BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits

Subject: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 02:38 PM

I'm not taking TOO much effort to hide who I am, but, mods, please do not unmask me as the hosts of the party I am about to discuss might turn up here.

So, the swmbo and I have been invited to a party. In the 1920s, she would not have been invited, because she is of Afrikan descent. In the 1940s, if she were male, she would not have been invited because a "friend of Dorothy" was only invited to the most avant-garde places.

This is different - a number involved with the party are strict vegetarians, and I have been told that it's very simple, no dead animals on the premises.

Well, I'm not trying to force others to eat meat or fish. And I've been to and attended a number of BBQs that provide a separate BBQ for vegetarians or observes of halal or kosher ritual. I've been to one BBQ where there was in attendance a chap so allergic to fish that the table cloth on which I prepared and served a fish dish (well away from the chap in question) had to be burned after use.

Does "No dead animals on the premises" strike anyone as a bit intolerant?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 02:45 PM

Yes.

Simply inform them that you will have both vegan dishes and meat dishes, and you'll not be mixing the two at the same table. Put the ball back in their court as to whether or not they're coming.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:12 PM

It seems like it's the party hosts who are the vegetarians.

I don't think you have any right to disgust them. Just stay away if you can't go a whole evening without meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:57 PM

I re-read the OP thanks to Jack's comment. Seems you have two choices.

1) Extend regrets, etc, etc.
2) Bring vegan food to cook and add cheese to it, unless they are.
'no animals or animal products' people in which case forget the cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:03 PM

I think it might be hard not to swat mosquitoes...

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:13 PM

I'm easily confused, so perhaps you could explain a couple of points:

So, the swmbo and I ...   What does "swmbo" srtand for?

If the hosts are providing the food, they can limit it to vegetarian/vegan by what they choose to serve. Why do they have to specify "no dead animals"? Are they expecting guests to bring their own?

Does the "no dead animals" restriction stretch to leather shoes and the like?

Finally, I can follow the discussion of eating habits, but where does the second half of the thread title come in?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:18 PM

You can't make it through one evening without eating meat? A lot of vegetarian fare is pretty tasty.
Another option is to eat before hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:27 PM

If they specified no dead animals, and you want to be a real prick, bring oysters.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:29 PM

I take it, then, that this is a potluck party where guests bring food?

I've been married to an off-and-on vegan for 13 years, so I'm kinda used to this stuff. I've been to potluck parties where everybody has to bring a full list of ingredients of their contributions.

Don't think I've ever been to a party where animal products are completely forbidden, but I have been overwhelmed by the food fussiness at some gatherings I've attended. I stay away from the ones that make me really feel uncomfortable.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:34 PM

Doug, I think swmbo means 'she who must be obeyed'. I may be corrected on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 06:08 PM

Thanks #

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 06:25 PM

Imagine the prohibition was not as to food, but as to sex. Would the OP be expected not to kiss is G/F, because it might disgust? Would a gay attendee be expected not to kiss same sex partner because it might disgust?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: meself
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 06:38 PM

Who or what is a 'friend of Dorothy' (a little dog? a tin man? a scarecrow? a cowardly lion?) and why?

I think swmbo is 'she who must be omnivorous', isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 06:47 PM

'she who must be omnivorous' Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaa!

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 06:58 PM

IMHO, if you're going to host a potluck, you accept whatever people are willing to contribute. If a dish is not part of your diet, don't eat it. If you want to control the menu, provide the food yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:00 PM

Funnily enough, I have no friends by the name of Dorothy, but the label seems to be attached.

One of the other Muskets once pointed out, when a lady started getting rather attached to me at a conference, that I "bowl from the pavilion end."

Regarding the op. Respecting cultures is a two way thing. We have utensils, plates, pans, a BBQ etc that is only used for halal meat as we have many Muslim friends. That said, I am aware of course that those who take their faith seriously have an inbuilt problem with Kris and I being a gay couple, but respect being what it is, they don't preach religious bigotry as our guests and we don't, despite the fantasy of one particular nasty sod on Mudcat and his lies, try to fuck them.

Being offended can be offensive if you don't keep your trap shut...

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:15 PM

I have been to MANY gatherings where it was stated up front that all food was to be vegetarian. The KlezNorth weekend klezmer event does it because they can expect a fair number of the attendees to be Jewish of various degrees of observant-ness, as well as some actual vegetarians, so it's a simple compromise. (Doesn't help me a lot as my religion involves continual sacrifices to a cardiac stent and a wheat allergy). You would find the same at events where you might expect a number of Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or Rastas.

This is not some new fad, it's been routine at least since the 1970s. Most people have had most of a lifetime to get used to the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:26 PM

I eat anything and everything except for apple sauce, which is thoroughly disgusting. Because there is that one thing I can't stomach, I understand vegetarians who say they can't stand the texture of meat, etc,. but vegetarians of any other sort are as deluded as God-botherers. Vegetarianism on the grounds of being nasty to animals is entirely irrational. The whole of nature is predicated on animals eating animals at certain points in food chains. But as we're creatures of conscience it's entirely appropriate that we pay attention to animal welfare. I want all my meat to be free-range, preferably organic if I can afford it. But, at the end of the day, for two, add 300g orecchiette pasta to a large pan of boiling salted water. It will need 11-13 minutes. Meanwhile, heat a big glug or two of olive oil in a pan and add two cloves of finely-chopped garlic (not crushed), 10 halved cherry tomatoes, a chopped up chilli and a big handful of chopped fresh parsley. Salt and pepper to taste. Simmer. Two minutes before the pasta is al dente, throw two large handfuls of broccoli florets (tenderstem for choice, but hey) into the pasta pan. When the pasta is al dente, drain it but retain a cupful of the pasta water. Mix the tomato sauce in with the pasta/broccoli mix, see whether you think it needs to be slackened with a bit of the pasta water (it does) and serve in big bowls. There you go. As vegan as can be. By far the most satisfying vegan dish I've ever made, and I make this one a lot. I have to keep stuffing my luggage with orecchiette every time I come back from Italy. Tonight we had tuna with capers, parsley, garlic and creme fraiche with gigli pasta. Tomorrow it's home-made mackerel pate with ciabatta, Westcountry Brie, Montagnolo affine and Bath Blue cheeses and some lovely Sicilian olives.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: meself
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:33 PM

I insist that my food be organic and my sex orgasmic. Or is it the other way around ... ? Anyway - I insist!

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Scabbie dug
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:16 PM

Let's get this straight. You and your partner who would appear to be a black lesbian have been invited to a meal by vegetarian friends. Go there and enjoy the meal, or if you do not feel that you would be comfortable there,
politely decline the invitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Janie
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:30 PM

Intolerant would be "If you are a meat eater, you are not welcomed in my house, even if you don't bring meat to eat."

Intolerant would be "If you smoke cigarettes, you can never be my friend, even if you never smoke cigarettes around me, always use mouthwash and keep a set of clothes on hand such that I never get even a whiff of tobacco smoke when I am around you."

There is a difference between setting clear boundaries about what is OK or not OK on one's own turf and being intolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:35 PM

meself asked, "Who or what is a 'friend of Dorothy' . . ."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friend_of_Dorothy

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: meself
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:43 PM

Ah! Many thanks. I think I'll have the OP figured out within the next few hours .....

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:45 PM

When you ace that, please let the rest of us know :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:06 AM

Maybe when the host who is giving the party discovers this thread he or she will explain it.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:22 AM

I totally understand it.

We no longer say "you cannot kiss your girlfriend in my house, because she's black and that offends me".

We no longer say "You cannot kiss your same sex partner in my house, because that offends me".

But it is apparently (judging by those above who seem almost to get it) in Mudland normal to say "You can't eat any dead animal in my house, because that offends me".

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:27 AM

It's been normal in the entire civilized world for decades. Live with it. It's no different from saying a gathering is going to be alcohol-free, have you never been to an event like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 08:23 AM

People know better than to invite me to alcohol-free events. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars laink
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 08:27 AM

Right on, janie !.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: meself
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:31 PM

Okay, I think I've got it - if I go to this party, I can kiss a vegetable, but not a dead animal ....

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 01:24 PM

What have vegetables done to deserve that - being kissed by a complete stranger?

Disgusting! You should be locked up.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: meself
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 01:34 PM

I am!

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 01:38 PM

Excellent - can I join you?

I just fancy a nice fat, juicy cucumber...

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 02:22 PM

No comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 02:32 PM

It's no different from saying a gathering is going to be alcohol-free

It is completely different. Alcohol-free parties allow dry ex-alcoholics to remain unrecognized, which I think is a flawless moral motive. Inviting for "a vegetarian gathering" or "bring your own vegetarian food" is less well justified, but can be accepted.

The term "dead animals" amounts to a targeted insult, comparable to derogatory names for ethnic backgrounds or sexual orientations.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 02:33 PM

That was I - forgot to sign, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 11:20 PM

It's not a targeted insult if you have a sense of humor, Grishka.

As to the rest, I am not sure what the sexual orientation and ethnicity of party guests in the 1920s and 1940s has to do with not bringing a dead animal to a party in 2015.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 02:34 AM

Vegetarians seem inclined to force their own eating habits on others, if I invite any of several vegetarian friends to eat at my home, I wouldn't dream of offering them meat, but if I go to eat at their houses I am forced to eat by their rules ie. strictly vegetarian, no consideration there at all.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 03:01 AM

Not sure I follow that, Dave. Take another example. You are a smoker, they aren't. When they visit you, out of consideration you choose not to smoke while they are around.   Surely you are not implying they should smoke if you visit them? Or even, necessarily, allow you to smoke in their house when cigarette smells could linger there for days?

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 03:58 AM

The analogy between smoking and vegetarianism isn't quite right, I'm afraid.

What we eat affects us, healthwise, individually. Neither of us will physically affect the other if I eat beef and you eat a nut roast - but both of us will feel the effects of smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 04:08 AM

It was an example. What I was trying to get at is that it is not necessarily an 'equal exchange' of consideration. I have no real knowledge of why these particular vegetarians are so, but one possibility is that they see a moral objection to eating meat. If so, for the meat eater to have a vegetarian meal when they visit has no moral cost to him, but that would not be the case when he visits them and expected meat. so it is not an equal exchange of consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 04:26 AM

Stim, if all those invited share the joke, it's fine - but then they would not ask Mudcat. Good pals sometimes call each other, or themselves, by names that would normally be considered derogatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 05:12 AM

Would it be acceptable for an atheist with atheist friends to insist that no religious symbols be worn?

Alternatively, what if a believer, with many friends who believe, demands that everyone should say grace before they eat?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 05:19 AM

Alternatively, what if a believer, with many friends who believe, demands that everyone should say grace before they eat?

Well, one answer to that in the UK is that similar things happen more often than you might think. Parliament, for example, opens every day with prayers (Christian.) While attendance is voluntary, there are less seats than MPs, so if you want to sit down on busy days ...

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 10:18 AM

If I'm invited to a "do " with strings attached, and I don't like the strings, I don't go.

It's really that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 01:26 PM

But with the veggie v meateater argument, if a M/E goes to a veggie house they eat veg. When they eat at home they still eat veg (usually), but with added meat.

So going to a veggie home doesn't mean that you've got to eat something that you don't normally eat.

But at the end of the day, if you're not happy with what you're being invited to, then don't go.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 02:03 PM

A couple of points.

There are several reasons for being a vegetarian/vegan:

1)Perceived health issues (actual or not)... fairly reasonable.
2)Environmental reasons: supply & demand of meat.... also reasonable in some places.
3)Financial issues: growing a garden is much cheaper than buying meat. If you are a hunter, it's different.
4)Cultural: The world being what it is, some people eat things that others find 'odd'... I would have great difficulty with roasted squirrel brains, even though I don't object morally.
5)BBES...."Big Brown Eyes Syndrome": the usual basis for 'moral' reasons. Some of this is religious (Jainism and others), some just generalized objection to killing other creatures, which varies up & down the scale according to whether creatures are warm-blooded...etc.

Now, to these I ask, when did the religious/moral concerns arise? After all, we are descended from omnivores for at least hundreds of thousands of years, it not millions. I doubt our 500th great-grandparents thought much about it- they were hungry, they ate what they could find. Some eventually did little ceremonies to honor & thank the 'spirits' of their meals... but they ate 'em anyway.
I suspect that as humans' ability to rationalize & imagine stuff like 'souls' developed, so did 'concern' for animals.

I do know that at several folk gatherings I attend each year, the problems of the hosting kitchen staff are more than I would want to take on. To the natural allergies & other medical concerns, we have the whole range of religious & BBES and just plain finicky eaters. I know several people who have such a level of concern that they just bring their own meals.

If I were invited to a gathering that sounded like I would not find anything to eat, and was not allowed to even bring my own, I would simply find a convenient excuse to not attend.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 03:04 PM

If the OP feels the need to resort to moral casuistry over the situation, they are so far out of sympathy with the hosts' value system that maybe they should just have nothing to do with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 15 - 06:16 PM

Would it be acceptable for an atheist with atheist friends to insist that no religious symbols be worn?

Turn that on its head. Would any Christian you know, in deference to the atheists they knew were present, refrain from wearing their crucifix necklaces or fish symbols on their cars? Do any Christians you know insist on the removal of wayside pulpits or external crosses from churches in deference to the many atheists or people of non-Christian religions who would otherwise have to see them? No, thought not.

Alternatively, what if a believer, with many friends who believe, demands that everyone should say grace before they eat?

This is not hypothetical. It has happened to me on a number of occasions. It is an ignorant and insufferable thing to do. Unfortunately, unlike atheists, who have no beliefs but lots of doubts, many Christians and members of several other religions have this delusion that their beliefs are incontrovertible truths and that the rest of us should put up with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Eating habits cf Sexual habits
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 04:02 AM

As the vegetarians are probably opposed to meat on the basis that they see meat eating as unnecessarily 'cruel' rather than simply aesthetically 'disgusting' their objection is I would imagine an ethical one.

I think asking you not to bring meat into their home, is more akin to your guests asking you not to hit your girlfriend in their home (ethical objection) rather than asking you not to kiss her (aesthetic).