you mention it.. That's two examples we have.

😹

Interesting stats. Don't support your theory, but fair play, they do look like stats.

Yet another way of saying the people of Scotland rejected independence. I like democracy because faith in people to use their intelligence is so important.

If it helps, I am not too happy to call you a fellow British subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 09:20 AM

Stats and exact figures aside, these English born voters are now living in Scotland, for whatever reason, and are surely entitled to a view on the future of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM

Ed....Don't try to insult me, I'm far too ignorant! :0)

What I said was the demographic of "English residing in Scotland"....between 9 and 10%....they are not ALL retired, or EARLY retired, but very many of them are. Early retirement, sell their house in the South of England, move up here buy a better house at half the price, educate their kids and grandkids for nothing, low council tax, free health care.... While our own young people cant even get a mortgage for a crummy flat, as most of them are on low paid short term working.....but its good for the Westminster employment figures isn't it?


"Stats and exact figures aside, these English born voters are now living in Scotland, for whatever reason, and are surely entitled to a view on the future of the country."

Yes John, but there is no balance, in percentage terms there are far more English living here than Scots living in England and their political input is disproportionate.
On a rough personal poll of my customers and their friends, I would say over 80% voted to retain the Union....not only that, but they are almost all upper middle class....we don't see many English "workies" up here, although there was apparently an influx of EDL supporters in amongst the "family gathering" in George Square?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Oct 14 - 11:48 AM

Much easier transportation (for those not liking things where they are) than it was a few hundred years ago.:)


Direct flights 

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 03:35 AM

Sounds to me that those who see Scotland's potential didn't wish to risk the country's future by reckless nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:07 AM

i don't really recognise much of these comments about the english (or non-scots) living in scotland. i have moved over the border five times(i was born north of carlisle but south of the border) most recently i worked for 6 years at a homeless hostel in aberdeen and have been up many times for football, music and to visit our chldren and the highlands. i havn't come across any retired english or even middle class english though don't dispute there are many. i found in the north west (round ullapool) often english people were prominent in starting up or maintaining businesses with not much apparent resentment. in the organisation i worked for, at training days or union meetings local aberdeen voices were relatively quiet while the english people usually have plenty to say -when they could get the weegies to shut up! my attitude has to been to try to be open and friendly with everyone - no matter where they come from - perhaps because of my own cross-border confusion i really can't be bothered to care where people are from or what class they are. there are some very good people and some not so good but the vast majority of us are all just trying to get by without harming anyone. a major reason why i was (am) so enthusiastic about the Yes campaign was their definition of a scot as simply someone who lives there. it is inclusive and massively positive for everyone who lives in scotland or loves the country but wasn't born there. what a contrast to the increasingly deeply unpleasant and racist way that english politics is going. in scotland there is a tradition and a desire to help people in hard times -in england we blame them. The Yes campaign was more about this issue -and the ridiculous westminster show - than any anti-english or nationalist politics. i'm hoping this momentum keeps going and we can import it over the border - but i hae ma doots!

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:26 AM

But don't confuse dismay at the appallingly awful Westminster perspective and whether or not part of The UK would be better off alone.

We are all guilty of encouraging feckless politicians and we provide the impetus for newspaper barons to influence them. Dividing us just strengthens knee jerk politics. Show me where Holyrood is fundamentally any different to Westminster other than the policies of the party of the moment? No matter how you voted, you were going to get a government that offers more than it delivers.

And every single person that voted had a vote as legitimate as the next. Every single person went into the voting booth on the basis of accepting the outcome. That's the fundamental basis of bothering to vote in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:45 AM

holyrood uses a proportional representation system. this is designed to be non-confrontational in that parties are forced to compromise and co-operate to form a government. the building itself is open to the public and the debates in the chamber are more grown up and well attended than the old boys' club at westminster. the MSPs are less distant and more accountable to their constituents. (and 85% turnout! pretty good)
at present the SNP have an overall majority in Holyrood -and though it won't last, it is more likely to now there has been a No vote. The Yes campaign was a coalition of many groups, a coalition that will probably split up following independence - but that is well-functioning democracy.
Did I read that a labour government (UK) could be elected on 32% of the vote? surely that system is broken and we could do better

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:48 AM

In the referendum we were not voting for a "government", but for the idea of self representation.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 04:59 AM

what can we learn from the "neverendum" ?

Well:
1) if you word the question right - you get a bias in your favour that has nothing to do with the issues. People will tend towards the "Yes" answer. Look at the wording - it was imposed by Alec Salmond.
2) Young people have less grasp on the history, recent or long standing, and are more likely to favour novelty. Look at the age range imposed by ................
3) When Quebec voted they got not independance but a new law (and its language) that made a lot of big corporations decamp to Toronto - redundancy! Mess with the status quo and there are unexpected consequences. Unexpected not because they were not voiced, but because the politicians valued their importance over reality. Think Banking (can we have our money back?) Look at .............
4) History repeats itself. It has to, nobody is listening. Well actually they are but they ain't the ones on a quest of self importance.
5) Would Greece be in the situation it is if polititions had not pursued a policy of giving the public what they wanted? Instead of what was prudent?

Scotland is a valued member of the United Kingdom, culturally and in friendship and we can ignore the value that is the relative share of the total tax income (more than any other region). Beware, if one province were to split - how long before London declares UDI? Eh yup - Yorkshire decided not to devolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 05:31 AM

as i recall the wording for the referendum was agreed between salmond and cameron. and it was cameron that specifically ruled out the devo max option . at least until the last 5 minutes of the campaign when it was cynically inserted to swing it for the nae sayers.

'young people have less grasp on history and are more likely to favour novelty...' this is patronising nonsense. all of us at any age are capable of being disinteresed in politics or just dim (think of the recent popularity of UKIP among older, white, middle class males)

if there is one lesson we should have learned from history it is the dangers of blaming and demonising the less successful and minority groups in our society. young people are generally much more comfortable with this than some of their 'wiser' elders. one lesson the scots have learned is -'you don't trust the tories'

how do we use the recent surge of interest and engagement in politics for all our benefits and to breath new life into the dead and divisive english (OK then, UK) system of government

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 11:31 AM

And those saying here that the vote was for a system rather than a government were the same reckless fools saying a yes vote meant embracing SNP policies, such as promises on trident, NHS, social care, education...

Out of interest, we have a coalition in Westminster, so have had a form of PR anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 12:16 PM

"Out of interest, we have a coalition in Westminster, so have had a form of PR anyway"...:0)   ha ha....Lets have a guessing game, what does "PR" stand for in that context!

I could think of several, but think I'll leave it to Jim Knowledge."

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 12:22 PM

I think it's suffixed by the letters ATS.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 14 - 12:26 PM

Very good guest.....bit too kind though, anything more fittingly vicious?