A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 02:02 PM

He never once shaved a whisker
Until the day he died,
He drove them through with his hammer,
And bit them off inside.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Cool Beans
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 01:28 PM

You could just omit the verse. The song stands well without it, establishing the larger-then-life, tough-guy caricature of the logger who stirs coffee with his thumb and would eat a booze-soaked bale of hay.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Planetluvver
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 01:27 PM

One approach is to clean it up for your performances. Then provide a the teacher with suggestions of supplemental exercises for the kids to complete after you have left. This could include a reference to an original source.

I think the kids are unlikely to remember that you switched a word or two years down the road. The important thing is that they have the experience in the first place. This won't happen if you are considered too controversial and are not hired for future gigs.

I think your role in that age group is to keep them curious, expose them to new ideas and experiences. Years later, they can figure out what the correct word should have been.

I have been teaching "This Land is Your Land" to my young grand-children, but I am careful to omit the later verses because the parents may object. The kids won't remember which verses I sang when they were preschoolers.

I am so glad that children have this opportunity. In my school, singing was limited. History was remembering dates and places of battles and politics. I hated it.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 08:47 AM

The only bit of sanitizing I will do to a song is if one word is overtly racists and a sub can be found that still tells the story. The Year of Jubilo has the line "....darkies have you seen the master..." I substitute "...workers..." and continue on with what is, for the most part, a positive song.

Several years ago I got into it pretty good with with some people on the forum over Gypsy songs. For the most part, here in the States, there is still a romantic view of the Gypsy life and there isn't the racist connection. In fact the name Travelers has more of a negative tone than does Gypsy. Ewan Macoll and Peggy Seeger certainly used the word in The Traveling People.

I am more likely to "English Up" a Scots song a little to make the lyrics more accessible to a US audience. Pad The Road is a good example of a song that requires little alteration and still keeping the charm.

Perhaps it it isn't enough to just he aware of your audience but it certainly would be a start.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 07:24 AM

I've sung "Frozen Logger" for kids a lot of times, and the always like it. I never noticed them reacting to the word "horny." I do notice reaction to some words used for gay people, like "gay" and "faggot." I generally don't sanitize the songs I sing for kids. But if I use a word and get a reaction that distracts from the song, I change the word. No big deal.

I think I get more criticism of my songs from parents, than from the kids. That kids are usually cool with things and are far more sophisticated than their parents give them credit for. But parents can be fussy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:43 AM

So what if the kids snigger at it? Where's the harm? "Horny hide" makes perfect sense to me, and has the virtue of alliteration.

At rehearsals for a school production of "Macbeth" someone missed his cue in Act 1 Scene 2, which begins "What bloody man is this?". The teacher in charge called out "Where's the bloody sergeant?" How we laughed.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 06:35 PM

The Og: It may be part of the "folk process" to change the words of folk songs, but The Frozen Logger is what my folksinger father lovingly called a "fake song" - it was written by James Stevens.

THE FROZEN LOGGER
(James Stevens)

As I sat down one evening within a small cafe,
A forty year old waitress to me these words did say:

"I see that you are a logger, and not just a common bum,
'Cause nobody but a logger stirs his coffee with is thumb.

My lover was a logger, there's none like him today;
If you'd pour whiskey on it he could eat a bale of hay

He never shaved his whiskers from off of his horny hide;
He'd just drive them in with a hammer and bite them off inside.

My lover came to see me upon one freezing day;
He held me in his fond embrace which broke three vertebrae.

He kissed me when we parted, so hard that he broke my jaw;
I could not speak to tell him he'd forgot his mackinaw.

I saw my lover leaving, sauntering through the snow,
Going gaily homeward at forty-eight below.

The weather it tried to freeze him, it tried its level best;
At a hundred degrees below zero, he buttoned up his vest.

It froze clean through to China, it froze to the stars above;
At a thousand degrees below zero, it froze my logger love.

They tried in vain to thaw him, and would you believe me, sir
They made him into axeblades, to chop the Douglas fir.

And so I lost my lover, and to this café I come,
And here I wait till someone stirs his coffee with his thumb."

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 02:19 PM

The Canadian version of the Book of Common Praise has the moon version of that hymn.

You know you're in Ontario when the choir sings "peeee-culiar honours".

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: BobL
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 02:52 AM

His kingdom stretch - duh!

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: BobL
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 02:54 AM

Charmion, it does, and that is an excellent example.

It's also an example of a hymn where two slightly different versions are current:
    His reign shall stretch from shore to shore
      Till moons shall wax and wane no more / Till suns shall rise and set no more.

In this case it's not obvious which is the original and which the changed version (although I could no doubt find out), nor why it was thought necessary to make the change.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: meself
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 04:13 PM

I realize the thread and its question are years old now, but ... I would either change the word or just not sing the song - because I can't stand it when people giggle and snort over stupid shit like that - even if they have the excuse of being children ... it makes me want to go home and have a drink ....

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 11:39 AM

BobL: The old Anglican hymn known as "Duke Street" (Jesus shall reign where'er the Sun) features this line:

"Let every creature rise and bring / Peculiar honours to our King ..."

It was composed by the Reverend Isaac Watts, who was born in 1674. At that time, "peculiar" meant "specific to that person or thing".

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: The Og
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 11:06 AM

People change lyrics all the time...it's part of the folk process!

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: GUEST,Karen Impola
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 10:44 AM

FWIW, the version I heard as a child (sung by Oscar Brand, perhaps? circa late 50's/early 60's) had the line as "from off his leather hide".

And YouTube has a version by Jimmie Rodgers (not the singing brakeman, this guy was recording in 1958), who says "thorny hide".

So, the line's been changed before.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: BobL
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 03:57 AM

My own repertoire includes a song where I have to point out in advance that the phrase "gay old bugger" doesn't have today's meaning. But then I usually sing in places such as pubs, where the young and innocent are unlikely to be present.

In my own nipperhood I learned that some songs, hymns in particular, were written a long time ago and included words ("without", "prevent") that had changed their meaning since. This made perfect sense to me, and so did the old hymns once I'd got my head round the words in question. Admittedly my mind had to work a bit harder if the surface meaning seemed comic or inappropriate. But at that age, learning new words, and new meanings to old words, was an everyday occurrence.

We shouldn't necessarily avoid words just because one particular meaning presents difficulties. Teaching other meanings is, I suggest, part and parcel of education.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 01:24 AM

I think it might be a good lesson for children in schools to learn that words may have had a different meaning in different times, and that's OK. I'm not sure it's good to censor songs with words like "horny" or "gay" or "fag," or even "nigger." I think we have to learn a broader approach, and I can't say I know how to do that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 01:21 AM

I 'learned' the song as follows:

"He never shaved a whisker off of his hairy hide...
He'd just pound 'em in with a mallet, and bite 'em off inside"

I not only don't find one particular version sacrosanct, I don't know what a 'horney hide' is in the context of whiskers.

I don't find the song has to be a metaphorical expression of class or profession. I take it in the Paul Bunyon tradition of frotierspeople being tough and having their own traditions of telling lies, each one bigger ' n the last. In the context of humor.

You can certainly let your mileage vary.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:56 PM

I remember it as "off of his horny hide."

Subject: RE: A song dilemma (frozen logger cleanup for school)
From: GUEST,Karen Impola
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 11:45 PM

FWIW, the version I heard as a child (sung by Oscar Brand, perhaps? circa late 50's/early 60's) had the line as "from off his leather hide".

And YouTube has a version by Jimmie Rodgers (not the singing brakeman, this guy was recording in 1958), who says "thorny hide".

So, the line's been changed before.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 10:48 PM

I remember the words as
"from off his hoary hide"

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 03:19 PM

Great...very sunny winter.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 12:22 PM

Nice to see your name pop up Mary. How are things down there in "Cranberry Land"?   bob

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 11:56 AM

I personally would never sing a song that made fun of working class men and I am sure Bob would not either. I don't see the song as making fun of anyone, but rather remembering the days when we had amazing men who cut down amazing trees.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 11:48 AM

I am with you Bob..don't change the words unless your back is to the wall. Just say ahead of the song that some words have old meanings.

From Jovial Miners..my hands are horny hard and black from digging in the vein

My preference is to never change the words unless it is an outrageous word that needs to be retired from usage period, or unless it is such an awful rhythm or rhyme it can't be sung and never ever to change from men to women back to men etc. That ruins a song for me. But people can do what they want actually.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 11:09 AM

btw.. there's a more appropriate alternative word [and a quite obvious one, really]
that better conveys the meaning than "for two years I chopped and I labored"

"for two years I chopped and I slaved"


well...???

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 10:37 AM

Having growed up in the woods of the Pacific NOrthwest, I've always known many horney hided loggers. You can spot them a mile away ... their facial skin is weathered beyond belief ... the deep crevasses in their faces hold great quantities of dirt and pine needles ... their fingers are often missing or miss-shapen. In other words, they look like LOGGERS! bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 08:58 AM

"leth'ry" - scores 10 pragmatic compromise points.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 06:39 AM

The last 2 posts have me puzzled.
I never know what that word means.
No to what?

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 05:31 AM

ABSOLUTELY NO!!

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: breezy
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 04:46 AM

'ornery '

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 04:42 AM

"Even a rhinoceros doesn't really have a horny hide; the horn is an appendage, not part of the hide." (From: GUEST Date: 09 Mar 15 - 09:39 AM)

For the sake of other pedants; the rhinoceros "horn" is not made of horn either but matted hair, still mainly keratin but not actual horn. In the sense that it's made of hair and hair is an integral component of skin (hide), then rhinoceros horn could be considered hide. - And now back to using words in context!

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 03:56 AM

Two points for "M."

Touché!!!

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,M
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 03:24 AM

'I get a kick out of Seamus Kennedy's recording of "Wee Willie Lost His Marley." Of course, he has to explain what a marley and a peeler and a gratin' are - but he also explains what a clothespole is.'

Don't you mean a clae's prop?

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 02:50 AM

In my reply up at the top of the thread, I advised "Don't change the lyrics. The word itself is not offensive ....". The meaning of "horney" is set by the context.

The Old Settler makes reference to a word that has become offensive to most people in any context. The context links it directly to working like a slave, so the reference cannot be avoided. In this case, I would change the word and "laboured" seems a pretty good alternative.

Personally, I put "gay" into the in-context category. I find it a lovely word to describe being happy and carefree. I never change it, hoping to reclaim it for the world.

Having read through the thread, I take note of the reply from Mysha (09 Mar 15 - 03:25 AM). If a giggle-word causes a distraction, an interpretation may be better than my more academic approach. It depends on what you are trying to achieve.

DC

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 11:03 PM

AHA ... I was expecting that someone might raise the issue of the "N" word. "The Frozen Logger" has almost a companian song here in the Pacific Northwest area of Washington (USA) state. And that song is "The Old Settler." It was written by Judge Francis Henry in the 1880's, before washington was even a "state."

One of the early verses was written as:

"... for two years I chopped and I niggered,
   but I never got down to the soil" ...

I, early on, always sang it as:

"... for two years I chopped and I labored,
   but I never got down to the soil" ...

Soooooo ... here's the same issue.

Where does one draw the line, EH? Good question, isn't it? bob(deckman)nelsn

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 10:15 PM

ok ok ok I also infinitely prefer to keep to the original [especially when known, and not already been through the misheard|misremembered|folk process]. But I'd still go with the specifics of the "gig" as many posters have noted.

So, maybe you musical pundits and purists could say even when prefaced with a listener discretion advisory if they would sing the n word as it appears in Stephen Foster? After all, it's historically accurate, though far from politically correct.

excuse the drift; it's been a good thread.

keep on pickin'
dennis

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 09:01 PM

An American duo who played here once sang a Geordie song that included the line 'He stood on the corner with a fag in his mouth....'
As they came to that verse one said "This is where American audiences start laughing!"
Went down well here too.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 06:45 PM

JOE ... Thank you for your clearity. Obviously ... "THE PROBLEM IS APPARENT!" bad bad bob

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 05:32 PM

LoL about the Horniman Museum. But one can go crazy if one takes things to extremes. Never heard anyone object to Arsenal Football Club: and they'd better not either!

≈M≈

{They beat Man U tonite: Hurrah!}

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 02:52 PM

Singing for kids is a tough gig - especially when there are parents around who are second-guessing what's appropriate for their children. The parents want to make sure every word is understandable, that there are no phrases that could possibly have double meanings, and that there are no objectionable words of any sort. Sometimes, they even want printed copies of the lyrics you're going to sing. If you can sing for kids without worried parents and teachers present, it's cool. The kids get along just fine, and their impressionable minds are not damaged by hearing folk songs.

I get a kick out of Seamus Kennedy's recording of "Wee Willie Lost His Marley." Of course, he has to explain what a marley and a peeler and a gratin' are - but he also explains what a clothespole is.

I'm surprised that anybody would think twice about "horny hide," and I've never changed it - but I know many parents (and teachers afraid of parents and school boards) would demand a change if they noticed it. If I'm singing for kids and come across "gay" or "horny" and they laugh, what of it? It gives us something to talk about when the song is over, if there's a need for that.

But it's the parents who cause the problem....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 02:49 PM

I love the language of old ballads but like Tunesmith I do alter some words from time to time. In Peggy and the Soldier I've changed the line
"They marched so bold and they looked so gay,
The colors flying and the band did play."
to
"They marched so bold in their fine array,..."

just so it's not a distraction and I don't think it detracts from the strong visual image in this case.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Chris C
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 02:16 PM

Fair point, Steve; I wince at making any changes myself. But a teacher parsing R & J is presumably teaching an approved curriculum. Also, that's standard high school reading, never (to my knowledge) middle school, as in Deckman's scenario, for the reason you noted (mature content).
A musician popping in to middle schools to perform isn't really teaching a specifically approved curriculum, so it's tougher to say what's OK. Too many poor word choices, and he potentially risks losing his gig, not just his message. I bet he also has to weigh time constraints; talking about the language could be drifting off topic.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 01:22 PM

I really resent having to alter words from the past in historical documents. I'd rather explain their original meaning, even to young people. I taught in lower secondary for nearly 40 years. Romeo and Juliet is full of sexual imagery but I don't see any of that being cut or altered!

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 01:10 PM

But joking aside, if it was me, I'd have a quick word with the teachers before class,
notifying there might be the odd mildly problematic 'historic useage' word,
and invite their informed opinion & input on how best between you to handle it with the kids.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 01:04 PM

So, best not tell the kids about the historic musical equipment collection at London's "Horniman Museum".

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,Emjay, sans cookie
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 12:51 PM

When I first learned the song about 60 years ago horny was often used to describe tough leathery skin. Slang changes. Other words got the giggles when I was in school. Even say that when you introduce the song, but as I told my kids when they were growing up, don't limit your vocabulary to please other people.
Use the opportunity talk about a few words that don't always mean what we think they do.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 12:39 PM

Deckman, you've got me thinking about kids and about this song.

First off, I'd say that you should change 'horny' to 'hairy.' Why? You are short-circuiting the gigglers who are disrupting your act. They know perfectly well that horny comes from horn, but they want to draw attention to themselves. ("What's he giggling about?") Don't let them do it.

But do children get "The Frozen Logger"? Because it's not about a frozen logger, it's a song about cultural stereotypes. It's making fun of macho, tough-guy, working-class males.

Do you demonstrate stirring your coffee with your thumb? The kids have probably never seen anybody do it.

And when I hear the phrase "forty-year old waitress," it brings up a big set of mental associations and assumptions. Do kids have that? Particularly the kind of boy who was weaned off a pacifier by having a joystick placed in his hands?

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 12:20 PM

Well that's all the folk songs with the word "wood" buggered then.

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: Chris C
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 12:17 PM

Hi Deckman:
Thanks for your efforts to bring traditional music to young people. I'm glad to hear there's funding.
As much I'm 100% in philosophical agreement with NOT changing the lyric, there is perhaps a little more to consider. With elementary & middle-school kids in mind...
You don't want to undermine your own efforts by being remembered for one unfortunate(?) word. "A man sang old songs at school today" is good. "A man said 'horny' in a song at school today", not so much.
Also, things being what they are in the good ol' USA, I wouldn't go near even the most vaguely questionable terminology around young kids where it can be avoided. Only one parent, teacher, student or administrator has to decide something was inappropriate, and you're (potentially) done. They'd be wrong, and the whole mess would be stupid, but the problem would be all yours. It really doesn't take much to get some folks worked up.
And, there's an excellent workaround in "thorny" (courtesy of gillymor, above). Much as I hate to say it, there's some merit in considering a change. Save the "real" version for less immature audiences, and avoid the distraction altogether. Hard enough to win over new fans of traditional music as it is.
Food for thought, maybe.
~Chris

Subject: RE: A song dilemma
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 11:57 AM

Well, I'd change the lyrics!
For example, the few years back I was asked to teach "Jamaica Farewell" to the group of 7/8 year old school children.
Now, the song starts off
"Down the way where the nights are gay"

I knew the word "gay" would create a fuss and so I changed the lyrics to
"Down the way where the warm wind play".

I could, of course, have gone down the "words changing meaning route" but I thought that such a discussion would be a distraction, and I could imagine some "clever" children insisting on singing the original lyrics!