BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:07 PM

Did or did not the BBC use the terms IS etc. without the use of 'self styled' or any other qualification in a news article dated 7 July? If so, what value their guidelines?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:07 PM

I repeat. Correspondents use whatever qualifications they feel necessary to clarify and show objectivity in their reporting.

It's in the document you show a link to.

Notice the words "try to avoid" for that matter.

You confuse editorial guidelines with corporate policy.

Possibly for a reason, but maybe through ignorance and lack of being able to understand what you are reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:06 PM

Independent, Thursday.
"In a response to a letter signed by 120 MPs demanding that the BBC stop using the term on the grounds it gives undue credibility to the Islamic extremists, Lord Hall of Birkenhead (Head of BBC) warned that using an alternative would be "pejorative".

But he accepted using the term 'Islamic State' on its own could be misleading and insisted the BBC would "redouble our efforts" to use caveats such as "so called Islamic State group"."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-bbc-must-be-fair-to-isis-head-of-broadcaster-rejects-calls-to-stop-using-term-islamic-state-10359806.html

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 01:59 PM

BBC Editorial Guidelines.
"Our policy is about achieving consistency and accuracy in our journalism. We recognise the existence and the reality of terrorism - at this point in the twenty first century we could hardly do otherwise. Moreover, we don't change the word "terrorist" when quoting other people, but we try to avoid the word ourselves; not because we are morally neutral towards terrorism, nor because we have any sympathy for the perpetrators of the inhuman atrocities which all too often we have to report, but because terrorism is a difficult and emotive subject with significant political overtones."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/page/guidance-reporting-terrorism-full

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:55 AM

It isn't BBC policy, neither editorially, stylistically or corporately at all. Correspondents use whatever qualifications they feel necessary to clarify and show objectivity in their reporting.

This is The BBC, not Murdochville.

Why do people have to make things up? Is it because their stance doesn't appeal to educated people of a reasonable disposition, that they have to say things to delay the point their credibility is blown away?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM

In answer to someone linking an article by the BBC referring to Islamic State, "IS" , "Isil" or "ISIS" eleven times , without once using a "so-called" or"self-styled" qualification, Keith answers with it is BBC policy to qualify "Islamic State" as "self-styled" or "so called"

You just could not make this stuff up. But as it my policy not to post on this thread, I have not just done it...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:39 AM

Could it be that the BBC refers to groups who carry out military style attacks as 'militants' and groups or individuals who carry out terror attacks (e.g. Tunsia beach massacre) as 'terrorists' ?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:07 AM

Mick, it is BBC policy to qualify "Islamic State" as "self-styled" or "so called" and never to refer to them as terrorists in its broadcasts.

I am surprised your google search did not reveal that they have recently been criticised for it by Cameron.

I can provide links if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: mayomick
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:40 AM

Keith,
Google "BBC IS" .You'll find links to any amount of articles where the Beeb refers to IS without describing the terrorist group as "self styled" or "so called" .
As an example, see this Auntie Beeb article from 7 July, which refers to Islamic State, "IS" , "Isil" or "ISIS" eleven times , without once using a "so-called" or"self-styled" qualification:

The US-led coalition fighting the Islamic State group is "intensifying" its campaign in northern Syria, President Barack Obama says.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33418021

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:43 PM

Yup, KoAH:

Muslims Bad.

Christians Good.

Now, go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:35 PM

Dave,
We also know full well that the jihadists are publicly portrayed in the mainstream media as evil.

I think we all agree that the IS jihadists are evil.
Right Dave?
BBC never refers to IS as Islamic State, but always qualifies it as "self styled" or "so called" or similar.

They will not refer to those jihadists as "extremists" or "terrorists" but only as "militants."

How would any of that encourage someone to go and join them?
How would it radicalise anyone?
Do you have any evidence or support from anyone else that it does?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 04:57 PM

OK, if nothing but to get Keith off the other thread I will, once only, go through my reasoning. The gist is here in Keith's comment

Dave, in reply to
"publicity that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet." you said,
"No it doesn't. It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? "

In his usual manner Keith has gone on (and on and on and on) here and in other threads that because I have not explained why I hold this opinion, it is not to be taken seriously. So here is that explanation.

Mainstream media has become a tool for manipulating the general public, used by governments and power brokers for their own ends. That is not just my opinion, it is that of many people including the afore mentioned Noam Chomsky. Because we are unaware of the extent or reasons of this manipulation there is nothing that comes out of the media that we can trust. We also know full well that the jihadists are publicly portrayed in the mainstream media as evil. Some people will take this as an invitation to hate them and all they stand for, including Islam. Other people, primarily young Muslims, suffer the consequences of this on a regular basis and this leads them to seek out alternative ways of fighting back. While the mainstream media may not be directly involved in recruitment they should take some responsibility for creating the conditions to make these young people take these desperate measures.

I know full well that Keith will say something along the lines of 'Ah - but they do not actually recruit' but, to be honest, I do not give a shit any more. Anyone with any sense knows full well what my comment was aimed at. Keith, on the other hand, will happily try to score points and 'win' nit-picking points while people die in their droves.

That is all I am prepared to say on the matter and I am now out of this thread. If you want to respond Keith, do it here stop stalking me on other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:44 PM

And paranoid about the right things, Bruce. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:29 PM

Hell, Dave, we're all paranoid. The only question is 'Are we paranoid enough?'

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 11:58 AM

You're welcome. The point being that the media assist in controlling everything. Whether that is what toy you should be desperate to buy your children or who we should hate is largely irrelevant. They are guilty of manipulating the public in numerous ways and none of us really understand the scope of it or who the puppet masters are. At the risk of seeming paranoid, I just do not trust them.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 11:42 AM

I read them a few years back, mostly to confirm my own thoughts on the matter. I do thank you for reminding me. For others who may be interested, here they are.

http://theinternationalcoalition.blogspot.ca/2011/07/noam-chomsky-top-10-media-manipulation_08.html

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:58 AM

Someone very clever once said that a sure sign of insanity is repeating the same actions and expecting different results. I am done discussing anything with Keith as it always ends up the same. He is not interested in anything but scoring points and 'winning'. Trouble is, no-one else understands the rules.

...so my last word on it.

I don't believe that for one second.

#, try reading Noam Chomsky's 10 strategies of manipulation by the media. It applies to everything they do. They no longer just report on news. They help to create the conditions for the stories they want to report.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:45 AM

I dream lots, Raggytash :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:36 AM

Guest#, you cannot seriously to expect KAOH to absorb and understand " Media manipulation is a series of related techniques in which partisans create an image or argument that favours their particular interests" and be able to apply it to the BBC, the Mail, Express or Telegraph etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:30 AM

"Dave suggested Googling "media manipulation."
It produced nothing on radicalisation or IS recruitment.
Anything else Dave?"

I just Googled "media manipulation."

Media manipulation is a series of related techniques in which partisans create an image or argument that favours their particular interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:17 AM

"You yourself claim that BBC reporting incites people to join IS."
No I do not - I say it is prt of a general disaffection felt by the present generation of Asian Youth in Britain who are no longer prepared to put up with what their parents had to.
The BBC is a small part of that - the gutter press is the current cup-holder in those stakes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:12 AM

The mods hate us having such spats, so my last word on it.

I dismissed Dave's opinion because he produced nothing to support it.
He still has not.

You yourself claim that BBC reporting incites people to join IS.

Give us some reason to believe that is an opinion based on knowledge, and not just a whim from an empty head.

There are people who follow this without posting.
They also want to know of there is anything to support that opinion.

Show them.

Dave suggested Googling "media manipulation."
It produced nothing on radicalisation or IS recruitment.
Anything else Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:02 AM

"No I do not."
Yes you do - constantly
"Do you think it is Jim?"
The BBC is largely a part of the establishment and therefore its mouthpiece - lots of information on this - from Charles Parker, to Jimmmy Saville to Greville Janner.
Is is part of the disaffection of Muslim youth in Britain - this would include other cultural groups. of course)
obody in their right (not politically) mind would take it as being independent - you could fill a library of books on the subject).
However, where it stands in the recruitment is a moot point - the honours for this goes hands down to betrayal by the West in the form of arms sales and appeasement to despotic states - ot to mention a media that regards all Muslims (even all immigrants) as 'The Enemy Within@
Bound to produce a negative reaction.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 09:20 AM

No I do not.
I asked to see what made him think BBC and mainstream media are a significant cause of IS recruitment, but he could not.

Do you think it is Jim?
Do you know why Dave does?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 09:14 AM

"You could so easily produce stuff, but you choose not to!!"
You make a habit of ignoring stuff that is produced so, what's the point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 08:15 AM

National one minute silence today to remember the victims.
Prayers were said during Friday Prayers in mosques.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 08:03 AM

Dave, in reply to
"publicity that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet." you said,

"No it doesn't. It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? "

So, you did express the opinion that reporting in the media, and specifically the BBC, incites people to join IS.

I do not twist anything, you just do not think before you type.

Yes, I can Keith. But I am not prepared to discuss with you

Oh yes.
You could so easily produce stuff, but you choose not to!!

Is it only me your opinion was directed at?
Does no-one get to see why you believe that?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:19 AM

As another example of your manipulation of what was said. Your question was Do you think that this massacre, Charlie Hebdo etc, should be censored from the news? has now become Dave, BBC was the only media you specifically indicted. I asked if they should censor news about terrorism A question about media in general has become specifically about the BBC. Is it any wonder that no-one wants to play your game any more? You and the media are perfectly suited.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:12 AM

Yes, I can Keith. But I am not prepared to discuss with you as you distort anything that has been said as you have just shown. I realised that playing any game with a cheat is pointless. If you want to look anything up yourself, use the phrase media manipulation in a Google search. At least that way you will not throw any link I provide back as being unacceptable/too left wing/too right wing/not mainstream/not saying what you want (delete as appropriate)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:37 AM

Dave, BBC was the only media you specifically indicted.
I asked if they should censor news about terrorism, and you replied,
" I think it should just be reported on factually and not used to make people hate each other."
I took that to be an accusation.

If anyone wants an opinion to be given serious consideration, they need to support it with something.
I always do.
Can you support your opinion or not?

Musket, you may feel yourself qualified to judge whether someone can be described as a Muslim or not.
I claim no such ability.

IS believe themselves to be Muslims, and at war with non-Muslims and Shia Muslims.

Mainstream Muslims reject them.

Why is it relevant?
I have never, ever suggested that their religion is significant.
Why did YOU bring it up Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans ginger nuts
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:25 AM

Yeah, and priests that fuck children are radicalised christians whilst the old lass next door is an unradicalised christian.

Any idea how stupid your comment was?

Obviously not.
Bliss eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:18 AM

An opinion based on no actual knowledge is just a whim from an empty head and deserves to be dismissed.
Please share with us the knowledge that your opinion is based on.

There is absolutely no point, Keith. As we have all often seen you will twist and turn what I say to suit whatever your agenda is. Pretty much like you implying that I said that BBC reporting is "used to make people hate each other." when I have said no such thing.

And your suggestion that my opinion is nothing more than a ''whim from an empty head' is both derogatory and confrontational. Then you complain that other people get your threads closed.

Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 05:40 AM

They aren't Muslims Keith.

They are all Muslims who have been radicalised.
Unradicalised Muslims say their behaviour is unIslamic.
They say that the unradicalised are unislamic.

It is a subjective judgement whether they are Muslims or not, and I have no opinion on it.

Those at risk of being radicalised Jihadists are Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 05:28 AM

Dave,
Yes I have stuff to support my opinion but I don't think you are really interested in anything I say.

I am interested.
That is why I asked.
I have never seen anything to suggest that BBC or mainstream media provides publicity that causes radicalisation, or that BBC reporting is "used to make people hate each other."

An opinion based on no actual knowledge is just a whim from an empty head and deserves to be dismissed.
Please share with us the knowledge that your opinion is based on.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:31 AM

# hit the nail on the head there, I think. Tunisia is one of the only places where the Arab Spring to some extent paid off - and it is trying to move towards liberal democracy. Attacking its tourist industry is a sure fire way of undermining this. Then add into the mix poverty, massive youth unemployment and austerity - the sorts of conditions in which extremist groups thrive.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 12:54 PM

I think you are right, #, and we also need to know the relationship of the media owners, the governments and who is actually running what!

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 12:20 PM

Especially important when said papers/media are owned/run by turds with legs like Rupert Murdoch & Roger Ailes.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 11:52 AM

". . . mainstream media setting people against each other."

That is an important statement. However, equally important is to determine who owns the papers/media and see what further agendas they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 11:45 AM

Young British Muslims who believe they are seen as nobodies in their own country are bound to be attracted by the idea of being heroes elsewhere.

Young people of any religion and nationality who believe they are badly treated will always be attracted by the thought of someone treating them with respect. That the author of the piece stating that being British or Muslim makes them different to the millions of other young people that have gone before them is an example of mainstream media setting people against each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:49 AM

Tunisia is majority Sunni. The country is very tolerant of any and all religions (at this time), so I don't see the attacks as aimed specifically at British subjects. It was likely aimed at interrupting tourism which accounts for about 7% of the GDP. The Tunisian government separates religion and state although it does insist its leader be Muslim, although which faction isn't mandated.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans ginger nuts
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:34 AM

Ah.. Did you notice the word "Muslim" come into it?

Oh, it was a quote from a newspaper, silly me. You can't hold the person posting to account if they are quoting.. I should have known.

They aren't Muslims Keith. They are fanatics who have been brainwashed by evil old men who tell them it is a Muslim thing. Plenty of people claim Jesus told them to shoplift, rape, fiddle their taxes.

A bit like the Pope hiding paedophiles in his employment, because perverting the course of justice must be a Christian thing.

Same weird logic.

Anyway, at a wedding last Saturday, I couldn't help noticing a poster in the entrance for children to join their "Young Crusader" club, luring them with the er.. promise of adventure.

It's this linking terrorists with my friends and colleagues who happen to be Muslim that gets my halal goat. Far more criminals behind bars who claim to be christians, so why keep vilifying good people Keith?

Keith?

For the benefit of giving a view, I feel it would be naive to say that not accepting "western values" whatever that means is a route towards supporting murder. It is also naive to say that one religion supports murdering infidels more than another for that matter. All the main ones have a history to be ashamed of.

Most UK people who happen to be Muslim must get fed up with politicians saying they should do more to prevent kids doing awful things. If someone said to me, "You go to pubs, you live near one and you have a cultural need to laugh and joke with friends in them, so what are you doing about binge drinking, vomit in the street and liver failure in younger people?

I'd be at a loss as to what to do.

A bit like my ex secretary Tahir. He tells me how his Imam preaches all the time against ISIS ideals, happily tells his congregation of how he reported an issue to the police once and encourages people to do the same. Ditto his father's Imam in a different town etc etc.

Yes, there are many aspects of religion I can't understand and don't want to. Misogyny, homophobia, instilling a sense of guilt, creating multi tier society and perpetuating controls on communities.

But I no more see today's terrorism as a reason to suspect Muslims any more than seeing atrocities in the name of Jesus a reason to round up Christians.

Given time, both will be footnotes of history. Sadly, it will take a few generations but looking at the fall of christianity in developed countries, it won't take forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:16 AM

"Jim, I have looked through you posts on this thread and agree."
Do not accuse me of it again - it is the type of thing that gets threads closed and you certainly indulge in it yourself
"I posted the Daily Mirror quote to show that there had been such a suggestion."
That report, as I have pointed out, was produced by somebody who is paid to say that sort of thing.
I'm quite sure any rag is capable of producing that sort of garbage.
This is about killing human beings - not 'our own'
Which leaves the rest of your claims hanging.
The idea that young Muslims are taking their cue from the internet is both stupid and dangerous.
Unless the root causes of the rise of Isis are dealt with honestly, they will continue to make the running.
Isis is not a fad - it is the horrific consequence of the cynical nature of The Great Powers to have their own favourite terrorists and to indulge in terrorism themselves when it suits.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:09 AM

It doesn't matter whether I am on my own or not. It is still an opinion and opinions are what you asked for. To dismiss one out of hand is rude and I suspect you are not really interested in the opinions of other people. Just those that agree with yours.

No I do not want some stuff to read. I have enough to do as it is.

Yes I have stuff to support my opinion but I don't think you are really interested in anything I say.

No, I don't think anything should be censored from the news. I think it should just be reported on factually and not used to make people hate each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:51 AM

Reuters last October,

"The crucial battleground in the radicalisation struggle is the Internet, and it's a fight the authorities have been losing.

Britain has a police unit dedicated to dealing with extremist material on the Internet and British Home Secretary Theresa May recently said authorities had removed more than 30,000 pieces of terrorist material since the start of the year.

But the lack of any international agreement means British police can only deal with content hosted in Britain. Material that is taken down will often crop up again elsewhere."

"They are motivated by images they have seen online, or are lured by the promise of adventure."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:42 AM

Guardian last year,
"Young British Muslims who believe they are seen as nobodies in their own country are bound to be attracted by the idea of being heroes elsewhere. And once inside the bubble of an online network dedicated to the same cause, all their pernicious beliefs are reinforced."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:37 AM

Jim, I have looked through you posts on this thread and agree.
No personal abuse.
Please try to keep it up this time.

Jim, you said, "As far as I know, there has been no suggestion that they were killed because of where they came from."

I posted the Daily Mirror quote to show that there had been such a suggestion.
That is all.

Dave, I have read a lot of opinion about how people are radicalised.
You are on your own in suggesting that BBC and mainstream media play any role at all.
Such people do not believe what the media says about IS.

Would you like some stuff to read?
Have you anything at all that supports your idea?
Do you think that this massacre, Charlie Hebdo etc, should be censored from the news?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:25 AM

"Jim, the Mirror is a Labour paper."
So what - there's no difference between Labour and Tory nowadadys
Not the point anyway
Your "expert" has been singled out as one of those 'journalists' who is paid to produce 'news' with a pre-decided slant - that is the essence of the link you were given - the Sun was mentioned as one of the newspapers which require such reporting .
Far from being an 'expert' he is a hack - wouldn't matter if he was accepted by 'The Morning Star' or 'Marxism Today' - he and his fellow hacks are paid to manipulate the news.
As a journalist, what he writes is unreliable - you, of all people, can't possible expect anybody to accept him.
Now - that abuse I am supposed to be guilty of...!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:10 AM

You people dismiss anything appearing...

Have you not read anything I posted, Keith?

I am interested in opinions about how to stop them doing it again.

Yet when I ventured the opinion that if we denied them publicity it would help to stop it, you dismissed that out of hand. Is it becuase I am one of 'you people' and you dismiss everything we say?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:58 AM

Jim, the Mirror is a Labour paper.
Wiki, "On 4 May 2010, the newspaper printed a picture of Conservative Leader David Cameron with a giant red cross through his face. The headline read "How to stop him" in reference to the general election two days later, thus confirming the Daily Mirror's Labour allegiance. "
" The Daily Mirror was the only leading national newspaper to remain loyal to Labour and Gordon Brown at a time when opinion polls showed them on course for their worst election result since 1983"

Musket,
So, where do opinions come into it?

I am interested in opinions about how to stop them doing it again.

What is a "left wing" newspaper? Why give it credence versus any other rag?

You people dismiss anything appearing in Right of centre papers like Telegraph and Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:56 AM

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia