BS: Corbyn Landslide

Subject: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:48 AM

Just heard the news that Jeremy Corbyn has been elected Labour leader by a very large majority.

Wonderful. Now we can get on with undoing all the damage which the Tories have inflicted on us over the past five years.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:42 AM

Aye, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:47 AM

He was the Tories choice of candidate.
Some actually paid to vote for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:04 AM

Jeremy Corbyn was the choice of a huge number of people like me, who have become severely disaffected with the Labour Party as it formerly stood.

What Corbyn did was to lance a boil of discontentment, which should now transform itself into a grass roots movement and one which will fight for all the things Labour used to stand for.

The Tories have no say in this contest and are not in a position to exercise a choice. Some did indeed pay the affiliation fee, and vote for Corbyn, purely because they think he will lose Labour the next election. That however, merely shows what anti-democratic skunks and low lifes you will find among the Tory Party if you look closely enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:08 AM

"He was the Tories choice of candidate."
Utter nonsense
The Tory press - Telegraph, Mail and Times in particular,launched a vitriolic attack on him unprecedented since Punch's 'Irishman as ape' Cartoons - it was vicious and personal, even by their gutter standards .
When they say they he was going to lose, they adopted a face-saving ploy, claiming that it would be to their benefit as he would destroy the Labour Party
Whatever of their lines you accept, Corbyn as Nightmare on Elm Street's "Freddie" or the call to infiltrate - both from the Tory press, it shows just what a shitty undemocratic lot they are and what a squalid mess British politics has become.
Corbyn has landslid into leadership, %60 of the overall vote, %40 more than his nearest rival.
So much for the right-wing arsewipe press campaign.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:13 AM

Now he can concentrate on getting us to leave NATO, leave the EU ( actually ,not a bad idea )and scrapping Trident , for which he will receive a medal from Putin, no doubt.That is if he lives that long,of course .,as he may not be THAT popular with EVERYONE in Britain !

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:15 AM

I'm waiting for Tony Blair's comments...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:26 AM

The Tories choice for candidate
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:45 AM

From Jim's linked article,

"And now, Labour seems to have turned suicidal. The latest news from its leadership contest is that Jeremy Corbyn, originally assumed to be a joke candidate, is leading internal opinion polls. To the Tories, it really is beginning to look a lot like Christmas."

" I know of one Tory donor who claims to have taken out five memberships of the Labour Party, under different names, so as to vote for Corbyn five times. "

"Labour hasn't won a working majority without Tony Blair since 1966; it could be out of action for some time. This would not just be bad for democracy, but bad for the Tories too."

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:47 AM

A couple of terrorist groups are delighted.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:04 AM

One thing that should worry any sensible tory is that a whole mass of individuals and groups who thought they had power and influence and threw in every economic and military argument found themselves with no influence at all. So no Tory should assume the conventional attacks will just work.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:05 AM

"The Tories have no say in this contest and are not in a position to exercise a choice."

Not quite true Fred - Anyone who was prepared to punt £3 to the Labour Party's coffers got a say in the contest - are you saying that this process had some sort of filter on it to ensure that people who do not vote Labour could not vote for Corbyn as they deem him unelectable to the electorate of the UK thereby making his election as Labour leader an advantage for their own party of choice?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:16 AM

Opinions of the Right wing Press Keith - Cameron has described Corbyn as a danger to Britain and the security services have suggested that he be barred from meetings - that's how much of a joke he was and that's how much the Tories chose him
At least the British electorate now have a choice between policies rather than of the Tories of different shades who have fucked up Britain.
By the way, six members of the Shadow Cabinet have said they will not work with him
Long live democratic Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:19 AM

My only hope is that Jeremy does not become TOO inclusive.

There are a huge number of sitting MP who are careerists and would do anything to have him side lined.
Remember that nice Mr Obama?
People like Umunna and Cooper should be kept well away from office and Jeremy needs to show that as leader he will have the ultimate say.

The odds are stacked against him, but all who voted for him did not do so to get rid of the Tories in the next GE.
The Labour Party should now be a platform on which socialist policies are explained and advanced.....

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:41 AM

excellent !!! the mrs was so delighted with news of the election result that she immediately required an extra vigorous saturday morning seeing to.....





... though now that he's leader, he'll have to stop cycling to work...
He's far too vulnerable to a treacherously rigged rainy dark morning HGV lorry plot scenario...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 09:53 AM

Will he wear a tie on Armistice Sunday? There's the rub!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: JeffB
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM

Once the euphoria has died down we should bear in mind that JC (I'm sure Private Eye will have immense fun with those initials, Corbyn's beard and messianic policies) will not be fighting a general election until 2020. Until then Cameron will enjoy an absolute majority, which (like it or not) is a clear mandate the British electorate gave him to tighten the screws still further. We could have voted for less austerity, a more equitable taxation system, and more humane social policies, but we chose not to. It's hard to imagine all those who voted Conservative doing an about-turn very readily, especially with the vicious invective, prophecies of economic Armeggedon, and daily misrepresentations which the Daily Wail and friends will be flinging at Corbyn and his colleagues in the next five years. People really do believe that stuff.

The current issue of PE has an amusing (or infuriating) pairing of JC quotes compared with Tory newspaper headlines "reporting" what they want people to believe he said. This kind of misrepresentation must have already negatively affected tens of thousands of voters. It will now worsen. The papers themselves will of course never publish corrections.

It will be interesting to see who JC will choose for his shadow cabinet. Nearly every experience New Labour politician has disqualified his/herself by their extreme criticism of his policies, except for one I heard on the news today saying she "would work with anyone". Anyone who looked like winning, presumably.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM

Or a white poppy.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 10:17 AM

JeffB, I think you're missing the point. Yes, the Tories will be in power until 2020, and yes, they'll be aiming to shove all kinds of poisonous legislation down our throats. So nothing new there.

However, we now appear to have a Labour leadership which is in tune with the activist grassroots. Which means that the battle against EG., anti-trade union legislation will take place both inside parliament and outside. In other words, direct action is about to come into its own, and that is something which the Tories have not had to face in a very long time.

Remember Ed Miliband decrying the fact that local government workers went on strike to oppose Tory imposed cuts in their pensions? I think that Cameron and co will find it much more difficult to get their own way quite as easily in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 11:00 AM

He is not a pacifist, Keith. Perhaps you think that people opposed to nuclear weapons are all pacifists. Well I have news for you. We're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 11:13 AM

..dead right Steve..

i used to enjoy a good playground scrap - got me nose bust 3 times, and my glasses were constantly held together with cellotape...

... then i got too short sighted for rugby & playtime punch ups
and had to give up and read books and become a lefty intellectual instead...

life's a bastard... innit...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 11:18 AM

We should never forget that that "Tory absolute majority" is only 12. In addition the Tories are currently split over the refugee crisis with the 'frothing at the mouth Genghis Khan (aka KAoH)' wing of the party against the rest who have had a good rummage and found bits of moth-eared conscience at the bottom of a drawer. Cameron is currently floundering about - pulled this way and that between the frothy GK's, UKIP, public opinion and 'Merkel's' EU - and not looking particularly decisive or statesmanlike. I bet that, secretly, he's dreading having to face JC over the dispatch box.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 11:37 AM

Well, who would have thought there would be such a fuss over the Labour Party choosing a socialist as their leader?

I am just a bit worried that after having been presented with the image of a "genuine", "authentic" Jeremy Corbyn for the past few weeks, as soon as the ballot was closed we saw news footage of him shoving people aside and snarling "Get out of me way!"

Yes, I do know that reporters can be a nuisance, but if that turns out to be the real, genuine, authentic new leader, it does not bode well for a united Labour Party to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 11:47 AM

Shimrod. I suspect you're right about the dispatch box, and you're certainly right about Cameron's slender majority, to say nothing of Ghengis Khan. I suspect that the first big battle will occur on Wednesday during Prime Minister's Questions, for which I have a ringside seat booked right in front of the telly.

Who knows, between Corbyn, the EU, draconian trade union legislation (over which even a fair number of Tory MPs must be shaking their heads) and the migrant crisis, we may yet see the Conservative Party begin to unravel.

Oh, I nearly forgot. There's the bill to repeal the Hunting With Dogs Act coming up, and Corbyn, as a staunch animal rights person, will certainly be leading the hunt on that one.

Tories, Labour is just about to shoot your fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 12:20 PM

"news footage of him shoving people aside and snarling "Get out of me way!" "

I've not seen that, but if by 'people' you mean the usual nasty thuggish scrummage of desperate photographers and media hyena pack..

then good, if that's what he did, then it inspires even more confidence in his forthright integrity and demeanour...

It's about bloody time personalities in the spotlight found the courage to stamp down on those uncontrollable parasitic paparazzi arseholes...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 12:33 PM

For years those within the Labour Party who are wholly opposed to Trident, for examplw, have accepted that this has been out of step with party policy. That hasn't stopped them working to win. Now it appears pretty clear that in fact they were in step with majority opinion in the grassroots party, andd those who disagree should do the same?

In Scotland the overwhelming mass of people are now opposed to Trident. There is no reason to assume that the people of English are irrevocably set in the other direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:03 PM

It takes a particularly hideous kind of wanker to think he can lead the labour party. Remember , they are merely the opposition!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:24 PM

the elephant in the room is chemical weapons. nuclear weapons are outdated. trident is just expensive showbusiness. it trangresses all international agreements. but all the main players have been beavering away developing chemical weapons since the second world war.

everybody knows it. no ones saying it. if the zero. option situation ever occurs, that's what will be finishing us off.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:37 PM

But is the UK a main player these days?

Trident is stupid, pointless and an expensive white elephant. But they worship white elephants in the English print media, and in parliament, and a lot of otherwise reasonably rational people worship them too.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:46 PM

But in fact support for Trident is a minority view.

"Thirty-three per cent of over-35-year-olds believe the UK's weapon system should be renewed to maintain its size and capacity. Support among 18-35s is even lower at 19%.

Only 38% agree with the proposition that nuclear weapons protect countries that possess them from modern threats such as terrorism, and just 6% believe spending on defence should be the government's priority over the next 10 years."

That was the finding of a 2014 poll reported here

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:05 PM

The tea party of the left is no different than the tea party of the right - they are both fringe groups and unelectable, at least in the current political climate, but that is always subject to change.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 03:57 PM

I'm genuinely curious here , guys, and am making no comment on Mr. Corbyn's success - for which I congratulate him - but honestly, in percentage terms, what do you think is the probability of him leading Labour to a victory over the Conservative party in the next General Election ?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 04:16 PM

One answer, Kenny, is that every talking head and senior labour figure first dismissed him as unelec able as leader and gradually came to fight to stop him and he gained a stomping majority. So when those same people say heinous unelectable as prime minister just bear in mind that their predictions are not that reliable.


Next, remember the difference in the number of votes is tiny when compared to the number who didn't vote, many of whom said it was because all the politicians were the same and Corbyn at least appears different.

Will he win? Who knows?
Could he win? Yew

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 05:32 PM

Teribus and Keith can take comfort from the fact that Corbyn would have still won by a wide margin if the election had been confined to full members of the Labour Party, with no £3 supporter votes an no voting by members of affiliated unions.

JeffB, there are few points you might not have factored in. For instance it's odds on that Cameron's majority will have gone by 2020; the EU referendum will hurt the Tories more than Labour, and we haven't seen even the first of the 40 per cent cuts in public service spending we've been promised.

On top of all that, Labour's membership will now rocket yet further. I've just rejoined myself after a break of many years. It is a membership that will be out on the streets in 2020, campaigning with more enthusiasm than there has been for any party in memory. (Just compare how the accessions of some other party leaders were received - Cameron, Brown, Hague, Miliband, IDS....)

Having made a small fortune from backing Corbyn when he was 22/1, I think I can afford to risk a few shillings on Labour winning the next general election.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 05:48 PM

Don't do it Peter. Softly Softly........the main purpose has been achieved socialism is back on the menu, but don't think it's all over, the Blairites are still strong in the Parliamentary Party and the knives will be out.

Cooper Umunna and Hunt looked as if they were sucking lemons, they wont just walk away.

Jeremy needs to kick them into shape or get them out, if not they will make his position untenable.

Blair and Campbell had no scruples regarding internal opposition.

I suppose you remember that? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:13 PM

the way Cameron's going, he's pursuing very unpopular policies. propped up by a right wing media.

i think Corbyn could succeed. there are a lot disparate elements who hate Cameron's guts. the lib dems have always been nearer leftist labour than the tories. similarly the SNP.

it could happen. a better chance than kinnock ever had, i'd say/ he's a better speaker/orator than anyone to the right or left of him.

i think he'll run rings round Cameron at PM question time.

murdoch likes a winner .... i think he'll fall in line if Cameron goes into meltdown. then its game over.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:18 PM

Let's put it this way.

It takes a particularly hideous sort of wanker to be Bozo.

You can't defeat the con-servatives by agreeing with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:24 PM

Oh, FFS. There are some real wankers on here (yes, you know who you are) who would whinge about anything. Corbyn is not left wing by anyone's standards but those who swallow the tripe Murdoch and co. feed them. Grow up and take your medicine. The opposition has just grown balls. Get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 06:47 PM

The Blairites are strong ( in numbers) in the parliamentary party, but weak in the party as a whole. I strongly suspect a lot of them will drift back to follow the mainstream, which is now Corbynite.(Sounds like an explosive...)

Right now Corbyn is unfamiliar, and most people are liable to believe the deluge of hostile reports and comments in the media, but with nearly five years to go they'll be getting to know him a lot better, and I believe a lot will very much like what they see.

It's often said that parties elections aren't so much won by the challengers, they are lost by the government. I think Cameron's government - especially if it's led by the singularly unpleasant Osborne at the election, which seems very likely, is extremely likelt to alienate millions of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 07:16 PM

"To those resigning from the shadow cabinet: good riddance. You've now made it clear that you had no intention of building a fairer country." -George Monbiot on Twitter (which I don't understand)

Well said, George - though I know you can be a bit of a nutter at times :-) - these people have severely diminished themselves and are clearly hoping for an early coup that will bring them hurriedly back to the table. Well I hope their careers are over. If ever a party needed the massive kick up the arse that's happened today, it's Labour. If the likes of Ummuna, Cooper, Reeves, Hunt, Miliband et al. start to come on Question Time or write columns in the papers briefing against Jeremy, they will do the party ten times more harm than Jeremy's election will ever do. They need to have a massive humility check and realise that they are all two-time losers. I believe this country wants to see an honest form of politics at long last, and it's my bet that, if Jeremy can hold the line on that front, it won't matter whether he's left, right, up or down. The people of this country will respond positively whatever. I confidently predict that the Tory spinners will be working overtime in the next few days and that Cameron is quaking in his bloody boots. A humble, straightforward honest broker versus a pompous, overblown, overgrown Eton boy - what's the betting!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:51 PM

Recently people have been turning their backs on UK politicians who would say anything to get themselves elected. The electorate can be fooled some of the time....

At last we get someone who we can believe. We might not agree with with everything that he says, but we believe that he is sincere.

That is a great start on which to re-build a party which could get itself elected and implement policies that benefit this country.


Many people that voted tory at the last election didn't do it because they believed in the tories. They didn't believe in anybody, they thought that virtually all politicians were lying, self-serving money grabbers.

Now that they have Mr Corbyn, in whom they can believe, I think that his popular vote might be a lot higher than those middle-of-the-road labour supporters (who lost the last election) might think.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 08:56 PM

Alas I know some Tories, and I can say they were dismayed and embarrassed by the scaremongering reaction of the Tories today - Michael Fallon in particular, who claimed the security of "your families" has been put at risk. Poor stuff. (Though Cameron did phone with congratulations.)

I don't think I'm risking much, Ake. The Tories will have a leadership election of their own before the next election. They're unlikely to find anyone with personal qualities to match Corbyn's and will damage each other at least as much as the present spat has damaged Labour - but much nearer the election. Another point in Labour's favour: Tom Watson and Corbyn's team are already proven masters of social media (the dead-tree press now counts for nothing) - and will be out of sight on that score by the time the Tories get out of the blocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 02:19 AM

The point made by Fion above is important. Watson was promising a new communications policy, and the poison dripping from the dead tree media and the old-fashioned terrestrial and particularly celestial media can with effective use of the new media be avoided and overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 03:04 AM

Those of a certain age will remember the phrase "Were you there for Portillo? " it certainly seemed to me that for a long time afterwards he was shaken to the core by how far he was out of step with the country, expressed though enormous glee he had lost. And to grant the guy good sense, he learned a lot of humility from it
it.


Now every second time of the Labour leader electorate except the MPs themselves have made clear the MPs arbour of step. With luck, more than one will have their own Portillo moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 03:12 AM

Section. The Autocorrect on this phone drives me mad!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 03:16 AM

Steve, I don't think Ed Miliband would do that, although David might. Its not impossible that we might see Ed Miliband in a shadow cabinet position under Corbyn in time. He has much to offer, despite the shameful attacks on him by what I see people here are calling "the dead tree press". Good phrase that.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 04:06 AM

What I find particularly galling is the fact that Blairites are still being described as "moderates"! There was nothing moderate about Blair or his cronies! Let's never forget that Blair was a watered down, neo-liberal Thatcherite who followed his master George Bush into an horrendous, illegal war in Iraq - a war for which we are still paying the price. I'm just reading a book by the journalist, Seumus Milne, entitled 'The Revenge of History', which emphasises the fact that there has been very little that has been moderate about the last couple of decades. The pernicious ideology of the neo-liberal free market has fractured our societies and blighted the environment - not to mention murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the Middle East and leading directly to the present chaos in that region. Blair and his f*cking 'moderate' chums should be in the dock at the Hague!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 04:44 AM

Just a quick reminder for anyone who supports the Blairite viewpoint - A very good anagram of 'Tony Blair M P' is 'I am Tory Plan B'

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 04:53 AM

It was almost worth reading the nonsense on here just for the phrase:

the dead-tree press now counts for nothing! I think it does - if you dont - go to your newsagent and read the headlines of all the papers for a week or so - then see how you feel. Vomit is standard.

When the tories got in in 79 we chose Michael. It took 3 other leaders and 18 years during which millions of people were on and off the dole, Union power was destroyed and schools fell apart - just a few things I remember.

I voted Labour in May and many of JCs supporters did not - that's why we have a tory govt. and the most right wing one too.

I voted for Yvette but JC won and I will give loyal support and do what I do in the Party - go to meetings, leaflet and canvass

I trust all those on here and elsewhere who think JC will see the return of a Labour Govt. are going to be active members of the Labour Party and not just people who post on blogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 04:54 AM

Corbyn is not left wing by anyone's standards

Guardian today,
"arguably the most leftwing leader in Labour history – "

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 04:55 AM

Richard and Peter, the problem with the new social media is that huge changes can come about on a whim, "Politics" is becoming obsolete, which is a dangerous situation.

We need education as well as information.
In Scotland we saw a huge shift in political opinion stoked in large part by "social media".....I think the movement was correct but based on emotion rather than considered opinion.
Such emotional shifts can often disappear as quickly as "snaw aff a dyke"

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 05:21 AM

I think Jeremy needs to be really honest about what socialism will mean.   The old rhetoric of the "glorious working class" is dead and buried.
There are people who want to live on benefits....we all know them, there are those who rip off the health service, unregulated immigration from poorer nations to provide cheap labour is not a socialist principle, the middle classes and the wealthy are going to be considerably worse off financially.

Abuses by the poor are at the moment excused by even bigger abuses by the corporations, big business and grasping politicians.

Under a socialist regime, ALL of this will have to be brought to an end.
Explaining and educating the population will be Jeremy's biggest problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 05:37 AM

I hope that the 'Labour faithful' get a better grip on JC than they did on Blair and his successors.

"I'd vote Labour if they privatised me grandad and followed a right-wing American president into an illegal war! Oh dear! They've gone to war ... illegally ... Never mind, grandad, I'm sure they know what they're doing and it will be for the best! After all, you always voted Labour, didn't you?"

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 06:19 AM

"There are people who want to live on benefits"
Just as their are bankers who actually live on the rich pickings of greed and bad advice, and politicians who don't turn up to parliaments and live on dishonest claims - it is these that need to be dealt with - not those surviving on the pittance benefit offers.
The fact that some workers may be prepared to accept benefits for work they have no desire to do but are unable to get employment in jobs they are qualified for, is an indication of a system that is falling apart at the seams - there are around two million unemployed in Britain today and that particularly applies to anywhere outside The Home Counties.
Benefits are set at a virtually unlivable level, as are many of the lower paid jobs very few people actually do not want to work, but for the vast majority of unemployed, there is no alternative.
As a "socialist" you spend a great deal of time attacking ordinary working people and defending a totally corrupt establishment
Socialist my arse!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 07:05 AM

The uncomfortable truth for both the tories and the New Labour cliques is that there is a large amount of support amongst the general public for more a more socially equitable approach to government in this country; the election results in Scotland prove this beyond doubt. Labour got a kicking at the election because it wasn't standing for anything, but kow-towing to tory austerity and extreme free-market economics whilst the shadow of Chilcot and Blair loom over a concerned electorate who rightly wanted nothing to do with the toothless, directionless parody of a party Labour had become.

Corbyn distances himself from these standpoints and understands that most people thought Iraq was wrong and that totally unregulated free markets are not socially responsible, and can even be a positive danger to democracy as well as being utterly unable to regulate themselves. What was missing in British politics since the appalling betrayal by Blair et al on Iraq and the city was a genuine voice for these concerns, and in Scotland Sturgeon satisfied that role and in the rest of the UK (with the exception of Northern Ireland, mired as it is in continuing sectarian idiocy and outdated tribalism) Corbyn has become that voice.

The tories recognise the inherent danger in this. They understand that it is both dangerous and short-termist to sell off our infrastructure and fear a popular movement (which undoubtedly exists) to reclaim it for the nation. They also recognise the fact that their insidious plan to run down the NHS (which they hate and are ideologically opposed to whatever they say) prior to extensive privatisation is now causing actual suffering to patients. As anyone who has had to deal with hospital authorities recently knows, deep and pervasive concerns amongst a dedicated staff aghast at the fact the ability to care for their fellows is bing taken from them. It's not great on the wards at the moment.

As for New Labour, their heart was never in social democracy in the first place. The bright young things that robbed the Labour movement of it's core values of compassion and equality now realise they have misjudged how much the grass roots of the party have had to endure, under both their government and the tory clusterfuck that has followed.

All that matters is people can live their lives happily, healthily and with security. When they are ill they can be treated, they can be educated to a high level regardless of economic background, they can be housed and built a home and when things go wrong they can be looked after and helped to get back on their feet.

Not too much to ask, and only Corbyn is interested in delivering that simple, compassionate, evidence-based approach to the governance of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 07:18 AM

I guess you will be leafleting and knocking on doors any day now Stu?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Kampervan
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 07:41 AM

I reckon that Stu has got it about right.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 07:45 AM

Stu. Amen to just about everything you've said, especially about the NHS. The last time I was detained in hospital the staff were so shorthanded and so overworked and charging around from bed to bed at such breakneck speed that I thought they must be on roller skates.

That is no way to run a public health service. "Nurse, I'm dying!" "Sorry, I'm too busy to attend to you right now. If you're still alive in about three hours, I'll sort you out then."

Needless to say, this is not the fault of the front line staff, for whom the term angels of mercy should have been coined. The blame lies at the door of the most cold hearted, unfeeling, insensitive, dog-eat-dog government since Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 07:48 AM

Corbyn makes the neocons anxious, much like Sanders does in the US. I think that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 08:15 AM

"I guess you will be leafleting and knocking on doors any day now Stu?"

I won't Les, and here's why. Modern politics has become a careerist, corporate-influenced and corrupt edifice whose foundations are based on the shifting sands of capitalist economics and the capriciousness of the market. It's become mired in the cesspit of tribalism promoted by foreign media moguls with massive vested interests and a disproportionate influence on everyone form our most humble to most senior politicians. Even with Corbyn as Labour leader, it's likely he won't be invited to Bilderberg and will be out of many, many entangled loops. Party politics has become poison; until we have a democratic voting system they are an albatross around the neck of the people of this nation.

The way I see it, the best way to fight this is by not succumbing to their shallow, uncompassionate, wilfully ignorant and idealistic way of living life. These people rely on us not thinking for ourselves, on us being unquestioning and happy to settle for 'our lot'. So I take an active part in my local community, attending town meetings, knowing my councillors by name and helping with the activities that bring us together regardless of who you are. I study science and try to contribute in my own tiny way to our understanding of the world so we can deal with the challenges we face (and so many deny).

It's all you can do. Open the door for old ladies. Recycle your rubbish. Wave thanks when someone gives way to you in the car. Read. Go to art galleries and ponder subjects beyond the material. Campaign against the souless corporate schemes that destroy our two centres and rob us of our identities. Shout at your MP and hold them to account.

Corbyn is just closer to this viewpoint than other politicians, but he's still a politician. Best get on with it without them.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 09:05 AM

Tribalism, in Northern Ireland or anywhere, never gets "outdated". It goes in and out of fashion, and then it goes out and in again. Remember when there was a Yugoslavia, which had left all its Balkan squabbles far behind?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 10:47 AM

"I guess you will be leafleting and knocking on doors any day now Stu?"

I wouldn't leaflet or knock on doors for a party full of slick little careerists who no longer represents my fellow citizens - or me for that matter. In fact I vehemently oppose a party that really stands for Big Business and the interests of the rich and is prepared to stand by as the gap between rich and poor gets wider and wider.

To take an even wider perspective, I wouldn't leaflet or knock on doors for a party which has contempt for the environment and sees it as an irrelevance merely there to be concreted over as fast as possible! At least, in his acceptance speech, JC suggested that the environment should be a priority - rather than pay token lip-service to it like the New Labour shits have done now and again when it suits them.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 10:51 AM

Stu...Regarding your post of 7 05am, if only it was as simple as that!

Tinkering with the system makes the whole enterprise redundant.
Capitalism and the mind set it has promoted always comes to the top.

Hardly anyone understands socialism any longer...what it means, and how it feels. Since the 1960s we have had uninterrupted consumerism, a society which has been taught to "do unto others before they do it unto you"
The job of a socialist leader is to re-educate society, the flaws are not only with the rich and powerful....that's why the "liberals" like Jim and Steve are such a danger, they propagate the idea that the poor or the non existent "working class" are all noble, incorruptible and above any form of manipulation of the system.
This problem runs throughout society, it is a state of mind which must be eradicated before we can have anything like "equality" or a general lifestyle within which we all feel like contributers.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 01:07 PM

I guess writing b*ll*cks on here is more effective than talking to ordinary members of the public about how me might run this country. Yes I know we can't run everything - we never said we could.

But for all those who couldn't bring themselves to vote Labour in May you have helped to elect the most right wing tory govt. ever - I guess you are pleased with yourselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 01:37 PM

Many of the consequences of our actions are, I am afraid, unpredictable. We don't like to think it, but it is so. Had Labour won, Corbyn would still be a largely forgotten back bencher and labour would probably become more and more pale blue as if fought for the "centre" ground which is moving ever rightwards. With the election of Corbyn we may have the first left of centre government for almost fifty years or Labour could cease to exist: who can tell! Certainly not me. So, yes, we may have the most right wing government in years but that could also be the salvation of the left wing. That's the complexity of these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 01:58 PM

Once again a thoughtful contribution from DMcG. It's not about electability it's about political education.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 02:10 PM

Hmmm? I wonder who is really "talking b*ll*cks on here"? Under New Labour the opinions of "ordinary members of the public" on "how we might run this country" were regarded with contempt and what really mattered were the opinions of Big Business ... not much different from Tory attitudes, really. Listen, Les, I'm not going to vote for - let alone work for - a party which I am convinced doesn't represent me or my fellow 'ordinary' citizens. If the Labour Party wants my loyalty back, after the betrayals of the last couple of decades, it's going to have to work damn hard! If the Tories got in last time that's partly a result of the first past the post system but also because Labour alienated its core vote! We who didn't vote Tory or Labour were left with a very limited choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 02:57 PM

When this govt have finished their wont be an NHS or a remotely sensible Public Education System. Their will be no faces on the poor left to grind.

Yes Labour made mistakes and got things wrong. But we replaced or rebuilt every secondary school and many primary schools, took children out of poverty, brought in the minimum wage, started Surestart, and even for goodness sake even more or less peace in Ireland.

As for the Iraq war the tories were probably more in favour of it than we were - and are still itching to go into Syria.

Who gives a sh*t - just let the tories get on with it. 11 million people voted tory in May and that's it. It took us 4 leaders and 18 years last time. Don't hold your breath

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 05:44 PM

As expected, Hamas recognizes a fellow antisemite when it sees one.


Hamas terror group endorses Jeremy Corbyn in Labour leadership contest

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 05:50 PM

Ah yes, Conservative Friends of Israel! Nice one, Guest. I reckon that bunch of troglodytes would have even Keith a-quaking in his boots! Yeah, Bibi forever! :-)

Try again!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 05:55 PM

11 million people on the electoral roll voted Tory in May. Or putting it another way, 34 million people on the roll didn't. And there are 3 and a half more or so who aren't registered to vote.

11 million perhaps isn't quite so overwhelming...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 06:23 PM

Ah yes, Conservative Friends of Israel! Nice one, Guest.

Conservative, friends or Israel; which of those do you have a problem with?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 06:32 PM

Well, Kevin, I've been a member of the Labour Party for one and three-quarter minutes! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 08:04 PM

I'm still just an affiliated supporter. Fellow traveller.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 08:15 PM

Very insightful piece on Corbyn and his supporters by Maajid Nawaz:

"Jeremy Corbyn is the new leader of the Labour Party. Politicians like him on the left and right don't try to win arguments—they try to destroy their opponents.

We are living in a spiteful, populist time."

The Daily Hate: Corbyn, Trump and the New Politics of Spite

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 08:28 PM

Pretty clearly Maajid Nawaz doesn't know the first thing about Jeremy Corbyn. I'm amazed he managed to spell his name correctly.
..............

You aren't alone Steve - there've been about 15,000 new Labour Party members in the last 24 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 15 - 09:25 PM

That's a good laugh, that is, about Jeremy trying to "destroy" his opponents. Why, I think I can ready hear the sound of Tory spin doctors sharpening their scalpels. We've already had backwoodsman Fallon crawling out of the woodwork telling us all how "dangerous" Jeremy is. And to think that poor old Jeremy can't even get power for at least the next four and a half years!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 01:30 AM

I am a £3-er myself and am not joining the party yet. How the rest of the MPs behave throughout September will determine whether I join on 1st October

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 02:28 AM

Looks like labour unity has already gone out of the window very southern leading shadow cabinet.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 02:53 AM

Oh, come on, guest. You must have a better straw to clutch at than that

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 03:12 AM

Everybody brings joy to The Labour Party: Some when they arrive and some when they leave.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 03:15 AM

A beano very shadow cabinet!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 03:49 AM

"Everybody brings joy to The Labour Party: Some when they arrive and some when they leave."

I'm not following you, Les. You'll have to be a bit less cryptic (or sarcastic?) than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,keith a
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 04:31 AM

Steve, that CFI piece was just a report of something that appeared in the Daily Telegraph.
The quotes would not have been made up.
"Jeremy Corbyn praised by Hamas leaders for his 'sympathetic' stance on the Israel-Palestinian conflict"
It was filed by Robert Tait in Gaza City.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11840793/jeremy-corbyn-hamas-praise-israel-palestine-conflict.html

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 04:45 AM

In my opinion there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the Israeli Palestinian problem, but I think that right now, there are much more important issues afoot.

The whole political direction of the west is in flux, there are huge problems concerning the threats from Muslim fundamentalism, global warming, unsustainable use of resources, mass migration into developed Western countries.
These matters push the I/P issue into insignificance.

Lets get our priorities in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 04:51 AM

The creative response - a song about jeremy

https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/jeremy-corbyn-song

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 05:04 AM

A crackin' little song Al...your talent truly amazes me!!

Its much better then Blair's signature tune..."Things can only get better" :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 05:11 AM

I love the way they are dissing the stinking media and redefining the importance of ministerial office.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 06:21 AM

Well I for one am glad that Hamas views Corbyn more favourably than many another western figure. We didn't end the worst of the violence in the Six Counties by refusing to talk. As for the Israel/Palestine conflict being somehow less important, I couldn't agree less. The west's unconditional support for the Israeli regime, despite the latter's egregious outrages, has been at the root of some of the world's worst conflicts of the last thirty or forty years and has helped to spawn all those things we purport to hate so much, including Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda and IS. We reap what we sow and the sooner we learn that lesson of history the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 07:23 AM

Well I for one am glad that Hamas views Corbyn more favourably than many another western figure. We didn't end the worst of the violence in the Six Counties by refusing to talk.



'[Peace] initiatives,   and   so-called   peaceful   solutions   and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.'


Article 13 The Covenant of the Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 08:25 AM

"'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions"
Apart from the flowery language, there is nothing whatever wrong with the Hamas statement.
'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful   solutions and international conferences have led to long term persecution lasting decades by Palestine's nasty neighbours, the terrorist Israeli regime - last year accounted for over 2,000 Palestinian deaths - 1,462 civilians, of whom 495 were children and 253 women.
It has also meant the building of a 'Berlin type' wall across Palestinian property, seperating farmers from their lands, and an embargo which has been in place for nearly ten years.
Despite last years murderous devastation, following last years Israeli invasion, illegal settlements continue to spring up like toadstools.
Israeli settlements
The Israeli policy of creating an apartheid state rolls on its merry way.
It has been suggested that, given the present situation, particularly following last years massacres and mass-destruction, Gaza will cease to be a viable State by the end of the decade - the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from the area will have been a complete success.   
It is fairly obvious that, thanks to the American vetos protecting Israeli terrorism, the Palestinians will continue to suffer unless they defend themselves, hopefully with the aid of some friendly outsiders - I hope Corbyn is one of those.
Jim Carroll
"The Arabic word "jihad" is often translated as "holy war," but in a purely linguistic sense, the word " jihad" means struggling or striving.
The Arabic word for war is: "al-harb"."
Israeli terrorism

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 08:26 AM

Well perhaps if we stop calling them terrorists, make assistance to Israel conditional on the Israeli regime's good behaviour (which would include lifting the siege of Gaza) and offer to talk to them, they might change their minds. It's hardly surprising they don't like us very much, is it? Of course we could carry on as we are with them, never a solution in sight. Or we could be a tad more imaginative.

Anyway, as I don't know who you are, you get this response. But if you're that Guest that Insults people who disagree with you here by calling them antisemites, etc., don't bother replying. I won't be listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 08:38 AM

Cross posted there with Jim. And I didn't intend insult with a capital I, though it can feel that way at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 09:39 AM

I have to agree with Steve and Jim, the Israeli regime's treatment of the Palestinians, since 1948, has been appalling! It's entirely understandable that they should seek to fight back especially as the Israeli's have been steadfastly supported by the US and its allies. It's been a dirty war and history tells us that the dirtier the war, the dirtier the tactics. And it's worth repeating again and again and again, that criticising Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians is NOT anti-semitism! I, for one, have absolutely no quarrel with people of the Jewish faith - they've never done me any harm. As far as I am concerned, anti-semitism is an incomprehensible, medieval sickness that led to the most barbarous crime of the 20th century. It's just awful that representatives of the oppressed should become oppressors.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 09:46 AM

If Jeremy Corbyn goes for constructive engagement with Hamas whilst everyone else parrots the same old lame don't-talk-to-terrorists guff, well all power to his elbow, say I.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST, ^*^
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 10:45 AM

Agreed with Steve and Jim - Israel is a bad neighbor in the region and much of the energy spent in nations fighting with each other stems from Israel's bad behavior toward Gaza and Palestinians. But I fear this political distinction will doom the thread because those who read criticism of Israel the state as = anti-semitism will rise up and rant.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 11:46 AM

Before they do, let me say that there is no conflict between being anti-Israeli and being pro-Semite - despite some of the abuse which has been heaped upon me at support for Palestine demos.

Lack of such a distinction sounds very much like saying that, if you're an anti-Nazi, you must be anti-German as well.

---

Exactly. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 12:22 PM

well.. before the single issue ranting nutters destroy an otherwise constructive and interesting thread...

What I have to say is since the announcement of Corbyn's election win,
the mrs has been in such a euphoric state
our sex life has improved considerably

[and for a pair of over weight 50 somethings it wasn't that bad to start with...😜]

After this weekend the labour party may owe us a new pine bed frame....

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 12:33 PM

Corby Trouser Press forms his first cabinet!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 02:30 PM

"well.. before the single issue ranting nutters destroy an otherwise constructive and interesting thread..."

Well we don't have to let that happen. A Corbyn thread is an appropriate one to have, there are controversies around him, including his attitude to Israel/Palestine, and it is legitimate to discuss them. We can stamp on the usual eejits if we try!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 04:27 PM

I agree its very appropriate to have a genuine discussion about Jeremy Corben's attitude to Israel/Palestine, But what is more likely to happen is that there'll be a spat of name-calling, anything to do with Jeremy Corbyn will be completely pushed out by regurgiatated accusations and diatribes, and the thread will be closed down. It always happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 06:40 PM

Well we can stop it happening. We do not have to respond to idiotic posts which accuse reasonable people of antisemitism or to posts from people who have a track record of being blind to any criticism of the Israeli regime. Let's give it a whirl!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 07:02 PM

I must say that I was impressed by Corbyn's appointment of John McDonnell as shadow chancellor. There's been so much talk about what a divisive figure he is, what an arch-leftie, etc., but Jeremy has stuck to his guns and shown a bit of spine. I like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 07:18 PM

Very tricky operation for Corbyn, cobbling a shadow cabinet together, with sulky opponents stalking off in a huff, and expectations about "political balance" and gender and geographical stuff.

I was surprised Stella Creasy didn't get pulled in.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 07:31 PM

I don't get that either. She's dynamite! Very sure-footed.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 07:43 PM

According to the New Statesman, Stella said before the result that she wanted to return to the back benches no matter who won the leadership. I can't help thinking that she will be a future Labour leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Sep 15 - 09:56 PM

I was in London during the last years of the Greater London Council, a popular and hugely effective local authority. Mrs Thatcher abolished the GLC notwithstanding huge public opposition (from more than 70 per cent of Londoners according to some polls). She did that because the council was under Labour control. Proper Labour control. The leader was Ken Livingstone and the deputy leader was a very young John McDonnell. McDonnell managed the GLC's colossal budget, never running a deficit, and never overspending.

Small diversion: Why Corbyn need not be unduly concerned about hostility from the dead-tree press. The newspaper circulations from which ten per cent was shed in the last year are typically around half of what they were a few years ago. And the trend will accelerate as plummeting readership hits advertising rates.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:04 AM

I was there at that time too, as an employee of ILEA. It was gargantuan but it was popular - and it worked. Far too left-wing for Maggie and her ideologues, of course, so she got rid of it, along with massive chunks of industry. Then she deregulated the banks, Blair followed, and the rest is history.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:10 AM

Interesting to hear that experience with the Glc being dismissed last night. "With respect running a budget of £3billion is not the same as a multi trillion budget for the uk". Granted. And how big a budget had Osborne previously be responsible for, or indeed most Chancellors?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:47 AM

Chancellors don't "run budgets." They have armies of advisors to do it for them once the one-liner big policy decisions have been delivered. The chancellor is just the front man.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:55 AM

Problem is, it's not just the press, the whole of the media are piling in.

Whenever the system comes under any sort of pressure they close ranks and the BBC are worse than any.
The media are only interested in fermenting confrontation, "make a story any way you can", they are not interested in allowing time for settling in, they've started already with the stupid hoo haa over "the lack of women in top jobs"......most of the ablest women deserted immediately after the election!

Voting with their feet because the democratic vote of the membership went against their ambitions.
Women can be just as grasping and self serving as men.
Jeremy should rely on the membership to back him and de-select all who brief against him. I heard two of his front bench "damn him with faint praise" this morning,

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:20 AM

The negative comment about self-serving was unnecessary. It is true that some of the highest-profile and most experienced women made themselves unavailable, Rachel Reeves, Stella Creasy, Yvette Cooper and Caroline Flint among them. As with all the male refuseniks, I think he's better off without them on the whole. I think he's made a pretty good fist of appointing a shadow team who will give him a run for his money on the more controversial aspects of his stated policies. And my feeling is that that's exactly what he wants. No Thatcher-style yes-men for him. A good start!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:21 AM

Dealing with the media was.always going to be a problem, and would still have.been even if they were all pro jeremy. This idea that policy should be developed with widespread consultation rather than by diktat is very sensible but totally incompatible with 24 hour rolling.news which has to find things to fill the airtime. Consequently the field is open for.any talking head to speculate as wildly.as.they think fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:34 AM

Having worked for a large American firm that said it liked to manage by consensus. In the end it did not we talked and talked and talked for hours until we had reached the descion the boss wanted in the first place even against our advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:56 AM

Maybe he'll be like that other great socialist Brian Clough. On disagreements with players, Cloughie said "We talk about it for 20 minutes and then we decide I was right." Or maybe he won't! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 08:13 AM

"I think he's made a pretty good fist of appointing a shadow team who will give him a run for his money on the more controversial aspects of his stated policies.
And my feeling is that that's exactly what he wants. No Thatcher-style yes-men for him. A good start!

.. now here's an opportunity to unbox a phrase from the dark damp dusty cupboard of political history under the stairs...

Now perhaps making a public comeback after almost 30 years.....


"The Dialectic Process"

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 08:31 AM

"Voting with their feet because the democratic vote of the membership went against their ambitions."
Misogynist nonsense.
Women are no more ambitious than men and the traditional view that their place is "on their back or at the kitchen sink" has kept the best of them out of politics altogether.
Parliament is notoriously a virtual boys club-the women who make it their a re dominated by the better off who are able to afford to pay someone else to carry out their 'wifely duties' - hence monsters like Thatcher, Widdecombe, and Bottomley (did you know that Virginia Bottomley is an anagram of 'I'm An Evil Tory Bigot).
The sooner that some sort of positive discrimination is enacted to allow women to take part in politics, the batter.
Gi'e us a break Ake, you really are in the Stoneage.
Those who walked away, did so because they were no more socialist than you are - nowt to do with ambition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:15 AM

The discussion has been rather one sided so far.
Here is a dissenting view from the editor of New Statesman, Jason Cowley.

"Labour lost the General Election principally because under Ed Miliband it had little economic credibility. It has even less now it has empowered McDonnell, hitherto one of the parliamentary party's most divisive and marginal figures.
This move, together with the sacking of Ivan Lewis, the only Jewish member of the old Shadow Cabinet — controversial because of the taint of anti-Semitism around some of Corbyn's associates — has enraged MPs.
And of course Corbyn has failed to appoint a woman to any of the most senior shadow portfolios. So here's what the 'new politics' looks like: white middle-aged men grabbing all the top jobs."

"As a serial backbench rebel, Corbyn has defied the party whip more than 500 times. At the age of 66, he has never held office and has never run anything beyond his own Islington North constituency office. Yet he is acclaimed as the new messiah of the Left."

"Corbyn has galvanised a couple of hundred thousand people who identify themselves as radicals, but what will the non-ideological voters in key Southern marginal seats — who so recently rejected Ed Miliband — make of this particular brand of hard, isolationist socialism? Not much, I would suggest."

"A leader who has spent his whole career single-mindedly rebelling against his own party should not expect any loyalty in return, especially with policies as uncompromising as his.
In the months ahead, Jeremy Corbyn will wear his mandate like protective armour — and he will need it, because the knives are out.
Labour is a party divided, its MPs at odds with its members. We are at the beginning of a long civil war."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3234590/JASON-COWLEY-Victory-Cult-Corbyn-No-start-long-brutal-civil-war.html

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:17 AM

You could have written that yourself, Keith. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:24 AM

Actually on closer inspection I don't think this thread has been that one-sided. Start from the top; you'll find a fair bit of demurring, and a little bit of smearing to boot (white poppy, anyone?) Perhaps it's because Corbyn now has an extremely important job to do and we need to cut him some slack until the dust settles. But carry on demurring, Keith. Grist to the mill. But try to make it a bit more sensible than chucking quotes at us from far-right op-edders in the New Statesman, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:48 AM

The white poppy thing was raised here by me, but only because it was raised as an issue within Labour, as it was again last night.

You could have written that yourself, Keith.

No it could not, because I have no interest in the party or its leadership, but this shambolic leadership process has been fascinating to follow.
It is silly to dismiss Cowley as "far-right."
He and his magazine are strongly sympathetic to Labour and the left.

You seem to think that if you apply a label to someone, or accuse them of something, you do not have to address what they actually say.
It is your way of hiding from awkward issues.

Actually on closer inspection I don't think this thread has been that one-sided.

The last couple of pages have been very one sided.
There are only three!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:57 AM

I stopped voting for labour in the Blair years personally thought he was a self serving con artist, what he did for students and his puppy dog eyes for Bush. I could see nothing of value for me in the last labour opposition. There is now an opportunity for labour to do some real opposition through JC.
My question is who is the next labour leader as I believe before the next election JC will retire with his protege in command.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 11:05 AM

Too early to answer that, guest. We are only on day four, after all! But I would hope that someone in the shadow cabinet develops to that standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 11:05 AM

The inescapable reality is JC will be around 70 come the next general election...

He's a fit bloke - cyclist & veggie.. but he will have serious considerations and decisions to make nearing 2020........

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 11:09 AM

Jason Cowley hasn't been near the pace in recent months and I'm surprised that he's giving oxygen to the anti-semitism theme. (Maybe that's his appeal to Keith?) As Cowley knows well, Ivan Lewis did not give any commitment to the Northern Ireland brief beyond the present Stormont crisis. Moreover there was obviously value in keeping Vernon Coaker on board from Yvette's campaign team, and Coaker is of course closely familiar with the complexities of Northern Ireland's politics.

I wouldn't be too harsh on some of those who have declined to serve. It would surely have been impossible for Yvette Cooper, for instance, to stay in the shadow cabinet in view of her openly declared hostility to the Corbyn-McDonnell economics agenda. I'd say she's behaved rather more honourably than Andy Burnham, whose opportunist flip-flopping has been utterly risible.

Stella Creasy, whom Steve listed among the women deserters, made it clear from the outset (as Steve noted earlier) that she intended to stay on the back benches. She is indeed extremely capable, Steve, but Jezza's success makes it much more likely that the baton will be passed to someone closer to his outlook. Lisa Nandy is obviously a star in the making (as well as contributing to ethnic diversity). Equally Catherine West from the new intake is likely to make a big impression fairly quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 11:16 AM

What's the problem with white poppies? They were introduced between the world wars by the Peace Pledge Union, to commemorate civilians and British military personnel alike who lost their lives in war. That seems reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 12:14 PM

I think the deserters did so because they thought a Labour Party with Jeremy at the helm would be unelectable. They hope to unseat Jeremy very quickly and have a bash at defeating the unpopular Cameron.
Watch this space!

This points to the fact that these people, male and female care more about their own careers than seeing socialist policies being seriously discussed and advanced.

I have said right from the start that the important thing was to see Jeremy elected with a reasonable mandate from the Party members, if the deserters don't like the democratic will of the membership they should leave and join the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Frodraff
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 02:08 PM

Interesting that the folkies in particular have forgotten how ineffective protest movements are which is were JC is in course of taking the Labour Party. We were all there in the heady days of the 1960s singing about how wonderful it was that the times were achanging. Unfortunately the times didn't change and the mayhem in the world over my adult life time has been a catalogue of death and destruction which doesn't look likely to change anytime soon. I don't think the wimperings and tokenism of the likes of Jeremy Corbyn with his beard, bike and falafell has any chance of resolving the human tendency to kill people who don't agree with them.

Just trying to say 'lets get real ey'.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 02:14 PM

You have no interest in this strange series of events, Keith? I think you are being unjust to yourself. Lack of curiosity about what goes on around us is a pretty dispriting quality. There are people who actually do seem to lack any kind of curiosity, and I find that pretty sad. I don't think you are one of those.
..........

Michelle Hanson's column in the Guardian is one of the few reasons to still buy that rather unpleasant broadsheet (which is still streets bbetter than the others), and today's one I found very cheering in the midst of all the smart-arsed sneers around it at Jeremy Corbyn's election. here is a link

And here is a taster:I was 73 on Sunday, and I don't usually like birthdays. They remind me that I am getting closer to death, and the world is getting closer to hell in its handcart, but this birthday was different. I woke in a cheery mood, because Jeremy Corbyn had just won the Labour leadership. Hooray! Marvellous. At last a change from all the mealy-mouthed, middle-of-the-road, jargon-spouting, scaredy-cat wets, who have led us into a money-worshipping, war-mongering, planet-wrecking pit of inequality, apathy and despair. Now here was a sliver of hope that we may get out of it. And the sun was shining. Fabulous.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 03:19 PM

There is nothing at all wrong with white poppies. There may well be something wrong with the rather gratuitous and mean-spirited way that it was raised in this thread in response to my light-hearted comment about Jeremy and his refreshing lack of tie. For thirty years I've only ever worn a tie at funerals or similar, and even then only under duress. I also sport a beard not dissimilar to his. I draw the line at vegetarianism, however. And chin up, Frodraff. You just never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 03:27 PM

oh dear... the national anthem.. that's probably already got some blustering enraged old tories demanding that
JC be sent packing back to Russia...


This week is great.. just like being 21 back in the early 80s again..

.. when us young students & punkrockers could recognise the definite differences between labour and tories.....

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 04:17 PM

The Queen doesn't sing the National Anthem either. How can any true monarchist object to others following her example?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 04:42 PM

i bet the queen would sing my song about Jeremy, if she knew it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:15 PM

So far I like the cut of Corbyn's jib. My only worry about McDonnell is the IRA - which appears to be on the hunt again - Gosh, who would have suspected a bunch of terrorists to lie about disbanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 05:17 PM

Who is elected by the Party faithful and the many who wish to do the party harm is completely meaningless - it signifies nothing. In 2020 Labour have to fight a General Election campaign and convince the electorate of this country to vote for it. Taking past Labour administration "fuck ups" into account and the 1970s brand of "socialism" that Corbyn is peddling backed by the promise of Trades Union meddling with the democratic will of the British people - the Labour Party is on a loser - the British electorate did not buy it in 1979, they did not buy it in 2015 and it will not buy it in 2020. Trouble is most of you eejits are living in the past and thankfully those days will not return.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:15 PM

I respect your opinion, so we will have to differ, T. Only the Tory press is going on about returning to the 1970s. We are in a different age and Corbyn understands that as well as anyone. But what he does say is that there were ideas that have always been part of Labour thinking, from its foundation and,yes, in the 1970s as well, that the party needs to decide how to apply to the modern world. You may not agree of course, but it is lazy journalism just to claim this is going back to the 1970s

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:15 PM

The trade unions are the British people. I'm a true-born Brit and have never not been a trade unionist (even in retirement). The "democratic will" (whatever that is) of the British people apropos of the right to strike has never been specifically tested to my recollection. So, basically, you're making it up as you go along, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:46 PM

Back to the 1970s? With this Trade Union Bill the government is effectively trying to get back to the start of the last century.

Requiring pickets names to be supplied to the authorities, and names of "leaders", regulating what people can wear or say, requiring notice of any demonstration, facilitating the importation of strikebreakers, making it harder for unions to support political parties, insisting on balloting arrangements designed to make industrial action virtually impossible, and continuing to deny workplace or online voting.

MP David Davis described these proposals as being on the same level as the anti-union laws in Spain under Franco - and he is a Tory.

Any decent person ought to oppose this, regardless of their politics. And they should recognise a moral imperative to find a union appropriate for their job, if they aren't already a member, and join it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 06:51 PM

I heartily agree with all that. I note that the stringent ballot conditions being imposed on unions would, had they been imposed similarly in the last general election, have left Cameron lamentably short of a mandate. He wouldn't even have come close. Hypocrisy reigns supreme, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:44 PM

National Anthem anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 07:52 PM

"Taking past Labour administration "fuck ups" into account a"
Which measure small to the closure of virtually all our manufacturing industries, the string of recessions undergone since the seventies, the banking crises, the rising unemployment to now nearly two million, the now commonplace zero security of tenure, the loss of any say in the workplace for any worker, the increasing homelessness created by Thatcher's 'right to buy' con, the North - South divide, the ongoing oil wars ...... and the rapidly expanding gap between the haves and have nots in Britain today - Labour has to 'win back' what exactly?
The British people regard all politics and politicians with contempt and mistrust - they all have to win the confidence of the electorate, and conservatism (or Conservatism) - small or large "C" - isn't going to do that - only radical change - not moving the deckchairs about yet again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 09:26 PM

God Save the Queen? Whoever sings that anyway? How many times have you been in a oublic event where it gers played and people actually sung it? Even at football internationals most of the footballers don't sing it.

Singing God Save the Queen is UnBritish. It's the kind of thing foreigners do.

And the Queen herself never sings it, so monarchists should surely follow her example.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 01:35 AM

It is always sung at Remembrance events and services such as yesterday's.

Kevin,
You have no interest in this strange series of events, Keith?
I did say I was fascinated by it.
I meant that I am not involved in the debate, having no interest in party politics.

Steve,
gratuitous and mean-spirited way that it was raised in this thread

You raised the issue of tie wearing at remembrance, but the party was talking about poppies and has done again since.
So, it was neither "gratuitous" nor "mean-spirited" but entirely relevant and germaine to the debate Steve.

Anyway he does wear a tie in Parliament and did at the service yesterday, but the issue of the poppy remains unresolved.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 02:33 AM

another Corbyn song - not by me. by a real folksinger.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYwGwWAM854&feature=youtu.be

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 02:49 AM

"The trade unions are the British people."

Bloody ridiculous statement - Oh no they are NOT not by a long shot.

On the subject of our national anthem Kevin:

" the Queen herself never sings it"

Of course the reigning Monarch doesn't sing it you prat - what words would she sing to it? It is sung to her and about her. Of the list of top twenty countries in this world who are regarded as being the most advanced, the most prosperous, where there exists respect for law and order and human rights you'd be amazed at the number that have monarchs as their Heads of State.

Voting and stringent ballot conditions? UNITE is one of the largest Trades Unions in the country it's leader seeks to dictate to the democratically elected government of the United Kingdom. Turn out in our last General Election was something like 65% - The said Trades Union Leader with a Union Membership numbering some 1.5 million was "elected" by just over 100,000 union members who could be arsed to vote..

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:10 AM

Corbyn Trouser Press is an absolute disgrace and was voted in by 250k ignorant idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:17 AM

Good morning boko!

don't know if you or others are concerned about jeremy corbyn not singing yesterday. the bbc thought they would find nicholas soames - the grandson of winston churchill (and what else exactly?) - and ask him what he thought. amazingly, he was offended.
when the tories anti-trade union bill goes through or if they manage to scrap the human rights bill, will they come back to nick for a quote. knowing his father was a supporter of the first and an author of the second then nicholas is bound to be outraged again.

take it easy on the insults eh? doesn't look good.....

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:49 AM

"Oh no they are NOT not by a long shot."
They are they only voice the working man has in the running of their own lives - The Trades Unions and the Post War Labour Government began to give the people what had been promised - "A land fit for heroes to live in" - decent social housing, a national health service, a fall-back benefit scheme for the unemployed, security of tenure at work....." - all opposed by Conservative Governments and eventually undermined and destroyed by Conservative and conservative-leaning principles.
Terribus is now going to tell us that working people are not to be trusted to run their own affairs - he has already told us that if the politicians fail to create conditions of high employment, we should get on our bikes and follow the work - ie - become an itinerant Labour force - which is a pretty fair summing-up of how we are regarded by him and his.
Voting for these people at election time now is a totally meaningless exercise - they promise the earth and do nothing when they are elected - and so ad infinitum.
The greatest example of how they work was the 'Labour Isn't Working' slogan in 1978 - the Toties won and shoved the unemployment figures up over a million - the highest since the thirties (now they have nearly got it up to two million - almost on par with The Depression and we no longer have security of any form at work and benefits are at survival level - just)
One of the great legacies of the 'patriotic' Thatcher years was the destruction of British industries - now we are totally reliant on buying from abroad - some ******* patriotism. eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 03:50 AM

A lot of bullshit being written here, what does it matter who does or doesn't SING the NA?   Some people including me CAN'T sing.

The NA is simply a piece of political doggerel which contains verses referring to "crushing rebellious Scots"....I wouldn't sing it for that reason alone.
Many people are Republican, or anti monarchy, this is a valid view to hold, not illegal in any way and some members of all Parties probably hold this view.

I suppose we can stagger on for another decade absorbing immigrants, watching society and the world disintegrate around us, but why wait?

Socialism, although presently unpopular with the population (due to efficient work by the stinking media)and difficult to promote amongst a pampered middle class, is the only means of survival in the long term....and I mean 50 years.
All arguments to the contrary do not take into account the unsustainability of the capitalist system.

Small c conservatives have nothing to fear from a socialist system, as personal freedom to exploit others, the environment and society will be severely curtailed.....as will the "power" of the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 04:22 AM

McGrath said:

Any decent person...should recognise a moral imperative to find a union...and join it.

It's very good of you to judge that the vast majority of the British workforce (myself included) are not decent people...

Thanks for that most tolerant sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:12 AM

I think I agree with ED ...sorry Ed :0)

I've never been a member of a Union either, partly because when I was young my employers banned union members.   Partly because I ultimately saw them as unwieldy monoliths which were more concerned with their own power base, than the conditions of workers.
I also felt that they were part of the "we can fix capitalism" movement which we still see on these pages.

We need to look beyond partisan Unions and appeal directly to the people....it will take time and patience, but it can be done.
It has to be done.
At least the socialist message is back on the agenda, no one can eradicate the word again.......not even a New Labour Messiah like David Milliband. Keep your eyes on him Jeremy.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:13 AM

How come our national anthem is still a dirge to the honour of the Saxe-Coburgs? Time for a new one. Thats one thing, but at Remebrance services they should sing No Mans Land. That is a much more appropriate way to homour the fallen.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:32 AM

Unions are the only defence the worker has against oppression by management and capital. McGrath is right. But Ake's post before that made more sense than anything else I've ever read from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:38 AM

I wouldn't sing our national anthem, hate the bloody thing, both the tune and the sentiments. Sod that.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:39 AM

Let's be clear I'm not a Labour supporter but it seems to me that Corbyn can't win here re the media. He'll get slammed whatever. Just several days ago the issue was him being the hypocrite for swearing an oath to the monarch when everyone knows he is a republican. Of course to be accepted on to the Privy Council you need to swear said oath just as you need to swear an oath to the monarch when becoming an MP. Now he is slammed for not singing the monarchist anthem when everyone knows he is a republican. Surely it is a personal choice as to whether you sing, lipsync or stand in quiet respect? If people are bullied into singing the anthem then the anthem is surely reduced - as singing it is not a sign of respect etc but just something that you must conform to doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:41 AM

Lewis Hamilton does not "do" the NA either; he just waves to the crowd,fidgets with his hair, wiggles about and generally ignores what MIGHT be deemed as correct and/or patriotic behaviour.But then ,he does not live in Britain, does he ?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:58 AM

Corbyn did exactly what I would have done in those circumstances. Namely, to stand out of respect for the dead of the Battle of Britain, and of course the dead of every other war in history, but to remain silent out of contempt for what must surely be the dreariest and most sycophantic national anthem in history.

The last time the national anthem was played in my presence was at a classical music concert in the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Hall. It used to be a very posh venue, where only the moneyed classes were allowed to gather.

Naturally, I remained seated throughout, hoping that some retired colonel or other would upbraid me for my 'damned impertinence'. No such luck.

I keep meaning to compliment the guy who turns out for these concerts wearing a t shirt that says "Nashville. Home of Country Music'.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 05:59 AM

Landslide eh?

Not a good metaphor. But maybe accurate. Time will tell, I can wait.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:10 AM

I'm rushing to Kevin's defence here. Trade unions have been the only corrective to the more vicious workplace tendencies (of which there are many) of capitalism. If you work in any industry or other enterprise in which, down the decades, trade unions have fought for better pay and conditions and protected the interests of the workers in other ways, you need to remember that they have done it for you whether you paid your dues or not. The reason unions can't do these things very well any more is because there have been serial moves to shackle them more and more by right-wing governments. Workplace security has been deliberately made a thing of the past, with no guaranteed working hours, no security of tenure, no consideration given to work-life balance, the minimum wage becoming de rigeur with no means of negotiating it up and semi-permanent caps on pay rises. You all know people who have suffered under the rules of this brave new world, don't you. Unless you know only bankers and boardroom men, of course.

A couple of other things, concerning union ballots and leadership elections. I've been a member of the NUT for forty years, many of which I spent as a school representative, helping to train new reps and serving on local and London NUT committees. In that time I successfully represented people at tribunals who had been threatened with disciplinary action, campaigned against asbestos in schools, helped to fight workplace bullying of the worst kind in one particular school and fought for compensation for a teacher involved in an accident. Yes I also got involved in industrial action fighting against compulsory redeployment and education cuts, as well as threats to pay and pensions. Some you wins and some you loses. Not once did I ever go on strike and receive strike pay from the Union. We were called out in the mid 80s on one occasion when my wife was at home with our two little kids and striking was just about the hardest thing to do. Those people who denigrate strikers as a kneejerk at every turn - well just think what state working people would be in today without workers taking action. Anyone remember Bradley Hardacre?

Most people who join unions will never strike. Unions are about looking after members, not itching to go on strike. Looking after members is the backbone of union work and is in the background. It doesn't really get people fired emotionally, certainly not enough to care much who the leader is. So 15% turnout for the Unite election. So what? That's none of your business. Any union member who doesn't like it can simply walk away. Unite membership was on the rise last time I heard. As for strike ballots, legislation makes it as difficult and expensive as possible. Ballot papers have to be posted out then posted back. We all get so much bloody junk mail that the government hopes we'll think the brown envelope is just more of that. Online ballots would see turnout rocket, but that is not what the government wants, is it. Why would they let us remove one of the sticks they can beat us with?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:43 AM

Well said Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:36 AM

I didn't say that people who aren't members of unions aren't dedent people, "Guest Ed". I said that being decent people they ought to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:21 AM

When I was a child and young adult, we were taught that it was the accepted norm that singing the National Anthem or standing in silence were both equally respectful, and equally acceptable.

Without Trade Unions, workers wouldn't have paid holidays, pension schemes, and many, many other beneficial employment terms which we take for granted nowadays. It makes me want to vomit when I hear people slagging off the Unions, whilst cheerfully benefitting from the improvements in workers' rights fought for by the Unions.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM

"Corbyn Trouser Press is an absolute disgrace and was voted in by 250k ignorant idiots."

Bonz - if we can presume you have no intention of ever voting labour

either...

a] you can relish the prospect that Corbyn will destroy the Labour party and render them permanently unelectable ?

or...

b] quiver in pants filling fear that socialism may reignite as a positive force for progressive social fairness and change ?

or...

c] take a leap into the unknowable uncertain future that will gradually become our shared reality and destiny ?

or...

d] sit down, have a quiet mug of tea, unwind, clear your mind of the burden of negativity,
visualise yourself in bed with Margaret Thatcher, grab a handfull of tissues,
and have another sad furtive.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 09:49 AM

Aside from everything, not joining the appropriate union is a bit like not bothering to ensure your house. Any of us can find something blows up, such as bullying in the workplace, where being in a union is really handy. You aren't on your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 10:59 AM

Can it be true that Corbyn's team have confirmed that he will in future sing "God Save the Queen"? That would be a dreadful u-turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 11:30 AM

"b] quiver in pants filling fear that socialism may reignite as a positive force for progressive social fairness and change ?"

You've got it totally wrong there PFR what we need to be fighting for is political and economic change.....Social change "progressive" or otherwise.....what a fucking meaningless word! will be decided issue by issue, decided by what is in the long term interests of society, not what is "progressive" flavour of the month.
I see a fairly conservative society emerging from a socialist political system.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 11:39 AM

"Corbyn Team"?....you must be joking, they're all a shower of backstabbers except O' Donnell.

Benn, Faulkner, Eagle, Burnham!etc Do you not think every one of them will be glad to see the back of him?
and waiting in the wings the hideous Cooper, Hunt....I feel too sick to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:12 PM

Singing God Save the Queen is surely blasphemous if the singer doesn't believe in God. So I imagine if he does sing it, he'll be attacked for that. Can't win, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:23 PM

I would sing God Save the Queen quite happily except for three things: I don't believe in God; I don't believe in the Queen; and, even if I'm wrong and there really is a God, I wouldn't want him to save her from anything I can think of.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:24 PM

I'm rather reminded of the sketch in Beyond the Fringe where a serviceman is told to go off and die for his country "We want you to make a futile gesture. It will raise the whole tone of the war."

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:25 PM

"You've got it totally wrong there PFR "

Ake - that's ok - I was hurrying trying to remember the kind of sloganeering bollocks we read in Polytechnic Marxism made simple seminars 30 odd years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 12:36 PM

...as it is, like a lot of middle aged former young lefties,
The last 20 years of all the shite life has to thow at us
has rendered me rather, numb, defeated, and listless regarding politics....

All my old political theory books and pamphlets are by now probably well rotting and mildewed
in inacessibly boxes far in the back of the downstairs room nobody dares ever enter...

Felt far more alive in the clear cut left v right polarised politics of my student yesteryears..

Right now though.. there is a kind or reinvigorating 'hopeful' vibe in the air....

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:02 PM

I just watched Laura Kuenssberg on Newsnight haranguing Jeremy, and I mean haranguing, about whether he'd genuflect or not before the Queen at the Privy Council ceremony. You couldn't bloody make it up. We have neatly a million on zero-hours contracts, at least two million unemployed, the bloody Torjes keeping the bankers rich whilst fleecing the poor and shitting on trade unions, and refugees that we caused getting tear-gassed in Hungary, yet that's what was "seen as important" by the BBC. Dearie me. Were it not for the Proms and University Challenge I'd be demanding my bloody licence fee back.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 07:55 PM

Be fair Steve. There's also The Clangers on CBBC. I'm surprised they let that through though. Full of the kind of notions Jeremy Corbyn goes on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 08:56 PM

Ok, I suppose so, and we wouldn't want to lose Bruce Forsyth either, come to think of it. Damn.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 02:44 AM

JC is now employed as Leader of the opposition and therefore a privy councillor part of that job description says you kneel before the monarch and take an oath, I would think a large amount of the population knew that (especially a MP) as it has gone on for years. To not be prepared for the question get petulant and loose your cool is not very bright. JC to become an effective leader needs to relise he is always going to be pushed on these issues due to his history. A small number of the electorate voted for him to be labour party leader, this is one crucial battleground where if he wishes to get labour to be elected he needs to become smarter. At our local he did not impress a lot of older labour supporters by his attitude he has everything to play for and everything to loose but a small minority of the electorate thinking the have elected the messiah, does not make him into days media savvy culture the messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 02:46 AM

I bet that tiresome old git Forsyth would prostrate himself full-length before the Queen!

Just a thought, if we got rid of the Beeb, would we lose Sir Terry Wogan as well?

Do you know, getting rid of the Beeb is looking more attractive by the minute!

And we wouldn't have to endure Chris Evans on Top Gear either ...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 03:10 AM

Guest makes a good point. It is perfectly possible that JC wins on economics or at least ends up in a no-score draw with one set of economists lined up against another and the entire rest of the population bemused into boredom. And if he treads carefully he could do the same on defence.

But flummery is a real problem. White or red poppies, singing the anthem, kneeling before the queen and other such stuff is really difficult to handle as he either refuses to take part and is portrayed as obnoxious and uncaring, or he does take part and is portrayed as hypocritical. He seems to have opted for the third path, which is worst of all, namely saying he "fully take part" in such events in the future, guaranteeing even more attention will be focused on them and adding "insincere promises" to the potential charge list.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:29 AM

Steve Shaw. "I just watched Laura Kuenssberg". I quite agree but keep an eye on the hidden agenda. The establishment are crapping themselves at the thought that JC could win the 2020 election, or even that he might turn Labour into an effective opposition. Perish the thought, a leader who could run an effective campaign against anti-trade union legislation in the house of commons, and support the workers out on the streets.

Why is the establishment crapping itself? Because Jeremy Corbyn knows that they have lashings of untaxed loot stashed away in un-numbered accounts and Jeremy Corbyn might just claim some of it back.

The trouble is they haven't as yet got much to attack him on, so they dig up old and highly buryable news, and pretend that it's somehow relevant.

Jeremy Corbyn's a republican, so he didn't sing the National Anthem. Fucking big deal. Imagine the accusations of hypocrisy if he had sung it.

Jeremy Corbyn has to kiss the queen's hand in order to become a privy councilor. So what? Did he invent the royal protocol? Is he in any position to change it? I think not.

Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott once had a relationship. Wow. Now that is news. How far back does that go, and of what relevance is it today?

Jeremy Corbyn was once heard to say that he'd like to abolish the British army. So would I. It doesn't mean either of us would do it this side of the abolition of war.

Jeremy Corbyn has been in the job for less than a week. In that time he has had to put up with more personal abuse and sniggering and washing of linen that isn't even dirty, than any other newly appointed political leader I can recall. Not since the appointment of Michael Foot at any rate.

Enough already. If this is what happens when someone tries to undertake a modest reform of capitalism, small wonder that people sometimes find themselves forced to take to the barricades.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 06:55 AM

And we wouldn't have to endure Chris Evans on Top Gear either ...

Well there is the option of not watching it. Most people don't...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM

I agree with all that, Fred. In general I quite like the more abrasive style of BBC grilling, but I thought the attention that Laura was giving to that trivial matter, rather than the substance of his policies, was out of all proportion, not to say highly irritating in the most tabloid possible regard. I wonder who told her to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:53 AM

Steve. Probably some bigwig at the BBC who thinks the establishment will get slaughtered in their beds if Corbyn becomes Prime Minister.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 10:38 AM

the BBC are far more under threat from this tory Govt..

so we can expect more of an establishment arse licking tendency from some quarters of the BBC Hierarchy
as they try to distance themselves from previous accusations of left wing bias...???...

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 07:00 PM

I don't think too many people knew about stuff like kneeling in front of the Queen. It really does seem a bit daft. Like something out of Monty Python. Perhaps they have to do a funny walk on the same occasion.

Daft is OK Morris Dancing is a bit daft, and I love it. But treating stuff like as anything other than trivial isn't daft, it's stupid. The same goes for the tosh about singing the National Anthem - standing n silence while it is played shows every bit as much respect as singing, as is demonstrated at just about every funeral I've ever been to. Is someone who doesn't sing The Lord's My Shepherd really less respectful to the dead person than the ones that do? Is a footballer who fails to sing the national anthem before an international letting down the country?

And this kind of crap gets the headlines while people are going through hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 08:23 PM

I'll not kneel before the Queen, nor sing God Save the Queen, but let no bugger try to stop me belting out if "How Great Thou Art" is on the funeral order of service. I simply can't help meself. Me wife and kids don't know whether to cringe or belly-laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 15 - 09:49 PM

Precisely. For most of us on the Mudcat - apart maybe from some who aren't actually here because of the music, and never poke their nose above the Great Divide - singing is a pleasure not a penance (even if it might be a penance listening to us in some cases). I'd find it desperately hard not to sing just about anything in a crowd of people singing. That might even include God Save the Queen, though I can't ever remember being in a situation where people were actually singing it, and I've never sung it in my life that I remember.

But I can easily see that on a solemn occasion some people see it as a greater sign of respect to be silent. Silence can indeed be very much a mark of respect - and it's very often used that way in public occasions, such as Remembrance Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 03:42 AM

According to his mate, he always sings the NA, but on this occasion he was just overcome by emotion.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 04:42 AM

It was a totally inappropriate song to sing at that event. Ok, so most people will not go with my suggestion of No Mans Land, but surely Abide with me, or The Day Thou Gavest would be a fitting tribute, whilst remaining politically neutral.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 05:58 AM

Dunno really. God is a highly political issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 06:23 AM

Hilarious but serious piece in the Independent today from Mark Steel: "Jeremy Corbyn won't stop until everyone in Britain is offended"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-wont-stop-until-everyone-in-britain-is-offended-10506322.

(though you may not find it funny if you're a bitter Tory or Rupert Murdoch)

Apologies for being unable, due to sheer thickness, to do links.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 07:16 AM

Mark Steel in The Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 08:58 AM

Cheers. *Blush*

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 12:59 PM

I gather in the USA they don't expect their Presidents to sing their national anthem at public events. They always seem to bring in some professional who can't sing to do it.

If they really wanted to respect the people who were in the armed forces during the wat they should have had something they'd have sung. Like "why are we waiting". Or maybe "Bless 'em all".

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 15 - 02:32 PM

You might think the NA was not appropriate, but it is the NA and it is always sung at acts of Remembrance.

Corbyn did not and does not object to it.
He is quoted as saying that he always sings it and always will, but he was overcome with emotion that time.

Would he cynically lie about it just because it would alienate large numbers of the electorate?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 01:16 AM

Some professionals do an okay job (though I don't care for this version - it is very slow - possibly due to reverberation of the space?). Over here, less formally, the crowd steps in - even if it isn't their own anthem!

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 03:53 AM

it isn't a National Anthem though is it Keith, it says nothing about the nation and its people, unless they define themselves by servility. It is a hymn of praise to the Saxe-Coburgs.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 04:24 AM

@Guest Dave.......written by a daughter of, I believe, Louis XIV of France in praise of the Bourbons! In GB it was initially a flop until some theatre audience picked up on it to honour King George(III? IV?)'s presence at the evening's performance.

Lynn

See the BBC docu on British Kings & Queens (part 4- Hannoverians, I think).

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 05:50 AM

It is the NA. The only one we have.

Independent today,
"A survey of 2,000 people found that Mr Corbyn's election as Labour leader has made one in five people who voted for his party at the May general election more likely to vote Conservative next time. Some 37 per cent of Labour voters say they are less likely to back the party at the next election.

The ORB findings will fuel the debate among Labour MPs after what many view as a poor performance by Mr Corbyn in his first week as leader. Critics are already plotting how to remove the veteran left-winger, with some saying they will move against him if Labour fails to win the London mayoral election next May."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-loses-a-fifth-of-labour-voters-with-critics-already-plotting-to-oust-leftwinger-10508584.html

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 06:08 AM

I don't think Jeremy "looks like a prime minister in waiting" either. But I still think he could be, and a damn good one at that. What after all, does any prime minister actually look like, based on recent history, since we assume that is what people imagine a prime minister in waiting is also supposed to look like:

* Dictatorial, or consensual?
* Better at soundbites or detail?
* Considered or opportunist?
* More interested in how a policy benefits the country, or how much it makes life awkward for the opposition?

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 07:44 AM

Critics already plotting to remove Corbyn? They've been doing this since the first hints he might be elected leader. And if they don't succeed they'll be doing what they can to make sure the party loses the next election if he's still there, in keeping with Tony Blair's unusually honest admission that he would sooner see a Tory victory in such circumstances.

Definitely an uphill struggle - but the chances are a lot better than the odds against him becoming leader. Bookies were giving 200 to one against, and it's only 8 to one against him winning the election in 2020. Worth a flutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 07:50 AM

Acme's post with a link to the Canadian crowd singing the US anthem when the mike with that screeching lady mercifully cut out showed how much better the crowd did it. The organisers should learn from it. It's a great tune, and in fact not hard to sing, if you aren't chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 09:58 AM

well.. I've been rather fond of this British anthem for getting on 40 years since...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFRg5pLD9EI

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 12:31 PM

Critics already plotting to remove Corbyn? They've been doing this since the first hints he might be elected leader.

If the poll was also right about voters switching to Tory, then the plotters are acting to save the party from electoral oblivion.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Sep 15 - 01:31 PM

No they're not. They're looking to save their own skins at the next election. That's the difference between Corbyn and most of the other MPs. He's far more interested in principles and in making this world a better place, than in hanging on to his job. I know Corbyn's approach is not how politics is supposed to works but just now and again principles and courage win through.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 01:01 AM

No they're not. They're looking to save their own skins at the next election.

Yes exactly.
They fear electoral oblivion under Corbyn.
Saving their skins equates to saving the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 03:38 AM

I think that is the difference, Keith. The on-going argument is the balance between principle and electability. New Labour says electability is more important, because without it you can't put your principles into action. Both don't be misled: both are vital.

Even-newer Labour (not to be confused with Old Labour!) takes the opposite stance: The principles are more important and with the right ones you can persuade people to elect you. Both don't be misled: both are vital.

So Fred is right. A lot of the MPs seem to be working on the idea that if their stance is close enough to the tories then they will be elected every other time or so. But they fear that if their stance is too far away they will never be elected, either because the stance itself is unelectable or they are too strongly linked to the old style a new, more 'left' candidate will selected as a candidate instead of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 05:40 AM

I don't doubt that Keith is correct and that many Labour supporters will vote for other Parties and self interest, it will be in the financial interests of many people to go with the status quo.

The important point is that the present membership of the Parliamentary Labour Party do not constitute a proper opposition, and if we are to even call ourselves a democracy, we must have a real political alternative.

Mr Corbyn has a proper mandate from Labour Party members and will be difficult to dislodge by coup, therefore a split Party seems inevitable.
This would also be the best route for real socialists, as a smaller more focused Labour Party could align with others on the left to gain a powerful voice in British politics.

To make this possible we must work hard to ensure that Proportional Representation is adopted.

Any arguments on whether Mr Corbyn can win General Elections and institute wholesale nationalisation etc are simply diversions from the real job that socialists face.....educating an electorate who have no understanding of reality concerning the environment and how we can live within it sustainably.

There is really no CHOICE available, but that fact will be obscured by those who value this system till the last moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn Landslide
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Sep 15 - 01:48 PM

Saw Blair's best buddy Lord Faulkner being questioned on his role as Shadow Justice Minister, the guy has nothing in common with his leader, supports only one of Corbyn's core policies and can only have taken the job as a "spoiler"

Jeremy was wrong to construct an "inclusive" cabinet, they will do for him, and compromise will lose him support among the Party members.

Better to stick to his principles and let the Blairites go, de-select them if necessary, in doing so he will retain support of the Party and a voice for socialism at the top table.

It will take time to re-educate the young folks, but it will be a start and as crisis follows crisis, socialism will begin to sound quite palatable.