BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???

Subject: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Aug 15 - 02:17 PM

There is a problem with these, scanners in peoples pockets, you don't know you are being scammed. The credit card company have it all under control, or more specifically, the underwrite the loss and deal with the fraud. BUT How much hassle does the card holder have to go through before they realise they have been scammed?

1) Anyone got any experience with RFID/NFC pockets/wallets?
I bought this pocket on E-Bay, and it will arrive in a couple of days.

I was told (on-line of course) that the new Credit card would arrive within 2 months dated 1 month before expiry of the current one! Nice one! It is now two weeks before I will need the new one (think Aug BH) and there isn't one yet!
I had to insist (twice) that they tell me if it had NFC or not. Finally they actually answered the question, and there there are two options - take it or leave . I may yet leave.

2) Any one know of a UK Credit card company that gives you the choice NFC/non NFC?

The company are called Smile. You wouldn't credit it! It didn't make me Smile!

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Aug 15 - 05:22 PM

PDF from an Austrian lab reporting on cloning NFC cards a heavy read but basically the message is that the "issuer" ie the company that puts the Logo on the card (Not Mastercard or Visa) have choices that can compromise the level of security. Choices that might reflect the cost of making the card that you don't see. A clone of your card might be possible to be made which would work until you used your card again, simple checks for discrepancies are not always made by the "issuer".

I haven't found a report on how easy it is to rub up against you, the scanner would require batteries but embedded in a wall at pocket height? They only have to get within 4cm of your wallet or purse.

And just in case - be careful leaning over the bar whilst drunk too.

Years ago I bought petrol and one packet of crisps, the ticket listed 3 items. When I queried it the guy said he must have picked up his can of Coke and inadvertently passed it past the scanner. Yea, once inadvertently. Then every time people bought several items thereafter! I nearly shopped him and curiously the filling station changed owners a year later.

I think the credit card companies hope that a pattern emerges and there is a short wait for payment to the alleged vendor. But human nature .............................

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Aug 15 - 05:27 PM

As I understand it (and I probably don't) RFID is an older form of chip technology, EMV is the current form, and NFC is an entirely different thing involving making payments with your smart phone. More here, but this is a US-centric article and may not be completely relevant to your situation: link

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Aug 15 - 06:04 PM

The Co-Op bank gives you the option of not having a contactless card. I asked for that and got it.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 15 - 09:54 PM

I read a lot of reviews before settling on this variety of RIFD sleeve to tuck my credit cards into in my wallet. They are snug enough so you can slide the card and the sleeve into the slot in your wallet. Some of them are a bit too large. Others don't seem to work (you can read about people testing them in the reviews). For xmas last year I gave all of my family members several of these and I gave each of the kids a passport-sized sleeve since those now apparently also have scannable chips or strips.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 02:05 AM

What does NFC actually stand for in this context? Googling did not furnish me with an answer to this question.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket laughing
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 02:51 AM

Aye, and just to be safe, wear tin foil on your head in case their scanners can get your PIN number from your brain.

NFC? Got it on my Apple Watch. I have to be just about touching the card machine for it to register. The completely different system on my credit cards is about as strong. To be fair, I keep my Oyster Card apart but that's because two or more signals means none register, it doesn't mean they all register.

Next.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 04:09 AM

FWIW
Near Field Communication & Radio Frequency IDentification.
NFC is different from RFID in the freqencies they use, data rates, and the distance they are designed to work at. RFID is dumb ie it cannot do more than give informatiom. NFC can change the information and even for credit cards does to alter the encoding key over several million differs (though "issuers" can simplify that to 1000 for speed and cost).

EMV is a protocol, "magnetic stripe" is the other. ie what bytes are sent, in what format. The PDF I linked to used those two and found a way of using the older one (stripe) to make it easy to fraud. The issuers in several occasions did not check that an anomalous combination had been used and hence authorised the false payment.

& Would you believe it Coop Bank issue non NFC and Smile don't? Now who are Smile? he said rhetorically.

Don't be too cocky, some clothes have RFID in them and don't get taken out. So as long as the washing process has not distressed it, the RFID can be read in any store you go into and your movements and potential buying habits tracked. And RFID readers used for tracking do not have to "not" read in the face of more than one reply. In fact the more info they can glean the better.
If you thought this was a good thing, try searching for a website you know exists with search terms that are ambiguous. The sites that paid for the Page Ranking get to the top and any specific filter you chose (+) is ignored. viz Amazon is always there near the top, and it turns out that Amazon ignores (always) +red ! And +UK IME. So how should we rank Larry Page?
If this info can be linked to you (and it can if you buy on line and in store withe the same organisation). Adverts in store, on line & on your internet TV feed maybe all favour those wot pay for the information. Choice? You buy into it, I want what I want, not just what they have.

Lets face it, there are Apps you can install on your smart phone that give you marginally useful information whilst tracking you too. It is re-assuring (not) to know that Apple users have the same cavalier attitude to security they have with their Macs. The criminals love complacency.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 05:25 AM

how to disable the NFC without affecting Chip & PIN opens in another tab/window, this thread will still be open.

I particularly like the "torch & drill" wheeze. My Visa Debit card (different bank) came without NFC & without asking for that. The card is silvered so the torch needs a bit of masking to avoid blinding you and it only works in the dark, the Smile card is easier to shine a light through.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 10:14 AM

From:MGM·Lion- PM
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 02:05 AM

What does NFC actually stand for in this context? Googling did not furnish me with an answer to this question.

No F****** Clue

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,😇
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 10:59 AM

Just hope your wives don't have access to the same sophisticated tracking technology....

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 12:19 PM

Don't forget your tinfoil hat

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,😇
Date: 13 Aug 15 - 12:31 PM

When it comes to cards in trouser pockets - do metal hip joints offer much protection ?????

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket beaming
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 02:01 AM

So any road, who wants to track weird beards in the first place? Your fair-isle sweater marks you out in the crowd to begin with, your socks have imprints of sandal permanently marking them and when you stick your finger in your ear and take a deep breath, tracking you is the last thing on anybody's mind.

Meanwhile, Apple Pay on my watch means, unlike cards, that my card details aren't shared with the shop at all.

Like I said, either system is weak field and you have to just about molest the card machine for it to register.

There again, Mrs Musket bought me a new wallet recently, bought for the style and quality. Turns out the embossed logo on it means it has stainless steel shielding. So there you go, seems we have subliminal paranoia after all.

🐮💩

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 02:16 AM

Mrs. Fenswoman has a Jack Wolfskin bag that is similarly shielded. She had no idea until she checked what the little symbol on it means.

I have a metal card-case which I bought simply for its handy size to fit my pocket. It's shielded too, apparently.

I have a tin-foil hat on order.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket smiling
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 08:16 AM

Look at it this way. Nobody can beam into my carbon fibre guitar. George left a bit of glue showing on the rear scalloped brace on yours according to the spy app on my phone.

😎

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 08:41 AM

Is this face bovvered?

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: BobL
Date: 16 Aug 15 - 06:10 PM

There is a useful article on this subject in the August issue of "Which?" magazine. Conclusions:

- If you're making a contactless payment, it's best to take the card out and touch it to the reader, rather than just waving your wallet or handbag over it.

- A suitably-equipped ID thief could, in theory at least, read a card number and expiry date electronically, but not the cardholder's name or the security code.

- Wrapping a card in foil will keep it from being read, either accidentally or fraudulently.

Incidentally if your bank is like mine, you have to enable the card, using the PIN, before it can be used for contactless payments. If you don't want it enabled, you don't have to.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket raiding piggy bank
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 03:20 AM

To be fair BWM, the £20 limit on Apple Pay precludes the fan fret on sale near to where I have to be on business this week.

That said....

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 04:58 AM

Sorry Musket, I forgot to add the smiley face to my last post! Apologies if I sounded as though I had a monk on! 👍😎

I'm not as adventurous as you where guitars are concerned - I'm a bit of a traditionalist, so neither carbon-fibre nor fan-frets appeal. But hey, it's each to his own (and what his credit card limit can stand, of course!). If that guitar is calling, I say, "Go for it!" - you only live once, and this life isn't a practice run! 👍😎

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 05:43 AM


Don't forget your tinfoil hat just like a troll!
The hat has to be made of mumetal foil. Tin ain't magnetic don't ya know. What do trolls know anyway.

ITurns out the embossed logo on it means it has stainless steel shielding
well if it is cheap stainless steel there is a chance the metal is magnetic. But if it is austinetic stainless you have been had PAL!

AND - Apple Pay doesn't mark you out in the crowd? Geeze!

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket grinning
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 09:03 AM

Funny, I am reading a post by Mr Red that quotes me, yet I genuinely have no idea whatsoever what he is wittering on about.

Although in the interest of accuracy - tin foil is a low quality alloy, non ferrous.

You can't be had for something you didn't ask for.

Apple Pay doesn't mean wearing a T shirt saying you can use it to pay for goods or services. It means you are one of, according to The FT last week, over a million UK people and rising. Me? I see it as a far safer, security enhanced yet convenient way of paying for, to date, coffee.

I'd wear a tin foil hat anyway if I were you Mr Red, having read your earlier paranoia. Look at it this way, it may be non ferrous but you seem the sort who would fit nicely into the 20% placebo market. Mind over matter and all that.

Hey BWM! Uncle George makes a few nice fan frets but this is an Avian The American Guitar Company in Fulham have in stock and it is ruddy tempting. Bloody cheap at the price too, listening to a few YouTube reviews.🎸🎸🎶🎶🎵🎵🎸🎸

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 11:40 AM

Aaaahh, I thought you were looking at a Lowden!
The alternative would be to bend Albert's ear and get him to build one?
No point knowing these craftsmen if you don't use their services! 😎

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket grinning
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 12:35 PM

Oh aye, I can see Albert digging out his school protractor.... Lengths of string across the garage workshop to the point of convergence (outside near his tomatoes, thinking on as to where the bench is.)

Yeah. It isn't a Lowden. At this stage, fan fret seems rather novel, a bit like my Baritone guitar, great for the odd song but not a full stage set. Any future Lowden would have to be a guitar for all seasons. Don't tell the rookery but his Collings fits that bill, as would the HD28V it is based on. As you demonstrate regularly.

The Avian I am looking at also has an offset sound hole so I can hear it better. The old voice struggles sometimes with quiet songs. I want to chuck the Jim Harley 'dread in too as I (ok, Mrs Musket) have enacted a one in one out policy and you know what? Only the Rainsong is safe from sale.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 12:49 PM

The Memsahib is 'encouraging' me to follow the same 'one in, one out' policy. Problem is, what to do when the ones you have are so good you don't want to unload any of them?

I feel a 'hide it in the wardrobe' coming on...!! 😜😎

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket hiding
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 03:58 PM

At least two of mine are "on loan" from the rookery as far as Mrs Musket is concerned.

Those of us afflicted with GAS should be able to draw a special pension or at least get free prescriptions. (Says possibly the only UK mudcatter too young to get them anyway 😎)

Still, could be worse. We could be afflicted with some paranoia or other regarding credit cards and NFC payments 😂

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 04:48 PM

😃😃

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 04:58 PM

My wife is dead. Not advocating such a solution, just saying...

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 15 - 09:38 PM

Well, I have a Lowden, three Martins, a Fylde mandolin and a Fender bass - the acquisition of each one having been not only approved, but actively encouraged, and a couple of them partly financed, by my wife.

She's the best, in every way.

Our problem with GAS isn't having insufficient financial resources, it's one of having a shortage of space to store additional instruments/cases. And, at the age of 68, I've no intention of going down the road of buying a bigger house, I'm more interested in down-sizing.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 03:32 AM

Yeah that's the issue. I don't like leaving them in cases out of the way, I want to play them so they are all on stands in the study. Snag is, I can't get to a book case now and a cupboard under it has things I need to get at.

Been looking at a two tier multi stand. Footprint less than two guitars but holds six. Two of them might just do it and for now, hold the banjo, tenor mandolin etc too.

Cost is less of an issue than many years ago, not just because of my circumstances but because you get so much guitar for so little if you look around. I delight in finding new guitars less than a grand that are up there with the four granders in tone and playability. A friend just starting out playing asked my advice and I went with him to purchase. An Epiphone at £120 new? I was impressed with this one at any level. (Ditto Yamaha, Alvarez, Sigma, Lag, tanglewood......)

The Reiner and Rainsong are the only ones I have right now worth four figure sums although of course, it's only a matter of time till either that Collings I keep borrowing or a HD28 of some description comes my way. Resistance is futile. A bit like me buying a Washburn equivalent of the Gibson ES335 for my electrics collection last month. Yeah it's good for £250 but as I am playing it often, how long before a real "Lucille" or the Gretsch White Falcon takes up residence in Chez Musket?
😮

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 03:56 AM

Still got to store the cases, even if you keep the guitars out on stands, so even more space needed! 😎

As my instruments are all solid wood, relative humidity is an important issue, especially during the winter with the CH running - another reason why they live in their cases, where RH is easily controlled. In summer, when ambient RH tends to hang around within the 45-60% range, I have one, sometimes two, out on stands at any given time.

Remind me to tell you the story of my J-40 v. CH-induced low RH some time! 😜

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 03:58 AM

Errrrrmm.......how did we get from NFC Credit Cards to guitars, storage and RH? 😜😳

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 07:39 PM

....errrmm.. because GAS and credit card debt are intrinsically linked....????? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket gassing
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:34 AM

Good point PFR. The guitar I am possibly buying shortly will mean me going to London to try it (I am there for other reasons so it isn't that extravagant) and if I like it, order it through their website to be delivered. Half because I don't wish to drag a guitar case to meetings and half because if I order it at distance with a credit card, I have a far longer period of trying it out, at home. It stops any argument if I don't like it after all and built in insurance till I add it to my own policy.

BWM. I hear your reasoning why they should be in cases with a humidifier but to be honest, living in the study gets few temperature changes and a bowl of water lies behind them. Actually, thinking on, only three of mine are made from plywood backs, the rest of the wooden ones are solid. The Reiner didn't initially like moving from its home at Albert's to mine and popped out a bridge pin in protest. When I put brass ones in, it decided to lift a fret instead.

The guitar and I are having a Mexican stand off and it behaved impeccably last night at a folk club. Probably lulling me into a false sense of security....

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:21 PM

"....errrmm.. because GAS and credit card debt are intrinsically linked....????? 😜"

..errrmm.. Not in my world they aren't! I'm Old School - if I don't have the money, I save up until I have, then I buy with my card (to get protection and hang on to my money as long as possible) and pay the full balance off before the payment due date. No interest, no debts. 👍😎

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:02 PM

I have no idea what people are now wittering on about.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,Musket laughing
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 04:17 AM

Funnily enough Mr Red, that's what I thought of your posts so we just ignored you and found a far more acceptable topic.

Here BWM, it seems far more people have our "old school" approach than say, ten years ago. The banks meanwhile are saying the lack of increasing personal debt is hitting profits.

No wonder we are talking guitars. Banking as a topic has s nasty ring to it.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 08:11 AM

It does indeed. Guitars are a much nicer subject - even plastic ones and (spit) Taylors! 👍😜😎

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 09:12 AM

see I'm an irresponsible unemployable product of the feckless 1970s
- if I see something bloody expensive going for less than half price in a sale
I'll slap it on the card and worry about how to pay for it later...😜

eg back in February, the black painted version of one of these

I know it makes some of you older more sensible business oriented blokes cringe.. but there you go..

Mind there is some minimal method to my financial carelessmess...

if i get a formerly £900 guitar for let'e say £300,
then the card interest over several months is not so unreasonable
and probably a damn sight less painful than the stinging HP terms my parents generation used to sign up for
to pay for furniture, clothes and xmas presents, out of the big shops and mail order catalogues...

[course to a teenage lad, the bras and knickers section of the catalogues were our earliest furtive access to 'naughty pictures'....]

Dread to think how much HP interest my mum and dad forked out on top of the price of my first proper guitar and amp... !!!???

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 09:35 AM

Which is why I like to keep my finances comfortably in the black, then I can take advantage of the kind of bargains you mention, PFR!

Much easier to keep funds comfortably buoyant when you're not busy paying off credit card debts with interest being added at a rate of 18% APR or worse!

But, each to his own! 👍😎

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 10:23 AM

Backwoodsman - take it from me.. i'd much rather be in your shoes at this time of my life..

.. ah but for the dumb career destroying decisions of a misspent misguided youth...

The wife's meagre public servant's pension is doomed to being well stretched if I live much beyond 70....😜

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 15 - 12:33 PM

Oh, don't misunderstand me - I've had credit card debt.
The experience changed my life and my outlook and it's why, having got myself out of it a good few years ago, I refuse to have it now or in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: NFC credit cards - metal wallets ???
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Aug 15 - 03:54 AM

Let me see, the rule here is "I can't be arsed to switch on my brain, so why not just talk about what I can understand?"

Trolls do that too.