BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?

Subject: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:29 AM

i was very impressed by the scottish campaign for independence- it was hugely encouraging for democracy and the chance for people to have a positive say in their own lives. what lessons can the rest of the uk (and beyond) learn from this? i don't mean the main parties or any top down notion of imposing anything on anyone - could ordinary people in (eg) the north of england get together in such a way and demand a better, austerity free life? do we have to rely on indistinguishable and corrupt parties squabbling for parliamentary advantage? is UKIP/and more far right wing media and politics all there is? we can do better than this surely? it may be naive to hope for just positive suggestions here - but there are other threads to indulge in name-calling and party politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:48 AM

IN MY OPINION THE MOST REFRESHING ASPECT OF THE CAMPAIGN WAS ALEX SALMOND . A POLITICIAN WHO WAS DOING HIS BEST NOT FOR HIMSELF LIKE MOST POLITICIANS, BUT FOR THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 03:51 AM

I think " party politics" are the real problem, its all short term thinking and there is no longer a socialist voice in British politics.
The referendum showed that there are bigger issues than which gang of pirates are given the few small levers of power.

The system is in control unless the people do things for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 04:07 AM

Pssst Dick read this and then remark on Jowly:

"Mr Salmond remarked that the referendum was a triumph for the democratic process and participation in politics, calling 'on all of Scotland to follow suit in accepting the democratic verdict of the people of Scotland.' The First Minister finished his speech saying: 'We shall go forward as one nation"

He said that on Friday the 19th September, 2014
By Monday the 22nd September, 2014 he was threatening a possible Scottish declaration of UDI if the SNP win the next Scottish Election - so much for respecting the democratic verdict of the people of Scotland eh?

The man is a complete and utter embarrassment to Scotland and the Scottish People

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 04:55 AM

The referendum had to be delivered in order to clear the air. The Scottish Parliament has a habit of blaming Westminster for its own failures and hitherto, such positions had the tacit support of many of those they were letting down.

Now, the people can say yes, but what are you doing with the status we wish you to have?

For the rest of The UK, it starts a debate regarding what could be devolved more regionally, making sense of public spending for the communities involved. Some things are better served nationally for risk pool purposes, some by local government and if it could be efficient, (no promises..) regional assembly for commissioning services.

The Conservative party, for all their small government ideals are fans of centralised control. The small bit refers only to budget, not control. Labour are bigger fans of devolved powers, and Prescott blew his budget trying to set up government of the regions. He left it too late though.

Interestingly, away from idealism and incompetence in delivery, I am very much in tune with the inclusive, liberal, equality focused aims of SNP. They are in some ways the Labour party we don't have. Their clouded vision however hampers their fitness for purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 05:11 AM

Regional devolution was voted out a few years back, and won't come back for another generation. Otherwise we end up in the worst of short-termism, holding European-style referenda ad infinitum until we get the result we want.

What is more relevant from this is that we already have a form of regionalism, in that Scotland and Wales have devolved governments, but England does not. The Machine wants to divide and conquer, as always, by thinking about City-based regions (presumably London for the South-East, Bristol for the West, Birmingham for the Midlands, Cambridge for East Anglia, Manchester for the North West, and Newcastle for the North East), but the obvious answer is for England to have the same devolved powers and all devolution to be at the same level.

What we did in WEU coordinating foreign and defence policy in Europe was to ensure that horizontal communication (and no, I don't mean get-a-room) was continued across the Nations so it could not become a Power Game. The same should happen inside the UK, with an Assembly for each devloved Ministerial area to ensure no unmanageabe disparity of policy arises. At that point, the only Central functions needed become those where the UK as a whole has to have a single external position, in other words Foreign and Defence policy and finance.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 07:04 AM

The important point is that "extra powers" were promised by all three Westminster clowns....guaranteed!!

They lied.   They knew very well that the powers would be undeliverable, but as the referendum would be won or lost by then, it wouldn't matter.

They don't need to grant extra powers to Scotland from "day one" as they promised, but if they fail to do so, the Scottish people will punish them at the next election.

The UK is already split, one more chop should do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:39 AM

Seen somewhere else but I really liked it:

"1: Edinburgh Agreement signed 15th October 2012

2: "The VOW" appears on the front page of the Daily Record - aka "Scotland's National Comic" on the 16th September 2014

3: Independence Referendum held in Scotland 18th September 2014

4: By Monday 22nd September, 2014 the recently departed but still annoyingly and stridently audible Alex Salmond is muttering because the new powers have not yet been granted.

In this vow no new additional specific powers were detailed, they did mention the one's that the Scottish Parliament has always had but for some strange reason never used.

Change has been promised, change will be delivered - but that change will be delivered right across the board in Northern Ireland, Wales, England and in Scotland. England will get it's Parliament or National Assembly in which no Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish MP can vote.

I would doubt very much if the 48 hour gap between the publication of "The VOW" made any difference at all - my mind on the referendum was made up on the 15th October 2012 as I suppose were most of those who intended voting NO - to attempt to state anything other than that or that "The VOW" was a factor is simply ridiculous."

The SNP wanted the Independence Referendum the people of Scotland DID NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 08:46 AM

How can David Cameron be a liar and Alex Salmond not? They do a similar job don't they?

It is this belief in people to the point of anybody else must be a liar that politicians depend on. The little people who fall for bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 01:39 PM

I heard Cameron, Darling, Brown, The Liberal wally, all declare that Scotland would be given new extra powers over Taxation, Benefits and Social Services, if the SCOTTISH people voted NO in the referendum.

England, Wales or Northern Ireland could not vote in the referendum, so these imaginary powers must have been exclusively for the SCOTTISH government......no ifs, no buts, they lied and they will continue to lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: selby
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:01 PM

As I understand it there is a a timetable of events to deliver what was promised as we have not reached a milestone date yet and failed how can anyone be a liar. Equally to say that people who voted against the wishes of the yes camp where bribed, is doing there own country man a disservice. Me thinks the Yes voters need to grow up understand how democracy works and work to a good outcome.

In an earlier post someone mentioned where regional capitals may locate they omitted to say that YORKSHIRE,s regional capital will obviously in York.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:18 PM

More citizens of the world, fewer of any nations united in saying We are us and all of you guys are Them! If you're going to secede, join the planet, don't make your own new/cling to your own old, dvisive boundaries. If you don't want to be united with the rest of your fellow nationals, try to figure out what is up with *you* instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 02:32 PM

Keith. Its Leeds. The regional government set up offices under Prescott ahead of assembly legislation that never happened. Public health was one workstream they got going and I sat on that group representing regulation. (Not a waste of time because the work became invaluable for specialised commissioning of cancer services, but I digress.)

Trust me. Leeds is the capital of Yorkshire.. I speak as a lad brought up around Sheffield, and could never understand it either. We've got a real football team for Clapton's sake. Just the one mind you.. York is a tourist trap with a hoopy music shop off the northern ring road.

Of course, to be coterminus with existing regional bodies, it is Yorkshire and The Humber, so Leeds as the capital of Yorkshire would considered alongside Brigg and Grimsby, the capitals of North Lincs and North East Lincs accordingly.

Your comments re certain failed nationalists in the counties of The UK that make up Scotland are bang on though..

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 07:32 PM

so, is england doomed?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 Sep 14 - 07:43 PM

They seem to call themselves "The 45" these days. I prefer to call them "The 44.7" as none of them are quite the full article.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 02:45 AM

Quite.

Mind you, there's a reason why Akenaton should be able to spot a liar...

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 02:59 AM

Hi John, finally jumped off that pesky fence? :0)
Hope all is well.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:52 AM

Hi Akenaton,

It was the antics of The Yes campaign which pushed me over to the other side. I was actually prepared to listen to much of what they had to say and many of them are good, honourable people. However, all the various factions were offering different visions and policies while the views and behaviour of some was quite extreme to say the least.

As polling day approached I became even more determined to vote "No" and it had nothing to do with "the vow", fear stories or any of that nonsense. Besides, the pro Indy people didn't need to take any lessons re scare mongering themselves and were offering unrealistic and wild promises which would have been unachievable.

You can always expect some exaggerations and half truths in an a election campaign but we should all be prepared to accept the result and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:18 AM

Maybe so John, but I don't think the young people will be prepared to "move on", which in their case means move back into an existence of hopelessness....They have tasted the same dish as we did in the sixties and they will want to feel as if they can contribute and have a purpose.
The rebirth of political thought amongst the young folk was to me, an amazing experience, I thought idealism was quite dead.
The only negative to me, was the resurrection of the old malady, sectarianism....and its link to the Unionist cause.

Always nice to hear from you John, and I always treat your views with the greatest respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 05:31 AM

"the resurrection of the old malady, sectarianism....and its link to the Unionist cause"

I never even knew about sectarianism until I came down to The Central Belt and even there it seemed to be mainly from Bathgate westwards. I'm sure the majority of No voters in Scotland wouldn't even have considered such views when reaching their decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:59 AM

You've led a very sheltered life John. :0)

I believe it is worse in the West and the central belt, a hangover from the days that the Labour mafia held power through its use and the works were controlled by Unionist bosses,
"Whit school did ye go tae son".

On my reckoning, at least 5% voted primarily on sectarian lines, another 5% on promises of Devo- Max which will never be made good.
The well off pensioners, featherbedded by the Scottish Govt voted 75% NO.
The young folks voted 75% YES.....and they are the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:12 AM

In my school in Inverness, children of all faiths studied together. There was never an issue.

New figures from The Herald indicate that only the 25-39 age group voted Yes.

Overall, even the 16-24 age group voted against independence.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/referendum-survey-suggests-a-slender-majority-of-young-people-voted-no.25407723

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM

Sorry, Johnny, but that's going too far. The original herald article wisely points out this is based on a survey of a little over 3000 but "However, only 14 people in that age group responded to the survey.".

Or to put it another way, it would be a serious error to assume *anything* about the 16-24 year olds in such a tiny sample. Consider, for example, what the 'swing' would be if any of that 14 were replaced by a voter of the opposite persuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 08:39 AM

Of course, all surveys are flawed.

Also, I don't believe that any person's vote should be dismissed or regarded as having more or less value because of their age. Both older and younger people have an equal right to decide on the country's future.

Views and political opinions can also change or mellow over the years. Many angry young men and women will eventually become grumpy auld gits.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:18 AM

Devolved parliaments for the various regions of England? I welcome the prospect with open arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:20 AM

One would only choose York, Leeds or Sheffield if one chose to ignore regionality completely, and go instead for increased local devolution, to County level.
The reason for suggesting Newcastle is its historic geography in relation to the Debateable Lands, which we well know here. The Midlands are already over-represented in the model I gave, and adding Leeds or Sheffield, or even York, leaves a howling gap in the North. This was a past mistake not to be repeated.
But as it is, you miss my point: regional devolution was voted down a while back, and will not be back on the table for a very long time, certainly not in the next half century. The model that is working is Scotland, is Wales, is Northern Ireland: which only leaves England, at an intermediate level.
Yes, you could argue that the other groups are a fistful of millions, and england is very diverse. The South East on such a basis would be the equivalent of several Scotlands, and unless we were to take London separately from Home Counties as a ring around it, then any other separation would make little sense. Even then, living within easy walking distance of the northern edge of Greater London, the fact one can cross a road and find oneself outside the boundary without seeing any social distinction, makes it an illogical distinction.
It almost makes more sense to revert to the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms grosso-modo, Wessex, East Anglia, Mercia, The North, Home Counties.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:55 AM

"The only negative to me, was the resurrection of the old malady, sectarianism....and its link to the Unionist cause."

Scottish Unionist cause, sectarianism is virtually unknown in England thankfully. There is an Orange lodge in Manchester as I stumbled upon them marching a couple of years ago. A few sad old men with angry faces living in the past and a rather pathetic sight; an anachronism.

Growing up in Brum my mates were catholic and C of E and the only way it affected us was they went to mass some Fridays and were late out.

Surely sectarianism is linked to football too? The old firm derby and all that?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 10:30 AM

You miss my point, Johnny. I am not saying the survey is flawed. A critical part of any survey is its margin of error, and in the case of this survey for the 16-24 year olds the margin of error in something like 14%. That is, whatever the stated figure it could be higher or lower by roughly 14%. Because of that range, it would be unwise to make any deductions from the headline value. I would need more information to calculate it precisely, but you can get a rough idea of the margin of error by noting that with 14 people each individual vote represents approx 7% of the final result. So changing a yes voter to a no or vice verse gives something like a 14% swing.

That is a completely different issue from whether a 16-year-olds vote is more or less significant than a 70 year olds.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:47 PM

following the vote in scotland there has been a big increase in membership for parties supporting the Yes campaign - SNP, scottish greens and scottish socialists. i heard plenty of northern english (based) people during the debate supporting the positive scots and envying their initiative and better politics. some of us joked (or dreamed) about moving the border south (maybe the M25 would be good) - and plenty of people oop north (i'm in cumbria) would rather be ruled from edinburgh than london. does anyone know of any groups in england who are campaigning on anti austerity, scrap trident etc sort of issues who are trying to import some of this scottish energy. would it possible for all us old splitters and idealists to ever build a genuinely popular left movement again?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:03 PM

Left movement?

Even Bonny Prince Jowly pointed out independence was an apolitical ideal.

You think it was about people with your politics. Akenaton thinks it was about people with his. You can't both be right.

Though of course, you may possibly both be wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:28 PM

that was part of my question - can we get people with a broad range of views on the left to work together to bring a bit of hopeful energy to the political scene? will scots now condemned to westminster rule for the foreseeable join with the more progressive elements south of the border? is this an opportunity for the greens, especially with the labour party giving up any pretence of being a left of centre party?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:50 PM

DMcG very good point.
Polls and stats have a significant potential for error UNLESS u are a politician or or have a hidden personal agenda
I mean there are lies, damned lies and statistics. :<)

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 06:51 PM

This is kinda an interesting poll. However, unlike many surveys, they do not seem to give many details on the statistical methods if selecting the respondants- so, it is difficulty to determine the rating of statistical accuracy.


yougovt poll 

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:52 AM

1: "can we get people with a broad range of views on the left to work together to bring a bit of hopeful energy to the political scene?"

I dare say that you could try, but as usual it would ultimately end in failure, as the last time this was tried was. Every experimentation in "socialism" starts out well supported with everyone yelling how great it will all be, then those actually running the show find themselves confronting real problems that require real solutions which may prove to be highly unpopular so the problems get ignored or "fudged". Then when it all turns to shit (As it did in 1951; 1970; 1979 & 20104i.e. those responsible for running things} weren't really "socialists" after all.

2: "will scots now condemned to westminster rule for the foreseeable join with the more progressive elements south of the border?"

Ah GUEST,achmelvich since 1999 no Scots have been condemned to Westminster rule - they have had their own Parliament which has been almost exclusively "left-wing" and "socialist" in nature. That devolved Parliament was granted tax raising powers from its inception but no Scottish Government whether Labour or Scottish Nationalist ever saw fit to use them {Much easier to blame Westminster which is what Jowly & Co did during the Referendum Campaign} - which kinda begs the question "If you don't use the extra powers you've had for 15 years, what the hell are you going to do with these additional powers being called for now?"

The additional powers will never be used to increase tax revenue as that would make the elected government unpopular with the electorate - No good just saying "Tax the Rich" because then the rich just move taking their money with them and you end up taking in less than before - your tax regime must not only be "fair" but it has to seen as being "fair to all" (Top 10% income bracket {The Rich} pay ~45% of the total tax revenue collected from income) squeezing them more is generally not a good idea short, medium of long term.

Between 1997 and 2010 there appeared to be a meeting of minds between these socialist progressive minds north and south of the border - it resulted in the country {The UK} going from being fairly well positioned financially and economically to almost being totally ruined.   

3: "is this an opportunity for the greens"

The Greens as partners are "toxic" for any potential political party - take them onboard and you end up getting roped into daft deals that cost a fortune in terms of money, businesses and jobs.

4: "especially with the labour party giving up any pretence of being a left of centre party?"

There you go - Not real socialists - but I am pleased that you have met and have recognised that new phenomenon - the Professional Politician - capable of sporting any campaign rosette of any colour, never held down an actual job in his life, and is only interested in gaining power by whatever means, subterfuge or promise (None of which he ever intended to honour) then is totally focused on holding onto power irrespective of the damage done to the country in pursuit of that goal - Thus Gordon Brown sold off the Gold Reserves of the UK and raided the Pension Funds (To buy votes) allowed unchecked mass immigration to ensure there would be a sufficiency of Labour voters at the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:18 AM

1. 'can we get people with a broad range of views on the left to work together on the political scene and bring a bit of hopeful energy?' not always doomed to failure - see scotland in the last month.
2. can that energy move south? well, the greens are doing well down here too - me and mrs ach just joined, anyway
3. not ruled from westminster? heard on the radio this morning that the uk government has informed the scottish government by phone call that the central belt area of scotland is to be approved for fracking. no consultation with the people or the parliament. where's your devolved powers noo? really, you would think that english politicians were deliberately trying to annoy the scots - and that's before the tory conference and a few days of ukip. referundum or not we are increasingly become 2 more different parties

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:23 AM

oops - when i said 'parties' i meant countries. if england wants to go down the tory lite/tory/ultra tory route with continued austerity and cameronjohnson/farage in charge, trident and endless wars then formal seperation with scotland is inevitable - just a matter of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 04:04 AM

Scotland in the last month?? The entire United Kingdom over the period of the last two years has been subjected to highly damaging and unnecessary upheaval and uncertainty on a whim promoted by a minority in Scotland. There was absolutely nothing "hopeful" about it - The Scottish Independence Referendum - a complete and utter waste of time, money and resources.

For your sake I do earnestly hope that one day "The Greens" will eventually come up with something that is vaguely sensible that doesn't cost anybody their job and that meets the demands required by society.

Fracking? "Though energy policy is an area reserved to the UK government under the Scotland Act 1998 that established devolved government for Scotland, the Scottish Government has an energy policy for Scotland at variance with UK policy, and has planning powers to enable it to put some aspects of its policy priorities into effect."

Sorry but I thought that the SNP were all for fracking in order to boost the country's income from fossil fuels - ask the members of the N56 Business Body Committee that Jowly & Co., were so keen on quoting.

"Continued Austerity" - By that are you referring to the "not-so-drastic" measures that had to be implemented by the Coalition Government in 2010 to get the country out of the shit left as usual by the outgoing Labour Government? The "not-so-drastic" measures that have managed to turn the economy round and has given the UK the best economic growth figures in the western world? Our current leaders are actually in fact leading and do not seem overly preoccupied in winning a popularity contest - but there again government is about leadership and about being able to follow through on tough decisions made for the good of the nation as a whole (Government is about looking out for the national interest - we citizens are responsible for looking after ourselves).

"Trident" - The majority of people want it - live with it - it is the only thing that actually defends our country and guarantees our freedom and sovereignty.

"Endless Wars"?? What endless wars?? The UK has not been engaged in a war since 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:06 AM

I was with you till the last bit Terribulus. It may be technically correct but there are enough young war widows and greiving parents to seek clarification of your claim we have not been at war since 1945...

Hitherto, I was bemused when agreeing with many of your valid points re Scotland and the political reality but then reading some of your more ludicrous comments about The Middle East. I've sussed it. It's armed conflict where you have difficulties grasping reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 05:28 AM

Musket old chap radicalist/fundamentalist/militant Islam declared "war" on the rest of the non-believing world about 43 years ago.

All instances where British Forces have been engaged on active service since the end of the Second World War have been in response to obligations related to bilateral self-defence treaties, in response to requests by the United Nations, in response to assistance requested as "Aid to the Civil Power", in response to obligations related to membership of NATO or in response to naked aggression and direct invasion of sovereign territory. IIRC 1968 was the only year since the end of the Second World War that no UK serviceman or woman was killed on active duty.

To state that the United Kingdom has not been "at War" since 1945 is not merely technically correct Musket - it is factually correct, perhaps you should review what it means for a nation to be at war actually involves.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:05 AM

There is no good reason for Scotland to be IN NATO, in fact we would be much safer outside......as someone who lives only a few miles from Coulport, as the crow flies, I would be delighted to see the weapons of mass destruction removed and proper jobs found for those who service them.

Achmelvich is correct, we have been involved in military adventures almost continuously for the last thirty years all of these adventures have been to make political points, not for the good of the people we were supposed to be assisting. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and soon Syria are lawless wastelands, prefect breeding grounds for the lunatics of Islamic fundamentalism. Even the Falklands was a wild gamble which came off and gave the Tories a few more years of power.

I do not think this state of affairs happened "by accident", I am sure the destabilisation of the Middle East and North Africa was a long term objective of NATO and the West.

Divide and rule being the maxim, but the whole scenario has got out of hand, now it has become a damage limitation exercise.

For a small trading nation we would be much better out of NATO and out of the political machinations of the EU.
The dream lives, and SNP membership keeps growing   over 60,000 from 17'000 in a week........roll on the election and God help Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:12 AM

"For a small trading nation we would be much better out of NATO and out of the political machinations of the EU."

Not SNP policy at the moment. Do all the new members realise that?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: selby
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:20 AM

In case it has escaped anyone Scotland can not get out of NATO as it is part of The United Kingdom, Scotland by a clear majority last week voted to stay in the UK.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 08:27 AM

"I am sure the destabilisation of the Middle East and North Africa was a long term objective of NATO and the West."

Ludicrous creating an unstable Middle-East and North Africa is of benefit to NATO? and the "big,bad, West" in what way Akenaton?

"Divide and rule being the maxim"

Really? Whose? Pray tell where have either NATO or "The West" divided and ruled in the entire 65 years of their existence?

A small trading nation is correct - become independent and you lose 80% of your trade at a stroke.

Choice between creating a Scottish Defence Force and increasing benefits by £2 a week and the vote will go for benefits, resulting in the situation where anyone can fish out your waters and anyone could take over your offshore oil and gas fields then hold them to ransom - independent Scotland would not be able to do a single thing about it.

SNP membership growing? All that proves is that there are at least 60,000 truly certifiable eedjits in amongst Scotland's population of some 5,313,600 people {That amounts to 1.12% of the population}.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 09:05 AM

There wasn't a single political party advocating withdrawal from NATO during the independence debate. Also, the party Akenaton claims to be a member of led the legislative work to introduce gay marriage and equal rights for all, irrespective of race, gender, disability or sexual orientation. Yet he claims they are in tune with his sick creed.

I doubt he actually knows what SNP is, although I did email SNP communications office with a link to his claims on this website that Salmond believes the exact opposite of his party manifesto, and gave Akenaton's details.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:07 AM

Aw, don't fret, Musket, we all know the real Akhenaten had medical problems. He's just copying his avatar.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 11:45 AM

Is that who he bases himself on? Is it an alternative spelling or a measure of intellect?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:20 PM

Akenaton and myself have had several robust discussions over the years on different forums but we always had the decency to address each other directly and never saw fit to resort to making such snide comments as those I've read in the last few posts.

By all means, we can disagree with each other and challenge opinions but, please, can we try to play the ball and not the man?

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:36 PM

I never said withdrawal from NATO and the EU were official SNP policy John, but after we become an independent nation EVERYTHING is on the table. It is up to the politicians who are elected to government to present policies which will be acceptable to the Scottish people, In all probability it will be a Scottish Labour/SNP coalition.

Mr T..."
Ludicrous creating an unstable Middle-East and North Africa is of benefit to NATO? and the "big,bad, West" in what way Akenaton?"

Well Sir, can you think of any other reason that that they should have behaved in such an utterly stupid fashion?
I don't believe we can put the whole shambles down to stupidity.
The removal of the dictators Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, and the Egyptian guy who's name escapes me,opened up the whole fundamentalist
can of worms, yet we move into a coalition with the worst dictatorships in the Middle East, people who have been funding the decapitators for years....Ludicrous indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:39 PM

"The UK has not been engaged in a war since 1945."

This is Tezza trolling. He chucks in arguments involving sematics when he's up against it. For all his instance we've been at war with someone since the Falklands pretty much.

Are you happy now we're off again Tezza? There's not enough gore in the world for many it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Yes Scotland.....and the rest of us?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 12:44 PM

Ian....You are like a record player with the needle stuck in the groove......take your homosexual "marriage" and stick it where the sun don't shine, go back and play in your sand pit, we are discussing issues of some importance to the people of Scotland and the UK.

Homosexual "marriage" is of importance to 0.04 of the population.....and YOU of course!