BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 09:59 AM

Greg, you have no chance of getting an acknowledgement of Israeli atrocities. My post of 10 July (07.25) merely elicited the response "no country is completely innocent"

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 09:50 AM

Jim, if you want your tired old anti-Israel propaganda answered again

OK then, Keith: how about some NEW "anti-Israeli Propaganda" (as you choose to call it) on your favorite hobbyhorse of "Christian Persecution":

++++++++

JERUSALEM (AP) 12 July 2015— Israeli police have arrested a number of suspects in last month's arson attack on a famous Catholic church in the Holy Land, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said Sunday.

The fire is believed to be an attack by Jewish extremists, but Rosenfeld would not elaborate on the identity of those arrested.

In recent years, mosques and churches have been targeted by vandals in similar attacks. They are often attributed to extremist Jews from West Bank settlements.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:52 PM

It was originally opened with a closed mind, if that helps?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:49 PM

It was closed a few hours ago unless I'm confusing it with some other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:42 PM

"Is this thread open or closed?"
Doesn't appear to be closed -why should it be
We're all behaving ourselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:38 PM

Is this thread open or closed?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 08:28 AM

"Jim, if you are afraid to enter into debate on this"
Enter a debate on what?
I've said what I believe are the causes of terrorism today - it's not me who is trying to censor discussion STOP IT
Your "thread drift" ploy is far to common for you to possibly deny it - you have been warned about it by me and various other members for years - it is one of your more undemocratic traits.
Please, please continue to deny it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 05:03 AM

Jim, if you are afraid to enter into debate on this, please at least stop trying to hijack this thread for a platform where you will not be challenged.

n.b. I have never "been warned on numerous occasions (or any occasion)not to interfere with peoples' rights to discuss subjects in however they see fit."
You just made that up Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 04:57 AM

"Jim, if you want your tired old anti-Israel propaganda answered again"
Only "tired" is you are punch-drunk, as you must be by now, defending these monsters.
It is not your decision to make how we discuss the subject in hand - if we believe Israel is part of today's terrorism, we will say so - feel free not to take part
You have been warned on numerous occasions not to interfere with peoples' rights to discuss subjects in however they see fit
STOP TRYING TO MANIPULATE DISCUSSION BECAUSE YOU ARE BEING HAMMERED
"According to me Rag, no country is completely innocent."
But Israel is more innocent than everybody else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 04:55 AM

Re Gen. Jones testimony.
The first paragraph is his (and US) opinion.
The second paragraph is about the law of armed conflict and is fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 04:19 AM

Jim, if you want your tired old anti-Israel propaganda answered again, start a thread or refresh one of the dozens of old ones.

According to the Professor Israel are completely innocent !!

According to me Rag, no country is completely innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 03:22 AM

Can someone point out to Keith that he is the only one who puts up these subjects and then attempts to censor discussion on the reasons why they happen.
He really needs to know
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans grouch mask
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 02:26 AM

Excellent!

Wrong Musket Keith.

It makes the troika worthwhile when it results in your cross hairs getting wonky.

Jack. I wouldn't necessarily trust the numbers for that matter. There again, I doubt I would have read it in the first place mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 02:09 AM

"Majot General Mike Jones"
Mike Jones is an American General - America (with iy#ts 100plus vetoes) supports the Israelis - what else is he going to say?
"Maj. Gen. (ret) Michael Jones last active duty assignment was as the Chief of Staff, U.S. Central Command responsible for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and U.S. military activity in the Middle East and Southwest Asia. Previously he had served as the Director of Operations for U.S. Central Command."
Your quote comes from U.N. Watch, an pro-Israeli partisan group o behalf of Israel.
"Amnesty is a worthy charity.
It makes allegations not convictions."
Amnesty International is a highly respected non-partisan research group which bases its findings on careful research - it presents its findings on research - not opinions.
"In the field of international human rights organisations Amnesty has the longest history and broadest name recognition, and is believed by many to set standards for the movement as a whole"
"As I told Jim, I am not discussing Israel on this thread. "
You never "discuss" Israel anywhere - you appease its criminality.
Israel has as much of a part in the rise of Isis as does Britain and the west.
Israel is a terrorist state that should be facing trial for war crimes, instead it is trying to destroy the only international court in the world capable of bringing terrorists like Isis to trial - to protect itself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:14 PM

Now, wait a minute- wasn't "professor" what they called the piano player in a whore house?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:25 PM

Israeli ain't doing nothing wrong

According to the Professor Israel are completely innocent !!

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:16 PM

Professor, I was not entering into a discussion with you. I was merely illustrating your stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:51 PM

The U.S. of A is certainly the most dangerous place for USAsians to be, Bruce, if the highway fatality & murder statistics are any indication.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:06 PM

"So we don't know if it the most dangerous or not."

I wager that today the UK is the most dangerous place for Brits to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:51 PM

As I told Jim, I am not discussing Israel on this thread.

You just did, Keith - yet again. Go for three?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:40 PM

Rag, Amnesty is a worthy charity.
It makes allegations not convictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Gutless fukwit
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:10 PM

As a proportion, British nationals remain significantly more likely to die in the Philippines than in any other country. This is due to the large number of elderly British expats who live there    Daily Mail (as linked by Jack Campin.), my emphasis

So we don't know if it the most dangerous or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 02:33 PM

I was with you till you did a link to The Daily M*il Jack. Any credible source?

The relevant bit was just the list of numbers, which the Mail is unlikely to have made up. Their "Johnny Foreigner ripping off bereaved Brits" spin is beside the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 01:59 PM

Once again the professor demonstrates his utter lack of consideration and ultimately his stupidity. He is quite happy to discuss terrorism in Tunisia but will not sanction similar discussion about Israeli State atrocities.


Below is a link to Amnesty Internationals website

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/issues/Israel-and-Palestine?gclid=CKvXycWQ0cYCFSQIwwodLJAHuw

Read it and weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 12:35 PM

Mather,
Israeli war crimes are documented.

No they are not.
Just accusations by its enemies.
No convictions.

As I told Jim, I am not discussing Israel on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:54 AM

Or were you planning a trip and found you now have to go to a specialist insurer or settle for none ? Tough. That's business. Take it or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:49 AM

It's none of their goddam business where I want to go.

They are not stopping you. They are giving advice. It's their job. Just go if you want to.

Gutless fukwit yourself - easy to talk when you have no reponsibilities for anything to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans tabloids
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM

I was with you till you did a link to The Daily M*il Jack. Any credible source? Or even better, just say it and don't try to justify. Keith has got Mudcat to the point where everybody thinks it important to justify what they say, so Keith has less chance to shout Liar! He'd shout it if it didn't suit his agenda anyway, so why bother mate?

My brother is based in Manila. We meet for a few days drinking each year in Thailand rather than Philippines though. Not because of any danger, but because The Philippines are so bloody boring. Crap cuisine, crap beer.

Acheson. Israeli war crimes are documented. Crimes on neighbours where the word "war" isn't appropriate are also documented. By The UN, Amnesty International, The EU...

Do you think if you keep repeating it, people might believe it? We aren't all fucking religious you know. Some of us don't fall for bullshit even if you try to wear us down.

Nigel will be proud of you, so all is not lost eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:37 AM

gutless fuckwit wrote:
So are you suggesting Jack that despite their assessment the Foreign Office should have not given that advice?

Yes. It's none of their goddam business where I want to go.

This article suggests there are a lot more dangerous places for British tourists than Tunisia:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3086453/The-country-highest-proportion-British-deaths-Philippines-cost-17-000-repatriate-body.html

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:17 AM

"it does indicate the terrorists understand how to use fear to their advantage"

Which is why, in that situation, we call them terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:06 AM

The Government cannot win,no tourists means no body count,terrorists get the damage to the tourist trade.
Body count 50,terrorists still get damage to the tourist trade and the bonus body count as well.
The possibility of attack is sufficient,if it causes the desired result.
The score board may not have been the best way of making the point,it does indicate the terrorists understand how to use fear to their advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:30 AM

Israeli war crimes are wll documented

No they are not.
Please stop putting up the same tired old propaganda that has been refuted here so many times before.

I will not respond to any of it on this thread.
Start a new one if you want it refuted again, but this thread is about Tunisia and IS attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:28 AM

We will never know if another attack on British tourists would have happened in a couple of weeks time. So a proper score card is not possible.

What score would
Government one
Body count 50
give to the terrorists ?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:16 AM

The government are in a no win situation.
They have to issue the advice what ever damage it may do to the tourist trade in Tunisia.
Any damage serves the purposes of the terrorists.
Terrorists one.
Government nil.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:02 AM

So are you suggesting Jack that despite their assessment the Foreign Office should have not given that advice? That a UK Government department should have wilfully witheld an assessment of risk to British citizens for reasons of international politics?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 09:51 AM

I see the UK government is now telling tourists not to visit:

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/tunisia

which is granting ISIS exactly what they wanted. Helping wreck the Tunisian economy, thereby helping ISIS with recruitment of the unemployed and desperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 09:12 AM

"UNHRC Testimony by Major-General Mike Jones on the UN Gaza Report:
"Through the manipulation of public media access and innovative use of social media, we believe that Hamas exploited civilian causalities that it may not have caused but was certainly responsible for.
And this is an important distinction that I think we should make. I think it is very important to distinguish between what the cause of collateral damage is, and where the responsibility lies for the collateral damage.
So, for example, if as a military commander I locate my launch sites for artillery or rocket fire in a protected area -- knowing that the response of any force that is being attacked by that rocket fire is going to fire counter-battery fire -- then it may be that the counter-fire caused the damage, but the responsibility for the damage lies with the people who located it there in the first place.
That, I think, is a very important distinction. And what we saw was that, for their positioning, knowing that there would be civilian casualties and collateral damage, that was done in order to gain international sympathy... Hamas exploited the conflict to engage in a new type of conflict: it's commonly called lawfare."

Major-General Mike Jones (Ret.) at UNHRC

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:51 AM

"Does any decent democratic government,"
Is the slaughter of 550 plus children not an atrocity?
It is to most of us.
Has not both Britain and the U.S. including Obama, spoken out against what happened in Gaza last year?
Israeli war crimes are wll documented - we don't need politicians to tell us what they are - we watched the results of them nightly last year on television.
If Israel has nothing to hide, why is it refusing to face an e
nquiry of its behaviour and why is it trying to have the International Criminal Court disbanded, leaving the world without an International body to try War Criminals?
Jim Carroll

Irish Timess, this morning
ISRAEL ACCUSED OF'VIOLATING LAW'
HARRY Mcgee
A Norwegian trauma specialist and anaesthesiologist who has treated casualties in Gaza has accused Israel of "repetitious violations of international law".
Dr Mads Gilbert has written two books about his experiences, including the recently published. Night in Gaza. He is giv¬ing a presentation in the O'Reilly Theatre in Dublin tonight.
Speaking to The Irish Times, he said he had noticed that with each of the four Israeli assaults on Gaza - in 2006, 2009, 2012 and last year - the intensity and level of brutality had increased.
ASSAULT
He said five times more mortars were dropped on Gaza last year than in the assault in 2009. "It was extreme. The Israeli army used more armaments than that used by the US army to conquer Iraq," he said.
He said 142 families lost three or more members and 551 children died last year. The entire population was made subject to collective punishment and because it was a cap¬tive enclave, the population had no place to flee.
APARTHEID
"My big question as a doctor is how can a government and army get away with these repetitious violations of international law. Israeli immunity is some¬thing that should be tackled. This is not a ragtag collection of terrorists. The generals of its army should be taken to the International Criminal Court. "
Dr Gilbert claimed the ruling system in Israel was an apart¬heid one, with its West Bank wall segregating Palestinians. He said the totality of attacks on Israel was weak and meagre compared to its response. While saying he supported nei¬ther Hamas nor Fatah and con¬demned any civilian attacks, he contended Palestinians had the right to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:09 AM

Thank you Keith,
I did miss that, both mentions were small parts of very long and complex posts,it took some time to find them even when I knew they were there.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:06 AM

Have not compared the apostrophes...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:58 AM

Why is Keith posting as a guest to support himself

Cheap shot. I think you mean me, so he isnt'. I do different typos and grammer and much better logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:52 AM

Jim and greg both raised it on 1st July.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 06:54 AM

Why is Keith posting as a guest to support himself

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 06:47 AM

The GUEST in question found the answer useful though. Maybe best not to argue with Keith in a way that makes questions like that neccessary. I asked the question because I also miss-understood Dave's post, and then probably compounded the problem by mentioning language categories.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 06:33 AM

Unless I missed something further up this thread,I don't recall any mention of the Israel/Palestine conflict on this thread until your post at 09 Jul 15 - 05:05 PM when you answered a question by one of the guests.
You may be proved right on the matter of thread closure but I think you brought the subject up again.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 05:41 AM

just a horror of atrocities against civilians

Does any decent democratic government, such as we would choose to live under, accuse Israel of "atrocities against civilians?"
No.
There is a reason for that Jim.

Instead of pointing out a few Mudcat members, why not just say "most people"?

Most people possibly.
Most governments possibly.
Most democratic governments, no.
None in fact.

Your introduction of the subject of Israel again means this thread will now close when the mods wake up.
You win.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 05:07 AM

"You people do not want Israel's position expressed."
Israel has a worldwide voice in the form of of a US veto which prevents it from being hauled up in front of the International Court for war crimes
"Ideologues that you are"
Nor ideologues - humanitarians - nobody has ever put forward an "ideology" - just a horror of atrocities against civilians - particularly the 550 plus children murdered by Israelis last year,
Those are the facts we want expressed   
Interesting fact in this mornings Irish Times from a Swedish trauma specialist,based on his experiences in Gaza last year - Israel expended more ammunition at built up areas than the U.S. did during the war in Iraq - five times the amount they used in 2009 - all on civilians.
That is what makes me "cross" - Now why am I not surprised that it doesn't make you the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:17 AM

You people do not want Israel's position expressed.
No-one could accuse you of being liberal.

Ideologues that you are, you want no other views but yours expressed, or your own views questioned.
That is where you are taking Mudcat.

For balance I put Israel's side of the story.
It is funny to see how cross that makes you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans apples and honey
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:11 AM

Anti Israeli?

Where is that then Keith?

I have a pop at the aggressive Israeli government. But unlike you, I visit Israel often, have many friends there and like most Israelis, accuse the government of aggression.

Your shit spreader seems to be a well oiled machine. Instead of pointing out a few Mudcat members, why not just say "most people"?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:00 AM

And by the way, virtually everybody who has contributed on the subject of Palestine has vehemently opposed your arguments, not just the few you cite - there has never been support for israel's behaviour other than you, Terrytoon, and Bruce the Troll
Get it right.
Jim Carroll